Best Pitcher in the last 40 years

[VermontDem2004]

I vote other (Randy Johnson)

[VelmaD]

1. That was difficult

My heart wanted to vote for Nolan Ryan because I got to watch him end his career with the Texas Rangers and am a huge fan. But my mother would kill me if I didn't vote for Sandy Koufax. :-)

[pmbryant]

2. Yeah, I voted for Maddux

I know I was arguing for Clemens in the other thread, but it's close enough that I let my biases sway my vote. Maddux is my favorite player and Clemens is one of my least favorite.

It's probably really a tossup between Clemens, Maddux, and Seaver.

Gibson and Koufax are in the next tier.

Then Nolan Ryan and Carlton.

Palmer doesn't really belong on that list. RJ is probably above him.

And of course, Sidd Finch was the master! Too good for this company. ;-)

--Peter

[denverbill]

5. Looks like only you and I for Maddux.

I can't believe Koufax's support. True, he had a run of 4 seasons which has to be among the best in history, but he's 100 wins shy of Maddux and Clemens.

[pmbryant]

6. Retiring early gives a star a sort of mythical quality, I think

Since Koufax retired right at his peak ability, that's all that people remember, it seems. I'm not sure how else to explain it.

Maddux had a 4-year run (1992-1995) that was better than Koufax's 4-year run, but has added a much longer and more productive career outside of those 4 years.

If Maddux had retired after 1995, perhaps he would have that same mythical quality that Koufax has.

:shrug:

--Peter

[VelmaD]

8. Hate to say this but...

I think Maddux's cause is hurt by the fact that the Braves haven't won more in the post-season.

[pmbryant]

10. D'oh!!

You can't blame Maddux for that. He has generally pitched wonderfully in the post-season.

At least except for 1989 when he was with the Cubs and got absolutely lit up! I still have nightmares about that one. This is the first time the Cubs have been back to the NLCS since.

:-)

--Peter

[VelmaD]

12. I know you can't blame him personally...

which was why I hated to have to say it. I guess my point is that many people just remember that the Brave "choke" in the post-season and Maddux may get tarred with that same brush whether he deserves it or not.

[XNASA]

9. I disagree that Maddux 4 year run was better.

I love Maddux, but....

Koufax's stats for his last 4 years are astounding. He was 97-27, with 88 complete games. "88"!! Wow. And his ERA for those 4 years was under 2.00!!

I don't think that Maddux strung together 4 years like that.

[pmbryant]

14. Koufax vs Maddux by the stats

Maddux 1992-1995: Record 75-29, 37 complete games. But that doesn't tell us much, I think.

Record is too dependent on what the offense does. Complete games are too dependent on managerial style. The style back in the 60s was to let pitchers finish games. The modern style is to bring in closers and use other relief pitchers liberally. Maddux's 37 CG in those 4 years is actually quite a lot by modern standards. I think he led the league in innings pitched in all 4 of those years.

But I mainly base this on ERA relative to the league average: Maddux pitched 946.2 innings in those 4 years and allowed 208 earned runs. That's an ERA of 1.98. Koufax pitched 1192.2 innings from 1963-1966 and allowed 246 earned runs. That's an ERA of 1.86.

But when you factor in that Koufax pitched in a notoriously pitcher-friendly ballpark (Dodger Stadium) in a notoriously low-scoring era, while Maddux pitched in notorious hitter's parks (Wrigley and Fulton County Stadium) in a particularly high-scoring era, Maddux's ERA of 1.98 is significantly more impressive than Koufax's 1.86. (Both are spectacular, of course!)

Koufax had more innings, of course, which works in his favor. But that was mainly due to managerial style, so I don't count it as heavily. But however you weight those extra innings, a good case can be made that Maddux's 4-year run was just as good as Koufax's, and possibly even better.

At least that's my take.

--Peter

[chiburb]

35. PMB, that was a wonderful post!

League Average, Ball Park Effect, Historical Perspective re innings...
A Sabremetrician perhaps?
An early reader of Bill James?

So how DO you know that these things count?

[pmbryant]

36. Found me out

Been reading Bill James since the 1980s. Amateur sabermetrician, at least for pitching stats, especially those involving my favorite player, Greg Maddux.

:-)

--Peter

[chiburb]

42. Aha! I thought I recognized...

A fellow James afficianado...
I've also been reading him since the '80s, though I'll have to check my early, pulp copies of the Abstract for the years. Is it possible they go back to the late '70s?
I hate math, and couldn't follow his formulae to save my soul. However, his commentary was fascinating and his points well made.
I'm kinda hoping for a Red Sox victory over the Yanks because of James and Epstein...

On edit: I also voted for Maddux...

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. oh my god

You two are amazing.

Longevity doesn't mean shit, or else Hank Aaron would be universally regarded as a better player than Babe Ruth.

Of course, that's not the case.

Koufax is the greatest pitcher of all time. But I'm sure Sachel Page would have something to say about that.

[VermontDem2004]

13. Hank Aaron is a better player then Babe Ruth if you ask me

Longevity doesn't mean anything imo, I think Terrell Davis was one of the greatest running backs ever even though he only had 4 injury-free years. But you compare TD's first 4 years too any running backs best 4 years and Terrell Davis is still on top.

[THUNDER HANDS]

16. so?

Babe Ruth MADE baseball. Not only that, he did it during the Great Depression - which means he SAVED baseball.

Hank Aaron never hit more than, what, 40 hr a year? He was just amazingly consistent.

Certainly, that counts for something, but not when comparing him to Ruth.

[VermontDem2004]

18. He hit 40 and more home runs 8 times in his career

But he also had high batting averages throughout his career. He also played during the 50's and 60's when the overall talent was better. I agree Ruth saved baseball but he is not better then Hank Aaron.

[pmbryant]

20. It is so hard to compare people across eras like that

Blacks weren't allowed to play in the major leagues when Ruth played, so the competition level wasn't as high as when Aaron was playing. But Ruth truly revolutionized baseball with his style of play. The same can't be said of Aaron.

Both wonderful players and extremely important to this history of baseball.

So hard to compare them!

Kind of like it's hard to compare Koufax (and other old-time pitchers) versus modern pitchers due to the dramatic changes in managerial style and the use of relief pitchers over time.

:shrug:

--Peter

[VermontDem2004]

21. I agree

[beanball]

37. The best

Babe Ruth was a great slugger,but there is more to baseball than slugging,Aaron was a better allround player,his speed was superior to the Babe,his defense in the outfield was much better and he had to put up with all that racist bullshit america is noted for.

[pmbryant]

17. This isn't based on longevity

This is based on the number of great seasons a pitcher has put together. Maddux and Clemens have had more spectacular seasons than Koufax did.

Even if you take just the best 4 years of each of these guys, I think Maddux and Clemens both have good cases of being just as good as Koufax, or even better.

And of course, if you take the best 6 years, best 7 years, best 8 years, etc, Maddux and Clemens beat Koufax handily.

:-)

--Peter

[THUNDER HANDS]

19. if you have one game to win

Are you giving the ball to the 85-mph tossing Greg Maddox, the hot-tempered Roger Clemens, or the master assasin, Sandy Koufax?

One game to win. THAT determines who the best pitcher is.

I'd take Koufax any day.

But, even if you want to look at just great seasons, Dwight Gooden's 1985 rookie season is probably the best pitching year anyone's seen in the past 20 seasons.

[pmbryant]

22. I'd go with Pedro Martinez

Or maybe Mark Prior.

At least in 2003.

;-)

--Peter

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. Pedro or Sandy Koufax

[GumboYaYa]

23. No way. For just one game

Gibson is the man. He was intimidating like no other pitcher I have ever seen. I admit I have not seen much footage of Koufax pitching, so my opinion may change if I saw more of Koufax. Gibson is the consumate big game pitcher. All you have to do is look at his amazing success in the World Series.

[THUNDER HANDS]

27. true

Gibson was a beast.

[VermontDem2004]

24. I don't know

I seen Kerry Wood in his rookie season and looked amazing, didn't he set or brake the record at that time for most strikeouts in a game?

[pmbryant]

28. He tied the record with 20Ks against the Astros

Roger Clemens also owns that record. Clemens did the 20K thing twice, I believe.

I attended Wood's next game at Wrigley after the 20K game in 1998 and the crowd was truly electric. He struck out like 13 in 7+ innings before he was lifted and the Cubs beat the Braves.

:-)

--Peter

[denverbill]

43. If longevity doesn't mean anything, why not vote Kenny Rogers best?

Hell he threw one perfect game more than Clemens, Koufax, or Maddux has. Why not pick Kenny's one great game?

If you wanna pick the best pitching year over the last 40 years, ok. If you wanna pick the best 4 year period, ok. But I thought we were talking about the most dominant pitcher of the whole time period, and that includes not only a few years worth of stats but the entire career.

[rstarobi]

3. Peak value or career?

If we're talking peak, it's a tough call, but I'd have to go with Koufax. As a Mets fan, I hate to say it, but I think Roger slightly edges out Seaver and Maddux for career value, though.

[XNASA]

4. Sandy Koufax

I'm a little too young to remember much about Koufax when he was playing. I was just a little shaver at the time.

But I've always been awed by his stats. Lot's of people think that he retired too young, but he played 11 years in the show. Three times he pitched over 300 innings in a season. Unheard of now.

In '63 he won the Cy Young, NL MVP and World Series MVP.

A couple of years ago, I watched an old rerun on ESPN Classic of an entire game that Koufax pitched in the WS. Unbelievable. Simply amazing. Batters were literally standing at the plate, shaking their heads.

I vote for Koufax.

[noonwitch]

7. Mickey Lolich

Tiger lovers live in the past these days. I'd say Denny McClain, but he has proven himself to be such a scumbag over the years. I think he's still in prison for stealing the employee pensions at a company he owned, which probably entitles him to free membership in the GOP.

[GumboYaYa]

15. the correct answer is clearly Bob Gibson.

:)

In his World Series career Gibson had started nine games, winning seven and losing two (he won seven in a row). Every one of his victories was a complete game and he pitched eight in all. In 81 innings he allowed 55 hits, had a 1.89 ERA, struck out 92, and walked 17. His 92 strikeouts are even more amazing when compared to the Series lifetime record-holder, Whitey Ford, who whiffed 94 batters. Ford accumulated his 94 K’s in 12 more games and 63 more innings than Gibson.

Almost as incredible as his post-season performances is Gibson’s 1968 season. He won 22 games and completed 28 of his 34 starts. He led the NL with 268 strikeouts and 13 shutouts. Five of his shutouts came consecutively, and at one point he pitched 47 1/3 straight scoreless innings. Amazingly, the right-hander allowed just 38 earned runs all season, in more than 300 innings. He lost nine games, but in three of those he allowed just a single run. He won both the Cy Young and the MVP award.

[tekriter]

25. I have always worn #45 ...

whenever I have a choice of numbers on my softball jerseys.

[VermontDem2004]

29. How many pitches pitched 300 Strikeout's in 5 straight seasons?

I know The Big Unit is one.

[GumboYaYa]

30. Yeah, but look at RJs history in big games.

Until a few years ago he was ohfer in big games. It's winning the big ones that makes you great.

[pmbryant]

31. RJ must have won some big games

His team won the World Series a couple years ago. I suspect he played a large part in that victory.

And his teams have been in the playoffs many times. He no doubt won a lot of big games to get them there.

RJ is an all-time great, no matter what his post-season record may be. (For the record, I have no clue what that record actually is.)

--Peter

[GumboYaYa]

33. You are correct.

He did win a few games in the World Series victory. I think he had a save too, but my memory is failing me these days.

Until those victories Johnson had a history of getting shelled in big games. I agree that he is a great pitcher.

He's just no Bob Gibson :).

Can you tell I live in St. Louis and Vermontdem2004 lives in AZ?

[mac56]

32. Gibby, for sheer persistence and tenacity.

An iron man, for sure.

[VOX]

34. Koufax, without a doubt.

Look at his numbers beginning around 1961-62, after he made an adjustment to his delivery. There never was a more dominant pitcher in the game. With Drysdale also in the Dodger rotation, the team was utterly merciless.

If you have a moment, and access to any good baseball reference, take a look at what Koufax and Drysdale did to the Yankees in the 1963 WS. Absolutely awesome.

[JohnKleeb]

38. Who the fuck is Finch

[pmbryant]

39. The amazing Sidd Finch

April Fool's joke extraordinaire!

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/siddfinch.html

--Peter

[GOPisEvil]

40. The late, great, George Plimpton.

LOL - that was one great hoax! :D

[northzax]

41. mmm, I once had

these margaritas in Ensenada? obviously the best pitcher I've seen in the last two decades...