I'm SICK of MEN who are ANTI-ABORTION!!!!!!!!

[liberalhistorian]

Whew, there, I feel better now, at least for a little while!

We now return to our regularly scheduled lounge.

[WindRavenX]

1. Yeah me too

They need to STFU.
Grr.
I wonder how they'd act if I tried to control their dicks...?

[Renew Deal]

4. No one needs to STFU.

If everyone did, I'd be stuck talking to myself. It's good that we're hammering this out. I have stayed out of it, but I have researched it on my own.

[liberalhistorian]

20. Really!

How about they have to get permission from their wives or girlfriends (I could be snarky and say "or both", but I won't!) to have a vasectomy? How about they pay for their own goddamn viagra instead of having it covered by insurance, when birth control pills aren't covered?

[fit4life]

54. That makes no sense.

Let me start by saying that I agree that birth control should be covered by insurance.

With that out of the way, your comparison of Viagra to birth control is apples to oranges. Viagra is a medication to treat a medical condition. Birth control is a medication to prevent pregnancy. Most all medication that treats medical conditions are covered by insurance, while "lifestyle" drugs aren't.

I'll be happy to listen to bitching about birth control pills not being covered by insurance as soon as condoms are covered too.

AND...lol

Getting back to the original topic of the post, being a male does NOT preclude me from having an opinion on abortion. That's just idiotic.

[liberalhistorian]

56. No, it certainly doesn't

preclude you from having an opinion on abortion. It does, however, preclude you from forcing your opinions on women and demanding that they make the decision YOU want them to make, pro or con.

As far as your laughable argument about Viagra being for a "medical condition"-bullshit! That "medical condition" also has to do with a "lifestyle" issue, as you so put it. We're not talking high blood pressure or kidney disease here, we're talking about the inability of men to have sex. THAT is NOT a serious or life-threatening problem, and is certainly not a life or death medical condition.

Now, you want to talk serious or life-threatening problem, or medical condition, let's talk about how a lot of women should not get pregnant for medical reasons and how the pill might be the best way to prevent what could be a life-or-death situation for her. That is NOT a "lifestyle" issue as you insist on calling it, that's BULLSHIT. But the pill is NOT covered and is terribly expensive for a lot of women. I've known women who needed to avoid pregnancy for medical reasons, but who struggled to afford the pill every month and were terrified that they'd get pregnant. But who cares, right? Once she's pregnant, her life no longer matters to too many people, the fetus is all they care about. Until it's born, of course, then they don't give a shit.

Show me the man whose life could be threatened if he doesn't get his Viagra and can't have sex, and then maybe I'll listen to your ridiculous argument.

[fit4life]

64. Grow up LH

No, it certainly doesn't preclude you from having an opinion on abortion. It does, however, preclude you from forcing your opinions on women and demanding that they make the decision YOU want them to make, pro or con.

Where did I force my opinion on anyone? I shared it with this board, much like you did. You don't have to read it if you don't like it. I have the same right to an opinion you do.

As far as your laughable argument about Viagra being for a "medical condition"-bullshit! That "medical condition" also has to do with a "lifestyle" issue, as you so put it.

You should talk to the AMA about that then, because erectile dysfunction has been classified as a medical condition. I didn't make the decision to classify as a medical condition, so you can take your accusations of a "ridiculous argument" to the medical profession, not me.

We're not talking high blood pressure or kidney disease here, we're talking about the inability of men to have sex. THAT is NOT a serious or life-threatening problem, and is certainly not a life or death medical condition.

Eczema isn't a life-threatening condition either, but it's still a medical condition. So there goes THAT attempt at a rational argument. Keep trying.

Now, you want to talk serious or life-threatening problem, or medical condition, let's talk about how a lot of women should not get pregnant for medical reasons and how the pill might be the best way to prevent what could be a life-or-death situation for her.

That's a non-argument, especially when abortion is perfectly legal in our country. It's definitely not a decent argument for having birth control covered by insurance.

That is NOT a "lifestyle" issue as you insist on calling it, that's BULLSHIT.

Yeah, it is. She can NOT HAVE SEX and prevent pregnancy. The choice to have sex without benefit of other birth control devices such as condoms is a LIFESTYLE CHOICE. You may not like it, but that doesn't change the truth of it.

But the pill is NOT covered and is terribly expensive for a lot of women. I've known women who needed to avoid pregnancy for medical reasons, but who struggled to afford the pill every month and were terrified that they'd get pregnant.

But not quite terrified enough to abstain from sex huh? Wow, talk about skewed priorities. "I can't afford the pill, but if I get pregnant I might die. Oh well, gotta get laid, can't live without it and don't want hubby to get pissy, so I'll just take my chances." Yeah, that makes sense.

But who cares, right? Once she's pregnant, her life no longer matters to too many people, the fetus is all they care about. Until it's born, of course, then they don't give a shit.

Who the hell are you aiming this screed at? Did I say I was against abortion? Didn't I specifically say insurance SHOULD cover birth control? Bitch at someone else.

Show me the man whose life could be threatened if he doesn't get his Viagra and can't have sex, and then maybe I'll listen to your ridiculous argument.

You don't read very well do you? And for a "historian" you don't research very well either. Erectile dysfunction is a medical condition as defined by the American Medical Association. If you don't like it, aim your poorly thought-out bitchfests at them, not me. It doesn't have to be life-threatening or serious to be a medical condition, so your little litmus test is completely irrelevant. MY only argument was that Viagra was for a medical condition, while birth control isn't. We agree that birth control pills should be covered by insurance, and we agree that abortion should be legal. I don't know why you chose to attack me for making a simple distinction that most first graders can comprehend.

If you're going to attack me because I offend your sensibilities, you better come a hell of a lot better prepared than you just did. I have no desire to listen to a misguided lecture from someone who obviously doesn't know what they're talking about.

[liberalhistorian]

68. Oh, how easy for you to make such

sweeping statements! What if a woman is married, you gonna say to the couple just don't have sex! Well, bully for you! That doesn't work in the real world, pal. Unless you want the divorce rate to skyrocket, that is.

Pregnancy is a helluva lot more serious medical condition for many women than "erectile dysfunction" is, I don't give a shit how the AMA classifies it because the AMA has always been more concerned about the welfare of men than of women. Leave it to a man to not give a shit about how it can affect women and how much more serious it is.

[fit4life]

70. So it's a man vs woman thing for you huh?

Pull your claws back in little girl, you don't know a damned thing about me. If you want to hate men that's fine but don't go projecting your hatred and gender warfare on me.

[liberalhistorian]

72. You don't know a damn thing about me

or other women or all of the MEDICAL uses of the pill, either; you can't post a hateful, ignorant screed like that and expect women to take it "lying down", so to speak, now, can you? Our days of sitting down and shutting up are over, pal. And you don't know a damn thing about women who shouldn't get pregnant for medical reasons, either, so you can't expect to make sweeping bullshit statements like "just don't have sex" (even if she's married!), and not get called on it either.

[fit4life]

79. Wrong again LH.

Nice try though.

I know all about the medical uses of birth control pills, and in most cases where medical need can be shown, insurance companies cover the pill. BUT IN THE CONTEXT WE'RE SPEAKING OF, WHERE THE PILL IS FOR BIRTH CONTROL PURPOSES ONLY, IT'S A LIFESTYLE CHOICE. You do understand context don't you?

I know a thing or two about women who can't get pregnant for medical reasons too. I was married to one for six years, and I helped her though her endometriosis, her hysterectomy, and the other myriad problems she dealt with on a daily basis. No, I didn't experience it firsthand, but I damn sure saw what it did every day to the woman I loved. So don't tell me I don't know about it.

Look. We agree that birth control should be covered by insurance. We disagree on some symantics bullshit and that's it. But don't you dare think you can attack me, and don't you dare go thinking you know me and my life. You don't, and your idiotic assumptions are baseless and uncalled for. I may not be a woman, but I don't take attacks lying down either, and if you think I'm going to back down from you because you have a uterus and an attitude, think again.

[liberalhistorian]

92. Look, if you agree that

the pill is used for more than just pregnancy prevention, that it's used for many other female medical conditions, then I'm not clear on why you had to attack my post about coverage for the pill vs. Viagra. You initially said that Viagra is covered because it's for a medical condition, whereas the pill was for "lifestyle" conditions.

However, leaving aside the pill's use as pregnancy prevention, it isn't even covered when it's used to treat medical conditions or to prevent pregnancy that would CAUSE serious medical conditions. Yet, Viagra has little other uses than to help men have sex and it's automatically covered by insurance? Not being able to have sex is NOT a serious medical condition. Can you understand why we resent this double standard so much?

[Withywindle]

75. You do realize that there are women for whom pregnancy is risky, right?

High blood pressure, diabetes, various cancers, anemia, severe depression, HIV, fibromyalgia, heart conditions, kidney problems, etc....just a random selecting of a few conditions that can turn pregnancy or not into very much a life-or-death issue for a woman.

Not to mention poverty, abusive relationship, vicious fundie parents, high-stress job/student status, or simple lack of readiness/desire to have a child.

Oh, but those are "lifestyle" things, right?

[liberalhistorian]

78. Yes, they are to him,

but members of his gender not being able to have sex is a life-threatening medical condition to him.

[Withywindle]

85. yeah, but I also got that WOMEN are supposed to "abstain"...

...if they don't want to get pregnant, so who exactly are all these Viagra-popping men supposed to be going at with their Frankenboners? :D

[fit4life]

80. Once again, you don't know me.

And you don't know what you're talking about. Read my reply to LH and maybe you'll start to get a clue.

Don't jump into arguments where you don't know what's going on, the only thing you do is make yourself look stupid.

[Withywindle]

83. I read the whole thread - what more do I need to know?

....I don't think I'm the one looking stupid here.

[fit4life]

84. Maybe not alone.

You and LH are both making fools of yourself arguing with someone WHO AGREES THAT BIRTH CONTROL PILLS SHOULD BE COVERED BY INSURANCE.

LH's gripe is because I said erectile dysfunction is a medical condition, as defined by the American Medical Association. That turned into her posting some long attack on me for saying that, and I returned fire, as I will continue to do when I'm attacked. I have no desire to fight with anyone, especially someone I agree with, but I'll be damned if I'm going to lay down and take an attack. We democrats have been doing that for far too long and look what we've got in the White House and Congress for it. I will NOT back down, and I will counterattack with all the ferocity with which I'm attacked.

[KinkyDem]

102. UH ... I usualy enjoy reading your posts LH ... BUT ...

"What if a woman is married, you gonna say to the couple just don't have sex!"

That is EXACTLY what you're saying to men with ED. It's broke .. don't have sex.

"Pregnancy is a helluva lot more serious medical condition"

ARGHHHH! Pregnancy is NOT a medical condition.

"Leave it to a man to not give a shit about how it can affect women and how much more serious it is."

ARGHHH! And YOU have bought into the AMA/heterosexist idea that pregnancy is a medical condition.

You are letting your emotions cloud your argument. ED is a medical condition and men have a RIGHT to have regular, healthy sexual encounters. Women who have a ligitmate medical condition and should probably not get pregnant also have legitimate medical reasons for BC.

And just so we're super clear here ... I am pro-choice, I support covering BC by health insurance, I support drugs to treat ED, I reject the idea that pregnancy should be "treated" by an MD ... support your local midwife!

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

74. BC pills are also used to treat medical conditions

like menhorragia (heavy and abnormal menstrual bleeding) and hormonal imbalances, both of which I have.

And yes, one of my insurance companies when I was working in NC did NOT pay for them, regardless of the use, yet it paid for "erectile disfunction" medications and instruments (like penile implants)!!!

[fit4life]

86. I'm aware of that.

The original posting was referring to birth control pills in their capacity of birth control, which was the context I kept them in when I posted the difference between Viagra and birth control pills.

Apparently everyone missed the part where I specifically said birth control pills should be covered by insurance.

[liberalhistorian]

91. Another thing-

I apologize if I've been a bit too vitriolic. But you might want to rethink telling me to "grow up" and saying I'd be more comfortable on freeper boards when I've been here two years and have 10,600 posts to your 269 posts.

[fit4life]

98. I apologize as well.

We obviously got off on the wrong foot.

Post count doesn't mean a thing to me personally. Being a prolific poster just means someone has a lot of time. I prefer quality over quantity. ;)

[dorktv]

107. There are other reasons then not getting pregnant to take the

pill. Sometimes it is to correct a hormonal imbalence. But it still is not covered.

[Withywindle]

69. Right on, and also..

...the Pill is often useful for other medical conditions. I took it for years partly for birth control and partly because I have endometriosis and it helps (Had to finally quit 'cause I'd just been on it too damn long).

"Lifestyle"? Oh please! Was it a "lifestyle" issue when I was in my early 20s making $5 an hour and working full time with no health insurance?--I couldn't have afforded an abortion, much less a pregnancy/delivery and kid!! Oh right, being broke and having painful troubles with my girl parts was a "lifestyle." Can't recommend it, I must say.

[fortyfeetunder]

59. Birth control pills are also used to cover medical conditions

Women who take BC pills also use them to regulate periods (that's what happened in my case) and also to mitigate side effects of menstruation, such as painful cramps, and heavy bleeding.

[knitter4democracy]

67. I was put on it for my endometriosis--and that's no lifestyle thing.

It didn't work, but we had to at least try it to see. Viagra has a few off-label uses, but not as many as BC pills.

[liberalhistorian]

71. Don't expect him to even understand

what endometriosis is, K4D, he probably thinks it's some kind of skin thing that women are vain about, or something. I mean, in his world, it's more important for a man to be able to have sex than for a woman to be protected from a potentially life-threatening pregnancy or pregnancy-related medical complication.

BTW, fit4life, Knitter knows what she's talking about since her husband is a physician. The pill is used for many other medical conditions of women and not just for pregnancy prevention, whereas Viagra is hardly used for anything except to help men get their rocks off.

[fit4life]

88. Damn, you're really making an idiot of yourself LH.

I lived through my wife having endometriosis, I was a Navy Hospital Corpsman for four years, a paramedic for 6 years, and a medical assistant for 4 years. I know a little about the medical field myself.

I don't give a fuck what Knitter's husband is. My wife was a Cingular Wireless agent but it doesn't mean I know a damned thing about cell phones.

Once again, you've turned a simple post into a flame war. I'm not backing down from your bullshit attacks on me. They're unwarranted and ignorant. For Christ's sake, you're acting like a fucking republican. Maybe you should go to a freeper site where attitudes and attack posts like yours would fit in.

[knitter4democracy]

103. I didn't mean to get into any kind of flame war.

I just wanted to make a little clearer the difference between Viagra and birth control pills in their medical significance. I didn't know you have a medical background, and I hope you weren't offended.

Btw, I helped my husband get through the last two years of pre-med, got married to him after his first year of med school, helped him study for all three board exams, helped him study all through residency, and go through his journals to help him know which articles he needs to read and which ones to toss (we get piles and piles of free journals every week, in addition to the ones we pay for, so someone has to control it). I sure don't know anything about cell phones, though . . .

I'm very sorry your ex-wife has endo. Is she a member of the Endometriosis Association? It really helps, and they have the best books.

[Withywindle]

77. Me too!

I replied above before I had seen this. My sympathies: it's horrible.

The Pill did help for me, for several years at least. I'm sorry it didn't for you.


grrr....I might have to have surgery for it AGAIN.

[liberalhistorian]

89. Well, I had a complete

hysterectomy over two years ago for endometriosis and ovarian cysts, and let me tell you what a tremendous difference it's made, it's like night and day! Sure, there's a part of me that feels bad that I'll never have any more kids, but to feel so much better physically is almost worth it. Surgery might not be a bad thing, in that regard.

[fit4life]

90. My wife went through the same.

They left one ovary so she didn't need hormone therapy though.

She still deals with a lot of pain from varicose veins in her abdomen.

[liberalhistorian]

94. I had to have a complete one

because it was a lot worse than the doctor thought when she actually got in there. She had to take everything when she'd planned to try to leave at least one ovary. The hormone replacement isn't so bad, though, I just put an "estrogen patch" on my stomach once a week and it works for a week. The doc didn't want to put me on pills because of my relatively young age.

[fit4life]

95. I know it was pretty bad for her too.

She had major scarring and then the ob doc botched her surgery the first time around and she nearly bled to death. Scared the holy hell out of me.

And for the record, I get ahead of myself sometimes. She's my EX-wife, we divorced in 2001, but we still maintain a very nice friendship. I'm getting married (again) next month. Just wanted to clarify so nobody got confused. lol

[knitter4democracy]

104. The average woman with endo has seven surgeries for it

in her lifetime. That's one reason why I haven't gone that route yet, but I'm starting to wonder about it. My pain turned off while I was preggers and/or nursing, but now that I'm not, it's back pretty much everyday.

Have you looked into that clinic in Atlanta that only treats women with endo? Are they any good? I'm thinking of going to an "expert" to see what they can do at this point. Of course, it's not like we know that much about this disease . . .

[Withywindle]

106. I'm lucky I guess....

...only one so far. The pain hasn't been bad enough to look into another one, but I'm afraid it's starting to pick up again.

I'm in Chicago, so it would have to be pretty bad for me to go to Atlanta -- not sure if my insurance would go for that. It's kind of shocking how little is known about it, isn't it? Not much more than when I was first diagnosed 10 years ago....

The doctor suggested I get pregnant. It sounds like that helped you, but temporarily. Can't endo cause sterility, though? Talk about a Catch-22!

[knitter4democracy]

109. Yeah, it's a nasty disease.

It can cause sterility, and the average woman with endo takes 3-5 years of trying to conceive if she's under 30, 5-7 if she's over 30. We weren't exactly in the best place in life to have kids yet, but when the third doctor suggested that we start trying and when we saw the odds (only 60% even get pregnant anyway), we decided to start. I was lucky: only one year of trying for each child. It turned off my endo for awhile, and I really needed that break, but it seems to be back now.

In all honesty, I'm a bit scared about starting up my own yarn shop this fall with the pain coming back. Stress doesn't help either. :( I'm not really sure what to do, so I've been reading up on things at the Endo Association's site, getting their books, and trying new exercises (yoga--fell off the wagon on that one, though--and belly dancing--start a new class in two weeks). I also need to stick closer to my diet with no cheating on any milk products in anything at all! Bleah.

[Renew Deal]

2. I'm anti-abortion.

I am also pro-choice.

[Blue-Jay]

3. I'm sick of abortion flamewars bleeding over into the Lounge.

[Renew Deal]

5. No pun intended?

;)

[Neoma]

6. I'm SICK of WOMEN who are ANTI-ABORTION!!!!!!!!

;-)

[liberalhistorian]

11. LOL!

I hear ya! But I can handle and respect that a helluva lot more than MEN who want to control women and who have no clue what the fuck they're talking about.

[Neoma]

12. they have no clue what the fuck they are talking about

but they go around trying to force people not to get abortions just like men do.

Most actually DO know what they are talking about, and thats whats scary.

[pres2032]

7. i'm a male and i'm anti-abortion

i guess that fact that i'm a democrat who is also anti-gun, anti-death penalty, anti-war, pro-social services, pro-great education and worked tirelessly to defeat bush is overridden by the fact that i also happen to be pro-life. So much for the big tent.

[Renew Deal]

10. You're not pro-life. You're anti-choice.

Oh shit

:nuke:

[WindRavenX]

14. do you vote pro-choice or anti-choice?

It's possible to be pro-life and pro-choice. That's the problem that I, as a woman, have when people seem to think they have jurisdiction over my body.

[pres2032]

22. you mean, have i ever voted for some one who wants

roe v. wade overturned? no.

i'm still unsure whether i want that overturned or not. But either way, before i ever work to overturn it, i would want society to be perfect so as to allow every child to grow up in the best way possible. that's a long way off.

[WindRavenX]

23. exactly

But in your words, i would want society to be perfect so as to allow every child to grow up in the best way possible. that's a long way off.
That's why, until then, abortion must be legal. Safe, rare, but legal.

[shesemsmom]

15. There are times when the death penalty appied

for instance. Recently a 10 year old girl was kiddnapped and killed by some fools who THOUGHT she knew about their meth lab. Come on FRY THE SUCKERS. They deserve it!!!!!!!

[liberalhistorian]

30. Do you have any idea what that situation is like

for a woman? I do, because I've personally experienced it. Do you have ANY idea what agonizing over that decision is like? Do you have ANY idea what it is like watching the father, the man, not have to deal with any of it because he just didn't feel like doing so? Do you have ANY idea of what those situations are like for a woman? No, you sure as hell don't and you never, ever will. And I'm not talking about the usual condescending, patronizing platitudes that so many anti-choice men love to spout, either.

And do you know how many women suffered and died horribly, or were permanently and painfully injured before 1973 because of people who believe as you do? Do you know how bad it will once again be for women if the anti-choice nutballs have their way again? Ask an older woman, 50's or older. They'll be able to tell you. Both of my grandmothers were very realistic and pro-choice, and some of the horror stories they could tell of friends and family and schoolmates who suffered horribly or even died were just incredible. My college sociology professor in the 80's told us about how she had to help her students in that situation a lot. In the mid-60's, one of her students came stumbling into her office, bleeding profusely, crying out for help, then she collapsed. She died later at the hospital, having developed an infection from an illegal abortion, she bled to death before she could die of the infection. And THIS is what you MEN want to take us back to? I DON'T FUCKING THINK SO!

[pres2032]

36. um, did you even read my other post

post #22?

I'm really sorry to hear about whatever you went through. But you can be sure that if i get a woman pregnant (it would be after we're married) I would spend every possible second taking care of her and the baby.

[Bouncy Ball]

8. I'm SICK OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ANTI-CHOICE!!!

I'm SICK OF PEOPLE WHO ROMANTIZE AN EMBRYO!!!!

I'M SICK OF PEOPLE WHO CARE MORE ABOUT A CLUMP OF CELLS THAN AN ACTUAL LIVING BREATHING CHILD!!!!!!!

I'M SICK OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND WHEN THE PARENTS HAVE A BETTER LIFE, THE KID HAS A FUCKING BETTER LIFE!!!!

SO ALL YOU ANTI-CHOICE PEOPLE JUST KEEP STICKING YOUR IGNORANT HEADS UP YOUR IGNORANT ASSES!!!

[Neoma]

16. WOOT!

:toast:

[Karenina]

45. I've lived abroad for a decade

and have never heard a discussion about abortion. NEVER. It's the business of a woman and her doctor, not a topic of public discussion.
Damn that socialized medicine! ;-)

[liberalhistorian]

57. Welcome

to Amerika!! :evilgrin:

[El Fuego]

48. Damn straight, Bouncy Ball!!!

:headbang:

[shesemsmom]

9. I think it's a WOMANS personal business.

not the mens. I wouldn't choose it for myself, but I think a woman has a right to one if she feels that need.

[liberalhistorian]

13. Exactly!

When faced with that situation, I knew I couldn't have an abortion, but I sure as hell have NO right to make that decision for any other woman.

[Bouncy Ball]

17. I've never had an abortion, either.

And it's a moot point for me now. But I want the government to stay the hell off my daughter's body.

I have had several miscarriages and I had one lady chew me out for that, saying I should have prevented pregnancy rather than "allow" myself to have miscarriages, because now "those poor babies are angels in heaven."

Yeah. Way to make a woman feel better who is going through secondary infertility. I called her a bitch and walked off. I don't EVER do that. But I did that day. She deserved it for saying something that shitty. A miscarriage is a hell of a lot different than an abortion. And no surprise, she used to protest out in front of clinics.

[liberalhistorian]

25. OMG! I know there are people

who feel like that about miscarriages, but it makes me absolutely sick that they even exist. And "allow" yourself to have miscarriages? How the fuck do you "allow" yourself to have a miscarriage? Yeah, and these people claim to be so "concerned" about pregnant women. Suffering a miscarriage is a horrible, incredibly painful experience for a woman, and it's unconscionable for these ignorant fuckers to even say something like that.

She was probably so fucking ignorant that she didn't even know the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage. But then again, when we have legislators introducing bills to require the reporting of a miscarriage within 12 hours of its occurrence (even in the very early stages of pregnancy) to the POLICE OR FACE CRIMINAL CHARGES, what do you expect?

[Bouncy Ball]

26. Yep I heard about that fucker in Virginia.

And KUDOS to the women who wrote to him, offering to send him their used pads and tampons for him to personally inspect each month. I think that was the nail in THAT coffin for him and his proposal. Plus I secretly hope his wife bitch slapped him and screamed "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION, ASSHOLE?"

That proposal was REALLY insulting. The insinuation being, of course, that they want to make sure the woman didn't do anything intentional to cause the miscarriage. What a hurtful, hateful thing to propose.

Why are they do damn nosy? Why can't they butt the fuck out of people's lives, these rightwing assholes?

[fortyfeetunder]

60. Speaking of miscarriages

I think Mother Nature is probably responsible for the majority of pregnancy terminations via miscarriage. How about the MEN go after HER? Yeah, Right?

[liberalhistorian]

65. The RW just can't accept that, though.

They have this bee in their bonnet that the woman did "something" to cause it, because life and babies are so precious that God would never do that, blahblahblahblahblah. I'm a Christian and I can tell you right now that there are plenty of things that happen that we just can't explain and that we will never really know the reasons for, and miscarriage is one of them. The RW hates women, so therefore if a woman has a miscarriage, she must have "done something" to cause it.

[Dedalus]

87. Come on...

...there's really no need to be going off about "MEN" in all-caps.

This is clearly a Crazy Right vs. Sane Left issue, not a gender conflict. There are people of both genders on both sides.

Yes, the "MEN" on the Crazy Right are sexist, but the "MEN" on the Sane Left aren't (at least, not in this specific way, or we try harder not to be, or something...), and we're just as much "MEN" as they are.

When you say or imply that men who support women's rights aren't as "manly" as those that don't, it hurts women's rights, because it makes men unnecessarily afraid to support them, even if you meant the original distinction as some kind of backwards compliment.

[Withywindle]

82. !!!!!

Not only is that unspeakably vicious and cruel and rude, but it doesn't even make sense!!

I thought being an "angel in heaven" was a good thing?



"ALLOW yourself to have a miscarriage?"


Speechless. Utterly speechless. I keep thinking the Talibama-types can't shock me anymore, and then they do. Kudos to you for letting her keep her teeth; that took grace.

[LoZoccolo]

18. Don't you think, though...

...that if a woman has the right to control her destiny by choosing abortion, that men shouldn't have to pay child support?

[cags]

47. Interesting point

[Solon]

101. False comparison...

One affects a woman's control over her own body a medical decision only. The other is about responsibility of a former mate to offspring that were already born. The reason why I used general terms is because there are cases of the Father getting custody and the Mother paying child support, however the system does skew towards the Mother, or at the very least, shared custody arrangements. Your comparison means precisely nothing, because both parents of the child in question bears some responsibility for that child outside of the womb, but before that, its the woman's decision and hers alone.

[SmileyBoy]

19. Here's my take:

I'm personally morally against abortion. But I'm also pro-choice. It's an unfortunate necessary part of society. If they were illegal, women would be dying in the alleys from coat hangers. At least in this way a doctor can perform one in a sterile, healthy environment.

One can be anti-abortion and pro-choice at the same time.

[Renew Deal]

21. Sterile

is what women would be if abortions were outlawed.

[Vladimir]

24. I think my opinion on this question shouldn't matter n/t

[Dookus]

27. I'm pro-choice!

And did a lot of fighting in GD on the subject. Some of us men are OK :)

[Bouncy Ball]

28. You're definitely ok.

Come over here so I can give you a good noogie. Then some rug burns.

[Dookus]

29. nuh uh

I don't want no girl-noogies.

[liberalhistorian]

31. We love you

anyway, Dookie!

[Bouncy Ball]

32. I won't hurt you too bad.

[Dookus]

33. that's what you always say

last time I was hospitalized for 5 days with an impacted purple nurple.

[Bouncy Ball]

34. Infected Wet Willie, I thought it was.

Yes, the purple nurple. I'm remembering now. But your damn dog bit my left ear off when I did that. Tit for tat.

[Dookus]

35. You never touched my tat

and I certainly never touched yer...

[pansypoo53219]

37. talk about it!

just wait til they figure out how to have men carry babies.

[UdoKier]

38. Why only men?

Most of the men I know are pro-choice. The few "anti-choice" people I know are almost all women...

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Pro-choice!

I am here, I am queer, and I am FUCKING PRO-CHOICE all the way!! No room for argument! It is and should ALWAYS be a WOMAN'S choice!!!

It's a woman, not an incubator! (in response to those stupid it's a baby not a choice stickers)

[yorgatron]

40. i am a 43 year old man and i am PRO abortion and

PRO birth control and i have NO intention of ever having children.i have 3 sisters who have 7 children total between them.i have been replaced,the DNA goes on...

[zann725]

41. Well then that would also include Kerry...per his recent interview on MTP

Though I agree. It's too easy, and hypocrtical for men (who can't get pregnant) to dictate to Women (who can), how to control their bodies. It simply is NOT any Man's OR Government's business what a Woman does with her body. Sad that we've continued to let them write Laws as if it were their choice.

Just ignore them.

[donheld]

42. I'm SICK of ANYONE who says Abortion is used as birth control

I just strongly believe that is FALSE as all hell.:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

50. There ARE people who do use it as birth control...

Women who have had 7,8,9 abortions are using it as birth control. They have every opportunity in the world to use the pill or a condom when they have sex, but they don't. They get pregnant and then get abortion after abortion. That I don't agree with, because it's sooo easy to not get pregnant in 2005. I'm sure you're going to go after me. I don't care. This is what I strongly believe.
Duckie

[zanana]

51. You seem so sure of this.

Is this something you've seen? Do you personally know alot of women who've done that? Or are you just repeating an old, tired excuse from the far right?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

52. I actually have a cousin that does it...

And her excuse is that the pill makes her fat, and the abortion scar only lasts a week. Whatever.
Duckie

[LDS Jock]

61. a DU poster said she did

I can't prove that she really does, but from her posts I believe her.

[donheld]

100. I'm not going to go after you

I'm just going to disagree. There maybe a few who abuse the system, there always are, but i believe those are in the minority.

[Seabiscuit]

43. Ditto.

[Rhiannon12866]

44. Well, technically, nobody's pro-abortion

It would be wonderful if there were no abortions or a need for them. But, I agree, I am also pro-choice, and think that any guy who isn't is probably a Neanderthal.:shrug:

[huellewig]

46. It is a economic decision.

Ladies don't like killing babies. Stick around and pay the fucking bills and abortion goes poof.

[Misunderestimator]

49. MEEE TOOOOO

[goodboy]

53. I think we should all stop saying "pro-life" and call it "pro-birth" after

all...pukes especially don't give a shit about that life once it's born. But it does help to eliminate most of the hypocrisy of being pro-life, and pro-war, pro-death penalty, etc.

[liberalhistorian]

55. EXACTLY!

"Pro-birth" is EXACTLY what they are, I've seen and heard it far too many times and experienced it personally myself. When I was pregnant, I was the "pro-life" crowd's "darling", they were all over me, especially when I decided not to have an abortion. Once my son was born, that was it, I NEVER heard from any of them again, including Birthright, where I went for counseling.

[goodboy]

66. Have you ever tried to explain to these people that abortions went DOWN

during Clinton's presidency, with an almost 50% decline by the end of his second term.

Not only have abortions gone up, but teen pregnancy/early teen sex is on the rise with abstinence-only bullshit education.

[GOPBasher]

58. Well, I'm anti-abortion.

By that I mean, if I were a women, I don't *think* -- "think" being an operative word here; I can never be sure what I'd do -- that I wouldn't get an abortion. Of course, I'm pro-choice, which can be totally consistent with being anti-abortion.

[LDS Jock]

62. that is true, and often overlooked

I am certainly not pro-abortion (whatever that is), but in no way to I want the choice taken away through legislation. The same group which likes to chat like a mantra "they hate us for our freedom" also wants to take away the freedom to choose by imposing their own beliefs onto someone else. It is an individual's decision, not for the country to decide.

But then, I don't count or so I've been told. Gay men shouldn't have an opinion on the topic.

[liberalhistorian]

76. I don't know what "pro-abortion" is, either,

since I have never, ever, ever met anyone who was "pro-abortion", not even those who've had an abortion. It's just a RW meme to paint us all as baby killers, frankly. What we are is "pro-CHOICE." Frankly, I guess I could be considered "pro-life" in that I don't like abortion and don't think it should be taken lightly at all. Safe, legal, and rare, as I believe the mantra goes.

I know I could never have gone through with one myself (moot point now, since I had a hysterectomy due to endometriosis two years ago), but I want the choice available to women and I have NO right to make any other woman's decision for her.

[jswordy]

63. Too bad for you then!

[liberalhistorian]

73. Whatever.

eom

[Borgnine]

81. Me too.

I'm a guy. Even if I don't completely agree with abortion, I'm strongly pro-choice. After all, I'll never bear children (barring any asnine Ah-nuld/Danny Devito movie plot), so how can I even form an opinion on it?

[El Fuego]

93. It's just MEN keeping WOMEN DOWN!!!!!

These anti-abortion men don't care about embryos, or about babies for that matter. It's really about reducing the status of women to that of a breeding animal. Anti-abortion men don't want women to have the power to control their destinies. Women are just baby machines. It's just to subjugate women, and make themselves feel powerful.

[pres2032]

96. wow, i'm trying to figure out if you're joking or not.

[El Fuego]

97. OK, I'm being HYPERBOLIC!

[pres2032]

99. LOL

You never know, there are some women here today with claws fully extended.

[Arkana]

105. The little woman must be barefoot and preggers!

Of course I'm kidding :P. I hate 'em too, and I'm male.

EDIT: Smilies are weird...

[NightTrain]

108. Personally, I'm tired of both MEN AND WOMEN who are ANTI-CHOICE.

I think Bill Clinton put it best: "I dream of an America in which abortion is safe and legal but rare."