I have a very smart teenager who won't do ANY school work.

[July]

And I mean ANY.

He thinks high school is a waste of time, except for the hanging out with his pals part.

We made an agreement with him that he has to at least pass if he wants to keep hanging out.

Guess what? He just lost credit for his math course, and he's heading that way in chemistry. Another suspension for numerous cuts coming up.

Now we have to respond. I am expecting lots of sophistry and insults.

Anyone have any advice? ANYONE? PLEASE?

Let me add that I know he will land on his feet eventually. Unfortunately, I will be in a rubber room by then.

[TlalocW]

1. If he's old enough to make the decision to slough off school

He's old enough to get a job and start paying rent.

TlalocW

[July]

6. That option is on the table.

He wants to work, actually, to get money to party.

[TlalocW]

31. Then he needs to be paying

Rent, his share of utilities, food, etc. If you've helped him with a car, he needs to take over payments. If something breaks in his room, he needs to pay to have it fixed or replaced. If he has a pet, then he needs to be the one paying all the food for it.

I don't care how smart a teenager he is, no one is going to give him a good enough job to be able to do all that as well as party.

TlalocW

[realisticphish]

2. what grade is he?

ive had friends who slouch through 2 years of school, then realize "holy crap, i have to get into COLLEGE," and get the fact that a 2.0 GPA aint gonna fly.

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[kick-ass-bob]

5. Hey! That was me!!!

:)

[realisticphish]

7. you don't happen to be named "jacob" and be 18 years old

do you? :)

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[kick-ass-bob]

22. heh. no.

I went through it about 15 years ago...

[July]

28. So, wing me some words of wisdom to help me see that this, too,

shall pass. Or should I say, HE, too, shall pass?

What's the rest of your story? Can I hope?

[kick-ass-bob]

125. Oh - the rest of the story, yes.

I found something that interested me in HS and went with it. I turned around and brought my HS GPA up to around a 3.0 (from a low 2.something).
In college, I graduated with a near 4.0 in my field courses and went on to graduate school, and not in what I was interested in in HS, either.

I now work for very good pay, and also am running my own business with my wife on the side, in hopes of quitting working for someone else.

Is this encouraging enough?

[July]

11. Tenth.

His older brother did that turnaround and is in college now. At the moment, he tells me he's not interested in college. In principle, I'm fine with that, but I think he's passing up a great opportunity to enjoy himself with people his own age while learning about things that interest him from experts on those subjects -- all on our dime. But, hey, if he wants to jump into the working life, he'll find out what the rest of us did, only faster.

[realisticphish]

21. i wouldnt worry too much RIGHT NOW

though if you dont mind him not going to college, i guess its all good. but i encourage you to do everything you can to convince him otherwise. college kicks ass :)


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[July]

38. Well, I'd like him to go to college.

But I know so many smart people who didn't that I'm sure he can find a path in life with or without it.

I had a great time in college and grad school, and I learned a great deal, as well. I think he'll be missing a great opportunity if he doesn't go, but I can't make that decision for him.

[RazzleCat]

3. I got one too

So far the only thing that works (at all, and not always) is immediate consequences. So in my son's case, loss of phone and ability to hang and or talk with friends. Oh and moms a bitch, I will "pounce" on the phone and when its for him, say something along the lines of N. can't talk right now, he has been grounded from the phone and going out till X time. I will also answer the door and say the same.

[July]

15. I like the phone thing, although I'd have to take his cell phone away.

I like him to have one so I can reach him (and vice versa) when he's not home. But I may take possession.

I have restricted computer time and hanging out time, and will probably do more of that. My husband is afraid he'll run away, but I don't think he will. He'll just give us seventeen tons of grief.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

39. I don't have a teenager yet...

my child is only two, but this is the approach that I would take in this situation (i.e. taking away privileges).

I remember when I worked as a teacher that a lot of parents couldn't understand why their kids were doing so badly in school. They thought their kids were doing their homework in their rooms, but the kids actually were doing everything else but that. These kids had cell phones (some with all the latest features), telephone in their room (often with their own phone line), PC's with Internet access, TVs, VCRs, DVD players, stereo systems, gaming systems, and any number of other fancy distractions in their rooms. Those are all privileges that should be revoked if the child cannot maintain a reasonable GPA, or if they are a irresponsible and getting into trouble.

Frankly, I would never let my child have any of these type of things in his own room until he has demonstrated that he is responsible and can be trusted to do his school work and housework first. Even then, I still would never buy him a lot of the extravagant devices some parents buy for their children. That's just me... and maybe I'm a little bit of a hard ass, but I don't really think so.

I also agree with not letting them hang out with friends for a certain period of time, and then after that they should not be allowed to hang out with friends until they've finished chores/homework.

A lot of kids will lie and say they have no school work. I would be suspicious of this, especially for high school kids. I would make an effort to talk to their teachers frequently to find out what they should be doing. An easy way to do this is get the email addresses of their teachers (almost all schools have email addresses for teachers and administrators). Maybe you could arrange to have a conference with all of the child's teachers first and ask the teachers if they could email you updates on what your kid should have for homework. Make sure your child doesn't have access to your email account of course, because the crafty ones will intercept and delete emails from teachers and administrators before the parent can read them.

[Magrittes Pipe]

4. Join the club.

:shrug:

[ewagner]

8. Time for a long conversation

One that starts out:

What is it that you want most out of life?

How do you plan to get it?

How can I help you get where you want to go....

Somewhere in there, the message will come out:

Yes, I know. High School is a tremendous pain-in-the ass. It's inane. It's boring. I know. But the sad, sad truth is that it is also a RIGHT OF PASSAGE....it's a test you have to go through before you get to the good stuff....college, good paying jobs, friends, video games, etc...... Get through it and get on to the good stuff.

[July]

17. We've been there.

He's got a "philosophy" that my husband and I are "buying into" a "traditional" way of doing things.

We have helped him pursue his interests (languages and guitar), but I don't think he has any goals connected with them.

Completely agree with your explanation, but I can't get him to see it.

[Sabriel]

57. I hate to say it (as a teacher) but I agree with him

Is there an alternative high school in your area he could attend? Maybe a charter school that fits his interests? If not, if he's advanced enough, suggest getting a GED and heading straight for college.

I've seen too many intelligent children eaten alive by education systems. He's bored, he doesn't see the point of what he's asked to do, and...he's right, overall. Maybe it's not him. Maybe it really is the school.

[salin]

The problem with the "GED" route

is that on the average in the lifetime GED holders earn not much differnt than dropouts, and much less than high school graduates, let alone college graduates. Yes the exceptions do happen - but for the mnost part it has great negative consequences but ed folks (of which I am one) are not often honest about this. The problem is that the GED does not academically prepare students for college courses, so if one does attend college (often community college which I will return to in a moment) many classes that are required are more "skill building" (getting the writing and research skills up to the college level) that do not count for college credit - so now students are paying a lot of money for courses that do not count towards graduation.

To the community college - with the exception of a few states that have strong matriculation of courses between the community colleges and regular colleges (Fla and Ca are good on this, many states are not) most credits will not transfer to the regular college. In the end folks often have to pay for ($ and time) five, six or more years of college to get a four year degree. Most never finish a four year college degree (the sad stat is somewhere far less than 20% of Community College students finishing a four year degree, indeed I think the number is around 10%).

Advice to the parent - start having the son doing some basic accounting related to jobs that he could currently hold. Just heard on NPR a statistic (heard it on morning edition in the past week - could probably search the archives on NPR to find it) that on average the new college graduate earns twice as much money as the high school graduate. That difference only accelerates the number of years one is in the work force.

I have seen more and more teens of all income levels (though my primary work is with urban youth) that won't do school work and are totally bought OUT from schooling. There are many reasons for this - and some are quite legitimage. Where I see more turn arounds are where a) the parents take some hard stands (giving less "control" to their children... certainly take the cell phone away - but also the freedoms attached to needing a cell phone - if you know where he should be, and visa versa he doesn't really need a cell phone. Make sure he has several dollars of quarters for pay phones and no problem. If he spends those on other things and then doesn't call when he is supposed to - take another "freedom" away. Where I see success is where parents start to push some "independence coupled with responsibility" onto their children. Sometimes to get to independence students have to be dependent (eg dependent on rides that might not arrive on time if not called... from a pay phone).

At the same time, get some career oriented experiences lined up for your child. Vaguely interested in math - once a week spend several hours with an engineering firm doing interesting work. Vaguely interested in health issues - spend a couple of hours a week working as a volunteer at a clinic. Trick is to find an "internship" rather than a job - a job the kid is more likely to do janitorial work - and not get any sense of what the professional work is - and is likely to stay disconnected and disaffected, where if one is nominally involved in the work - where one gets to "see" the action even if doing clerk work, and where the professionals take a little time to debrief the kid in the real work of the office in a way that allows the kid to experience it albiet vicariously.. that is much more powerful and begins to put the "why" to the school work, even when the work seems superficial and unimportant (to a fifteen year old.)

[Padraig18]

9. "You go to school, or you work and contribute financially"

Those were my bother's words to my younger brother when he went through a 'school is a waste of time' phase: go to school, or work full-time and fork over part of your pay for room and board.

[bif]

10. You must be talking about my 13-year old daughter!

She's a brain. Went through the Magnet program. Is in Honors math and English. But she won't do her homework. Won't study for tests and quizzes and defilnitely won't open up a book to read for pleasure. She's just barely getting by. I'd like to make up a bumper sticker that reads: "My daughter's a straight C student at..."

[stinkeefresh]

48. I was like that

except I read for pleasure (until I was about 12- then I kinda stopped for a while). It worked for me. I never did my homework, turned in all my big papers a month late, frustrated the hell out of teachers who liked me and didn't WANT to give me C's. I'd say "tough luck teach, I didn't invent this grading system and I don't care about it. I'm here to learn and if I'm not feelin' this paper until a month from now, that's when I'll write it. Give me a C."

I got into college by having excellent SAT scores, and wrote my essay about being a gifted underacheiver. Got into every school I applied to and went to the one who gave me the best need-based financial aid.

There are always opportunities for smart people. If you reject the system at a young age, it just means those opportunities will likely also be outside the system. That may be right for her.

Encourage her to excell in the talents she does want to do. There must be something.

[July]

89. We do encourage the things he's interested in.

That's why I feel that, long-term, he'll be okay. It's getting through now that's a problem. I've seen a lot of people go through a weird period before getting their shit together. Problem is, we're living the "weird period," and it's not fun.

[Samurai_Writer]

12. I had a son like that too...

I agree with the other posters, the reactions must be immediate and strongly restrictive. You don't mention what grade he is in, but the method I used was my son had to be passing all classes to get his driver's license at 16, and then, keep passing all classes to have use of the car. No passing grade = no driving priviledges. Believe me, it works.

Peace,
Bella

[July]

18. The driving is one carrot we plan to use.

He won't be old enough for a permit for months, though.

I have no intention of letting him drive a car when he can't even manage school work, despite being highly intelligent. No maturity or responsibility, no keys.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

45. Driving restrictions are good too.

In some states the parent can actual revoke their child's license, if the child is under 18.

[barb162]

13. what does he want to be when he grows up?

since he's not passing, that means he can't hang out, right? If you don't stick to your guns and ground him, you won't be doing him any favors.

Does he want to go to college?

[July]

20. He wants to be a bum.

Seriously. He wants to share an apartment with his friends and do just enough to get by. He's smart enough and talented enough in other ways to do just about anything, but so far he's got no goals.

[Paula Sims]

14. Actually, there are a few of things to consider. . .

1. Any other changes in him? Consider something physical such as depression (yes, it's physical as well as emotional) or a hormonal change. See a doctor now.
2. What do his teachers have to say? Any change in his behavior at school?
3. Sorry, but this day and age, one must consider drugs. It's ugly but better to cross it off the list.
4. WHY is school a waste of time? Is he bored? Is it peer pressure?
5. ADD could also be a consideration.

I know of some parents that have taken their teens to a jail and had them talk to inmates who are working within the system to make up for those lost high school years and it was enough to scare them straight.

We know you love your son and that was NEVER the question or you would not have posted. Now some answers, with or without him, need to be sought.

Our prayer are with all of you. Good luck. Post often. We do want to hear what happens.

Paula

[July]

26. We have been looking into all of these things and seeing a counselor.

But even though there are things we can try to change or work on, the bottom line seems to be an immature reaction to his reality. I don't know how to make him grow up a little.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm pretty dejected.

[barb162]

87. I have seen this time and again with my friends' kids. They will

have 3 girls and 1 boy , for example, and the girls are motivated, good students, etc., and the boy screws off. Sometimes the boys are just so immature compared to the girls in the same family.


I am watching it again with a lawyer's son who pulled him out of an excellent out-of-state college because the kid was totally screwing off there. Try 35 traffic tickets for starters. The father said okay you can go to school and I will pay for school after you show me the grades. Then I will reimburse you. So the kid right now is working at some store trying to save some money to take some classes, at least that is what he says. It has been about 2 years since his father hauled his ass out of college and I don't think the kid ever thought the father would do it. I notice the kid spending money on the picture cell phones, piercings, tatoos, etc. The father is doing tough love on the kid and it will be interesting when this kid gets it through his noggin that minimum wage jobs aren't the best way to go through life

[lady lib]

16. Is he gifted and not being challenged enough?

My daughter almost dropped violin class because she was in a level too low for her skill. The teacher realized the problem and promoted her to a higher level and that solved the problem.

Is he learning disabled and struggling? Most LD kids are normal or above average intelligence, but have specific areas of difficulty that you may not even be aware of.

Does he have a vision for his future? He may need to start exploring his future career choices. Once he has a goal he might be more motivated to develop a plan and put the effort into achieving that goal.

[MemphisTiger]

19. Let him get a job doing HARD LABOR at a construction

company this summer. That will change his mind on getting an education. Also, he's not very smart if he thinks school is just a waste of time. I was the same way, and it made things hard for me when I went to college and had to catch up on the math when I found what I wanted to do in life. Tell him he's not so smart, we all need a reality check every once in a while.

[David Dunham]

23. Old Bush would take your son out to the woodshed

[tridim]

24. Wow, that sounds familiar

All I wanted to do in HS was draw, and I did. I Still managed to make decent grades though. I don't know how I did it.

[latteromden]

25. I do the same thing.

I am, apparently, a very gifted high school student, as evidenced by IQ tests and general knowledge and whatnot, but I do NO schoolwork whatsoever.

Is he behind in schoolwork because of hanging out with his friends so often? I've been sick so often that I'm far behind, and I just can't keep up with it, and I've given up. Other, personal reasons, too, but I don't think that's the case here.

You might, if it's not too much trouble, consider alternative schooling. If, say, he plays basketball for two hours a day with the guys or whatever, it's credit for gym (and honestly, it's probably more activity than a regular high school gym class).

[Radical Activist]

29. I did alternative school for 1 1/2 years of HS

and it was a good thing for me. I went half a day in the afternoons. It was a lot easier to tolerate school in smaller doses. I also did better because I had smaller classes where the teachers acted like they actually gave a crap about you. I did not do well in the giant High School Factory setting I was sent to for my Freshman year.

[Radical Activist]

27. Sounds like me

I'm 27 now and still think High School was a waste of time. I learned far more outside my classes on my own. I would do very little homework but still pass with C's and B's because I could get A's on the tests anyway. I suppose my life would be different if my grades had been high enough to enter an ivy league school, but my family never had the money for that anyway.

My problem was ADD. It wasn't the hyperactive kind so no one picked up on it. The more my Mother tried to force me the more miserable the whole situation became. My Mother arguing and berating me for not doing my homework and trying to force me are still some of my worst memories from my teenage years. None of it helped either.

Obviously, that may not be your sons problem so I have no good advice. Except that you might try to describe how going to a top rated school can open doors and provide opportunities through connections that going to an average college can't provide. People who go to Harvard or Yale practically have everything handed to them and every door opened after they graduate. It's ridiculous. That is true to a less dramatic extent with other top rated private colleges.

[July]

34. I do see your point, and his, about school.

I think of it as a means to an end, and I don't have a lot of illusions about it. My son could pass if he did any work at all -- like most smart kids, all he has to do is pay attention, which he's not bothering to do (he doesn't even show up half the time, and when he does, he brings no books and does nothing).

We've had those unpleasant conversations you're talking about, but I've changed my approach lately and just ask him to pass. I see him working on things that interest him outside of school, so I know he can work if he wants to. But I'm frustrated when I've backed down on my expectations and he hasn't held up his end.

He knows what a good education can do, because his father and I have a bunch of degrees from good schools. Even though I had to work like a dog to pay for it, I thought studying things that interested me was a great way to spend several years. Maybe he doesn't want to do what we did.

[Susang]

81. Maybe he can't always pay attention

People with ADD can hyper-focus, particularly if the subject is interesting to them. He may just "go away" in his head to a certain degree when it comes to school, particularly math.

I did, my couselor told my mother I had "high intelligence, low motivation syndrome" back in 1980. What I really had was ADHD, inattentive type. I don't require medication, but I did need to learn coping strategies.

Oh, and I had a 2.75 GPA when I graduated and I was accepted to Wayne State University and Western Michigan University. After my first semester at WMU, the University of Michigan reconsidered their decision and asked me to transfer. So there's always hope.

[Mizmoon]

30. I'm putting on my flame retardant suit

My mother did what is being suggested here - the total crackdown. In my situation it made things very very bad. I refused to be "cracked down on". I rebelled to a point that made the reasons that I was being punished for to begin with look benign.

Keep talking and making your expectations known, but stop trying to force shit you can't control. The reality is that you can't make him care about his work. It's got to come from him.

He's young. Oh God, they're so stupid and so beautiful ;)

For the sake of your own sanity also remember that who they are now is not who they will be forever.

[July]

43. No flames from me.

Total crackdown would be difficult for us to do, but I think some consequences might be in order. We have actually tried to give him MORE control of his life lately, as well as backing up on our expectations. But he is not picking up the ball. Bad grades have turned into failing grades, detentions have turned into suspensions, and now he is losing credits.

I know I can't make him care about the work, which is the reason we told him we just expected him to pass, nothing more (even though he used to be an honors student). I really want him to direct his own life, and I don't want to have to crack down. But he's not doing the minimum he agreed to -- what do I do now?

[RazzleCat]

55. Just another note

Go back and look at the ADD idea. You don't have to "twitch" all the time with ADD. Sometimes with ADD you just can't figure out how to budget your time, or how to do just a bit of an assignment and keep track of it every day.

[DrWeird]

32. I did the same thing.

In retrospect, I think it was a combination of not challenging enough work and a disrespect for authority.

I don't know if there's a good solution for the problem, except for time and patience.

[July]

90. I think you're right, except that I'm not going to make it that way.

The strife is extremely painful, especially in light of the fact that we all love each other. It's so damned unpleasant right now.

[MirrorAshes]

117. Same

and came to the same conclusions over it, too.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v3.0
==================



This week is our first quarter 2005 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
on donations from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for
your support.

[radwriter0555]

35. What happened to consequences? Don't any of his actions merit

consequences from YOU, the parent?

You have to create consequences to his actions, something you should have done long ago. You have to create the agenda, set the schedule and determine what actions and consequences follow HIS actions and consequences... unless you want him scamming at home for the rest of his life.

[July]

46. There have been some consequences, and we are trying to decide

what to do now.

We have had short-term consequences (loss of computer time, restrictions on going out).

BUT, I was prepared to let some of the consequences come from school (failure, detention, suspension), thinking that those consequences would wake him up better than my nagging would. Then those things came along and seemed to have no effect. That's why I'm upset.

And believe me, he won't be "scamming at home for the rest of his life." I'm trying to figure out a way to "turn the record over" rather than to escalate the tensions that already exist because of this.

[radwriter0555]

76. Complete restriction then until the grades are up and he shows a genuine

INTEREST and passion for his work.

School is his job, is the best way to frame this. I know it's boring, but it's what has to do for now.

Then it's up to you to show interest in his work as well. You must assist and review each homework assignment, proof it, make sure he does the corrections and hands it in.

It's so hard when the cirriculum SUCKS. My 11 year old can't stand the school work she does. She already registers how utterly useless it mostly is... but luckily has a passion for literature and history social studies which so far, keep her interested.

GOOD LUCK. It sure sounds like you will have to be VERY tough on the lad to keep him on track. I know he's a good kid, but this may be a rough patch...

[July]

91. I agree that school is his job.

I've used those very words.

BUT, I've done the monitoring of the work -- and I actually have real interest, because I'm a dork who likes to learn about things -- but I don't agree with the intensive monitoring. I'm trying to get him to act more and more like an adult, and to self-monitor. I know I'm a little biased because I was a self-monitoring dweeb, but if I want him to act like an adult, I can't hold his hand till he's 35.

If I could go back, I'd skip school entirely. But it's a little late now.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[July]

44. Actually, I know he is smart.

He's not using his brains to get his school work done, but I see him using them all the time on other things.

I was looking for support, not insults.

[Ron Green]

52. He's smart in IQ, but it seems he might need to work on the EQ side of it.

My belief is that we've all got the same basic task in life, which is to find what fears are keeping us from our true Self, face the fear and do the (usually tedious, for a smart person) things that will move us forward. Your son might be afraid of the boring stuff, since he is bright, but as we know, it's the boring stuff that makes us fully human and helps our growth. I wish I had a good and simple suggestion, but I like the "tough love" approach about rent and bills, and offer to pay for counseling if his life starts to suck too much.

[July]

65. Yes, in one of my replies here I mentioned that I think he lacks maturity.

Since he's 15, that's not a huge surprise, but I see other kids manage school reasonably well.

I like your thoughts on finding one's true self.

We have been doing the counseling, but he claims to be happy.

[Ron Green]

80. I'm not surprised he claims to be happy; his child "ego-self" is

comfortable doing just what he's doing, and he is smart enough to figure out ways to put off the inevitable painful process of growth. I don't envy the amount of energy that you will be spending to stay firm and fair with him, but it sounds as if you've got the knowledge and the will to do just that.

[July]

92. Thanks for the vote of confidence, I feel like a complete failure.

It's really wearing me down.

[salin]

104. Don't... consider it like going through adolesence again - but on

steroids... you have to go through the growth curve again - but this time in adjusting to a person who is attached - but yet independent from you at the same time. A big learning as one goes process. But this time around you have much less direct control as it is learning for two - learning from what you do (and what works and doesn't) while learning vicariously through him (eg experiencing his growth and diversions from that growth.) Sadly, your story is not in isolation. It is very common. That doesn't make it any easier - but it should take some of the "I am a failure" pressure off. Keep at it - you are only a failure when you completely give up. I would suggest taking some harder lines - as I describe in a post earlier in the thread (responding to the "GED" option). DOn't mean that as a criticism - but as a suggestion. Too many times we give teens far too much control of situations - we do so for the best of reasons - but in doing so we let the immature emotions and intellect become the guide for decision making... I wish you the best of luck. Keep at it. As hard as it gets - these years are so important.

[serryjw]

118. Try the carrot

He is interested in guitar? Offer him guitar camp if he passes all his classes.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%27guitar%27+camp%3F

At 15 I would be more concerned about his friends than not passing classes. My brother was a SH*TA student.,graduated college and made a lot of money doing it his way. They do grow out of this. Drugs or criminal activity they may not grow out of. Other kids at 15 are great influences. Do you know whom he is hanging out with?

[July]

37. I am overwhelmed at all the support.

I'm usually a threadkiller.

To all of you who've replied, I want to say that I thank you. I'm in a bad, mad, sad place right now over this, and I really needed some ideas and encouragement.

Thanks, again.

[Samurai_Writer]

40. More Encouragement!

From what you said, he's 15. 15 IS THE WORST. It WILL get better. Trust me.

From a mom of a 26 and two 23 year olds. They lived through their teenage years, which I consider a miracle. They are now three mature, independent, caring, responsible young men. It does happen. Really.

Peace,
Bella

[roguevalley]

41. Go to your high school and ask what the withdrawal thing is for your

district. Pull your kid out, make him get a job and then pay rent, toward groceries and such. He's coasting and not thinking about when he is out on his own. Give him a taste now with the priviso that he goes back to school if he can't hack it. Either he gets on the job he has -school- or he gets another one and earns his keep. I am always amazed when kids at home living off their parents feel they have this much power. You need to get it back.

[barackmyworld]

42. Some of my friends were like that, and they regret it

One of my friends is absolutely brilliant, got a very high SAT score, amazing writer, but she rarely did homework. Although all of her test scores were great, her grades were often C's and she ended up going to a crappy college that she hates. Does he care about college? If the answer is yes, he needs to be reminded of that. If no, then man, I have no clue.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

51. Colleges aren't looking for brilliant slackers

and neither are employers. Work ethic is more important than brilliance. Some people have to learn this the hard way, unfortunately.

[DrGonzoLives]

47. I agree with others

Make him get a nasty physical labor job for the summer. Tell him if he wants to continue slacking off, that's the rest of his life.

[seemunkee]

49. schedule a long, long talk

And find the root of the problem. Is this new behavior? Has something changed in your household? Do the teachers/school have a website were assignments and homework is posted? Have him show you what he does each night. And question him about the classes he says there isn't any homework in. In junior high we made our daughter have her teachers fill out a progress report every Friday.

If he is losing credit I doubt if he could graduate early, that was my son's way of getting out of HS. Does he need to take classes all day. What about a partial schedule?

We just got my daughter on track and it took a lot of work. She is taking one class at night so she can get extra sleep in the mornings,, that is helping her depression. That along with dropping her most painful class(French) has turned her completely around. So far this semester she has straight A's, from a C average last semester.

[dancing kali]

50. He's in grade 10?

That makes him 15 or so. I don't know what state you live in but I grew up in Pennsylvania. Driving age there is 16. You can always do what my dad did... no good grades... no drivers licence. I was like your kid until I was in the latter half of my junior year. I tested well and by the standards of the time I was considered to be in the upper normal range for intelligence. I just refused to work no matter what threats or punishments were made, and whined about not being allowed to drive.

It wasn't until my senior year that I suddenly pulled it all together and made honor roll (a first in my academic history) for the last three semesters of high school. I got my learner's permit the week I graduated.

If there is a good alternative school available you might look into that... however, a friend sent her daughter to one and the daughter came back to her one day and said that she wanted to return to regular school because the alternative school wasn't challenging her enough. You should do some research on the available schools if you decide on this option.

Good luck.

[lateo]

53. This was my story in High School...

Good luck with that...I can't offer you much advice outside of "seek professional help" with your son. I wish my parents would have done that for me...

[tcoursen]

54. an aside

Why is it that EVERY single thread that I ever see on ANY message board from a parent of ANY kid always describes that kid as "smart", "gifted", etc. etc. Doesn't even matter what the topic of the thread is.

Why do you never see posts where parents say, "OK, my kid just isn't that smart", "My kid is like every other kid"?

All these gifted teenagers certainly don't work at ANY of the stores that I go into in my area.

[Bridget Burke]

58. Patterns can be perceived.

Just as one can perceive the pattern of your postings on every single thread here at DU.

[tcoursen]

59. pattern

what is wrong with my posts?

[July]

63. I haven't seen the threads you're talking about.

I can speak for my child, though. He's smart. It's not just an impression I've got. See my post below about his score on the SATs when he was 12. He's been in gifted programs and honors classes since he was little, and had no trouble getting high grades until recently. Since he was quite small he's shown an ability to learn easily and quickly. Sorry to disappoint you, but this particular kid is "smart," "gifted," "intelligent," or whatever you call someone who learns easily. "Like any other kid," he has his strengths, and he also has weaknesses.

At the moment, he lacks maturity, but he doesn't lack intelligence.

He's also got a nice singing voice, a great sense of humor, and good hair.

[tcoursen]

72. for the record

For the record I wasn't specifically commenting on your situation, and isn't something specific to this board. It just seems like every time somebody mentions their kids it is always in the best possible way, even when describing a bad situation.

Does your son have any hobbies? Does he like cars? To build things? Anything that he could turn into a career? It sounds like he is just bored. If he likes something maybe try and focus his attention towards that. If he liked something like cars he could just go to school to be a mechanic. Guy across the street from me is a mechanic at a local car dealer. He makes good money and loves his job. Maybe there is something that he likes that he can turn into a career that doesn't require college.

[Shredr]

56. I was the exact same way and everyone told my mom to give up

She didn't. She pushed me. They did all kinds of test. Turns out, I was "gifted" and the normal classes weren't challenging to me, so I had just given up. They put me in a Magnet school for gifted children and I shot straight to to top of my class. Straight As.

Is there a Magnet School or anything like that in your district? It may take something as severe as taking him out of his current school and away from his friends. Put him in a more challenging environment.

Don't give up on him.

[cally]

60. I have no answers

but I've been going through the same thing. My eldest reads a book a day and retains it. She's brilliant at math and scienece. Ridiculously creative, but her strategies usually work. Refuses/can't do homework.

There's a long history here but I struggled like you do. I know, you know, they are not going to succeed if they don't do the work. Still, I wouldn't push for the homework again. If they fail, they fail. Make it their problem and their responsibility. I also wouldn't take the tough love approach. It works in some families but I think my daughter would be dead if I had gone through with that.

I haven't posted on DU yet but here's what happened. My daughter is 17 and may finish HS by June. A month ago I was pushing her to wake up and attend class. She went back to bed and couldn't wake up. I finally woke her up and talked to her. She was sheet white and I kept asking what was wrong. She told me she was sick and couldn't go to school. Then she went into her room and called 911. She had taken an overdose to avoid going to school.

She's now doing independent study and may graduate. Who knows? It doesn't matter.

[Festivito]

61. how about buying a sample SAT.

Hey, if he gets all but one question correct in each category, he's doing just fine. (If he's not working, I give him a one in a billion chance, i.e. there might be six such people in the whole world and they're probably all in India and China.)

Other than that, he's not getting into any good college with a C average and less than stellar SAT scores.

So, he'd better start working for money now. Paying rent. One free meal a week. (Parents are like that.) Additional charges for having his own refridge, not cleaning a mess as soon as it is made, laundry, "friends" privleges(big additional), etc.

He's not producing grades that will make your life easier later, then he'd better produce money that will make your life easier now -- since he cannot be depended on for later.

A small $50 fridge for his room might be a nice housewarming gift, and it will keep him from raiding your supply of food.

A $100 investment now, might pay off a million dollars down the road, or at least a few thousand for now. Good luck.

[July]

62. Well, he beat the SAT nat'l. average for HS seniors when he was 12.

Took the SAT as part of the gifted program at school. But you're right, he needs somewhat decent grades, too, for college -- if he goes.

[cally]

77. That's crazy...don't hang your hat on the high SAT scores

Many colleges weight grades. I can tell you 15 or so personal stories of super intelligent kids who took the SATs when they were 12 but struggled for college admission. I can also tell you about the few that I know who got a 4 GPA or above and stellar SATs and still don't get accepted. My point is that relying on their intelligence and test taking abilities is a losing strategy.

[July]

94. I don't hang my hat on it.

It's just one of several indicators of his intelligence, in response to someone questioning parents who say their kids are smart.

I didn't need SATs to tell me about my kid. He's got lots of gifts, along with his weaknesses. I know how the college game works.

Nonetheless, I'm glad he's intelligent by any measure, whether my own opinion (which I value) or SATs. Intelligence is good! SATs are not important to me, either, but someone suggested that my saying my kid was smart was just parental bias, and I don't think that's the case.

I don't want my kids to test well, I want them to use their intelligence to learn.

[Festivito]

119. Above average??? NO, I meant near PERFECT scores.

Maybe at age 4 or 5 being above average HS would impress. Everyone is in HS. When in a decent U, your kid will be woefully average. And without base information in brain, he'll be in a life and death struggle.

You want a disciplined child, you'd better get some discipline yourself and quit placating yourselves. I mean to be a bit harsh here. You know I mean well. Pinch yourself and wake up.

[bearfan454]

64. No school means pay rent.

Don't give him anything. Tell him to buy his own food.

[redsoxliberal]

66. am I your son by any chance?

[July]

69. If you are, why aren't you in detention?! nt

[aden_nak]

67. I remember that. Very clearly.

I don't know what my parents could have done to get me to engage school more. . . generally I did enough to placate them or to fool them into thinking I was engaging school more. Mostly I had trouble taking lessons in any given subject from someone that, even as a 16 year old kid who KNEW he didn't know shit, I knew I was much smarter than.

I don't know that there's a solution to that. Meh. Bribes didn't work, punishments didn't work. . . nagging didn't work.

[July]

70. So . . . what happened? You're not in HS now, are you?

How did you get out alive? What happened next?

[aden_nak]

73. I squeaked by.

And I more or less did the same thing in college. I don't know what it was exactly. . . I think it wasn't even so much that my Professors were as unintelligent as my high school teachers, I just didn't see any purpose to most of what I was learning and doing. The old "I am never going to need to know this" thing was always on my mind. 80% of what I learned in college I learned from BEING IN COLLEGE, not from my actual classes. It was only because I was a smart kid that I could catch up enough to get by in the end.

And to tell you the truth. . . a lot of it didn't matter for me. I went to school for Literature and Writing, and now I am a computer technician who never spent a day inside a computer class. That's how I am a lot of the time, though. Things that don't matter, I can't muster more than a cursory effort, and I am distracted very quickly. Things I care about, I can work on them for 12 hours at a time and blow people out of the water. It's counter-productive, and sometimes I wish I weren't that way. It's highly inconvenient.

But so is life, I guess. >.<

[maveric]

68. I have one of those too. He's in the 8th grade.

He tells me that school just bores him, isnt challenging and his teachers are morons.
I wish we had more progressive charter schools down here.

[NewJeffCT]

71. I was like that when I was young

I'm still somewhat like that as well. The only time I'd do homework is right before the class in those minutes between classes. Nobody could really motivate me to do much of anything in school, though I always tested very highly on standardized tests and/or IQ tests. I was also in danger of failing in my junior year of high school and having to go to summer school, though I pulled through by the skin of my teeth...

With me, it was fear of failure that motivated me. I cut it so close that year - the English teacher said at the beginning of my senior year that he was so eager to fail me that he recalculated my grade twice to see if he could come up with something below 60 and he could not. I think I got an A- in his class my senior year and went on to take tough electives in English in college even though I was an Accounting major and it was not required.

[IntravenousDemilo]

74. Maybe you could tell him

...that you think he's the smartest kid in the world, except for that. All the smartness in the world is not going to get you very far in the world without proper accreditation. If he's that smart, he'll understand that not paying attention to his grades and so on is not doing himself any favours down the road. If he's that smart, he'll know what a mug's game it is to hobble himself. If he's that smart, he'll listen to his mother (or father, if that's what you are). If he doesn't listen, are you sure he's all that smart?

[July]

95. Well, I agree with you for the most part.

Let's say he's smart in terms of native intelligence, but he doesn't want to play the game. I can even get that, remembering my own youthful ideals, which I haven't entirely thrown over. There's a part of this that I don't really understand, though. We have a close family, we support his interests and get along most of the time. But our advice about not closing doors is falling on deaf ears. Honestly, I don't know what's going on. I do think he's all that smart, but perhaps not all that mature.

[guitar man]

75. I was much like him

"Too smart for school" and all that. When my friends were off to college, I wound up in an infantry unit. Not a good place to be in this day and age with the *Madman as CIC.

[July]

96. One of my biggest worries. nt

[Bouncy Ball]

78. Let him fall, let him fail.

Don't catch him. Time for tough love.

Thing is, though, yeah, I would say any extra privileges are out if he's decided to blow off school.

This is getting down to the wire stuff. Best of luck. Choose your battles wisely.

[July]

97. Yeah, I'd rather have the real world lay it out than have to do it myself.

But beyond that, I'd rather he used his brains to figure out that he's on a losing path.

We ARE down to the wire (just had another fruitless discussion with him). It is very hard for me as a mother to see him making some of his choices. We just went through a whole discussion about work, with me, who paid her way through college, talking to him, who's never had to worry about money, at loggerheads. I just feel that I've lived in a different world, and I don't know how to get through to him.

Thanks for the good wishes.

[Bouncy Ball]

79. By the way, my husband was a horrible student, though

very bright. He dropped out at 17 to join the Army, then got his GED, then found out it wasn't the same, which pissed him off, so he went to night school while stationed at Ft. Campbell and got his real diploma.

I don't recommend the military for anyone nowdays except repukes who voted for bush, but it did him a world of good back then. He got ALL into it, was very gung-ho, started taking college course, etc.

Now he's a pretty successful guy. It would shock his high school teachers to see how he turned out.

It works out in the end, usually. Keep the long view. But do what you have to do now to make sure the damage he does to himself is at least minimal.

[NC_Nurse]

82. Do you know his friends?

What are they up to when they hang out? My oldest daughter had similar problems at that age and the group she was hanging with were into drugs/alcohol big time. We had to yank her ass outta that school and ship her off to a school/treatment center in another state. She had been fucking up since 7-8th grade and we had tried EVERYTHING. She came back with her shit together, finished school and recently graduated from college. It was tough, but she was headed down a dangerous path and I'm glad we did it.

She and I are friends again too, she has matured immensely and is well on her way now. I don't know what your son's into, but it sounds like maybe it's more than you realize...if he can't get interested in anything, there's a problem.

[JVS]

83. Are there no threatening military schools? Kids who are truly smart...

can usually manage to slack off in school and still bring home respectable grades. Hell, some of my friends and I managed to take AP classes and get 4.0s without much effort beyond studying a bit for exams. I don't see why you only demand that he pass, you should be insisting on at least B's and probably A's. Tell him that if he can't get a 3.5 you'll send him somewhere awful, like this place http://www.lwma.org/index.htm

[wildeyed]

84. Good luck with it.

I had tons of problems as a teenager. First was a budding drug and alcohol addiction. Second, I just didn't fit in the typical HS situation so my reaction was to just dis-engage. My parents switched me to an alternative school, where I was given much more freedom than a normal HS and challenged intellectually in more creative ways. My grades went right up. That combined with stellar SATs got me into a decent college.

My kids are still little. I am NOT looking forward to the teenage years.

[July]

99. Thank you.

I think my son's position is much like yours was.

You liked the alternative school? I am willing to do that, even though I know I will get nothing but shit from him for separating him from his friends. At this point, it's that or sitting home scratching his nuts. Since I'll be here with him, I'm not up for that.

Your kids may not go through anything like this, don't despair. My sibs with kids who've had tougher family situations are sailing right through the teen years. I'm wondering what kind of karma is hitting me now.

[wildeyed]

121. I did like the alternative school.

One of the rules, you didn't have to go to class, but if you missed X number of classes you failed. So it wasn't fun to cut anymore since it wasn't against the rules. Classes were small and informal. There was lots of open discussion on a variety of topics (just getting me ready for the DU, I guess). So I found classes more interesting since I didn't have to sit in a line and do boring multiple choice exams and watch film strips.

Who knows whether alternative school is right for your son, but since he is bright and bored, it might be just the thing. And maybe if the friends are part of the problem, it wouldn't be so bad for him to have some space from them.

Stringent discipline and boundaries never worked with me. It just escalated the problems. And the root of the problem was my hatred of the traditional school, so discipline never really addressed the true problem, but changing schools did.

[knitter4democracy]

85. Former high school teacher here (taught seniors, mostly)

Okay, here's the deal. You can't make him do anything, and that's what he's trying to tell you. I would do the following:

1. Explain that school IS his job and that, if he quits his job or slacks off to the point of getting "fired," he will have to pay his full fair share of the house, food, travel, medical, etc. costs.

2. Back off and give him some air, then. Don't nag, as he's stopped listening to it (I'm sure his teachers nag him at school, too). Just let him take full responsibility for his choices.

3. Make appointments to meet with all of his teachers (or even better, all at one meeting with the principal and your son, so there's no repetition) and explain what you are doing and expect them to back you up on it. If he wants to act like he's an adult in charge of his life choices, then he can have the consequences. Trust me, the teachers have been through this many times and will probably back you up.

4. I would have a long talk with him in a neutral location (the car could be good), and make sure that you do more listening than talking. Ask what he likes to do, what still interests him after all this time, what he would do if he could. He might not open up the first time, but he will eventually if he thinks you genuinely want to know and just won't use the information to hurt him. Don't then go into how he has to go to college to do whatever he likes--let him come to that conclusion.

It sounds like you have a gifted son on your hands. He's bored, and partying is more interesting than school right now. Seeing that most school options are only for "geeks" and not cool, partying guys like him, he's probably not interested in what the school has to offer. That said, whatever still interests him, tell him to go to the best teacher in that field and ask to do an independent study. That might be more interesting to him than usual classes, and it should fulfill some requirement he still needs.

5. If your district has a Gifted and Talented director or coordinator, get with her and find out which books she recommends to help you and him through this. You aren't alone, and you're not the first to go through it, so see what's out there that might help.

The best thing about the American school system is that we have many paths to the same goal. If high school doesn't work, we have night school, GED, and secondary options. He will be okay, it just might take awhile. My brother-in-law was like that, and a year in Japan as a junior really got him on track. Now, he's an international tax lawyer making more than all of us combined and happy as a clam.

[July]

100. Thanks.

Encouragement is what I need right now.

I think we've done most of what you recommend. We've even offered home schooling or a combination of that with community college courses, but he's trying to hang with his buds and doesn't really want to pursue other options (I think the buds are part of the problem).

I just want him to find his way. Right now he isn't doing that, he's just bombing out.

[knitter4democracy]

123. Seen that many times

It's hard for teens to see beyond the moment and the pleasure factor. It's not that they can't, it's just that it's hard. The friends probably are a problem, but he is the only one who can decide that. One thing that occasionally worked for me was to have the kids write a descriptive essay (can you tell I taught English?) describing themselves in five years as realistically as possibly given the path they were on that day. It was sometimes an eye-opener.

I had one kid write about he was going to just end up on the streets as a drug dealer, and that opened up the chance to talk with him about what he loved and what he really wanted to do (grew up in the projects, we got him into college, and he graduated in sports management, what he loved--knew he could, but he didn't until he started dreaming). Miracles do happen if we're patient and allow them to happen.

I had a thought last night: what if you took him out of school for one week and all of you went on a trip to somewhere he wants to go (within reason)? Make him do all the trip planning, give him a budget to stay within, give him the power. If the trip bombs, he only has himself to blame. If it's really good, he sees that he's good at making plans and learning new things. Of course, it could wait until summer or better weather, and you should definitely go along (and with job constraints, that could be hard to work out), but it might jolt him out of his behavior pattern. It worked for one of my students--she took a break after graduation and worked for a year. I never saw a more determined person to go to college after that. :)

[shesemsmom]

86. You have my sympathy

I have a 16 year old just like that

[NC_Nurse]

88. My sympathies!

Hang in there, stay engaged. I've made it through 3 teens (almost, my son is 16, almost 17). They've each had their own special way of screwing up and I have found that you have to be able to step back and see them for the individuals that they are. As I said before, my oldest daughter needed the tough love dose. Some of her former friends have been hurt and even died and became mothers way before they planned to...I had to step in. She now has a music degree and is looking to go to grad school in music or linguistics. She's headed to Europe next month with her friends.
My second daughter pulled some crap, but was in no way going down the same path. She was passing at school, had goals, was functioning. I let her be, loosened some rules for her as she proved herself. She is now on the Chancellor's list at her college, loving it, plans to major in Special Ed. Coming home this weekend for mama love (she has the flu).
My son got himself into a world of hurt over Thanksgiving weekend. He just went to court, is doing his community service to earn back his driving privileges and has brought his grades up since. I know he got in over his head with some other guys who were intent on raising some hell. Things got way out of his hands. He is earning back my trust and I am being supportive of him.
You have to know the child and prescribe based on that. I also have sent each of my kids to a therapist at least a few times , if nothing else to give them some other adult to talk to besides, me, their dad, or their stepdad.
Teen years are tough, but you learn a lot...that's for sure. :-)

[July]

101. Thanks, NC_ Nurse.

You're right, I'm learning a lot. Mostly, that I'm not doing things right.

Sometimes I just run out of gas. I try to put my kid first, and then I just have a "down" moment and wonder if I can take much more. I hate not trusting him and not believing what he tells me.

Thanks, again.

[shesemsmom]

126. Thanks I'm working hard on my kid

but I am seeing some improvments somedays others NOT

[HEyHEY]

93. Break his pals!

Well, as a person in the same situation at one time. Have you had him tested for learning disabilities?

[July]

102. No, haven't had him tested.

I might be missing the mark, but I think that it's more a case of "marching to his own drummer" than anything else, and that's even something I can respect up to a point. It's just hard to see him bringing down negative consequences upon himself. Am I missing something?

[JVS]

127. Yeah, break his pals!

[SmileyBoy]

98. Take him out behind the woodshed.

No, but seriously, he obviously doesn't understand consequences. Tell him about what's gonna happen to him if he doesn't get his high school diploma, and how his life is gonna suck without one, and how you might not take care of all his room and board if he doesn't get his ass in gear.

[erinlough]

103. Hi July, frustrating isn't it...

I have a son who is 25 and just coming out of this behavior. I don't know what will work for you, my only advice is to keep the communication open. I had to take a hands off approach and watch him make a ton of expensive mistakes. At 20 the mistakes only cost him money and trouble because I got myself out of the mix. Some people take longer than others. When he was about 22 we talked about what I could have done to make things smoother and he told me there was nothing. He explained that he didn't even think much about what I wanted, he was too busy pursuing his changing interests and trying to find himself.

When I think back on those times I am amazed at how frustrated I was because he was not following the traditional path. At the same time he achieved some amazing things, traveled with a prestigious music group for three years, learned to play dozens of musical instruments, always had a job, designed custom bicycles. After a very bohemian lifestyle he has settled on learning...motorcycle maintenance. I hope it goes well for him.

Last thing I want you to know. Through all of this, even the frustration, he is one of the most interesting and favorite people in my life. Like I said, keep communicating.

;)

[July]

105. Thanks, erinlough.

I keep thinking that eventually things will be okay. He really is a great kid in many ways. I'm just so frustrated right now. Do I HAVE to be miserable for the next six or seven years just so he can find himself? I'm trying, why won't he?

[erinlough]

107. This is the toughest part

how to go on while you see him heading for trouble. I teach special education so these are my kids. I do think that my students are easier to deal with because I am not so emotionally involved with them. I am able to sit back, offer my services to help them and support them while building their belief that they can be successful.

This did not work with my own son because I had a hard time separating my goals for him from the help he needed. I was a person who totally enjoyed school and especially college. He was a person who didn't enjoy school and went to college only because I pushed. That year and a half was an expensive lesson for me in letting go. A funny story, when he got his grade card for the last semester he was in school there were grades on it I had never seen before: X,I,A,E. I told him he only missed two vowels, O and U.

Hang in there and make sure he isn't depressed or using substances dangerously. Seek counseling, not only for him, but for you. I got help for myself and eventually he asked for some. None of us are really prepared for parenting. Those other parents who have kids who seem to do no wrong make as many mistakes and do as much right as you do. They are just in a different place. If there is a problem you are not aware of in your parenting a counselor can help you discover it.

Good Luck to you and we are all with you.

Kathy

[July]

109. Thanks, Kathy, you are so kind.

I don't usually get emotional, but right now the kindness of strangers means a lot to me. He's my kid, I want him to work it out. Thanks, again.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

106. I slack off everyday, I procrastinate, and even hand stuff in late.

Miraculously, I still maintain a 3.7 gpa (94).

He can do it too, I absolutely hated high school (I am a senior right now). Chemistry is tough. A 79 the third quarter of the year... that was the first smack to the face. I realized that I had to actually start studying for something. Before that, I really didn't study for tests or quizzes, etc.

Tell him to play the game for now, and when he gets out, he'll be loads happier. If he fails, he stays in high school longer.

[July]

108. Once again, thanks to all who are sharing their points of view.

I never expected such a response. It gives me heart to hear the different stories of parents and young people who've gone through this. Thank you all.

[GaYellowDawg]

110. I had my share of problems.

When I was in high school, I never took notes in class. And I mean NEVER. Never took books home. Did homework in homeroom and between classes. Only studied for one test the entire time.

There was a university that I really, really wanted to go to because I was a fan of its athletics teams. It was an out-of-state university, and wow, what a shocker to find that a 2.65 and a 28 on the ACT wasn't going to get out-of-state tuition taken care of. So it was two years in a community college. A decent GPA and all kinds of honors, and I was off to an in-state university, which I came to love, because I was having way too much fun. Grades dropped, and it was only when I realized that I would completely miss grad school that I took some classes over, did well, and managed to scrape out a 3.0 in my major and a 2.96 overall. Well, I got a 1320 on the GRE, and that got me admitted to another in-state school for an M.S. program. Guess what happened... I got academically suspended for grades after two semesters.

At that point, my parents took me back in but we had no idea what was going to happen. I agreed to go into therapy because I was really at a low point. So what was happening?

I turned off the effort when anything about a class aggravated me, whether it was the content, the teacher, anything. It was a classic passive-aggressive response. What I just didn't get on an emotional level was that my lack of effort wasn't seen by my teachers as me punishing them, or discontent. All they saw was... lack of effort. Unfortunately, I also discovered that I was punishing my father as well. He's a really, really good man, but he and I really butted heads when I was younger (I pretty much chalk it up as my fault nowadays), and as a teacher, it made him absolutely crazy to see me getting bad grades. I wish I had those years back even more for him than for me.

It took me a lot of time to take on a different response to discontent. I went through some ups and downs with the MS degree, but got it with a 3.3 GPA. I worked for a couple of years, but didn't find any jobs I liked at all with an MS in biology. I decided to apply for a PhD program to the original university I loved (I actually based it on quality of program, but it was a happy coincidence). Had to take the GRE over, and scored a 1340. Then, I got there, and actually had to go through some real trauma to discover that my first love was teaching, not research. I'm in a different PhD program at the same university, I hold a cumulative 3.75, and I LOVE my life and my degree program. I love the learning, but the A's are for PRIDE.

I would tell you to take your kid in for therapy, but he has to feel a need for therapy for it to work. Just know that there could be underlying reasons that even he's not consciously aware of. And I also want you to know from my example that it's entirely possible for him to want to change at some point, and life does offer a lot of possibilities for those people who are willing to work hard, even after mistakes. You hang in there.

[mark414]

111. mom? is that you?

but seriously, kidding aside, that was me in high school...a whole two years ago.

i barely passed any of my classes and the only reason i did was because i killed basically all my tests, just never did the homework.

this ----> http://www.publicallies.org is what turned me around. i'm now in my 2nd semester of college at the university of wisconsin-milwaukee and i'm on the dean's list.

feel free to PM me if you want to talk more

[Wapsie B]

112. What have you done with my son?

Just kidding. This sounds EXACTLY like my 18yo. His math teachers freshman year said he was the most gifted math student they had for that level. His TAG (Talented and Gifted) teacher told me that if he applied himself he could've won the senior award for math scholarship.

But.......he won't do ANY homework. The teachers are dumb, it's a waste of time according to him. He was evaluated as being gifted in writing but he refused to do even the most rudimentary assignments in 10th grade English. He doesn't study at all. Comes in and takes his tests cold and Aces them but gets poor grades because of not doing homework. His TAG teacher said his test-taking ability validates his beliefs about study. In his mind if he Aces the tests, he knows the material so why should he put any more into it? He's demonstrated command of the subject matter so he sees no need for anything else.

It's to the point that I think he'll take the GED when he's eligible. Very few teachers at our school really know how to deal with and motivate someone like him.

[mark414]

113. ha maybe i should've waited for this post too

to ask if you were my mom

i was exactly like that and still somehow managed to graduate early.

like i said above http://www.publicallies.org is what actually put some sense of responsibility in me, plus the fact that college learning plays much more into my style, just a couple of tests and class a couple days a week, and they're actually interesting and everything! i even made dean's list!

my parents are speechless but hey i guess every one just hits their stride at some point or another

[knitter4democracy]

124. He's a sophomore? That's the worst year.

Sophomores are like toddlers with hormones. Everything's, "No," "I'm doing it MY way," or "You don't love me anymore, and I hate you!" I barely made it through the year I taught sophs.

Those teachers are overloaded, and I am sure that they know what to do to help but just can't--no time, no help, no energy anymore. No, they shouldn't be letting him get away with it, but it's hard. He'll get a rude awakening next year, given that most junior year teachers start really cracking down on stuff like that. It's more about college application essays and SATs and ACTs, etc.

Talk to his English teacher about Forensics. Does your school have a team? It really helped keep me engaged when I was in high school. There are different writing competitions available that the teachers might know of--and those might give out money for college. There also might be a math team he could join. I know, I know, only geeks do that stuff, but it's a lot of fun, and he should do it for that reason alone.

[donheld]

114. If a draft comes, he'll be one of the first

Make sure he knows that.

[KaliTracy]

115. What do his friends do -- what do they want in their future? are they

all bored and just hang out?

I used to teach.... and there is a lot of "nothing" that goes on with the "something" . I believe that a person (of any age) needs to be vested in the process of learning before it can occur. And unfortunately, traditional schools don't allow this to happen -- on many levels.

One option, get a job, pay your way. Another is a talk about where he wants to be in 3 years, in 5 years. Any possibility of him doing an independent study at his school with one teacher he likes? Any possibility of looking into alternative education options?

Go here for a comprehensive look at alternatives http://www.educationrevolution.org/ - many are Democratic Schools (not the political party -- the schools are run by democratic means -- everyone has a say in what goes on). In Free Schools and Sudbury Schools there is no curriculum -- though the kids are expected to be at school. The majority of these kids do go to college. You kind of need to read about these schools to understand them, so click around the site if you are interested.

And read this: 10 signs that you need to find a different education for your child http://www.educationrevolution.org/tensigthatyo.html

Here's a listing of some schools by state -- http://www.educationrevolution.org/aero-member-schools.html#united%20states

Also many of the books by Alfie Kohn are good (check out "What Does it Mean to be Well Educated?" http://www.alfiekohn.org/books/wdimtbwe.htm ) among many others.

I'm not saying that your son should be able to call all of the shots here, after all, you are the parent. But I am saying that taking a deep look at your expectations of what learning is, as well as his experiences and expectations of what he wants to do "when he grows up" could help him shape a path where he can strive for the future instead of just thinking about today and the next time the gang hangs out.

Good luck.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. Some thoughts

If your son doesn't like this school, find one that he does like. I know a family (perhaps more affluent than yours) who sent their son to boarding school to get him away from his slacker friends, all of whom had the "school is for losers" attitude. If that's not an option, maybe there's an alternative school. And without knowing your son, it's hard to tell what kind of alternative school he needs, whether a do-your-own-thing type or a boot camp type.

I was an unmotivated student in high school. Although my parents had spent years creating an atmosphere in which I did not have the alternative of not doing homework, I rebelled by doing it haphazardly and not studying very hard for tests. My courses actually required so little attention that I wrote stories during class and still had a solid B average. On top of that, the social atmosphere in the school was deadly for me, and I didn't fit in anywhere.

Like your son, I was avid about the things I was interested in. My father subscribed to a book club that sent special editions of classic literature, and I read all of them, along with most of my parents' other hundreds of books. I studied French and Norwegian on my own. Too bad none of it was required for school.

I think I would have done better in an academically rigorous high school, because my study habits improved the minute I got to college. My first semester, I took freshman English, Latin, geology, and medieval history, all fast-paced courses, and loved them, earning A's in everything except geology (back in the days before grade inflation).

As I look back, I see that high school was not demanding enough for me. I needed someone cracking the whip, and I needed peers who were also interested in studying.

Another possibility is that your son has had it too easy and doesn't realize what adult life requires. Has he thought about how he is going to live? Has he thought beyond next week?

I know a family whose teenager wanted to quit school and form a rock band. Fortunately, the family was acquainted with a locally famous rock musician, who was able to tell the kid about the realities of the music business and the importance of having a Plan B.

So reality checks are good. Find out what kinds of futures your son has in mind for himself, and then put him in touch with adults who are working in those fields. Sometimes kids are willing to hear things from outsiders that they aren't willing to hear from their parents.

I agree with those posters above who have said that if your son isn't going to school, he should get a job and contribute to household expenses. Make it clear that in no case are you going to support him just so he can goof off. I've known families in which parents let their sons or daughters just drift, and the results are terrible. In one case, the son is in his forties, has never finished school, has never held a real job, fancies himself a musician (although he never seems to have any gigs), and makes constant financial demands on his parents and other relatives.

It's a complex problem. I ran into unmotivated bright students as a college professor, and sometimes the only way they could learn their lesson was by flunking out.

Good luck!

[FreedomFry]

120. So-called friends, second-born children, and consequences.

It's time to find out who his friends are and what they're up to. It's amazing how important peers are to a teen. These "friends" don't sound like they're doing your son any good. I think it's worth listening to the poster who sent his/her daughter to another school to get her away from friends who were bringing her down.

Also, at least from your posts, it sounds like you and your husband may be over-achievers. If your older son is following in your footsteps (i.e., toes the mark, gets great grades, acts responsibly), your younger son may be rebelling on that score. Studies have shown that second-born children are often more rebellious than first-borns -- my husband, my mother and a nephew were all second-born and all rebellious. The good news is, they eventually found themselves and all turned out great -- as your son surely will.

Many posters have already said this, but I just have to agree that what your son doesn't seem to have learned yet is that actions have consequences. A little tough love at this point might not hurt. Maybe he needs to drop out for a while, get a job, pay rent and groceries, and watch his classmates pass him by.

[sendero]

122. After reading through this thread..

... it sounds to me like you are a good parent making the best of a tough situation.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

I've known people with your son's attitude and while if it were my kid I'd be doing whatever I could (and you should be too, within reason) to change it - the fact is your son's attitude is out of your control.

You could try the major-super-dooper clampdown - essentially grounding him for life - but would that really work? I doubt it.

Maybe you should wait him out. Give him a bit a slack but try to find ways to show him that he is glamorizing the life he intends to lead and that he has a finite amount of time to figure that out.