Are your cats safely indoors where the can be protected or...

[BikeWriter]

...do you allow them to roam free and...

[BikeWriter]

Get run over by cars?

:(

[DenverDem]

1. My cats have never been outside since the day they were born 12 years ago.

They are totally healthy and will live to 30.

[BikeWriter]

3. Very good! Congratulations on being a responsible pet owner!

Thank you! :)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

377. My Amy is an indoor cat, and I will never let her go outside.

I have seen too many cats wind up as roadkill, battered from cat fights, infected with parasites, and I personally don't need her to bring trophies home to me.

[arcane1]

2. mine only gets to go out on the balcony sometimes, supervised

but she is definitely fascinated with the front door

[BikeWriter]

7. Yes, but you know outside is dangerous! Thank you for caring!

:)

[BiggJawn]

4. There's the "inside cats" and the "outside cats"

The inside ones are pets, the outside ones remind me of Alton Brown's cookbook....

"I'm just here for the FOOD"...

But....they eat the food, they get caught and take a little "trip" to the vet...

"My testicles! What did they do with my testicles! They were here last night?!?!?"

[BikeWriter]

11. ...and what if they get eaten by a dog?

:(

[BiggJawn]

28. What, I'm supposed to bring another 6 cats inside?

People get written about in the newspapers for doing that.

And I suppose I should bring in all 10,000 birds that visit our feeders, too?

I'm sorry, I should have explained that the "outsides" are FERALS. We feed them because, well, we feed them. We get them "fixed" so we don't have to feed as meany.

[BikeWriter]

32. and they kill the natural fauna in turn! "Feral" means they do not belong

outside!

[BiggJawn]

64. OK, I'll go home and SHOOT them tonight.

That'll save all the "natural" fauna...
Just no making you happy, is there?

[Bertha Venation]

105. BiggJawn

:hug: Thank you. I thought it was me.

[BikeWriter]

126. It would make me happy if you'd safely confine your destructive pets, but

...I seriously doubt you will.

[BiggJawn]

148. Hey, Bikewriter, go buy a CLUE...

For the last time, they're not my "pets", they're the fucking Feral alley cats that my girlfriend and me took pity on and provide a reliable source of food for.

Why are you having so much trouble wrapping your brain around that concept?

Or are you just in a mood today?

[iconoclastic cat]

171. "It's not...my...dog!"

[BikeWriter]

172. You feed them, attracting them to your neighborhood...

...where they may intrude on your neighbors, and enabling them to prey on other animals. Yet you deny any responsibility for them? Okay...

[Renew Deal]

269. Prey on other animals?

I don't get it. What's the problem?

[JVS]

161. I salute your decision to take a step in the right direction!

[BiggJawn]

163. What-Eh-Vuh....

[iconoclastic cat]

175. Maybe we could burn the cat toys!

:evilgrin:

[BikeWriter]

177. Maybe more cat owners could be responsible for their pets...

...and other animals?

[ulysses]

114. you bring feral cats inside as a matter of course???

[BikeWriter]

127. I don't own any cats. When my children have in the past they've been...

...inside where they belong for their own protection and that of wild animals.

[ulysses]

131. Oh!

This might have been much simpler if folks hadn't thought you were actually worried about the cats' safety.

[BikeWriter]

138. I am concerned for the cat's safety, and the wildlife. Are you? n/t

[ulysses]

139. sure.

I'm more concerned for my cat's quality of life. He was miserable being a 100% indoor cat. He's a happy cat now. The wildlife, in my experience, can take care of itself against predators like cats. We don't seem to be lacking here for all manner of fauna.

[BikeWriter]

144. I'm afraid you're wrong. Google "feral cats extinct birds"

:(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

135. so what you are saying is for those who do rescue

non-tame/feral cats....shoot them? ignore them?

funny how a non cat owner can be so judgemental about people who do a good service to society (trap-neuter-return for non adoptable pets) :eyes:

[BikeWriter]

147. The neutered cat will kill a hundred or more birds per year when released.

How do you justify that?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

153. so what should one do with a wild cat?

[BikeWriter]

162. Take it to the local SPCA or other shelter. They are chartered by

local governments to handle them.

[LDS Jock]

167. handle them or kill them?

it seems you are all for the killing of cats, but the protection of birds.

[BikeWriter]

176. What happens to the cats that kill hundreds of brds each year...

...is not my responsibility, yet I don't want them to suffer either. As it is, most live short painful, violent lives.

[LDS Jock]

186. why do you choose birds over cats?

You claim to be an animal lover, concerned for their well being, wanting to stop the suffering of birds, but yet not caring at all if cats suffer. And I'm not talking about keeping a cat indoors being suffering. Personally, I think cats should be indoors, but I don't make the decision for everyone. As far as feral cats, I do feed the ones here at my apartment complex. I support the TNR programs to control and reduce the population. With the number of cats reduced, your birds will also be better off.

[BikeWriter]

244. There are possibly 100 million cats in the U. S. Do you believe...

our ecosystem can continue to sustain them and our wildlife? As I mentioned to someone else, try Googling "feral cats song birds extinct" Here's one of my first results. What is it about letting a cat run free that makes it worth making a species extinct? TNR reduces litters, but it does not significantly reduce the number of overall predators.

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Factors such as habitat destruction, pesticide pollution, and high domestic cat numbers, stress populations of songbirds and small mammals. Second only to habitat destruction as an environmental problem, cats have probably been involved in the extinction of many bird species. Populations of birds such as the Least Tern, Piping Plover, and Loggerhead Shrikes have been threatened by the predatory nature of domestic cats. Population of small mammals, such as the Florida Marsh Rabbit, mice and woodrats have also been reduced to the point of near extinction on Florida’s barrier islands.
http://www.cdri.org/Discovery/Feral%20Cats.html

[havocmom]

407. A long time ago, in a continent far far away, cats were considered evil

and diabolic. Villagers and town-folk were encouraged to kill them off so as to keep their presence from leading people astray. Cats were ceremoniously tossed off church steeples in some places.

The good folk got rid of most of the evil, promiscuous cats and the rats lived happily every after, sharing domiciles and plague carrying fleas with the good humans. And then the humans started dying off.

Here is a BIG NEWS FLASH for ya: Cats kill more than birds. Take some very late night walks. Most of the birdies are out of sight but feral cats are hunting. They are hunting RODENTS which spread a lot of bad disease.

Stop picking on people like BigJawn who are caring and responsible. Hey, nobody told him and his GF to take on the financial liability for having the cats neutered. There are gonna be feral cats whether people feed them or not. There are more than you know because most are nocturnal killers of RODENTS.

[fleabert]

212. could you please cite your source for this stat?

I would prefer if it was an original link to the actual study so that I can look at the conditions under which it was done. thanks!

This is new information for me, so I'd like to understand it as thoroughly as possible.

[BikeWriter]

369. Here's one.

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
Factors such as habitat destruction, pesticide pollution, and high domestic cat numbers, stress populations of songbirds and small mammals. Second only to habitat destruction as an environmental problem, cats have probably been involved in the extinction of many bird species. Populations of birds such as the Least Tern, Piping Plover, and Loggerhead Shrikes have been threatened by the predatory nature of domestic cats. Population of small mammals, such as the Florida Marsh Rabbit, mice and woodrats have also been reduced to the point of near extinction on Florida’s barrier islands.
http://www.cdri.org/Discovery/Feral%20Cats.html

[BrklynLiberal]

157. A pair of blue jays had nested in the eaves near my front door last spring

I watched them create the nest. I watched as the eggs appeared. I watched as the male and female took turns sitting on the eggs. I watched as the eggs hatched and the babies appeared. I watched as the parents took turns getting food for the babies. It was one of the most
enthralling experiences of my life.
As the time came for the fledglings to leave the nest, I begged my neighbor to keep her cat inside for just a couple of days to give the babies a chance to get a start in life.
The next morning, I found all five babies, or what was left of them, on the ground in front of my house.
I buried their remains in my back yard.
The blue jays are gone now. There are just a few snow covered twigs to remind me of what was once a nest. I don't know if they will ever be back.
What I really wanted to do was dump the remains of the babies right on my neighbor's front porch.

[BikeWriter]

160. That's terrible! I'm so very sorry you had to go through it. Some people..

...just can't be bothered to keep their pets in. :(

[BrklynLiberal]

169. And I asked..I begged. It was just for a couple of days! I was sick for

days.

[BikeWriter]

182. I would magine so. It was like losing an old friend the other day...

...when I saw the Mockingbird's head and wings on my porch.

[notadmblnd]

52. Two of mine came from the pound

and one found me last year. So I'm pretty sure they were outside cats before they decided to settle down at my house.

[BikeWriter]

58. They don't belong in the wild. A single feral cat can kill hundreds..

...of birds each year.

[Bertha Venation]

108. Not if they know where to find easy food.

Like on the Venation House porch. Which is also where they find fresh water (in an electric bowl -- no freeze in winter), a dog house w/ shavings & towels, and plenty of space under the porch for their own little kitty-customizable huts. Plus the garage side door is open so if they can't escape the cold, at least they can get out of wind, rain and snow.

Well-cared-for and well-fed feral cats -- the kinds of ferals usually discussed here -- are not a huge threat to birds.

[BikeWriter]

130. That supposition has been proven wrong. Cats presented with live prey...

...will stop eating, kill a mouse, then return to their prepared food.

"Well-fed cats kill birds and other wildlife because the hunting instinct is independent of the urge to eat. In one study, six cats were presented with a live small rat while eating their preferred food. All six cats stopped eating the food, killed the rat, and then resumed eating the food."
http://www.wildbirds.com/protect_cats.htm

[Bertha Venation]

145. I posted a supposition?

I am talking about my experience with my feral colony. This is not a supposition.

I don't know that my ferals do NOT hunt at all, but I know what I've observed and what I've seen. My ferals don't need to hunt to eat. I have never found bones, skins, or feathers on my property, let alone half-devoured carcasses or even fresh kill brought to me as a gift.

Finally: feral cats ARE. I am not going to KILL them in order to save birds and other critters. Why not? Because they too are wild critters. That they proliferate is the fault of humans -- but not this human, since as you know if you pay attention to my posts about my animals, I perform TNR.

You don't advocate killing the ferals that already exist in the world, do you?

[BikeWriter]

150. Their killing occurs every day in the wild and in animal control centers.

When done humanely it saves them from starving, dying of diseases, or injuries. It also saves the wildlife they would have killed.

[Bertha Venation]

154. Let me make sure I understand you:

Do you advocate the killing of these wild animals: feral cats? I am reading you at "yes." Correct me if I'm wrong.

[BikeWriter]

158. I advocate the control of stray cats. The local authorities...

...make regulations on how to deal with them.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

159. and a lot of them recommend trap-neuter-return

i am still confused as to what your exact stand is on this

[BikeWriter]

179. Do you believe in protecting our native wildlife, or in enabling its...

...extinction? My major motivation is protecting the wildlife. Spay, release programs make feral cats more efficient, healthier killing machines.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

181. my question is what exactly do you believe in?

are you saying the cats should be put down?

[LDS Jock]

183. i think she does, from this response to me

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2500850&mesg_id=2503194&page=

[BikeWriter]

245. I'm saying our ecosystem is in the throes of cataclysmic pressure...

...from global warming to pollution. Entire species of birds and animals are under tremendous pressure. Some are extinct, and others are on the verge of it. The wildlife management departments all cite the tens of millions of roaming and feral cats as one of the top factors affecting our wildlife.
We need to decide where our priorities are where our species of wildlife are concerned. Booming feral populations of any invasive alien species should take a back seat to our native species facing extinction. Yes, act responsibly and put the cats down.

[fleabert]

214. so if a feral cat killed a pigeon, you would be fine with it? nt

[BikeWriter]

246. I'd have a problem with the cat being loose, but

the pigeon is feral, too.

[Bertha Venation]

164. You're not going to give me a "yes" or "no," are you?

It's really a simple question, and your position is clear, whether you deign to answer a simple question or not.

But I give up. I won't keep beating a dead horse.

You can have the last word. :hi:

[BikeWriter]

185. I told you. I'm for protecting our wildlife. If that requires humane...

euthanasia of invasive feral species, so be it. Are you for enabling our songbird's extinction?

[ikojo]

208. Bertha V is the patron saint of cats in DU land

She is a mensch and should be APPLAUDED for the righteous work she does on behalf of unwanted feral cats.

If there were more people like Bertha V it would be a much better place for all cats.

For you Bertha V....

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[BikeWriter]

247. Who is watching the songbirds?

:(

[Bertha Venation]

298. The cats.

;)

I know that was evil. Just kidding.

BikeWriter, you and I won't agree on this. I think you're wrong to support, even if not actively, the killing of feral cats. You think I'm wrong to support feral cats. We won't see eye to eye. :shrug:

[BikeWriter]

363. I think you're wrong for enabling unwanted feral cats to exterminate...

...billions of bird and mammals each year, yes.

[Bertha Venation]

400. What makes you think that these feral cats are unwanted?

Sheesh! If I didn't want them, I wouldn't spay/neuter them, vet them, feed them, or give them shelter!

And I am still waiting for your direct links to unbiased research on the subject.

And I'll add another challenge: come to my house and watch my feral colony for a week. Count how many critters they kill. :eyes:

[BikeWriter]

410. Unbiased research? I've posted several sources from colleges...

...and environmental experts. Here's one.


The Toronto Humane Society goes even one step further. It suggests cat owners never let their animals outside. That prevents them from getting into fights or contracting any diseases.

And David Pimentel says, whatever you do, don't just release your animals when they become a nuisance to you.

"It would be nice if people, when they have cats that have bred and have a lot of young ones, wouldn't just dump them out in the wild," Pimentel says. "They should dispose of them with the SPCA or some place like that."

White agrees. "It's not a nice life for a feral cat. They have a short life and it's a very hard life."
http://exn.ca/cats/gonewild.cfm

[Bertha Venation]

450. Tell you what. I will read what's at the links you've posted. How about if

you read the entire U.S. Code that I cited in post no. 321.

[BikeWriter]

451. How about if you act responsibly and stop enabling the extinction of...

our native birds and mammals by an invasive alien creature?

[Bertha Venation]

452. Oh, my god.

You are clearly not interested in considering my point of view, although I was interested in reading the links you'd posted.

So much for trying to understand the other guy.

[BikeWriter]

468. So, you're denying cats are destroying our wildlife?

I've posted a number of articles proving exactly that. Not to mention their encroachment and destruction on private property. I want those cats off my property, and you and your kind are feeding them!

[Gemini Cat]

462. She is acting responsibly.

Bertha takes CARE of the cats. She loves them and feeds them and does all the things that makes for a responsible cat owner.
I'm glad there are people like Bertha V in this world!! I wish there were more like her.

Bertha, I salute you and anyone else who cares about the cats! :toast:

[BikeWriter]

469. If she were acting responsibly she would not support those animals...

...invading other people's yards and shitting, and killing animals and birds! That's just plain rude!

[Mallifica]

467. man

cats have nothing on humans as far as being "invasive alien creatures" . .

do you live in a house (that was probably built with wood - a tree in which a bird lived)?

do you drive a car (polluting the air that every creature breaths)?

[BikeWriter]

471. Our native birds are welcomed on my property! I've fostered hundreds...

...of them. Irresponsible cat owners allow their pets to hunt here. That shows no respect for the wildlife or for the property owner!

[Bertha Venation]

302. ikojo, I am surely not the only cat advocate here... I just blab about it

a lot more than other folks! But I thank you for your kind words. You've made me feel good today. :hug:

[chenGOD]

309. My wife and I try to feed the cats in our neighbourhood....

Here in South Korea cats are not always regarded with a lot of friendliness, Koreans don't have the same experience with keeping pets yet. My wife (who is Korean) and I try to feed the cats as much as possible in the neighbourhood. One of them chose our place to live.

We let him out, cause he wouldn't be happy just staying indoors. He is neutered though.

Bertha Venation, glad that you and many others here on DU care for cats like you do. :)

[BikeWriter]

365. How do you feel about the hundreds of thousands of birds and...

...animals killed by feral cats today? How about their babies starving in their nests? :(

[fleabert]

216. this link is from a biased source, do you have any to the actual studies

these articles refer to? I can't find anything except mention of the data, no actual references.

[BikeWriter]

248. Here's one from Cornell University on the general damages...

Notice all the figures are several years old and have surely increased.


College of Agriculture and Life Sciences

"Introduced cats have also become a serious threat to some native birds and other animals. There are an estimated 63 million pet cats in the United States (Nassar and Mosier 1991), plus as many as 30 million feral cats (Luoma 1997). Cats prey on native birds (Fitzgerald 1990), plus small native mammals, amphibians, and reptiles (Dunn and Tessaglia 1994). Estimates are that feral cats in Wisconsin and Virginia kill more than 3 million birds in each state per year (Luoma 1997). Based on the Wisconsin and Virginia data, we assume that 5 birds are killed per feral cat/year; McKay (1996) reports that pet cats kill a similar number of birds as feral cats. Thus, about 465 million birds are killed by cats per year in the nation. Each adult bird can be valued at $30. This cost per bird is based on the literature that reports that a bird watcher spends $0.40 per bird observed, a hunter spends $216 per bird shot, and specialists spend $800 per bird reared for release; in addition, note that EPA fines polluters $10 per fish killed, including small, immature fish (Pimentel and Greiner 1997). Therefore, the total damage to U.S. bird population is approximately $14 billion/yr. This figure does not include small mammals, amphibians, and reptiles that are killed by feral and pet cats (Dunn and Tessaglia 1994)."











http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan99/species_costs.html

[fleabert]

276. this study also refers to introduced birds...

perhaps some of these birds killed by feral cats are also feral, and not just the cherished songbirds? No problems with the hunters killing birds? Probably not, since they don't go after songbirds.

Reducing the population of feral cats thru humane means, i.e. TNRM programs and education is the only solution IMO.

I don't want any birds killed either, but what about the impact of the environment on them and their habitat? isn't that a larger impact? To condone and encourage mass euthanasia of any animal is despicable, IMO.

[BikeWriter]

370. To condone and encourage mass extinction of our natural fauna...

...is worse, IMO. Feral cats have continued to increase in numbers and prey on them. Meanwhile, the cat groups militantly oppose any other plans but their own.

[fleabert]

280. hmmm....

"Notice all the figures are several years old and have surely increased."

Not if the areas studied had introduced a good TNRM program. Decrease the feral cat numbers and do it humanely...

I cannot get on board with someone who advocates killing innocent animals who had no choice whether or not to be born feral or were dumped by shitty owners. We, as the ones who domesticated these animals, have a responsibility to treat them with respect.

Humans could be considered feral in areas like antarctica, do you want to go kill them too? IMO, we are decimating the entire planet, perhaps we should kill ourselves to save the songbirds.

Please continue to do what you can rehabing the songbirds, since that is obviously your passion - but I hope you never get to make the decision for the rest of us regarding the entire cat population. Stay away from my neighborhood please.

This is really frustrating, because I am actually a big advocate of keeping cats indoors in the city...cars and loose dogs are my reason. But I would never get so preachy with an entire board about how they decide to 'parent' their animals.

I don't even let my dog out in my fenced yard without supervision! (as you can see she is very small)

Hey everyone else!

Support or start your own local Trap Neuter Release Manage Program!
Here's a great one for an example (the one I volunteered with, they are awesome!)
http://www.alleycatadvocates.org/

[BikeWriter]

322. Well-fed Cats Do Kill Birds!

FERAL CAT COLONIES IN FLORIDA: THE FUR AND FEATHERS ARE FLYING

Pamela Jo Hatley

Copyright © 2003 by Florida State University Journal of Land Use and Environmental Law; Pamela Jo Hatley

III. ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF FREE-ROAMING CATS
So what is the harm in allowing cats to roam free outdoors? First, allowing cats to roam free places the cats themselves in danger of harm. The HSUS explains that free-roaming cats often are hit by cars or fall victim to disease, starvation, poisons, attacks by other animals, and mistreatment by humans. Second, free-roaming cats take a tremendous toll on native wildlife populations by direct predation and by competition. Cats are instinctive predators that are able to hunt as effectively as their wild ancestors, and feeding does not suppress the cat's instinct to hunt and kill. It is estimated that nationwide, cats kill over a billion small mammals and hundreds of millions of birds each year.
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arus18jlanduseenvtll441.htm

[notadmblnd]

5. Mine go outside as they please

they have all their shots and are protected against disease. I can't imagine not letting them out. They pretty much stay in the yard, We have a big one. In all the years I've had cats.. I've never lost one to a car.

[BikeWriter]

13. ...no hawks in tha area?

:(

[notadmblnd]

20. I've seen hawks but I've notices no interaction between them and the Cats

Groundhogs are another story though. They're pretty tough little critters but still the cats dont bother them, they don't bother the cats.

[BikeWriter]

23. They don't kill birds?

:(

[notadmblnd]

26. occasionally there'll be a headless blujay on the porch

but only rarely. More baby bunnies have been snagged by my female than birds. I guess she has a taste for rabbit.

[BikeWriter]

34. You're enabling the needless killing of animals? You have no problem...

...with that?

[notadmblnd]

47. no I don't.

bluejays crap all over the place and squawk all day. The rabbits wreaks havoc in the garden. I have no pity, if my vicious killer cat decides to take them out.

[LosinIt]

411. So my cat is larger then any of our Boston Terriers

Should we keep the terriers inside for fear of hawks??

[barb162]

149. what about parasites, like fleas. I used to let my cat go in the

fenced back yard, but he was getting fleas. Fact is raccoons, chipmunks, rabbits, etc.,climb the fence or go under it and if they have the fleas, the fleas can wind up on my cat. I was spending so much money on Advantage every year

[demnan]

6. Mine are safely indoors

I had a bad experence a few weeks ago. I had been taking my cats out on occasion and watching them. My cat Pad Thai went out with me and I looked away and he was gone for six hours. I called and called him, he didn't come back until dinner time. Never again! I could trust the older cat, Lily as she doesn't leave the patio but to be fair now I'm not letting them out anymore.

[BikeWriter]

16. I'm so glad he made it home! So many don't.

:(

[demnan]

37. Yes

I know they love the outdoors and I was hoping that I would be able to control him. I tried putting him on a leash but he figured out how to wiggle out of it (too smart for his own good). It's easy now because it's so cold. This Spring I might get one of those patio enclosures for them to sun in so they can be with me when I'm sitting on the patio.

[BikeWriter]

49. That should keep them out of trouble! :-) n/t

[tsakshaug]

8. indoor only

with no fingers on their front hands

[BikeWriter]

18. Ah, no claws to protect themselves?

[tsakshaug]

27. They still have back claws for some protection

But without fronts they are not safe to go out

[BikeWriter]

35. No, they're not, as claws are little protection from cars and dogs.

:(

[ET Awful]

9. Mine never go outside. . . they'd have to try REALLY hard to get there

They'd first have to get out the apartment door, then down a long hall to either a closed stairwell or an elevator, then they'd have to somehow reach the buttons for that elevator to get to the ground floor, then out :)

There is no balcony, and the windows don't open far enough to give them outside access.

[Lavender Brown]

15. I dunno... those two look crafty.

[ET Awful]

19. They could never work together long enough to do it, they'd end up

attacking each other or taking naps. :)

[BikeWriter]

21. Good! They're much safer with you! :-) n/t

[MissMillie]

10. Inside where they belong

no access to other cats that might be carrying disease

no access to the busy road in front of my home

no access to whatever predators might be lurking outside

[BikeWriter]

25. Thank you, Miss Millie! You're exactly right!

:)

[Maat]

12. None of my cats have ever been outside.

Except to go to the vet, or move (as in I transported them in their safety containers).

Have an 18-year-old in great shape (as well as a 2-year-old, and a 3-year-old).

[BikeWriter]

36. Thank you! That's why they are happy and healthy!

:)

[Maat]

132. Yep.

Count me as part of the Inside Club.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. They Have Never Been Outside. . .

. . .except in the car to go to the vet. Strictly indoor. Have all their fingernails. We do not have any significant damage to anything in the house. Happy little kitties. (Well, not so little. Kind of fat, really.)
The Professor

[BikeWriter]

39. Very good, Prof! Thank you for being a responsible pet owner!

:)

[ProfessorGAC]

129. And, My Doggie Never Goes Out Sans Leash

Once in a while, i will take the leash off him in the backyard and let him run into the garage unfettered. But, i'm 99.9999% sure he's going to make a beeline right into the garage, so it's safe. But, i'd never take him anywhere without the leash. I don't even let him ride in the car without a seatbelt harness.

I try to protect my little beasties. (Well the doggie isn't little. He's a big beastie.)
The Professor

[BikeWriter]

142. Thank you. There are far too many people who are not half so...

responsible.

[Jessica]

17. Inside, but ..

.. we have an enclosed back porch, so I sometimes let her go out there & sniff around, watch the birds, etc. She seems to enjoy it - but that's as far as she goes!

[BikeWriter]

40. Very good, Jessica, and the birds stay alive that way, too!

:)

[MuseRider]

22. I have barn cats

who live in and out. They have never been spotted off my farm. They are all neutered males, there was one female but she disappeared about 4 years ago.:cry: Their food is kept in my heated, air conditioned office area so they do spend most nights inside. If it was a small area I would not have kept them because the risk of getting killed on the road would be high, I would have found them a better home. They stick close by but there is always a risk of preditors. They do have two barns that they have "secret" entrances and exits to and much hay to hide in. I do have some qualms about it, my dogs at home have a fenced backyard and are never allowed to run except for swimming trips to the farm.

[BikeWriter]

30. ...and who protects the song birds and game birds from them?

:(

[MuseRider]

41. They have been pretty easy

on the birds actually. I feed and house the birds and have yet to find little feathers more than once or twice a year. It always makes me sad but mostly they bring rats home. I try to save them too if it is not too late. Believe me I understand your message but then again it is a farm and there are some things that a cat will control that have to be controlled. They keep the possums from my barns and that is very important since they carry bad disease to the horses. They do not kill them, I simply rarely see them in my barns anymore (when I do the cats are actually scared of them). I love being a farm person but I feel very intensly every death of every being and that has been the most difficult of the things I have to deal with.

[BikeWriter]

65. I found the head and wings of a Mockingbird on my porch a few days ago...

...We'd rehabbed a male as a fledgling and he's been nesting in my front yard every summer for years. I suppose he felt safe here. I'm not certain yet if it was him or a mate. :(

[MuseRider]

67. I'm sorry.

Sometimes I think there is something wrong with me. Everytime I drive by a dead animal I get shivers, I simply do not tolerate these things well. I hope it wasn't your rehabbed bird. I love Mockingbirds. I have one that nested by my barn and would imitate me calling in the horses. Cracked me up. Thanks for rehabbing, that is a wonderful and often difficult thing to do.

[BikeWriter]

69. It is when the neighbor's cats eat them...

He fills a feeder in his garage every day. I've counted as many as seven or eight cats in his front yard at once...

[MuseRider]

73. That is a lot

of cats. I certainly see that many once in a while at the farm (the lady across the road does not want to pay for kitty birth control and she has about 15 cats) but I can't imagine seeing that many in a neighborhood yard. Are you rural?

[BikeWriter]

77. It's a neighborhood in a small unincorporated town. This guy has been...

...free feeding cats for the twenty years I've been here. There's no telling how many, if any, have been neutered or are feral. The stench from the cat's spraying is sometimes unbearable, and I gave up gardening in their cat boxes (my flowerbeds) long ago.

[MuseRider]

82. WOW

I do like the idea of him taking care of the ferals but I have not ever experienced the pleasures of spraying. Too bad about the gardening, I am certain you tried everything to stop that. I can't imagine how upsetting that would be. Still, I love that the guy feeds the ferals but perhaps you could convince him to slowly move the feeding area away from the neighborhood?

[BikeWriter]

89. Hee hee hee! That neighbor and I don't get along very well...

A couple of years ago I was out in my yard and he yelled down here that he knew I was trapping his cats. I wasn't, but I was interested in hearing him out. I asked if he'd like to discuss it in the road, rather than yelling at me, but he declined.

[mwdem]

219. Watch out for the possums...

I grew up in the "country", and we had a few cats killed by them. They ripped their abdomens opened, and came back after they died. One of our country cats lived through this. Now, I'm in the suburbs, and my cat is indoors. I do understand about farm cats.

[BikeWriter]

229. Yep, as you know, possums have teeth like a gator...

...they can rip a cat up quick, besides giving them diseases. Thanks for keeping the cat in.

[mwdem]

232. I know where you're coming from,

and I totally agree with you. My cat is carried outdoors every Sat. & Sunday morning to get the paper. She has my SO trained to do this. He lets her go at the end of the driveway, and she bellies up to the front door. That's her outing. Plus, she's declawed (we adopted her that way, I don't agree with that), so her time outside is very limited. Yet, in a farm situation, I would definitly have outside cats. They're natural mousers, and they are very happy to be outside.

[DS1]

101. Who cares?

[BikeWriter]

116. I care, for one. I don't want your cat hurt, and I don't want it eating..

...song birds in my yard. Is that okay with you?

[DS1]

200. I care about your cat, I care about my cat

I care about a lot of cats.

Birds, notsomuch.

[BikeWriter]

221. Our song birds don't deserve protection from alien animals?

:(

[MichaelHarris]

432. Fur and Feathers

great fly tying material, thank you road kill.

[doodadem]

98. Barn kitties

I have 6 indoor cats (declawed), that never get outside. They do get to catch the occasional lizard that is unwise enough to come inside (and one time, a small snake). They have their own big screened in porch from which to watch the bird feeders.
I have one totally blind barn cat that I brought here from the barn we boarded at in Cincy. They were going to be selling that farm, and I knew she wouldn't have a chance. She has her own little "kitty city" in the backyard, safe from coyotes and other predators.
I have one and a half barn cats. There was a beautiful little Siamese that showed up at my barn a year ago. He was freezing, wet, and starving. I started feeding him, and let him live in the hay barn. I said, if you're still here in a couple months, I'll take you for shots and neutering, which I did. He is a terrific barn cat! Really earns his keep by catching all kinds of vermin ( he brought me a fine gopher catch just this morning). When the coyotes are out prowling, he comes into the fenced yard, and gets on top of the kitty city---very savy.
The "one-half" barn cat is a feral one, that comes around occasionally. It took us months to get where we could even touch him, and he still will not tolerate being picked up. We won't see him for a month, and then he'll come every night for a week to be fed. We call him Starvin' Marvin. I think if I shoved him in a crate and took him to the vet, I'd never see him again once I brought him home. At the same time, I worry about him when he shows up with some fresh tom cat injury.
We're not close to any roads at least.

[BikeWriter]

124. Did you know Marvin may kill a song bird each day?

Some interesting facts:
"The United States Humane Society opposes feeding feral cats, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals oppose releasing captured strays and a practice known as TTVAR (for Trap, Test, Vaccinate, Alter and Release) is opposed by American Bird Conservancy, the American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians, the American Ornithologists Union, the Cooper Ornithological Society and the National Association of Public Health Veterinarians. The National Audubon Society provides additional information about the "Cats Indoors" project. Unfortunately programs that support feral cat populations continue to be mounted, even in or near wildlife refuges where the results are devastating for other fauna."
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~insrisg/nature/nw98/cats.html

[LDS Jock]

174. so you are for feral cats starving?

that is very humane

[BikeWriter]

191. I'm for humans being responsible for their cats. n/t

[doodadem]

393. He just might

My dogs also kill the occasional unwary bird around the bird feeders. Are you saying dogs should never go outside either?
My barn cats are actual working cats, doing their job. A barn cat's job is to catch vermin, which in our neck of the woods, includes gophers, groundsquirrels, packrats, and mice. We are overrun with them otherwise. They destroy things--for example, will get under your vehicle and chew up the electrical wiring. They will turn your landscape lunar, dangerous for horses, and I have broken my ankle by stepping in one of their burrows.
I figure if we lose the occasional bird, although I'm not happy about it, I'm saving alot more by my 6 indoor cats being total indoor cats. Now, of these 6, plus the one blind one who has her own condo, 5 of them were former barn cats in Ohio. If I hadn't adopted them, they'd have gone straight to the pound for euthanization. Things even out.
Animals do what animals do. I had a coyote drag my minature dachshund across the fence last year and rip him to pieces. Over $1,000 in vet bills, touch and go. Was I mad as hell? You bet. Am I going to shoot or poison every coyote on my ranch? Wouldn't dream of it.
One other thing, where we are, I am positive that the population of hawks and owls take many, many more birds than my 1 1/2 cats. I've seen them nab them right out of the air.

[MuseRider]

190. Starvin' Marvin

that is really funny. You may be right about catching him but I'll bet he would eventually come back because that is where the food is. They are awfully smart these barn cats.

[Coastie for Truth]

24. My cat is an indoor cat.

I have had seven indoor cats (as many as four simultaneously) and four outdoor cats.

The seven indoor cats outlived the four outdoor cats by a lifespan ratio of 4 to 1.

[BikeWriter]

44. I'm sure they do. How many birds would you think the outdoor ones killed?

:(

[China_cat]

66. One in the last 7 years.

Which matches my dog's record. She jumped up to try to play with a bird and chomped too hard.

Try to remember what happens to populations when they have no predators. And if you can't remember that, look up what happened to Australia when somebody let a couple rabbits go and even the dingos weren't enough to keep them under control.

[BikeWriter]

68. Excuse me. Our wildlife have natural predators. There is no niche...

...in our ecosystems for feral cats. They're as out of place and nearly as destructive as the rabbit in Australia.

[China_cat]

70. If that was true

there'd be no wildlife left. The idea of keeping cats in the house and sterilizing them is one that has only been accepted for less than 50 years.

Since one unneutered cat and her offspring can produce 420,000 kittens in just seven years, you're getting hysterical over nothing.

[BikeWriter]

84. Hysterical? *BW looks around calmly.* Who's hysterical?

Not me.

[Coastie for Truth]

119. Actually - based on my 3 grad courses in ecological engineering

...there is no niche in our ecosystem for humanoids

(especially in the Berkeley Hills above the campus) and the Oakland Hills. The "wilderness fires" should have proved that.

Also along Coast Highway 1 - the landslides should have proved that.

Also in the "True Blue" Bay Area - the San Andreas and Calaveras Faults make that painfully clear.

Loma Prieta was God's wrath on the SF Bay Area and the humanoid invasion.

Go back to Kansas.

[alittlelark]

253. I'm in Los Altos, in the hills... Where are you?

[Coastie for Truth]

384. San Jose--on the proposed BART Line

[ronnykmarshall]

404. There's a BART line going in SJ?

That's only about 40 years behind schedule.

[BikeWriter]

56. Cats are not a natural part of the ecosystem...

Cats are not a natural part of the ecosystem and compete with native predators.

Extensive studies show that approximately 60 to 70 percent of the wildlife cats kill are small mammals, 20 to 30 percent are birds, and up to 10 percent are amphibians, reptiles, and insects.

Researchers at the University of Wisconsin coupled a four-year cat predation study with data from other studies, and predicted a range of values for the number of birds killed each year in the state. By estimating the number of free-ranging cats in rural areas, the number of kills per cat, and the proportion of birds killed, the researchers calculated that rural free-roaming cats kill at least 7.8 million birds and perhaps as many as 217 million birds a year in Wisconsin.

http://www.wildbirds.com/protect_cats.htm

[Coastie for Truth]

60. I have had only indoor cats

since 1954 -- that is fifty one years.

And I have made financially disadvantageous career decisions to work on environmentally clean renewable energy systems. (with the 100% support of my family)

[roseBudd]

29. My 2 cats love outside...

I live on the corner of a dead end street that butts up against a heavily wooded hilly city park. There are no less than 30 cats on my street that are allowed to go outside and the resulting cat territories are very small. The majority never cross the street, since cross the street is some other cat's territory. The cats that that do cross obviously use their hearing to know when cars are approaching as there is a bend in the road and they vacate the street when they hear cars but are not yet able to see them.

Cats love the natural world. I can't imagine a cat that never caught a garter snake, chased a squirrel, climbed a tree.

[BikeWriter]

Tell me, do the garter snakes deserve to be killed?

They are natural fauna, and provide a service to man.

[ulysses]

107. ok, so

should we house every natural predator of the garden snake? Do stray or feral cats killing mice for food bother you?

[BikeWriter]

120. Cats are not a natural predator here. They are an alien feral species...

...and have no business being loose.

[ulysses]

122. should we then shoot them?

I mean, a cat will get loose every now and then, no matter our best intentions. If they're alien, let's do away with them!

[BikeWriter]

133. It's not my job, but I have taken injured, ill, feverish cats found...

...in my yard to the local animal control people. I often wonder how their owners could expose a cherished animal to the dangers of the wild.

[ulysses]

137. how could you expose your cherished songbirds

or garden snakes to the dangers of the wild?

Some cats do the outdoors, some don't. My cat is much happier being able to go out. I won't deny him that.

[BikeWriter]

165. In my opinion, that is dangerous for the cat, and for wildlife. Therefore.

...it is irresponsible pet ownership.

[ulysses]

213. however will I be able to live with myself?

:eyes:

[MidwestMomma]

243. If by alien you mean 'from outer space', I agree...

They are mind-controlling space travelers intent on using the Earth as they're personal hunting grounds and litter box. They've already taken over the minds of millions of humans and convinced them to house and feed them while they work their evil will.

We're doomed!

[alittlelark]

258. ROFLMAO!!

Far too true!!

[roseBudd]

233. garter snakes play dead and the cat loses interest...

Now they have killed a few mice.

[parasim]

31. Inside only

I've always had pets and when I was young they were allowed to go outside at will. Well, after losing 2 cherished dogs to cars, 2 lovely cats to disease and 1 cat severly wounded in a catfight (or with another animal) all while I was young, I never ever let my pets roam free since.

My current cat companion is a healthy 9 years old and loves sitting in the window (screened) watching the outside world safely from within...

[BikeWriter]

48. Thank you! You learned they're better off inside.

:)

[fertilizeonarbusto]

33. My kitties do not go out n/t

[BikeWriter]

71. That's great! Pets should be kept in and protected.

:-)

[TNDemo]

38. Mine has access to indoors or outdoors.

There is a doggie door built into the master bedroom (by the original owner) that goes out into a fenced back yard. It is a wooden privacy fence and my cat is too fat to attempt to climb anything. The back yard is very bird and butterfly friendly so my cat is endlessly fascinated. We just moved here a few months ago and she used to spend her time lying in the open bathroom window. She felt pretty unsafe outdoors with no fence and a lot of dogs in the neighborhood. She really loves the access to outdoors and I will hear the flap on the doggie door in the middle of the night when she gets frisky. It has also had the added benefit of her not waking us up. She used to romp on us in the morning but now she just goes out.

[BikeWriter]

80. So, she seems too fat or too lazy to catch birds? n/t

[TNDemo]

86. Yes - no bird catching here.

She loves watching them and salivates but she has never caught one or even gone after one to my knowledge. That would require too much exertion.

[BikeWriter]

96. I can live with that. :-) n/t

[redqueen]

42. My cats are all indoor cats.

I'd like to build a screened-in porch for them to enjoy someday.

[BikeWriter]

85. I'm sure they'd enjoy that! Thank you for keeping them safe.

:)

[windlight]

43. my cat

Love riding on my lap on the Motorcycle..:).. She hates the car but a cycle...no problem..:).... (I only did it once and it was early Feb in Wyoming and about 15 blocks...) Otherwise she is inside all the time just likes looking out the windows...

[BikeWriter]

92. She's a motocycle kitty? You don't see many of those.

I'm glad she's kept safely indoors. :)

[Samurai_Writer]

45. Mine are never outside

Nightmare, who is almost 15. She has hyperthyroidism and lost a lot of weight last year, but is holding steady at 6.5 pounds now, and doing well. Hates the dog and hisses anytime he comes near her. She's the matriarch of the family, after all.




Smoke, Nightmare's son, who is almost 14, and acts more like he's 4. Still goes on those kitty-tearing-running-around-the-house benders at least twice a day, and is very affectionate. Jealous if anyone else, human or animal, is getting attention and he is not.




Magic, who just turned 5 and I've had for 1 year. Great dog, loves the cats (even though they don't reciprocate), and is the only animal that gets to go out, ALWAYS on a leash.

[kslib]

46. Thanks for this thread!

I was feeling guilty about "indoor only!" rules, even though I knew they were safer that way. Good to see others that agree! Mine are indoor cats, but I'm building an outdoor enclosure that should be ready by spring!

[BikeWriter]

54. Very good, and please help spread the word! Pet cats belong inside...

...feral and free ranging cats kill millions of songbirds each year!

[Tsiyu]

63. Birds and rodents are now prime disease carriers

Did you know that the areas struck worst by "The Black Plague" were those that got rid of all cats? I hate rodents. More than I love birds. And the high trees around here are quite a deterrent, thanks.

Automobiles kill birds, deer, beaver, etc., etc., etc. Should I stop driving as well?

[BikeWriter]

72. Excuse me? We have owls, hawks, oppossums, snakes, skunks...

...and other animals to control the rodent population. Cats have no place in our ecosystem.

[Tsiyu]

78. And these critters come right up to your house and kill mice?

Wow. Cool.

With your logic, there's no place for man, either. Some folks choose to get real judgemental about others' imperfections or differences. You seem to view this as a vital issue.

Carry on.

I just think you're rather rigid on the issue, but more power to you... Maybe I should take all my outdoor cats to the shelter, by the way, where they'd be killed after three days? But you didn't say whether that would make me a better person....

[BikeWriter]

83. Consider the wild animals that belong here...

...and are killed by the millions by feral cats eavh year, and then you tell me.

[baba]

87. You do seem more concerned about the birds than the cats!

My cats go out into a courtyard. They need exercise. If I could do it all over again, I would probably raise them as indoor cats. But now, they are old and set in their ways. Neither has gotten a bird in years.

[BikeWriter]

94. As long as they're on their owner's property and confined...

I have no problem with cats. When they're pooping in my flower beds, spraying my door and window screens, and eating song birds in my yard, I do. Is that too unreasonable?

[Mallifica]

118. then this is really a discussion

that should be taken up with YOUR neighbors . . .

[BikeWriter]

188. ...and how do you know you're not my neighbor?

;-)

[Texasgal]

337. I think I would have to

KILL myself if you were my neighbor......

[BikeWriter]

354. I would never encourage that. You could keep your cats out of my yard...

...and we'd get along fine.

[Texasgal]

356. No.....

I don't think we would ever get along, I think I would rather die.

[BikeWriter]

357. Okay, if that's what you want to do.

:(

[Scout]

360. just what every "smart woman" would do!

die rather than be responsible for her pets, and try to get along with a neighbor making reasonable requests about said pets staying off his property...

I'm glad I'm not a smart woman like you! :eyes:

[BikeWriter]

362. Thank you, Scout. I'm not as evil as some of these people seem to think.

All I'm asking for is some ethical consideration for our natural birds and animals, and our property. :(

[Texasgal]

367. I never said you were evil

I said I would rather die..... and I still would. You are unreasonable.

Feral cats have a right to live too, and the people who work hard to trap and neuter them don't deserve your judgment.

I prefer to live next to nice, REASONABLE people, and from what I can see here..... you are not one of those.

[BikeWriter]

373. Trap, neuter, release enables further predation on threatened species!

It also has been interpreted as abandonment and abuse by many.

[Texasgal]

366. Sorry Scout........

But I truley don't think she is being resonable at all.

She thinks we should have a mass killing of feral cats. Sorry, but I would rather die than to be stuck living next door to this kind of unreasonable nonsense.

She really should be kissing the behinds of people who trap and nueter these cats instead of chastising them. Sorry... no sympathy here.

[Dookus]

50. nope...

three cats, indoor/outdoor. Two stay very close to home, one wanders.

I've had cats for 20 years, lost two: one to cancer, one to diabetes, both aged 16.

[BikeWriter]

74. I once asked a neighbor politely to keep his big beautiful Tom cat...

...out of my yard. I told him I was afraid my dog would hurt him. My dog was confined in a six foot tall cedar fence I built all around my yard. He told me no dog alive could hurt his cat, he was too big and too bad. Not so...

[liberal43110]

51. Scooter is an indoor cat!

My little one stays indoors. Like arcane1 wrote above, sometimes I let him go on the balcony supervised. I've read how dangerous that can be because cats could jump at a bird or an animal or something. So for the first couple years I would let him on the balcony with me, but I still really worried. But after years and years, I know my little Scooter...he just likes to go out and sniff for a couple minutes, and he's such a mama's boy that he doesn't jump at anything. He's scared if he sees a spider.

[BikeWriter]

90. Hurray for Scooter! I have no problems at all with a cat like that.

:)

[GardeningGal]

53. I adopted my cat from PetsMart five or six years ago

She was rescued from death row at the municipal shelter when she was about 8 months old. She has always been an indoor cat. Then I inherited my mother's min. schnauzer mix dog who CONSTANTLY wanted to be let in and out.

I finally broke down and installed a doggy door and made sure my cat was up to date on shots, etc. because I was worried she would see the others (I also have 2 shih tzus)use it and start going outside. Well, no need to worry because I've had it about six months and she's never even tried to go out of it. So, happily my cat is still and indoor cat!

[BikeWriter]

113. I'm glaf it wants to stay inside. It's dangerous out there for a kitty.

:)

[flvegan]

55. I care for 5 outside cats that have adopted me, so to speak.

They're vaccinated and fixed, and quite well-fed.

That being said, having read your previous responses, bear in mind that the alternative to that is them being dead. They aren't adoptable. Now, that being said, they aren't native species, but then, neither are we. I'm not making the choice to have them euthanized, granted, and their natural predatory instincts will cause them to kill species of birds, lizards, etc. Feel free to blame me for their deaths. My conscience is clear.

[Bertha Venation]

57. We let one cat roam during the day, and allow two others out for short

jaunts.

They were all strictly indoors until recently. Daddy, the roamer, was a stray for god knows how long before we adopted him. He's neutered but he's such an alpha cat that when he goes out side, he picks fights w/ unaltered toms and backs them down. So he was picking very badly on our Richard, and they'd fight all the time. Then Richard got a behavioral problem and ruined our couch.

So when the weather allows it, Daddy goes out at will during the daytime.

Richard and Harry are allowed out for short periods during the day, but only when the weather's good.

We're not spectacularly happy to be letting some cats out, but it's important to the cats' happiness, and it's certainly important to household peace.

[Tsiyu]

59. I admit, I am a terrible, heinous individual

The cats come inside to eat only.

Tough titty, kitty. Cats die INDOORS as well as outdoors, for one thing. For another, cats are natural predators and to be confined indoors often makes them fat and lazy and unfit.

Thirdly, they are destructive and their waste STINKS. Outside, please, for that.

I did accidentally run over one but she is fine now and stays away from the car. I just gave one of the cats to my folks, who can afford a vet, and the vet said the cat had NO PARASITES, was larger ( not fatter) than normal, and was negative for feline leukemia as well as healthy and strong.

So, call me whatever evil thing you like. I could take them all to the shelter where they'd be killed. Would that make you feel better about me?

[BikeWriter]

95. Are your cats invading my yard? If so, how do you think I feel about you?

...and how do you think I feel when I see a kitty flattened in the road? :(

[ulysses]

115. I'm confused.

Are you more worried about the fate of the wild fauna (if garter snakes deserve to live, shouldn't they all be brought in in turn to protect the mice on my property?) or about the cat shit in your yard?

[BikeWriter]

155. I'm concerned about the environment in general, and cats are...

...an invasive species that suffers immeasurably in the wild, while destroying native species. The cat shit in my yard is another irritant, yes.

[Tsiyu]

128. Uh, I live in the deep dark woods where people

don't want to eat off their lawns. My cats have acres to play on before they enter anyone's yard. Around 10 cars a day come down this road, most driven by animal owners.

Again, should I just take them to the shelter since I'm not doing it right?

[BikeWriter]

227. If they are indiscriminately killing wildlife the ethical thing to do..

...would be to keep them under control.

[flvegan]

238. Your posts alluding to control bore me

Define control.

[BikeWriter]

307. Control as in preventing your cat from being run over, ingesting poison...

...being killed by a dog, raccoon, possum, skunk, owl, or hawk. Control as in preventing your cat from killing wildlife or fouling your neighbor's property. You know, ethical and responsible pet ownership.

[flvegan]

308. That isn't remotely what you were alluding to.

You just don't want to say it. You want ferals (or any outside cat) eliminated. Tell you what, out in Oakland, the Pomo Indians want to build a casino next to some wetlands that have many wonderful species of animals, birds included. There's your threat (as I've stated in this misguided thread a few times already), now go dump 250 e-mails on those fellas.

[BikeWriter]

313. If you don't want to see my posts saying cat owners should be...

responsible for their animals no one is forcing you to. There are many in this thread agreeing with me. :)

[Tsiyu]

261. Well then, the bobcat, mountain lion, bear, bluejay

boar, coyote, fox and snake around here are indiscriminately killing as well. Who controls them?

I did not introduce the cats to America, unfortunately. I'm dealing with others' outcasts. Today, I almost hit a shepherd stray ( or dump off.) He is now in my living room with a full belly.

I care for two horses, three dogs ( plus strays that wander here from time to time), an iguana ( who just got a new heat lamp that doesn't emit light!) and five cats. Can't bring 'em all in the house, nor would I.

I just do the best I can..

Now, you want to know my pet peeve? Asswipes who drive through neighborhoods where kids play at 90 miles an hour. THAT'S something to get up in arms over.

[BikeWriter]

314. Can you replace the Mockingbird in my front yard my neighbor's cat...

...killed? I can't either. What I can do is try to get cat owners to act responsibly! Are those outside cats of yours killing birds?

[Bertha Venation]

151. a note about cats invading your yard

It may not make any difference to your stand on the obliteration of song birds, but please make a note of this fact:

If you ever see a stray/feral cat with one ear a tad shorter than the other -- the ear looks like it's had the tip chopped off? That's because it's more than likely a TNR feral. A member of a cared-for feral colony that has been spayed or neutered.

People who perform TNR have the cat's left ear tipped (about 2 mm cut off) during surgery as a message to people who hate stray cats that this cat cannot reproduce.

Consider yourself educated: don't harm a cat w/ a tipped ear.

[BikeWriter]

234. Consider yourself educated: I haven't mentioned my harming a cat...

...The tipped ear won't slow its killing birds by one microsecond. You'd do better turning it in.

[flvegan]

239. Not specifically, no. However, your desire for

mass euthanasia could tip the scales towards you lobbying for harming a cat.

[BikeWriter]

249. Okay, and many here jest about the extinction of native species!

I submit feral felines are thriving, with the help of cat owners, while bird stocks are dwindling.

[alittlelark]

263. That's what my vet does too, but some make a 'V'

Which can be easily mistaken for a fighting injury. My TNR in the creek by our house is 14 so far.... The trapped kitten rate is now 5 per year... down from the mid 20's.

[Bertha Venation]

297. YOU ROCK.

Lark, would you be interested in sharing notes w/ me? I'm pretty new to TNR and it's rather frustrating... for example, we have one queen who, it seems, just won't get into the trap unless it's at a time when we know she's got tiny kittens somewhere. Obviously we can't take her away from them at that time. If she'd get in there when she's preggers, we'd have no problem. We also have a tom who freaked when we trapped him, and we had to let him go lest he hurt himself while freaking in the trap.

So if you are interested in sharing your experiences, by PM or email, I'd surely dig it.... any help you can offer. :hi:

[BikeWriter]

375. Would you like to discuss the birds and animals those cats killed...

...that day? How about their babies starving to death in their nests?

[alittlelark]

260. But, at least the songbirds that the cat would have killed are saved!!!!

<sarcasm>

How do you know that the flattened kitty had not figured out how to make the great escape (many indoor cats try regularly) and had NO knowledge of the real world? There could be a sobbing owner and their children in the morning.

[Bouncy Ball]

61. Our cats (now cat, singular) are always indoor cats.

Too many dangers outdoors.

[patdem]

62. When my cats were kittens I lived in a 2nd floor apartment and two

fell out the window and NEVER moved from under the window, just howlled and cried pitifully till I discovered them and went down to rescue them. They have NEVER since been outside, except in the spring or summer when I sit on the porch (I live in my house now) and they NEVER leave my side. All four are fixed and two are over 15 years old one about 5 years old and the youngest about 2 - but he is the biggest!

[Lisa0825]

75. My kitty only goes in the yard with me,

and I have to leave the door open, because she darts back inside if she gets spooked. While she likes exploring the yard once in a while, she's definitely an indoor kitty. I also have several ferals I feed, and I worry about them when I don't see them for a while, but I can't afford to take them in.

[ronnykmarshall]

76. Inside cats.

We live in the city. But I'd never have outdoor cats.

[ScreamingMeemie]

79. I don't live on a farm, so Mr Merlin lives indoors where he belongs.

Perhaps it'd be different if we had a barn.

[Mr. McD]

81. Mine has a cat door and can come and go as he pleases

I would never be so cruel as to keep such a free spirit in a cage.

[BikeWriter]

325. Allowing a "free spirit" to kill birds is okay? n/t

[Mr. McD]

355. Well they are part of the food chain aren't they

though they are a small part of a cats diet. Cats also eat a lot of insects. I encourage and reward my cats for killing gophers and moles.

[BikeWriter]

395. It's not an unlimited food chain. Some of these animals are extinct. Ha ha

:(

[Scout]

328. If it's such a "free spirit" why are you even keeping it as a pet at all?

would it not be more kind to allow the free spirit to roam and do as it will, without your interference of feeding it and giving it shelter when it wants it?

If cats are indeed such wild, free spirits who just must hunt, then they should not be kept as pets at all, hmmmmm?

[Mr. McD]

358. It's his choice, he is free to leave.

I suspect he finds some advantage in sticking around.

[Allenberg]

88. These two lazy bums?

They've never been outdoors since we got them from the base animal shelter, and never will. They still have their claws though, as I don't believe in de-clawing a cat.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

91. I have three that have never been outside in their lives.

One who I rescued as an outdoor kitty from my neighbors. She will sneak out if you're not really careful.

I worry too much to let them be indoor/outdoor cats. :shrug:

[tonekat]

93. Yes and no....

This is a constant source of debate between Mrs. Tonekat and myself. I'm overprotective, and a worrier. Our recently departed 18 year old black cat insisted on going outside since his adoption at one year of age. I figure he was living on the streets for awhile, and there was no keeping him inside. In our first house, where we had a pet door in the basement, he had total in/out priviledges. We would be lying in bed late at night, when we would hear the pet door bang. It seemed like nary a nanosecond would pass and he was lying on top of us....as though he materialized through the floor, that's how fast he was.
Jello, our 8 yr old is a master hunter. He has caught over a hundred voles since we moved to this house at the end of 1995, not to mention other members of the food chain. Mostly it's those peaky voles, and he brings them to us as tribute. We tell people we keep them in the freezer for a future "shrew stew".
We have foxes in the neighborhood, and shortly after he came into our lives, we were coming back to our house from our "night watch" patrol, when we spotted him in the headlights, sitting in the neighbors lawn, looking at another animal sitting about two feet away. "Who's buff colored cat is that sitting near him?" I said. "That's not a cat, that's a fox!" was my wife's reply. We stopped, I got out, walked over and picked him up (my cat not the fox) and brought him back to the car.
We are starting to get coyotes in the neighborhood, so I'm keeping a pretty tight leash on him, and no going out at night any more.
The new 6 mo old kitten shows signs of being a hunter, but it will be awhile before she gets a taste of the yard.

[davidinalameda]

97. inside

it's safer for them

[noonwitch]

99. My cat is an indoor cat

She only got out once, and that was about 3 months ago. I panicked. She was on the porch, meowing because she was cold. I think she was only out for about 10 minutes. She's a very little cat, I don't want her out and about.

I feed a stray cat, have been doing so since she was a kitten. I'd take her in, but can't afford another vet bill. There are a lot of strays in my neighborhood, but I only feed her and any baby kittens I see. I try to get neighbors to take the kittens, though, and am usually successful.

[Catbird]

100. Cats Indoors! Campaign

The American Bird Conservancy has a Cats Indoors! campaign. Web page is http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/. They have lots of information, propaganda, outdoor enclosures for sale, etc. I looked through previous messages for a mention of this but didn't find one. If I overlooked one, I apologize.

Our cat stays inside. She does not completely agree with our stand on this and will sometimes sneak out if we turn our backs. (If we watch her, she doesn't go out.) She does get to go out on a screened porch, however.

[BikeWriter]

136. Thank you for posting that, Catbird! Keeping cats indoors is the...

responsible thing to do. :)

[huskerlaw]

102. Indoors only...

Unless I strap on his harness and take him for a "walk"...which consists of about 10 minutes out on the patio before he freaks out and wants back inside. I find this keeps him from trying to run out the door every time it opens. :)

[GreenPartyVoter]

103. Mine are in, except for that one time Pretzel escaped. But we got him

back in one piece.

------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[ulysses]

104. y'know,

we kept Mr. K inside for the first 4 years of his life, and he HATED it. I mean he was miserable - claw the hell out of the front door jamb miserable. Piss on things miserable. Bite you for no reason miserable.

In 1997, we got him his feline leukemia vaccination and started letting him outside. Even considering a couple of close calls with our neighbors' weimaraners, he's been a much happier cat. Quality of life. He's pretty car savvy, and he'll turn 12 in February or March. He probably spends 15-20% of his time outside.

Quality of life.



In fact, horrible person that I am, I just let him out. He's sunning himself on the back deck.

[loudestchick]

109. Exactly!!! We could make everything much safer if we control ...

EVERYTHING!!

[ulysses]

112. LOL!

Sometimes, you've just gotta let go of your fears for the good of all. :)

[BikeWriter]

193. Your cat's yen to roam is more important than your neighbor's property..

...rights? Your cat's yen to roam is more important than the lives of the local wildlife?

[ulysses]

217. actually, we all tend to share our yards

with each others' cats. No one here seems to mind much. And the local wildlife can easily sustain the couple of birds and chipmunks that the cats catch.

It's amazing that we all get along at all...

[BikeWriter]

237. Are the cats only catching a "couple of birds and chipmunks"

"A revealing article by Pat Roberto on the California Department of Fish and Game website begins: " When she lived in Forestville, a small town in Sonoma County, Marilyn Davis was known as a friend to cats. She took in strays at the house she and her husband had built by a creek and in time there were twelve. The Davises and the cats lived happily enough until Marilyn saw a troubling pattern: rabbits, quail, varied thrushes, even snakes and frogs were being dragged over her threshold from the creekside. Because she was also a friend of wildlife, Davis reluctantly confined the most active hunters indoors, but the other cats only seemed to take up the slack. More and more wildlife arrived DOA on her doorstep. More and more cats were brought inside for good until only a few old fat ones were left lolling around on the deck. Whatever flew over their heads, though, they swatted and swallowed, almost in one motion. Finally she faced the truth: "This is their nature, every one of them. They're hunters."

http://www.holisticbirds.com/hbn03/spring03/pages/feralcats.htm

[ulysses]

240. well, there ARE the occasional small children...

:scared:

[loudestchick]

106. I have had a number of cats over the years some inside and some

that enjoy the great outdoors...we have lost some to cars...we have lost some to unknown causes...we currently have 2 cats one of whom eyes the door w/ suspicion and one who would knock down my dogs to get outside...I also feed the birds, the feeders are kept a sufficient distance from kitty launching places...

there is a circle of life at work in the animal kingdom...small birds get eaten, I also am an avid gardener, those damn pesky birds eat the insects which are a part of the yard's ecosystem.

Lay off the "horrible" owners of indoor/outdoor kitties.

[BrklynLiberal]

110. I have owned 7 cats over the past 11 years, and not one of them has ever

been outside.

[Butterflies]

111. Always indoors except . . .

I walk my Maine Coon on a leash around the yard sometimes because I started doing that when he was a kitten and he expects it now. My other cat has never been outside so she's afraid of it. Both cats are healthy, and they sharpen their claws on one of my living room couches (I gave them one for that purpose.)

[Cush]

117. We let Bear out in the backyard

he just sits on the deck or in the grass, he's never tried to hop the fence or anything, but we do keep an eye on him and the he sits by the door or on the bottom step when he's ready to come in

[barb162]

146. My friend in Indianapolis had a 14 year old cat who only went as far

as the front door chair on the porch where she would sleep in the sun in warm weather. Last summer she was killed (torn apart) by two stray dogs who came up on to the porch. My friend rushed to the front door when she heard the screaming and noise but it was too late.

[slackmaster]

121. Two indoor-only and one indoor/outdoor

Somebody has to protect the vegetable garden from wabbits.

[pookieblue]

123. Two cats- Indoors only.

The oldest how will be 13 this year never even thinks of going outside.
To him Outside or the Front Door = The Vet. He prefers to watch the world from his cat hammock in the window.

My younger cat is going to be 5 this year. He's a bit curious, but for the most part he only wants outside when I'm outside.

They have tons and tons of toys and perchs in the windows.

The older one is a lazy bum but the young one is hyper.

I live in town and think it's far too dangerous to let an animal roam the streets. People drive like madmen here, there a few rather large dogs roaming the neighborhood plus there has been quite a few pets killed by scum. (One scumbucket put a firecracker up a dog's ummm nether regions and you guess the rest). Right now, it's not safe to leave your pet's alone. I'm glad that I don't have a dog, because I would fear living them in the yard alone while I'm gone for the day.

I think it would be different if I had enclosed porch or live out in the country. But I don't.

[dpbrown]

125. ....get shot

They kill natural wild animals like songbirds for fun. There's no place in the world for housecats that turn feral.

[BikeWriter]

166. Precisely, DP. Thank you.

:)

[flvegan]

192. Considering that

People (the most destructive "force" to your songbirds, etc) are also non-native, and also kill wildlife for fun, you'd advocating shooting them too, I suppose?

I do appreciate your concern, and understand your point, but I think that your hostility (with some) is misdirected.

[dpbrown]

401. People can do several things cats can't

In case you haven't noticed, people can rebuild habitat, reintroduce native species, and keep their feline indiscriminate killing machines safely locked inside.

So since people have both the reflective capacity toward their actions and the mechanical ability to right their wrongs that cats don't, your analogy fails.

And of course, people can help songbirds by shooting marauding cats they catch preying on them.

[ulysses]

134. this is amusing.

Nature lovers who want to restrain or kill certain animals so that their reverie with birds isn't disturbed.

I've got nothing against songbirds, but I hope y'all don't spend too much time out in nature. :D

[slackmaster]

140. Songbirds are OK but I prefer communing with the rattlesnakes

:evilgrin:

[sparky_in_ma]

141. Mine stays inside

There are too many coyotes, and bears ,around the neighborhood.:scared:

[barb162]

143. indoor only

[HeatherG.]

152. 2 Indoor 1 Indoor/Outdoor

My old cat is allowed to go outdoors whenever she wants. I trust her. I adopted her because she kept hanging out in our yard and was hungry. The elderly lady she belonged to was no longer able to take good care of her. So, she decided to move in on us. She is a very cautious animal, which is why she got to be so old. I am not going to let my younger female out. I got her when she was a kitten and am terrified that she would get hit by a car. She has an impulsive personality, and I have a feeling she would run out into the street or pick fights with bigger animals. My 9 month old male is going to stay indoors too. He was born at the Humane Society and has never been outside. He is completely innocent to the dangers of the outside world. Eventually, I would like to get a cat fence, so all my cats can enjoy the outdoors without me worrying.

[deadparrot]

156. My kitty goes in and out.

She was a year or two when we adopted her, and had been an indoor cat until that point. But she kept hanging around the door, especially in the spring and summer, so we let her run around under close supervision. Ten years later, I couldn't imagine her being strictly an indoor cat.

[fleabert]

168. after reading the whole thread...

I encourage you to read this, from the Humane Society's web site.
http://files.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/PUBS_Slater2.pdf

With a well funded and staffed TNR + management program, and removal & adoption of adoptable ferals from the colony, the number of feral cats may finally begin to be reduced. Isn't that the common ground for everyone?

I have volunteered for a TNR, it was a blessing for those cats...to be alive yet not struggling with heats, pregnancies, nursing, fighting for territory, starvation, etc...

What is the alternative that does not include mass euthanasia? (and that 'solution' hasn't worked yet, the numbers just keep increasing) Eventually, if everyone did TNR with feral colonies, the numbers would dwindle, and your birds would have less threats. Please let me know if there is another alternative that works as well or better, because I will support it!

BTW- edited to add, I am a big advocate of city cats staying indoors, they don't need to run into a feral colony that hasn't been fixed yet!

[BikeWriter]

198. I don't understand your post. I fail to see the logic of it.

You say:
"What is the alternative that does not include mass euthanasia? (and that 'solution' hasn't worked yet, the numbers just keep increasing)"

Mass euthanasia is the only way you'll ever make a dent in the huge cat population. It's illogical to say it doesn't work. What doesn't work is you are expending vital resources on maintaining destructive feral killing machines.

[Gemini Cat]

201. That's just cruel.

Mass euthanasia indeed.

Damn.

[BikeWriter]

207. Hundreds of thousands of song birds are killed daily by pet cats...

Their owners are allowing to run loose. That isn't cruel?

[flvegan]

210. Many of these cats don't have "owners"

But caretakers (in the feral colonies).

You've chosen a particular animal to care about. That's wonderful. I see that you've done rehabbing. Even more wonderful, and I praise you for that. Feral cats share the same inherent right to life as those songbirds. We humans, defilers of the earth that we are, have created this problem, and we shouldn't defer to killing our way out of it. Your suggesting that a mass euthanasia movement is frightening.

Your real enemy, or rather the real enemy to your songbirds and other cat-prey is human development of habitat. Why not make a post asking if folks have bought a newly build house in a new subdivision? How about asking if they've shopped at a newly developed mall or Walmart? Those are the biggest threats with whom you should have a bone of contention.

If you want to see real cruelty to birds, go visit an egg production facility and view the battery hens. Oh, wait, they aren't songbirds...so you likely won't care.

[BikeWriter]

299. Feral cats share the same right to life as songbirds? Excuse me?

Not when they are killing those songbirds into extinction! Feral cats do not belong in the wild in America!

[flvegan]

304. You blame the entire problem on feral cats.

Look under your feet. See that? That's your floor. Human development destroying their habitat is their biggest threat. But the egomaniacs that we are, simply REFUSE to stop, so we point our wicked little fingers at another culprit. Another culprit, who only exists, btw, because of us, as well.

Feral cats are just an easy, voiceless bullseye for you and your ilk.

[BikeWriter]

350. Me and my ilk? You mean the folks concerned about predation of...

our native species by unwanted alien feral and roaming cats? I'm proud to be on the responsible side of this.

[fleabert]

211. we were discussing feral cats...not pets.

or are you also advocating for the euthanasia of all cats?

[BikeWriter]

300. I am advocating cat owners be responsible for their pets!

If they had been fifty years ago millions of feral cats would not be dying each year of starvation, injury, and disease. They would not be killing upwards of a billion birds each year, either.

[ScreamingMeemie]

215. Hundreds of thousands of song birds are killed by hawks, falcons, eagles

and disease a year...Do you propose that we put these "killer birds" to death? Circle of life. Life.

[achtung_circus]

250. I used to respond yearly to a woman who wrote a letter to the editor

in Saskatoon. She was a proponent of shotgunning the 30 or so pairs of Merlins that live in the river valley. Her rationale? They ate songbirds.

Some birds are more equal than others, apparently.

[BikeWriter]

301. Those "killer birds" are our native predators. Not an alien, invasive...

...species, which cats are!

[Gemini Cat]

220. It's pet cats now?

I thought you were discussing ferals being mass euthanized. :wtf:
Have any idea what you are discussing?

Whatever, I'll still feed my inside cats and the outside cats.

[BikeWriter]

347. ...and your outside cats will continue to kill our vanishing wildlife...

...and be killed by the hazards outdoors.

[fleabert]

209. well...we have been euthanizing feral cats for years,

and the populations only increase. If you read the link I gave, the Humane society does endorse and support TNR + management of feral cat colonies. It makes plenty of sense, if all cats are neutered, then eventually, the populations will decrease as the colonies die naturally. These are managed colonies, not abandoned ones.

It is not logical or caring in my opinion to advocate mass killing of cats to provide protection to birds, neither should be more protected than the other. The link I provided mentions the studies you cite regarding the numbers of birds killed by feral cats, it states that the majority of those studies were conducted on islands, and cannot be used comparitively to current, city dwelling feral populations. The numbers are understood by the Humane Society to be lower than those you provide.

The cats that you seem to be most in favor of killing, the ones your neighbor supports, are most likely not 'fixed', as they continue to spray. To the best of my knowledge, this either stops or is greatly inhibited in neutered cats as they are not inclined to mark territory if they are not trying to mate.

I cannot condone the mindset that these cats would be better off killed than cared for. There are bird populations that are not indigenous to the area in which they live, do you think they should be captured and killed too?

"birds such as the African grey parrot, common to pet stores, who destroys palm trees, and consumes the food supply of native birds."
http://www.american.edu/TED/florida.htm

"bulbuls(related to finches), and tropical fish would be innocuous in most regions of the U.S., because of the local climate. In Florida, these animals have thrived and spread, suffocating local species."
http://www.american.edu/TED/florida.htm

Birds. Approximately 97 of the 1,000 bird species in the United States are exotic (Temple 1992). Of the approximately 97 introduced bird species, only 5%, including chickens, are considered beneficial. Most (56%), though, are considered pests (Temple 1992). Pest species include the pigeon, which was introduced into the United States for agricultural purposes.

Introduced bird species are an expecially severe problem in Hawaii. A total of 35 of the 69 non-indigenous bird species introduced between 1850 and 1984 in Hawaii are still extant on the islands (Moulton and Pimm 1983; Pimm 1991). One such species, the common myna (Acridotheres tristis), was introduced to help control pest cutworms and armyworms in sugarcane (Kurdila 1995). However, it became the major disperser of seeds of an introduced serious weed, Lantana camara. In the continental United States, the English or house sparrow (Passer domesticus) was introduced in 1853 to control the canker worm (Laycock 1966; Roots 1976). By 1900, the had become pests because they damage plants around homes and public buildings and consume wheat, corn, and the buds of fruit trees (Laycock 1966). Furthermore, English sparrows harass native birds, including robins, Baltimore orioles, yellow-billed cuckoos, and black-billed cuckoos, and displace native bluebirds, wrens, purple martins, and cliff swallows from their nesting sites (Laycock 1966; Roots 1976; Long 1981). They are also associated with the spread of about 29 human and livestock diseases (Weber 1979).

The single-most serious pest bird in the United States is the exotic common pigeon (Columba livia) that exists in most cities of the world, including those in the United States (Robbins 1995). Pigeons are considered a nuisance because they foul buildings, statues, cars, and sometimes people, and feed on grain (Long 1981; Smith, 1992). The control costs of pigeons are at least $9 per pigeon per year (Haag-Wackernagel 1995). Assuming 1 pigeon per ha in urban areas (Johnston and Janiga 1995) or approximately 0.5 pigeons per person, and using potential control costs as a surrogate for losses, pigeons cause an estimated $1.1 billion/yr in damages. These control costs do not include the environmental damages associated with pigeons, which serve as reservoirs and vectors for over 50 human and livestock diseases, including parrot fever, ornithosis, histoplasmosis, and encephalitis (Weber 1979; Long 1981).

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan99/species_costs.html

(this site also has information about feral and household cats as introduced species)

so...after all that...what is the answer that doesn't involve massive killing of either? TNR + management and public education about the issue. I am not denying that this is a problem. I am saying that killing them will not stop the problem from continuing.

[Piltdown13]

279. In fact, mass euthanasia doesn't work

It's basically impossible to round up all the ferals in most colonies at once, and even if you could, the empty territories would quickly become overrun with cats from nearby areas. The reason trap-neuter-release works is that the altered cats are returned to their old territories, where they exclude other ferals while NOT reproducing, and the TNR program can then move on to the next neighborhood. Eventually, you end up with non-reproductive feral colonies over a pretty wide area, which will eventually die out after several years.

The rate of increase for a wild cat population is such that if you just kill a group of ferals, the ones you don't get (and you won't get them all) will rapidly expand to fill that niche. For euthanasia to work, you'd have to basically implement a massive blitzkrieg-like killing drive over a wide area, which is rather unfeasible given limited resources...and even if you did that, I suspect that ferals on the borders of your operation would start the process all over again.

Trap-neuter-release is not a magic bullet, but if you're really interested in decreasing the feral population, it works much better than indiscriminately killing the ferals you catch. There will always be more born, and at least with TNR the rate of increase is kept down, and a more stable population management plan can be implemented. With mass euthanasia, you'll always be putting out fires, so to speak.


Edited to add: I am, of course, a strong advocate of TNR, having seen some pretty awful stuff while volunteering at the animal shelter (we were right next door to the pound/animal control too...yikes). My folks have done TNR with the ferals that lived around their backyard, as well as those living in the alley behind their office; I think they must be up around 20 "fixed" by now, with about 6-7 kittens that became tame enough to be adopted. And, guess what? No new kittens in either place for about 3 years (5 years for their house and neighborhood).

My own cats are strictly indoor, except when we put on the harness and leash and "go for a walk" (meaning we follow them around the yard in a random, wandering manner). Our front door is about 20 feet from a really busy street, and there are plenty of wandering neighbor cats and dogs as well, so no wandering. I can, however, understand why people who live in rural areas let their cats out, and I totally get the whole barn cat thing. I'd have trouble letting my two guys out unsupervised no matter where I lived, though.

[LynneSin]

170. My cats came from out there, you could open the door wide open

and they would go run & hide under my bed.

[crispini]

173. You know, I think I've finally figured out what's annoying

about this whole thread. You pretty much started this thread with the intent of badgering people about their choice whether or not they let their cat out. Yet, you didn't state that intent upfront. You simply started the thread with a question, and THEN started badgering people.

I dunno, I find it kind of insulting myself, but whatever floats your boat. :shrug:

[NC_Nurse]

180. Agreed.

If you had a position you were taking in the beginning it would have been nice to state that up front.
If you are concerned about wildlife, people should be made to stay indoors and stop reproducing...we are the most destructive of all creatures to the natural flora and fauna. :eyes:

[BikeWriter]

189. You consider allowing cats to free range as responsible behaviour, then?

I felt it worth discussing. Several dozen others did, too.

[crispini]

196. I quite deliberately did not, and will not, speak to your agenda,

precisely because of your rather insinuating and insulting means by which you chose to promote it.

[BikeWriter]

199. Thank you for your kind consideration. n/t

[ikojo]

225. If it was worth discussing then it was worth making

your position known instead of bating people by asking a rather innocent appearing question.

What do you think about people who allow their kids to roam free in a neighborhood? Kids do mean things to birds and property if left unsupervised.

[BikeWriter]

254. Children do not make entire species of birds extinct, as cats are doing.

:(

[roseBudd]

376. Birds are not on the brink of extinction because of cats. You really need

to find something else to hate.

My cat killed a couple baby sparrows that could not fly and a couple mice this past year. Every adult bird he lunged for FLEW AWAY!

[LynneSin]

408. I think it depends on where the cats are free-ranging

Living in Urban Wilmington, to allow a cat to free range I might as well duck tape my cat to the cement and run over it with a car. Plus the fact that the ferral population is out of control, I would be worried about letting my cats out there where they could risk Feline Aids or Rabies (and yes my cats are vacinated)

HOWEVER,

Using this logic and applying it to all cat owners is totally unfair. What is best for an Urban environment isn't the same for Suburban and even Rural living.

The adoption center that I have volunteered for has a barn full of cats that are available for adoption. Many of these cats would not adjust to living indoors and are advertised strictly as "Barn cats". If you own a farm, believe me, you want a few of these mousers out there keeping the small varmit population down.

If someone is to consider an indoor/outdoor then they need to consider several factors including the environent and the preference of the cat. Regular Vet examinations and vaccinations are a must. And please put a flea collar on the cat. But even with outdoor cats, keep fresh water & food available and make sure these partially outdoor cats have a warm place to go to if it gets cold outside.

I use to take care of an outdoor cat at my first apartment. We were not allowed pets where I lived but there was cat that lived by our building that was cared for by all of us. I paid to have Arielle fixed and made sure she had fresh water & food. I'd even pay for her yearly vaccinations. She got to the point that she was friendly and you could pet & hold her plus she'd even come in my home a little bit each night to play and snuggle. But after a few hours, she'd start yowling at the door - she had enough and wanted back outside. The only time she ever used a litter box was when a 3ft blizzard came through and I kept her inside for the duration. The cat lived for 12 years while I was there!

[bicentennial_baby]

178. My cats go where they want, when they want

Kinda like me...Unlike me, sometimes they kill things...No, I have absolutely no shortage of songbirds and little critters here in the country. They kill, and if they're not careful, they get killed by bigger animals, like wild Mink.

Ah, the circle of life. I love my cats, and I'm not going to lock them in like prisoners when they are obviously much happier outdoors most of the time.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

184. why cant you phrase this as a real question

you dont care about the cats...you care about the other wildlife which is fine...but this thread is highly misleading and dishonest.

[BikeWriter]

194. Thank you for your kindness.

:)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

197. you want to do something really great for the world

dont have kids...and promote non-child having...we encroach way more of the flora/fauna than cats do.

[BikeWriter]

204. We brought cats into America and spread them, so you're right in that...

...but we could also control them if we were realistic.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

205. we could also control human population

[BikeWriter]

223. That would meet with more resistance than cat control, but...

...you're welcome to start a poll and discussion of it.

[MichaelHarris]

435. I care about the

billions and billions of earthworms those birds kill every year, it leaves fewer and fewer of them for me to catch fish with. Damn feral earthworms.

[ariesgem]

187. My 4 cats stay inside.

I had an outdoor cat who lived to the age of 16 and he'd sometimes come in all beat up from fighting with other outdoor cats. The vet bills kicked my ass.

My mother works for a woman who has 19 indoor cats.

[Gemini Cat]

195. My cats are inside with me.

However, I feed and will continue to feed any and all cats that happen upon my door.

Blah.

[spinbaby]

202. We have both...

Our three older cats (16, 10, 9) were either adopted as kittens or from the shelter. They don't go out and are old enough not to want to learn to go out.

However, our three younger cats (5, 4, 3) were all adopted as adult strays living in our neighborhood. I didn' t think that captivity should be the price of room and board for these cats so they all come and go as they please. One lives outside most of the year (and on our couch in the winter), one has become mostly an indoor cat, and one lives mainly indoors but takes long treks into the woods from time to time.

[NC_Nurse]

203. Here's what's really happened to the songbirds:

http://whyfiles.org/006migration/bird_loss.html

and

http://www.lslbo.org/songbirds.asp

I saw a Nova episode about this as well. It's deforestation my dear, not kitties.

Predators have been around for a long time. It's man's destruction of habitat that's killing off the birds.

[MidwestMomma]

231. No, it's the mind-controlling killer cats

Forcing weak-willed humans to do their evil deeds!!

"Destroy the trees...force birds to eat out of feeders...must make it easier for us to KILL KILL KILL..."

So goes the cat mantra of destruction :evilgrin:

[BikeWriter]

235. Forty million feral cats haven't been here forever, though climate change.

and habitat haven't helped. All the more reason to control the cats.

[BikeWriter]

396. That's your opinion. The professionals say different.

"David Pimentel, a Cornell University professor who studies the effects of parasitic creatures on ecosystems, says there is no question that domestic cats are killers — and costly ones at that. In fact, a recent study of his found that cats kill about $6 billion (U.S.) worth of birds each year! By his calculations, that's 200,000 birds every year at about 20 bucks a pop."

http://www.exn.ca/cats/gonewild.cfm

[ikojo]

206. When I lived in a house, 12 years ago, my cat was an indoor

outdoor cat. When I moved to the apartment where I currently live, she became an exclusively indoor cat, much to her chagrin.

[NV Whino]

218. Three cats. 12 acres. Indoor-outdoor

Always have been and always will be. End of discussion.

[iconoclastic cat]

222. Sleep soundly.

[MrSlayer]

224. I don't let my cats out at all.

Sometimes the one runs out and attacks the dogs on the street but we get him back in quickly. I keep him in to protect the neighborhood, he's a terror.

[benny05]

226. see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&a

I protect my cats...at expense.

[LDS Jock]

230. address doesnt work

[DaveinMD]

228. my kitty stays indoors

We keep him fairly entertained.

[MidwestMomma]

236. Safely indoors where they can be protected from cat -hating crazies...

They scare me :scared:

[BikeWriter]

346. You are a wise cat owner. There are cat haters out here...

...and they do take a toll of cats that are allowed to roam! :(

[mitchum]

241. Screw that! I prefer cats OVER birds...

but that's just me

[A-Schwarzenegger]

242. Let me say what BikeWriter is too polite to say...

All cats that are not kept inside should be euthanised.

There. I hope he/she feels better now.

[barb162]

251. dogs too?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

252. Yes. For their own good.

It is only because of love and wanting to protect them
from getting hurt. It is them or the ecology.

[achtung_circus]

255. As an animal welfare professional

an enforcement officer for a large SPCA let me tell you about one of my least favourite clients.

They dislike cats, all cats. They have made huge arrangements to prevent cats from entering their backyard. When these arrangements prove to be less than 100% effective they add another layer.

Sometimes this addition is a leghold trap. Sometimes it is a bowl of anti-freeze. Sometimes it's Warfarin inside hot dogs or even, if they have a source, strychnine.

I sympathize with people who don't want neighbour's cats in their back yards. I sympathize with people who don't want their gardens becoming the neighbourhood litter box. I encourage people to consider their neighbours when deciding whether to let their cats outdoors. I encourage people to consider the cat's safety when they make that decision. I also tell people about the toll on wildlife.

That being said, for most of my life in a rural area my vaccinated, neutered cats had access to the outdoors. I support TNR and I believe that TNR coupled with responsible ownership is the only solution for the feral problem.

As for mass euthanasia being someone else' problem- come to my shelter on Euth day. That someone else is me.

[barb162]

268. I visit the local shelter once a week to volunteer and I see the poor

cats that will be put down in a special bank of cages. So many are kittens. I wish I were a zillionaire with a huge tract of fenced protected land where they could roam at will and /or come indoors to a nice warm house with tons of cat trees and good food and live out their lives in peace, without fear. There are so many unwanted pets, dogs and cats, in this country and so many irresponsible owners.

[BikeWriter]

293. It is a self-replicating tragedy.

:(

[BikeWriter]

292. You know all the dangers free ranging cats are exposed to yet...

...you choose to allow yours to free range? Why do you even bother to say you sympathize with people who don't want neighbour's cats in their back yards? If you cared about their property rights you'd keep your pets off other's property. Just my opinion, of course.

[achtung_circus]

310. If you won't read my post, read my lips.

RURAL AREA. = no neighbours within 1/2 mile.

[BikeWriter]

368. You read my lips. Wild animals= who were put there by nature! n/t

[BikeWriter]

257. I feel fine, and you? n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

264. Got a little gas.

You a vegetarian, Bike?

[BikeWriter]

282. Nope, I'm a Texan.

:)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

285. Just between you and me, Texas Bike....

you ever "put down" one of them feral, invasive, destructive cats
yourself, personally?

[BikeWriter]

288. Who me? I'm not the one of us named after the Terminator. n/t

[livinginphotographs]

380. Of course not.

This one only cares about the "songbirds" (whatever that is).

I'm sure he had fried chicken for dinner tonight, too.

Something I loathe worse than anything are people who selectively care for certain animals they find "worthy" enough.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

385. A chicken is a songbird

to another chicken. If you eat a bird, you can't
begrudge something else eating a bird, too. Well,
you can, but it's kinda, whattayacallit ...

[livinginphotographs]

386. Hypocritical?

:shrug:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

387. By Jove, I think you've got it.

Of course, KFC is part of the eco-system.

[livinginphotographs]

389. I had you pegged all wrong Arnie.

You're actually a pretty sharp guy. ;)

[Scout]

256. If I were so rude and careless as to let my dogs run free...

how many of the outdoor cat crowd would be hollering at me?

I'm tired of neighbors letting their cats run loose, to sit in my yard and torment my dogs that are in the house ... to shit in my flower beds ... to yowl when they fight and fuck ... and yes, to stalk my bird feeders.

Cats that are truly pets should be kept under the same control/restraint as that required of dog owners.

[achtung_circus]

259. Some jurisdictions do, in fact, enact cat control by-laws.

<http://www.town.collingwood.on.ca/uploaddocuments/CatBy-law.pdf>

Here's one very simple example.

[barb162]

265. I'm a cat person but like dogs too BUT my next door neighbor

is gonna get the cops called on her by me if she lets her dog run on my property ONE MORE TIME. When her dog comes here it scares the hell out of my cats and they are INSIDE looking out. WHenever I see my cats jumping off the top of the couch really fast I know her damn dog is here unleashed and crapping and whizzing in my flower beds. Leash laws should be obeyed.

[BikeWriter]

289. Yes, they should. By dog owners as well as cat owners.

It's only basic respect.

[Scout]

303. yes, your neighbor should control her dog in her own yard

or walk it on a leash. She is one of the dog owners who give the rest of us a bad name.

I occasionally let my dogs run loose ... we have friends who have 30 acres of property, and I'll go there for a walk in the woods and let the dogs run loose with me. They've never caught and killed anything, never even tried. They run out away from me and back, never getting too far away. Of course, I have the property owner's permission before I do this. If the dogs poop in the yard, I clean it up ... if they poop in the woods, I don't have to clean it up, per the owner!

I'm getting ready to post a notice in the trailer park with a "warning" ... then after I'm going to start live trapping and taking cats to the pound.

[barb162]

316. actually she doesn't want the dog doing its duty in her own yard

and I have caught her several times with her dog in my yard on a leash doing its duty in my yard. SHe is training it to do its business off her property and on mine. Hey she doesn't want her precious lawn spotted up with doo. I have had a few talks with her about this, that it is trespassing, that I don't want her dog here period, etc. When the police car pulls up to her property one of these days after I call them, I am sure I will be the bad guy with all the neighbors.

[Scout]

327. well, if I were your neighbor, you would not be the bad guy with me

she should not bring or let her dog into your yard, whether off leash or on.

The dog can't help it ... even if she didn't train it to go in your yard, it probably would anyway if given the choice. Dogs aren't stupid, they won't poop in their own living room if they don't have to ... would you? :evilgrin:

Get pictures/video of her and her dog coming into your yard to do their thing ... then call the pound or the police or the aspca.

You could always gather the poop and return it to her....

[barb162]

333. HA HA HA, thanks

Problem is she is the big chatty popular repuke around here with all the other repukes and I was the only person in the neighborhood with a Kerry sign. But this will be a police thing if she doesn't quit it. I find her behavior so beyond ignorant and sociopathic I have no words. Typical repuke around here.

[BikeWriter]

374. "gather the poop and return it to her...." I've done that with trash...

...some dogs got into in my yard. I threw some of it in a trash can, and yelled at them to go home. I followed them and was just dumping the can inside the fence when a man came outside asking what I was doing. I told him his dogs were hungry and into my trash, so I'd brought their leftovers home! He apologised quickly. :)

[BikeWriter]

291. Thank you, Scout. I feel the same way. I spend good money on fences...

...for my dogs, yet some people think their cats should run free over other's property.

[Vektor]

262. I have four cats...

three of which are indoors only. One, an adult male, came to us as a grown stray. We tried to keep him indoors, but he literally went nuts and began to tear stuff up. I do not believe in declawing...since he was an outdoor stray, and came to us at about age 4, we let him out, and allow him in whenever he pleases. He stays in the garage at night, or in inclement weather. We live in a mild climate, and in a quiet neighborhood at the end of a cul-de-sac, so it's pretty safe.

I'd like to have them all indoors, but Moby would seriously not cope.

[barb162]

266. what about fleas? I have 4 also and if you let one out, the other 3

get them. Advantage is so expensive for 4 cats

[Vektor]

267. It is pricey..but we do it anyway

Also, all are kept up with vaccinations and get regular exams. Ideally, I would love for all my cats to be indoors, but this cat arrived on our doorstep full grown, and ever so slightly feral, and we took him in. If he were a kitten that we could raise indoors, I would totally do that. I keep him in as much as I can. I definitely subscribe to the "cats should be indoors" school of thinking and all the ones we have besides him never go out. But, since he wasn't our cat to begin with, and adopted us, and will not tolerate constant confinement, I let him out sometimes in the daytime. He never leaves the property, interestingly. He is really good about just hanging out on the back deck, where we can readily see him. We've had him over three years now, and with no problems.

[barb162]

270. I had a cat like that, an unfixed feral who I had for 2 blessed years

before he died of cancer at age 8. Darling, but he was feral and it took me a year to get him in. I had a heated box outside for him for the year he wouldn't be coaxed in. Once I got him in and got him fixed he wanted to go out all the time but I wouldn't let him go out beyond the deck. He just wanted to be outside in the grass so badly even though he got to like indoors too. Finally the last month of his life when there was no hope at all as it was pancreatic cancer I would go out in the back yard with him and let him feel that grass and let him sit in that grass. He would stay close to me. I would pull weeds or something and he would lay under a tree next to me watching, watching, watching. Or I would walk the edges of the yard with him. He would walk ahead of me but always turn around to see if I was behind him. I figured if he gets fleas, tough, then all 4 will get fleas but I was going to let that wonderful cat have the last month of his life doing what he wanted at least a few hours a day. So for about 2 hours or more a day we would be out there unless it was raining. Guess what, he didn't get fleas even though it was late Sept, early October and that is prime flea season around here. His name was Boy and I buried him under the magnolia canopy that was one of his favorite spots to watch me and his house.

[Vektor]

275. Aw, I'm sorry.

The poor little guy. My Moby has been very healthy - he's a pretty robust guy. He is fixed, and other than getting nutso about wanting to go outside, he's ok. He is not the absolute friendliest cat, but is real good with people he knows. We have four cats and two dogs, and have had no problem with fleas, thankfully. We just keep up with the flea prevention, and do regular checks. Here he is for your viewing pleasure.

The seriously crazy Moby:

[barb162]

281. oh my God Moby looks so much like Boy. Boy was light beige

and had this same incredible beautiful pink nose like Moby. And he would often have his tongue out a little like this too. What a beautiful cat you have.

I think when they have spent their entire lives outside, with a lot of work, a feral can become an indoor cat, but they are of the earth in a way. They still want to feel the grass, sit in the grass under a tree, pretend they are king of the jungle. Boy, that last month, would sit under the trees and look up at the birds but had no desire to try to get them...he was the kindest little thing. Hr would sit there and knead the grass and just watch with heightened senses, enjoying himself. He liked to smell everything, he could still climb the trees and run too. But he had no desire to go after any animals. He seemed totally content and would purr up a storm in that grass. I think he liked being there with me because he always turned around and would wait if I got "too far" behind him. That way, I could always protect him. The back yard was unfenced.

[Vektor]

286. He sounds great...

I'm sorry he got sick. Moby is indeed handsome, but he can be an ornery little turd!

[LDS Jock]

271. I keep my cat inside, chained to a bowling ball

I also enjoy teaching her not to try and kill helpless animals, such as birds, by showing her a toy bird. When she shows interest in it, I blast her with the taser gun. I think a few more times and she won't even try for the toy bird.

[Renew Deal]

272. I think that could work with my cat.

}(

[MidwestMomma]

273. A taser...that's what this thread was missing

:D

[LDS Jock]

274. thank you.. thank you..

I thought the thread needed resurrecting for the late nighters. I didn't wanna just kick it, so I thought I'd add this helpful info for others to train their cats.

[BikeWriter]

283. Good, it's nice to see you are a responsible pet owner who controls...

...his animal.

[livinginphotographs]

381. Best post of the thread.

n/t

[GoddessOfGuinness]

277. 4 kitties

all indoors all the time.

[BikeWriter]

284. As they should be, Goddess, thank you. n/t

[K8-EEE]

278. My 8 year old cat goes where she wants

I tried to keep her in when she was a kitten but she has a soul of a wanderer and she was miserable!! She spends most of her time in our pepper tree but does get around the neighborhood...

She comes in at 9 every night to sleep in our bed so I don't worry much.

The only night I never let her out is Halloween because she's a black cat and I'm afraid some psycho will do some damn Halloween prank on her....she screams and howls at the door until Nov 1!!

[bling bling]

287. Two cats. One was inside/outside

but I couldn't take it any more. I've had cats all my life and have never before seen a more avid hunter. He brought everything he caught inside. I would always try to save the animals he caught (birds, bunnies, moles, chipmunks, 2 snakes) but often it was too late by the time I got them away from my cat. Each time I struggled with the ethical question of whether to put the poor suffering creature out of its misery or let it suffer to death with the *hope* that it might recover by some miracle. I usually put them in a box with a towel and food and water but they never recovered. Actually, the snakes made it ok. They played dead right away so the cat quickly lost interested.

I felt really bad for my cat because he loved going out more than anything but I couldn't stand it anymore and made him an indoor cat. I got another cat to keep him company and it's been about 8 months since he's been outside. He doesn't seem quite as happy and he's gained some weight. But I don't regret the decision.

[Freebird12004]

290. my cats lived inside

and went out on a leash.

[LWolf]

294. Since you asked, Yes. My cat is allowed outside.

I've had cats all of my life. I've never had an exclusively indoor cat. I never will.

I might, if I were a city dweller. I'm not.

I don't worry about dogs eating my cat; my cat rules my dogs. I don't worry about predators coming in for the cat; the fence keeps the coyotes out, and the dogs keep the hawks and owls up above. I don't worry about the birds; my dogs and my cat attempt to keep the overabundance of common weaver and house finches from making inroads on the chicken feed, and keep the groundsquirrels, mice, rats, and gophers honest.

We're happy, healthy, and aren't doing any damage to local populations of birds and rodents here. We don't need anyone's judgement or advice at this point, thanks.

[hangemhigh]

295. Inside only! But microchipped in case there's an escape:) nt

[complain jane]

296. Mine stays in warm and fed.

:loveya:

[liberalitch]

305. house cats extraordinare!!!!

[Missy Vixen]

306. Indoors, microchipped, spoiled rotten

There are coyotes and cougars in the area, so our felines have never been allowed to roam outside.

Julie

[roseBudd]

311. My cats go outside and hunt, ineffectively since birds have wings

First of all birds can fly and the majority of cats are ineffective hunters since mom cat needs to have the hunting skill and the time to teach the kittens. With weaning and adoption occuring as early as six weeks, this often does not happen. The assumption that all outside cats are killing birds is faulty. Of all the cat's I have owned only two have had any hunting skill whatsoever, and their infrequent kills were limited to baby birds who fell out of the nest early and could not fly. I have never had a cat who could catch adult birds.

Even mice often escape when caught because cats like to play and mice also play dead.

[LDS Jock]

312. is this thread still alive? please, someone send a cat to kill it

[Willy Lee]

315. How dare you!!

This thread was here before the cat... so.. so...

[patdem]

388. Here ya go...a killer kitty to kill this post

[SiouxJ]

317. My neighbor's cat uses my yard as his sandbox

I've been tempted to toss my dogs' poop over the fence into his yard but have restrained myself. I've also rescued his cat when my dogs have treed him. I've had my wild birds (which I like to feed) stalked and killed by this kitty and still I defend him from my dogs. I will admit I have scared it away with the hose on a few occasions, but I would never harm it. Actually, I'm surprised the cat has survived with all the predators we have around here. We have coyotes, bobcats and even the occasional mountain lion. I have seen many neighborhood cats disappear so I guess it's only a matter of time before this one goes too. Then I'll get a break in the cat-poop department and the dead birds until the neighbor gets yet another outdoor cat. I myself won't even leave my dogs out in the yard when I'm not around. It seems like he doesn't really care what happens to his cat.

[BikeWriter]

319. Thank you for being a responsible pet owner. As you can see...

...there are many responsible cat owners here and others who just don't get it. Please stay active in helping to control roaming and feral cats. They're destroying our wildlife! :(

[BikeWriter]

318. What has TNR gotten us? 70 million feral cats!

"Some feline experts now estimate 70 million feral cats live in the United States, the consequence of little effort to control the population and of the cat's ability to reproduce quickly."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0907_040907_feralcats.html

[LDS Jock]

323. if more people would do it

it would work. Are you implying TNR is responsible for the increase in cats? How is that possible? Although TNR is not as widespead as it needs to be, without what has been done there would be more ferals.

[BikeWriter]

332. What I'm saying is half hearted, ineffectual attempts at controlling...

... the exploding cat population while protesting and using political action against anyone championing other methods will only perpetuate the problem!

[achtung_circus]

352. Irresponsibly allowing cats to breed unchecked

is what has produced 70 million cats. Don't blame TNR. TNR takes cats out of the breeding pool.

[BikeWriter]

399. Yes, and then releases them to kill again!

:(

[BikeWriter]

320. You may be breaking the law!

Cat Predation of Federally-ProtectedWildlifeThe Migratory BirdTreaty Act(MBTA) prohibits the hunting,taking, capturing, or killing ofany migratory bird. In seemingviolation of this landmark law,owners of free-roaming catspermit their pets to kill birdsprotected by the MBTA. Asnoted above, domestic cats arealso killing birds and otherwildlife protected under theEndangered Species Act (ESA).Through the ESA, the federal government protects and restoreswildlife at risk of extinction. Although cats may not beresponsible for the perilous status of endangered wildlife, theloss of even a single animal can be a setback to the survival ofsome species.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:TBGWJg_c-cgJ:www.abcbirds.org/cats/predation.pdf+feral+cats++blue+jays&hl=en

[Bertha Venation]

321. Perhaps you should read the entire section of the Code.

United States Code, Title 16 -- Conservation; Chapter 7 -- Protection of Migratory Game and Insectivorous Birds

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/16/chapters/7/toc.html

I don't have time to read it all right now but a quick scan reveals there's a lot more to the code than what you've quoted.

What's more, I'm not a lawyer but it seems to me that Title 16 refers to direct human actions against the environment.

[LDS Jock]

324. when they start sending cats to the electric chair

you'll have your wish for the extermination of all cats

[BikeWriter]

329. When owners of free roaming cats accept their responsibility to the cat...

...and our ecosystem, I'll have my wish.

[Bertha Venation]

334. "their responsibility to the cat" -- EXACTLY.

That is whom our responsibility is to, BikeWriter: our pets.

I think it's safe to say that DUers are among the most environmentally conscientious folks in the U.S. I think it's also safe to say that we all agree that the extinction of species is a tragedy.

And I think it's very safe to say that, while important and tragic, (A) when compared to all the other causes wrought by arrogant humans, our outdoor cats are not a major cause of bird extinction, and (B) when compared to everything that's going on in the world, that we've spent nearly 400 posts arguing with a single DUer on this issue is astounding.

[BikeWriter]

339. No one has twisted your arm forcing you to post in this thread. I will...

...continue posting my concerns and the concerns of ecologists and environmentalists with you or without you. You say your outdoor cats are not a major cause of bird extinction. There are hundreds of experts who do not agree, and neither do I.
There are a number of responsible, ethical people who have agreed with me in this thread.

[Bertha Venation]

342. You've just called me irresponsible and unethical.

At least your last sentence can be taken that way. Whatever.

Who are the hundreds of experts? Can you link me directly to an unbiased, reviewed piece of research on this issue? Two, maybe?

[BikeWriter]

345. Two, maybe? Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

You can ignore the ethical aspects of enabling feral cats to eradicate our wildlife if you wish, but I will not.

[Bertha Venation]

348. Are you going to post direct links to certified research or not?

It's not a matter of choosing to ignore what you say. It's a matter of wanting to investigate for myself.

I'll be looking for your links.

[BikeWriter]

476. Investigate this! It's all I could find of the Mockingbird that we raised.

He'd been nesting in our yard for years. I'll see if I can find his head tomorrow.
<>

[Bertha Venation]

398. BikeWriter: I am waiting for you to post links that back up your claim.

Remember: direct links to unbiased, reviewed research.

[Scout]

340. so how many posts have you spent arguing? n/t

[Xithras]

326. Outside only

My cats are outside only, with a kitty door so they can come into the garage if it gets too cold out there. My cats are fixed so breeding isn't an issue, and I don't live near any major roadways so getting hit by a car is only a slim possibility, and any "nature" in my area was destroyed over a century ago, so there are no endangered species for them to kill. Their only real danger comes from dogs, and I trust that their survival instincts will keep them from harm there.

Bringing the cats inside is not, and never will be, an option. Since they were raised as outdoor cats they tend to go NUTS when deprived of their freedom to roam (vet visits can be fun), and my wife has cat allergies that prevent them from entering the house anyway.

[BikeWriter]

330. So you say there is no wildlife in the area for them to kill? n/t

[Xithras]

336. Nothing worth getting worked up over

I live in a fairly urban area, so we don't get migratory birds dropping in, and the only endangered bird ranges that we're in are all raptors, and those never come into the city anyway because food is too hard to find.

The big problem with our area is actually the LACK of predators. Squirrel and local non-raptor bird populations here exist well above the level you'd expect in an urban area specifically because NOTHING hunts them. 150 years ago this area was home to bear, mountain lion, foxes, coyotes, and wolverines, not to mention native americans, who combined to keep populations in check. Today the only thing our local squirrels and field mice worry about are the occasional feral cats, and those cats are definitely not affecting their species survival ability.

[BikeWriter]

344. Have you considered those cats have probably replaced the natural...

predators in the area by preying on the small mammals and birds?

[Xithras]

372. Uh, no, they haven't

This areas natural predators:

Bear - The California Golden Bear has been extinct for a century.
Mountain Lion - Cougars tend to not last long in urban areas. When one is spotted, they get tranqued and relocated quickly.
Foxes - The Valley Kit Fox is an extremely endangered species and no longer exists in this part of the state at all. They require wide open plains that simply don't exist in this part of the state any more.
Coyotes - Same story as the mountain lions. Since coyotes kill and eat housecats anyway, I think it's unlikely that the cats would be displacing them if they WERE allowed to migrate back into this area.
Wolverines - Have only existed in the extreme northeastern corner of California, hundreds of miles from where I live, for a century.

So yes, I can say with some certainly that my cats haven't displaced any of our regions natural predators. That job was accomplished by us humans.

[Xithras]

379. Ah, I forgot the Bobcat!

Shame on me for forgetting that. One of the few predators that does still exist in this area is the Bobcat, but they don't come into the urban areas because they don't like people.

I could easily make the argument that replacing the natural small cat predator of this area (Felis Rufus) with its cousin (Felis Catus) has simply maintained the predator/prey equilibrium of this area.

[Scout]

331. so they can't come inside even if they wanted to...

why do you bother to keep them as pets?

[Xithras]

338. They're not "pets".

My cats are my friends and companions, and they stay with me by their own choice. Both of them, BTW, would be dead today if I hadn't adopted them, so any argument that I'm not being "fair" to them isn't going to get you very far. I saved their lives, provide them with food and water, and even give them a comfortable and warm place to sleep when they want it, and in return they keep me company and keep my property mouse-free. We don't have an owner/property relationship, we have an equitable arrangement in which we all provide for each other for the common good.

Besides, they're incredibly cute :)

[Scout]

341. some friends

they won't come inside with you.

How do you know they would be dead today?

"we have an equitable arrangement in which we all provide for each other for the common good."

and the common good of your neighbors? the common good of wildlife?

[Xithras]

378. Luckily, my neighbors are cat people

My cats poop in their flowers, theirs poop in mine. :)

And I know my cats would be dead because I adopted them only hours before our local shelter was going to put them down. There were seven adorable kittens in that litter that were to be euthanized because nobody wanted them. Five were put down that day, I saved the other two (Tom & Jerry).

As for the good of wildlife, I've already addressed that. A healthy wildlife population requires the presence of a predator to cull the weak and keep the species healthy. Minus a natural predator in this area, our cats do the job.

[BikeWriter]

413. Our environment has its natural predators, but cats are thinning their...

populations out. It seems roaming cats and ferals fed by humans have an unnatural advantage on them, too.

[winston61]

335. Oh my God

I'm an irresponsible sob and I did not know it. For the past 18 years all my cats have been picked up strays. We take very good care of our animals and they live a long time. But we've got a cat flap and they come and go as they please. IMO keeping an animal confined indoors is a little inhumane. Not as bad a de-clawing, which I think should be a crime (Go Kinky!). All our cats are as happy and healthy as yearling pigs. Cats are animals and should not be made to adapt human characteristics to suit a selfish or thoughtless owner.

[BikeWriter]

343. What part of humane relates to allowing cats to hunt and kill...

...our dwindling wildlife?

[winston61]

402. what bullshit!

Should I get a gun and go down into the woods to kill every wild or feral cat I can find so it won't kill a rabbit or a quail? Dwindling wildlife? When's the last time you've been in the woods or my neighborhood? We are over run with squirrels, opossums, raccoons, birds. No house cat is ever going to catch more than one squirrel. And yes I have to confess that I have allowed my tom cat to actually catch and (shudder) eat mice that have invaded my home. Someone gonna call PETA? So no backing down, confining an animal to an indoor environment is inhumane. Cats are animals, not people. They are only one bowl of food away from reverting back to feral behavior. I can feed my cats a car load of kibble and they will right outside and stalk and kill and eat birds and mice. If that offends someone's sensibilities, then maybe you should get a lap dog (they eat cat shit by the way) or a tank of fish. Or is confining innocent fish a sin too?

[BikeWriter]

453. Cats do not belong in the wild here. Allowing them outside is inhumane...

...to our natural fauna who are not equipped by nature to defend against them. The rats and mice which have come here from the old world actually take over from the native rodents as they are killed out by your cats.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

349. Oscar roams free.

I tried keeping him in but he eats through the walls.
I put a muzzle on him just to see what would happen
and he ate through the muzzle then ate through the wall.
He never brought him home no birds, actually birds sometime
nest in his fur, but he has brought home a scalp once. I dont
think he did it, I think he just found it.

[bicentennial_baby]

353. Oscar needs to roam

He's such a wonder, that Oscar...I miss him :P

[cags]

383. My sister actually did have an animal eat through her wall once

I'm totally serious. It must have come in through the dog door and gotten trapped overnight. The next morning there was a hole through the wall in the kitchen, whatever it was it ate straight through the drywall, and stucco.

[Jersey Devil]

351. Are you kidding? The birds attack the cat

My cat goes in and out as she pleases and basically stays around the house, not roaming very far. Sometimes she will bring us presents of mice and parade around the house with them until we notice and get rid of them. In the fall when the mice sneak into the house she gets rid of them for us pronto, earning her room and board.

We have mockingbirds that come back every year and for the entire spring when they have chicks they dive bomb the cat, swooping down over her head until she hides under a bush.

[BikeWriter]

359. That's what the Mockingbird nesting in my yard for the last ten years...

...has done to my neighbor's stray cats, until a few days ago. I found a head and wings on my porch. I don't know if it's him or a mate. :(

[donheld]

361. My cat loves to go outside

but i keep her inside in the winter. I don't think she ever goes very far.

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

364. None of my cats has ever gone out without supervision

When we lived in Wichita and had a deck we tried to get them to go out onto the deck. Simba wouldn't even try to go out. Monty went out, got scared and peed on the deck. Fergus liked to go outside and eat grass. I never let him go outside without going with him; I didn't know what he'd do.

[BikeWriter]

371. Very good. They're happy and secure. So are the natural fauna around you.

:)

[NashVegas]

382. I've Had Both

When I lived in the 'burbs, I had a cat who was indoor / outdoor. An occasional hunter, she'd every now and then try to bring in chipmunks. Once she made it up to the back porch with a Blue Jay in her jaws. When she adjusted her grip, it flew out.

The chipmunks were a pain, if she got them indoors they'd be running around the basement for days.

She lived to be about 17.

My current sweetie is 99.44% indoor. Sometimes I'll let her out on the balcony.

If I were in an area where it were safer for her, I'd let her go outdoors on her own, but that's just not the case.

[Donkeyboy75]

390. I always keep them inside

when I go songbird hunting.

[Gemini Cat]

409. LOL!!

Exactly!
My cats and I have it worked out this way:
I go song bird hunting on Monday, Wednesday and Friday and they do on the other days. It really works well!

[dolo amber]

391. It's called "The Circle of Life"

Watch "The Lion King" and move on with your life.

[BikeWriter]

397. That is in Africa, where lions and cats belong in the wild.

They are an alien invasive species here.

[Kire]

392. my cat used to be both indoor and outdoor, but...

I downsized her into an apartment complex, when I inherited her from my Dad who passed away about two years ago. She's gained a lot of weight, so even if she goes outside now, she usually stays close to the door until I let her in. One of the first days I let her out at the new place, I watched the dominant male of all the cats in the complex just smack her right in the face. She was gone for two days, and hasn't been the same as she used to be since.

[BikeWriter]

403. Ouch! I'm sorry she had that unpleasant experience, but glad she came home

:)

[Orsino]

394. All indoor cats...

...where we lost two to spider bites. Sometimes, the outdoors can be safer.

[BikeWriter]

405. At least they aren't exposed to cars while indoors.

[blindpig]

439. what a can of worms you've opened!

One of my resolutions this year was not to get involved in cat threads this year but the sheer size of this thing....and your resolve!

I've gotten a lot of grief for making the same points that you've made, with the same results though not the volume.

What really drives me nuts is that most of these advocates of free range/feral cats will claim to be environmentalist. LCV claims that 86% of Americans call themselves environmentalist but I suspect that that support is very thin when things gets personal.

And it ain't just birds, herpetofauna takes an awful whacking, but who cares about them?


Bravo, you are tough!

[davidinalameda]

421. my cats eat spiders

makes them sick and they throw up but they still eat them

[LDS Jock]

422. how could you let them? spiders are part of the fauna!

please have your cats euthanized to save the spiders

/sarcasm

[jswordy]

406. OH WHAT THE HELL! I have resisted for 2 frickin' days!

:bounce:

[Medium Baby Jesus]

412. The horror. The horror

[Bertha Venation]

414. LOL Dammit, I want that tattooed on my left . . . . !

Thanks for the laugh!

[jswordy]

415. Sorry kick-ass-bob!

:bounce:

[Wickerman]

416. My cat used to try to sneak outside

though he is defiantly an indoor cat. We got him from a shelter declawed - he wouldn't fare well outside even if we would want in to be an indoor outdoor - which we wouldn't.

When we let the dog out the cat thinks about going out. A few times he has snuck out and we captured him while still on the deck. That behavior was pretty much extinguished when the ice storm hit this winter - his pads weren't too excited to feel the chill.

Ok, it's true - I got nothing, just wanted to contribute to this lengthy thread.

:hi:

[jswordy]

417. I got lonely for it.

:bounce:

[LDS Jock]

418. I screamed when I saw this thread

on the first page again.. damn you.. :spank:

[jswordy]

419. OW THAT HURT! Spank me some more, you violent thing, you! LOL n/t

[Ripley]

420. BUT THIS IS A BIRD AND MOUSE HOLOCAUST!!!!!!

It's happening right now! Billions and billions of small animals are being murdered by cats all over the world!

What are you, a Holocaust denier?

(No offense meant to the people who died and survived the real Holocaust. May they all rest in peace. This is sarcasm for those who make that absurd comparison.)

[LDS Jock]

423. would you prefer a kitty holocaust?

kill the kitties to save the local fauna?

[Ripley]

425. S....A...R...C...A....S....M

Do you not know what the big word means? Let me spell it out for you. I think the notion that cats are "murderers" is lunatic, and the fact that they kill lots of small animals is natural and is in fact their primary job in places like the Louve where a special line of cats is used to keep the mice from chewing up the artwork. They are Royalty there.

I don't believe there is any possibility of birds or mice going extinct due to cat behavior. I believe the number one reason birds (especially blue birds) are declining in some areas is due to human destruction of their habit and the aggressive behavior of others birds that take over their nesting grounds.

Meow.

[LDS Jock]

426. I was being sarcastic back.. sorry

[jswordy]

424. New Age pablum aside, Nature is not all beauty and love...

...and there must exist a balance between life and death, violence and beauty, for the Earth to live and survive. I would much rather that the death of a living thing at least promote the life of another. It is a beautiful system with no waste to it. Only humans are wasteful in ways that make it hard for Nature to recycle itself.

Uh, sorry kick-ass-bob!

[Ripley]

427. sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm.

Anyway my kitty only eats gecko's and grasshoppers. He caught a bluejay baby once, but the mother bluejay pecked the crap out of his head. Hasn't had a taste for birds since.

[WilliamPitt]

428. Had to happen sooner or later

A cat-based flame thread.

People need hobbies...that have nothing to do with cats.

[LDS Jock]

429. you have to pick sides too Mr. Pitt

who should live, cats or songbirds?

[WilliamPitt]

430. Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out

I live in downtown Boston, so the only songbirds here are pigeons and seagulls.

Personally, I keep the cat inside. I live in an apartment building, and letting the cat out would be a massively laborious process involving the negotiation of a series of heavily armored doors. The cat is smart, but thankfully he hasn't mastered thumbing the bolts or working the keys just yet.

Hobbies, folks. Hobbies.

[crispini]

433. ROFL

:hug:

This thread has now become a fine piece of internet-based performance art. In fact, I'm nominating it for lifetime membership in the DUDQ Hall of Fame! :evilgrin:

[MichaelHarris]

438. I say let the cats out from time to time

the owls have to eat too.

[yinkaafrica]

431. Indoors only.

I gotta keep them safe and happy.

[Bertha Venation]

434. The funny thing about this thread is

that it is apparently taken very seriously. I take it seriously, but that's who I am. I'm a cat lover and a vocal advocate for TNR and no-kill shelters. Obviously, I think it's a little over the top to worry about the extinction of birds at the claws of feral cats.

But, I am trying to realize there is folly in perpetuating a flame-fest over the subject. :shrug:

[Name removed]

437. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bertha Venation]

446. Bummer! I go to lunch and miss stuff like this!

Oh, well.

[LDS Jock]

447. I'll PM you sweetie

[ernstbass]

436. My dogs killed a cat

who entered my yard (chain link with electric wire around the bottom) to hunt birds at my feeder. It's all about survival of the fittest folks!

[NamVetsWeeLass]

440. My old man cat, Ace is an indoor cat only

He has only ventured out on a harness, and literally army crawls thru the grass. He's a big wuss. The Stray, Pokey, the Morbidly Obese, is an indoor/outdoor cat, and I can't figure out how to get her to stay inside... I think it was last week, I found a decapitated cat on the concrete pad that the steps to my second floor dwelling land on. Yes, I reported it... We think it may have been a dog's work. (We have several large imposing dogs in the area) But I worry about Pokey the Morbidly Obese, although I have seen her scare dogs off. If it is a Human, I HOPE they don't try anything with Pokey, cause if they do, they will be in need of serious medical care... and I will not be the one to provide it. (I'm a Nurse) I would be the cause behind the need for medical attention.

[gypsy11]

441. 3 kitties, they stay inside.

I've had cats all my life however, and have had out-door kitties only, and in-door/ out-door kitties. Right now where I live is way too close to the road for me to let them out. They'd get squished.
I had to chime in though... This thread is too much. :crazy:

[gypsy11]

442. Dupe

[gypsy11]

443. Dupe again

sorry!

[loudestchick]

444. This thread is immortal. I will begin worshipping this thread immediately

I shall begin my worship by sacrificing songbirds to the Immortal thread...and composing music in praise of its magnificence!

[LDS Jock]

445. lol n/t

[The empressof all]

448. No Cat here

I no longer keep cats. My neighbors big beautiful cat does visit on occasion. She enjoys sitting on the fence to annoy my dog. I did try to raise chickens at one time however my Lab/Dalmatian mix licked one to death. Had to give the birds away. Now my dog does seem interested in a wood-pecker who has taken up residence in one of the trees in the front of the house. I really don't believe she has a bird killing instinct just because she's now "tasted the blood of the chicken"

Anyway I just didn't want to be left out of this thread ---so thought I would just share.

[Logansquare]

449. Dear owner of the black male cat roaming outside

I am saddened to inform you that I saw him being struck by two cars in a row. I wish I could say he died instantly, but he dragged himself back to the curb screaming in agony. I rushed to help him, but the instant I saw him, I knew his body had been crushed. He died a minute later looking into my eyes, soundlessly crying out. He didn't have a tag, but was obviously well fed and groomed--a beloved pet, no doubt. I had to pick up his lifeless body and discard it, since it was after 9 am and most of the neighborhood was at work. I know you thought you were doing him a favor by letting him out that morning, but he really deserved to live to an old age and die in your arms. He was so beautiful.

True story. I wanted to post the above around the neighborhood, but feared that there might be a broken-hearted child involved. I let my cats out on leashes while I supervise, and I challenge anyone to find happier more spoiled creatures on this planet.

[jswordy]

454. DO NOT MAKE AN IDOL OF THIS THREAD or I'll turn it into a sex thread...

...and it WILL BE LOCKED!

THIS IS NO IDLE THREAT!

I know what I am doing in this regard!

Heheheheh.

[crispini]

455. Please do!

Anything to kill this thread!

[loudestchick]

456. I feel compelled to worship its undying greatness. This is not idolatry.

This is enlightenment. I'm ready to sacrifice rodents, next.O8)

[blindpig]

457. funny

I'm ready to sacrifice feral cats, should they trespass.

[loudestchick]

458. You are going to join me in the worshipping of the immortal thread?

Praise to the immortal thread!

[blindpig]

459. it certainly is a monument

to environmental ignorance.

Have to see if I get that cat first, hate to do things half-assed.

[LDS Jock]

460. let's start our own church... I'm ordained at

http://www.ulc.org/ Must worship immortal thread!

[LiberallyInclined]

461. In & Out-

we have three cats, and the only one that shows absolutely NO interest in going outside is the female grey tabby that we brought in as a stray 5 years ago.

our male red-ginger tabby, who we got as a kitten from a no-kill shelter, is always begging to go out- but we only let him into the fenced-in back yard that he cannot get out of.

our other female, a siamese/himalayan mix we got as a kitten from a farm in iowa- she likes to go out once in a while, but usually not for very long.

NONE of them are allowed to roam free, and the backyard is more like a big room with no ceiling, since they can't get out of it anyway.

[blindpig]

463. Tragedy of the Commons

If the native wildlife which free roaming cats destroy were OWNED by somebody there'd be hell to pay. In this neck of the woods feral dogs are commonly shot on sight because they are a threat to LIVESTOCK.
I am not endorsing libertarianism, I am lamenting the lack of concern and foresight by intelligent human beings. Makes me sad.

[LDS Jock]

465. Some of us are concerned with other things

than the destruction of cats to save a songbird.

[SoCalDem]

466. I am the most "cat-friendly" person on earth and because of that

I could NEVER EVER let one of my babies out into the cruel world. Cats are by nature, skittish...and the unexpected sound could cause that "watched and attended" cat bolt and run into traffic.

As much at I hate hate hate litterbox duties, it;s a small price to pay to know that they are snug and safe inside.

Cats and dogs have instincts working for them, but unfortunately they are perpetual toddlers in the intellect department. Would you let out a 4 yr old toddler at night, and then let him nack in for breakfast?
(Even if he really really wanted out?)

Indoor-outdoor cats are prone to all kinds of hazards....mean kids, cars, dogs, carelessly discarded anti-freeze, poisoned rodents, diseased birds & rodents, cruel adults who "hate" cats and try to hit them with their cars... you name it..

We do feed 2 ferals, but we provide them with shelter and food. We have captured them and had them "fixed" so I will not have to bottlefeed anymore litters. The shelters we have here will euthanize any feral (or unfriendly) adult cat, so we are resigned to the fact that someday , something will "happen" to them.. We have given them what we could, and they do stay close, although they run when we make eye contact with them, and they will not come closer than 20 feet or so, even though they have been here since they were kittens.

Our indoorsies will never want for anything, and I know they are safe.

[Lisabtrucking]

464. My cocoa and popcorn go outside, but I'm always with them .

They really love it when I let them go out and play in the yard or lay out in the sun. My cocoa meows when she needs to go to the bathroom just like a dog. I love my babies. They are both spaded also firm believer in the spade.

[Megahurtz]

470. My cat is indoors.

His name is Nick. Sometimes I call him Nickster. As soon as I can figure out how to post a photo of him I will.

[Pithlet]

472. This has to be one of the most bizarre

and bizarrely long lived threads in the lounge ever.

[BikeWriter]

474. You haven't seen anything yet. Only inconsiderate, irresponsible people...

...would allow their animal to invade another's property and privacy to crap and urinate all over the place. I won't quit pointing that out, nor that I have a right to have nesting birds in my yard.

[Pithlet]

475. I don't think mass euthinization of all outdoor cats is the answer.

I understand your concerns, and neighbor's pets in the yard is a nuisance. I'm with you in that I think cats should be indoor pets. But, I do think you're projecting your dislike of cats just a bit. Cats aren't the only, or even biggest threat facing song birds. And irresponsible pet ownership is not limited to cats.

[Maddy McCall]

473. I allow mine to chance cat murder everytime she goes outside.

She chases the dog and then eats four or five bluebirds, a spotted owl or two, screws around with several toms (she has no idea who the fathers of her six litters have been). And when she's feeling really giddy, she pollutes major streams and causes topsoil erosion.

But she enjoys herself. So, that's why I let her romp.

(Most idiotic thread EVER) :eyes:

[Megahurtz]

477. Kick...........

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!:silly:

[BigMcLargehuge]

478. Locked

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SING IT WITH ME EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!

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Big McLargehuge
DU Moderator