How Many Times Did Jackie Robinson Charge The Stands?

[THUNDER HANDS]

Huh?

For all those crying foul and taking Ron Artest and Co.'s side in this brawl incident.

Tell me, with all the crap that Jackie Robinson took, which I think anyone will attest to, is 10,000X greater than anything any pro athlete gets today, how many times did he lose his cool and charge the stands?

Answer: 0.

He had class. He knew how to be the better man. He didn't let superficial things like his 'manhood' determine what his actions should be.

He was a real man.

Ron Artest is a punk. He cost his team two good players for a long time all because he can't control his temper and franky, is as close to completely fucking nuts as a pro athlete gets today.

Yeah someone threw a water bottle at him. OOoooooh, poor baby.

Your paycheck covers the expenses inccured by your bruised ego. Suck it up and let security handle it.

But noooo, you wanted to be a big man. A big tough guy. And now you basically cost your team a top seed in the conference. Good going.

And for all those crying racism. For all those crying about the fan who threw the bottle. For all those crying Ben Wallace for pushing Artest.

Shut up.

You know who's fault this is. The guy who got suspended for the rest of the year.

Would Jackie Robinson charge the stands after that fan?

I think not. That's why Robinson was a real man and Artest is nothing but a real punk.

[WMliberal]

1. well put.

and excellent perspective. the abuse Robinson took is way off the scal of cold beverage tossing and jeering from the stands. No one brought nooses to Artest's games and shouted Klan-worthy filth towards him all game long, 162 (or was it still 154) games a year.

[Ekirh]

11. Back then it was

Still 154 Games I believe.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Nicely said!

Artest is a jackass whiner.

Are the fans free of blame? Absolutely not. But Artest is the villain, and rightly so.

[jakefrep]

10. Artest isn't the villain...

the jackass who threw the beer at him is.

[joeybee12]

13. Ever hear of self-restraint?

They have security there to take care of people like that. By charging the stands Artest unleashed a brawl.

[Rabrrrrrr]

40. No, I don't agree at all

Certainly the beer thrower is also a jackass idiot, and sholdn't have thrown the beer.

But Artest's reaction was totally unreasonable, unprofessional, and stupido.

Artest had a chance to end the fight before it began, in a gentlemanly and professional manner. He chose instead to begin a fight. Hence, he is in the wrong.

[Champ]

3. Robinson would've been banned from the league

for saying something impolite. No player should have to recieve any abuse from spectators, not even opposing team fans (fights between fans happen atleast once a year), a 30 game suspension would've been reasonable. Not the entire season especially when Stephen Jackson lost his temper from the first second after the shove and was the one swinging uncontrollably in the stands.

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. the reason i don't fault jackson as much

is because he ran after his teammate. He was, I'd like to believe, trying to protect his idiot teammate from harm.

Same with O'Neal, who doesn't like Artest to begin with and probably HATES him now.

[Champ]

5. Artest in his view was protecting himself

A man underhands a beer, then steps away and hits Artest from behind. Then the fan who went after Artest on the court. Jackson just went off on everybody, it appeared Artest was only going after those he felt physically challenged. Not that it was justifyable, a 30 game and I would even say a criminal charge would be reasonable but not suspension for an entire season.

[THUNDER HANDS]

6. it also had to do with his history

Artest has a history of unstable behavior. Frankly, he got off easy. If I was the commish he'd be banned for life.

[tx_dem41]

15. Well hopefully a criminal charge would result....

in the equivalent of a year off.

[tx_dem41]

12. Do you usually protect someone by.....

punching the daylights out of another person? Believe me, if I ever need protection, don't come near me. You will be NO help. I don't need your screwed up judgement or ethics.

[THUNDER HANDS]

17. no, he deserved to get suspended too

But what he did was something in the heat of the moment that was after his teammate had already charged up into the crowd.

If your teammate is taking off into the stands, you go after him to defend him. Yes, you deserve to take some sort of punishment for your actions overall, but on a blame scale, Jackson is a 5 and Artest is a big fat 10.

[tx_dem41]

18. No...if my teammate is going up in the stands...

I go up there and drag his ass out of the stands. Have you played team sports before?

[THUNDER HANDS]

20. yeah but

i was never in that situation. Though I once tried to start a fight in little league during the post-game handshake. :evilgrin:

[tx_dem41]

21. Learn about personal responsibility....

Sorry to sound like such a blowhard. But, it really is the way to live life.

[THUNDER HANDS]

23. hey, i'm not the one charging the stands

take it up with Mr. Artest, Mr. Jackson and Mr. O'Neal

[tx_dem41]

25. But you are the one trying to justify Jackson's behavior.

[THUNDER HANDS]

26. i said I "believed" that's what his mindset was

there's no excuse for punching a fan. Period. All the players should have excercized self control. But Artest is most responsible because he caused his teammates to follow him into the stands.

[tx_dem41]

27. Looking back at your other posts

I agree that is what you are saying. Sorry, if I got in your face too much!

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. its okay

you're still cool with me. :D

[Champ]

69. Let me get this straight

This isn't really an argument but more of a question so I can straiten out your case. If Artest was the most responsible for "causing" his teamates to follow him then why not the fans who "caused" an obviously self-restrained Artest to become enranged?He also showed instances where he tried to control himself but then got hit from behind and a fan approached him face-to-face in an obvious insane hostile environment. As Carlisle said, it was like "we were fighting for their lives", my opinion, the hostile violent fans were the ones to blame for the riot. If that one guy doesn't throw a beer, you would've seen Indiana shoot a technical foul shot for the shove and eventually win the game. It is unbelievable, with 45 seconds left in a game they were obviously going to win, their entire season changed. I may appear biased because I'm a Pacers fan but I feel that I've taken a fear minded approach, I didn't consider Artest's past incidents because he already payed his price and I seen incredible self control efforts excersized by Artest for the 2nd half of last year and he was provoked, he has taken alot of shit for just being Ron Artest. It is so easy to say what you would've done or what Artest should've done when you have plenty of time to think about it, Artest just reacted after being provoked numerous times in a high intensity game. You really can't say unless you've been in a situation like that.

[snoochie]

7. Thank you!

Well said.

[joeybee12]

8. Hey! How many times did those in the stands charge at Jackie?

None, also, at least not physically, but he put up with a great deal of abuse, as you rightly noted. Still, one could say they charged him emotionally and verabbly, and he held up admirably under the kind of pressure only a handful of people who have ever lived on this earth will ever know.

Atest is a punk--nobody should be defending him. The suspension is justified; I still can't believe Sprewell is playing basketball and is not behind bars.

[jakefrep]

9. So what's your point?

Sorry, but when a fan hits a player, all bets are off.

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. we're not talking Monica Seles here

It's not like the guy crept up behind Artest and stabbed him. He threw a freakin' cup of soda at him.

Artest should have just laughed it off. The security guards would have escorted the jackass away and that would have ended that.

But no, Artest didn't want to get 'punked' by a fan. So he jumps over the scorers table, goes up a flight of steps, and runs 10 seats over to hit a guy who didn't even throw the cup at him.

This was a huge, gigantic clusterfuck and Artest is the prime suspect because HE, not the fan, was the instigator.

Artest has to have self control. Unless a fan stepped onto the court to attack him, he had no right to approach a fan and lay his hands on him.

[Midlodemocrat]

32. Agreed. And what kind of an example does that show the kids?

[Seabiscuit]

36. Huh?

"Sorry, but when a fan hits a player, all bets are off."

This melee was not started by some fan "hitting" a player. Some fan threw a cup of beer at Artest. Artest then charged the fans and threw the first punches. Artist "hit" a fan. No fan "hit" artest.

Artest is basketball's equivalent of Mike Tyson (Mr. "bite of the century"). Both deserved the banishment they received for their animalistic behavior.

Look, kids watch these sports and what kind of example does Artest set for them? What kind of example would the league set for them if it gave Artest a slap on the wrist?

[democracyindanger]

16. How many people agreed--contractually, like Robinson--not to react?

One problem with your argument is that Robinson agreed not to react to all the abuse both he and the owner knew was coming. No matter what happened, Robinson had to keep his mouth shut. Not out of professionalism or courtesy or "manhood"--BUT CONTRACTUALLY.

That's not saying he wouldn't have been the same man if it wasn't part of his job requirements. Far from it. But he said himself that he thought this rookie year's requirement helped prepare him for the years ahead.

So, yeah, if it wasn't for that clause, I think Robinson would've gone after that fan. And history proves I'm not the only one who thought that.

I don't dispute that Artest is a head case. I'm a Blazer fan. I know from head cases. But there's a specific reason why Robinson didn't go Artest--or, more aptly, go Detroit--on abusive fans the first and worst year of the hate.

I wonder how anyone would react if somebody threw a water bottle at them in anger, during a heated moment. It's easy to laugh off, but things change when you add adrenaline and a screaming crowd. If some Young Republican hit you with a water bottle, would you take your own advice and "take it like a man"? I'm honest enough to say that I can't guarantee I would, despite knowing going after the guy wasn't the thing a mature, thinking adult would do.

I think Artest's punishment was appropriate. I'm sad the idiot fans who STARTED IT (Talk about boo-hoo; Wallace was just mad because his team got punked at home) will serve no jail time, and be back in their high-roller seats within the year.

Artest is nuts. Artest was wrong. But the fans, Palace security and the refs were all wrong before him.

[THUNDER HANDS]

19. well to use your analogy

if I was some ordinary person, no I would probably go up and stomp the republican who tossed a water bottle at me.

However, if I was a Democratic politician running for president, no, i would not go attack the republican.

As a regular person I am held to a lesser standard than a politician or pro athlete.

[democracyindanger]

29. If you were running for president

You'd have a Secret Service detail that is with you 24-hours a day, and that you knew was highly trained and would take care of it. Palace security proved the conventional wisdom about rent-a-cops: There's a reason they're not real cops. If I were an NBA player on a hostile court, I wouldn't necessarily trust some yellow-jacket-wearing idiot to protect me.

What Artest did was wrong, but understandable. I just hope the fans that got hit always have something like a little click in their jaw or a rib that aches when there's rain coming, so they can always remember: "This is the day when I acted like a complete asshole."

And I've never believed that politicians or pro athletes have a higher standard, because if I did, it wouldn't say much for my own--as much as I fail to meet it.

[tx_dem41]

24. Thanks for the reference to the contract.....

Just like Jackie Robinson, Artest's contract has not only a morals clause (all player's have them), but when he joined the player's union he signed a contract to follow the Collective Bargaining Agreement that the union bargained for in good faith.

So, ironically, just like you say Jackie Robinson had a contract to honor....guess what!?!...So does Artest! And, I expect a MAN to honor a commitment. Don't you?

[democracyindanger]

30. And what, exactly, is the morals clause?

I know it exists. Now you tell me what it says--exactly. Then you can determine if Artest was "man" enough.

[THUNDER HANDS]

31. here you go

The morals clause is an essential component of endorsement contracts in professional sports. It is a form of termination clause, whereby it enumerates a variety of specific reasons for termination to protect the endorser's interest in its image or the image of its products that are affiliated with the athlete.

These clauses are justified because the athlete is under constant scrutiny from the public and the media. Transgressions that may occur could cause embarassment for the firm empoying the services of the athlete, especially when the athlete is convicted of a crime or engages in acts of "moral turpitude."

In addition to convictions, frequent morals clauses prohibitions include the use of drugs (illegal substances or steroids), acts of public disrepute (exposing himself in a public place), suspensions due to poor sportsmanship and public criticisms of the product the athlete is supposed to endorse.

Although rare, an athlete may impose a morals clause on the firm he or she represents. In such a case, the athlete could cancel the contract if , for example, the company engages in controversial activities such as environmental hazards, tobacco production or refusing to back gun control regulations.

Often, the moral clause involves some of the most important negotiations of the entire endorsement contract. Because it gives one side the right to terminate the entire deal with no penalty, the drafting of the language of the moral clause is extremely important.

http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/jargon/LJmorals.html

[democracyindanger]

35. "Now you tell me what it says--exactly."

Like I said, I know what the morals clause is. But what's the NBA's? What's the Pacers? Does reacting to a physical assault--and that's exactly what it was--meet the standard of violation?

You know what? You don't need to answer that, because I know you think it does--despite not knowing exactly what the morals clause is.

Personal morality and standards of behavior? Mine say: The fans that got smacked deserved it, as far as I'm concerned. That's not saying Artest is right. But you don't provoke a nutball like Artest without expecting--anticipating--a violent response. That holds true in any situation.

Artest isn't the worst participant in this mess. He's just the easiest one to point at. And that's not a claim of racism, either. Has nothing to do with the color of his skin. Has everything to do with people's love of dragging celebrities down from their pedestal for any reason.

[tx_dem41]

38. Wow...do you ever listen to yourself?

You have just said the following:

"But you don't provoke a nutball like Artest without expecting--anticipating--a violent response. That holds true in any situation."

So, I guess you feel that victims deserve what they get (we'll look past the fact that Artest hit the wrong guy). That's a sad statement when you think about it. If I leave my door unlocked, do I deserve to get robbed. If your girlfriend wears a sexy outfit, does she deserve to get raped? By your reasoning, she deserves rape and I deserve to be robbed. And THAT reasoning is dumbfounding as well as morally bankrupt.

[democracyindanger]

39. nice try

But no. I guess I should've been more precise. How about this: The aggressors (idiot fans who threw stuff and ran onto the court) deserved exactly what they got.

Denigrating the crime of rape by using it as analogy for what happened between a bunch of idiots? Suggesting I'm in the "rape is the victims fault" crowd? Talk about morally bankrupt reasoning. And if you left your house unlocked and DARED a known thief to steal from you, yeah, you would deserve it. I'd say it to your face. Sure, I'd feel bad for you, but I'd still say, "But you know, if you didn't want to test Mickey the Well-Known House Burglar, you shouldn't have told him you want him to try and rob you."

You want to paint the poor Detroit fans as "victims." Please. They were drunken idiots who instigated a fight. They could've yelled, cussed, thrown the stinkeye around--but instead, they turned it physical.

Like someone so sagely said in another thread on this: Detroit is just reaping the "Bad Boys" image they worked so hard to sow the past decade or so.

Speaking of which, anyone who says that Artest gave Wallace a cheap shot (any thereby arguing anyone from Michigan has nothing to do at all with escalating things) should look at some old Laimbeer film. Piston fans had no problem with rough play then, huh?

[tx_dem41]

70. Put me in the "Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right" Crowd

Or two wrongs don't lessen either wrong.

[tx_dem41]

33. Well....

most moral clauses cover embarrassing the team and/or yourself or breaking any laws,etc. Looks like Mr. Artest got a good start on all of the above (I agree that the jury is still out on the last part).

[Seabiscuit]

37. Bullshit.

"So, yeah, if it wasn't for that clause, I think Robinson would've gone after that fan."

Bullshit.

Jackie Robinson was a class act all the way, as was Roy Campanella. They knew they were paving the way for other African-Americans to make their way in baseball and they shouldered that responsibility like the real men they were. With consistent class, style, and poise, in face of constant racist barbs from the fans and often the press as well.

Basketball players these days are spoiled rotten brats. Baseball players in the 40's and 50's simply didn't behave like this.

[democracyindanger]

41. Why is the comparison to baseball players in the 40's and 50's

valid? Pro sports was a different animal then--most significantly, the players were property. Hell, the world was different then.

And maybe it's just me, but I think overeager applause for black players at the edge of integration for not saying anything is troubling. What's the lesson? Minorities in high-profile positions should keep their mouths shut? Make that argument, and it validates the reasoning that says, "If they weren't so accepting, maybe the Civil Rights movement would've won years earlier."

[Seabiscuit]

42. "Why is the comparison to baseball players in the 40's and 50's valid?"

Because the subject of the thread compares Artest with Jackie Robinson.

BTW, Robinson didn't "keep his mouth shut" about the racism he encountred. He condemned it publicly in interviews. He just didn't go running off half-cocked into the stands punching out fans.

I remember it all well because I lived through it all. You don't seem to have a clue.

[democracyindanger]

44. You're not getting it

My whole point is that COMPARING ROBINSON WITH ARTEST IS INVALID. You seem to think that I'm arguing that Artest rises to the level of Robinson. I'm not. And more to the point, COMPARING ROBINSON WITH ARTEST IS INVALID. Hell, comparing DAVID Robinson to Jackie Robinson is invalid. Different worlds. You want to take the half-century old actions of an athlete, unique not only for his gifts but for the role he played, and hold all current athletes to that standard? I call bullshit. It's like being pissed at Clinton for not being Jesus.

And a young man like Robinson, incredibly dignified, amazingly athletic, highly educated and fresh off a stint from the still-segregated-but-still-more-egalitarian-than-US-society-Army? To be subjected to the bullshit racist taunts and threats from crackers and morons who did nothing but sit on their fat asses, drink beer and live vicariously through his athleticism?

Yeah, I think a young guy, already known for protest, would do something. And I'd credit him for it.

You lived through it? Wow! What team did you sign with? How many at bats didja have?

You'd like to kill debate by saying I think Artest is Robinson's equal. Not even close. I'm saying Artest CAN'T, NOR SHOULD, EVEN BE HELD TO A JACKIE ROBINSON STANDARD.

[Seabiscuit]

46. Every ballplayer should be held to a Jackie Robinson standard.

"You'd like to kill debate by saying I think Artest is Robinson's equal."

Never said anything of the kind.

Robinson is the last person I'd equate Artest with.

Comparison does not equal "equate".

[sonicx]

47. i agree...

i don't think it's too much to expect players not to attack opposing fans (even if the fans are assholes).

[democracyindanger]

48. Now THAT's nonsense.

Jackie Robinson occupies a special place not only in US professional sport but US history. Holding all to that standard is not only unrealistic, but impossible.

Magic Rat pulled out one of the true saintly figures of both sports and history, and used him to show what a horrible person Artest is. I call bullshit.

You wanna argue that Ron Artest is no Tim Duncan? Fine. That's valid. Walter Payton? At least you'd be using somebody that's within a decade or so. But Robinson is one of the key figures in US Civil Rights history, during a period of incredible societal change. Using him as the standard may provide easy moralizing, but it's lazy.

[Seabiscuit]

49. I don't know why your panties are in such a bunch

but if you prefer, let's just compare Artest to Mike Tyson. Now there's a match - maturity, restraint, sportsmanship - the whole ball of wax.

[democracyindanger]

52. I'm just questioning the OP

Same as I'd question a post like "Clinton sucks because he isn't Lincoln" or even "Ashton Kutcher is evil because he's no Tim Robbins." It's a bad comparison. And it argues that Artest--or anyone, for that matter--is completely at fault because he shouldn't have reacted to those "fans."

But mostly, it's because those idiot fans instigated a situation that ruined the game. They're too fat, too old, too weak or too short to play in the NBA, but they think shelling out a couple hundred for a ticket buys them the right to throw shit at players. Any post that lambastes an individual player and gives the assholes in the spendy seats a pass deserves to be called out.

And I wear boxers, by the way. 'Cause even when they bunch, they don't pinch.

[sonicx]

50. "Jackie Robinson standard" = don't attack fans. seems fair to me. nt

[democracyindanger]

56. "Faith Henderson standard" = don't attack players. Seems fair to me. nt

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/12/offbeat.oldest.fan.ap/

[sonicx]

60. i agree. but the players get millions and...

are risking alot more than the asshole fan.

btw, 'nt' means 'no text.' you had text. :)

[LeftyMom]

51. Let's find a more achieveable standard and see how Artest stands up.

Okay, let's not hold Artest to Robinson's standard. Let's compare him to a modern day athlete under investigation and well known for his attitude problem. If Barry Bonds got hit with a beer can you picture him tearing off into the stands and pounding people? Now he'd almost certainly turn and give them "the look" and I don't think a certain rude gesture is outside the realm of possibility, but just charging into the stands? No way in hell.

Artest is batshit crazy. Absolutely unpredictable, no self control apparent at all. If he was behaving this way at any other place of employment in America he'd be fired and probably arrested.

This doesn't excuse the fans but sometimes fans do stupid shit (exhibit A: Oakland Raiders home games) and it's the job of the players to let the arena people handle it and play the damned game.

[democracyindanger]

53. Exactly. Almost.

Artest IS batshit crazy. But Palace security failed miserably, and even before that, the refs didn't control the game.

And all these comparisons between basketball and baseball? Before anyone makes another one, ask yourself how far and on how high of a wall baseball fans sit from the playing surface.

[Seabiscuit]

57. Apparently you've never been to a baseball game.

Except for the outfield, fans sit very close to field level. Very easy for a player to jump into 70% of the seating area adjoining the field and attack a fan.

The comparison isn't between basketball and baseball. The comparison is between irresponsible, juvenile conduct and responsible, adult conduct in *any* sport. The Jackie Robinson reference illuminates *that* comparison well.

[democracyindanger]

64. Ha!

I've been to plenty of pro baseball games. Maybe you're talking about AAA. And any baseball player that can jump into "70% of the seating area adjoining the field" isn't playing baseball, but is an Olympic high jumper.

[LeftyMom]

67. self delete

Nevermind, I replied to the wrong post.

[Seabiscuit]

54. It's known as "assumption of risk". If you're a ballplayer, and

the stadium you agree to play in sells beer to the fans, you assume the risk that some drunken fan might throw a cup of beer at you.

IOW, there simply is NO excuse for any player to throw punches at fans if hit with a cup of beer by a drunken fan. Artest's conduct was indefensible. Every ballplayer assumes that risk, legally, when they enter the arena/stadium/whatever.

That doesn't excuse any rowdy fans anywhere. It' just addresses the responsibility of the players.

[democracyindanger]

55. And if you throw a beer at a player

you assume the risk that you're gonna get punched. Simple as that.

People have quarters in their pockets at games. I guess it should be "assumed risk" that a player gets one thrown at him, and he should take it like a "man."

[sonicx]

58. notify security. disruptive fans being kicked out and...

not seeing a big game will hurt more than a punch.

[Seabiscuit]

59. You seem to know about as much about the law as you do about sports.

I've seen some ridiculous statements on DU, but this last one really takes the cake.

[democracyindanger]

63. That's rich

You throw out the "assumption of risk" legal nonsense, and then when I show the other side of the same reasoning, you get all grade-school about it.

Sure makes it easier to absorb the fact that you were thumped by your own logic, huh?

There are those who think Sean Penn was completely wrong when he punched paparazzi because they think becoming a movie star surrendered his rights as an individual. And there are those who don't. Count me in the don't. And comparing Sean Penn to Artest is a helluva lot more valid that comparing Artest to Jackie Robinson.

[Seabiscuit]

66. "thumped by your own logic" (???)

How old are you?

FYI, I am a seasoned 59 year old attorney. Don't lecture me about the law - something you clearly know nothing about. Your position is utterly wrong and completely untenable. Maybe you should ask an attorney in your town about "assumption of risk". He'll probably start talking about "contributory negligence" or "comparative negligence" (related legal doctrines) and really lose you... just keep him focused and he'll explain it to you. Nah, never mind. No attorney's going to get through to you. You just don't want to learn.

And your Sean Penn rambling is out in the ozone.

This discussion is about rules and the breaking of rules. Legality is therefore inherently part of the discussion.

Underneath all of your gibberish, you're still grasping wildly for some way to justify Artest's unjustifiable behavior, and that's just plain sad.

[WMliberal]

22. or how about the shit maris went through

people were throwing chairs at him. when he was hit with beer cups... shit, that was a good day. all season long. 3 hours a day. artest can't take 2 minutes of heckling and high tension.

[theboss]

34. The chair thing never happened

"61*" is a really good movie, but that scene was insanely stupid.

[Seabiscuit]

43. True. No one ever threw a chair at Maris. That was just Hollywood.

[Blue_Tires]

45. great post....n/t

[UpsideDownFlag]

61. that pretty much sums it up. nt

[DrGonzoLives]

62. Figures

a fan of a New York-area team would defend the actions of the fans in Detroit. After all, you people approve of throwing batteries and ice-encrusted snowballs at players and coaches. I guess buying a ticket entitles you to act like an asshole.

Remind me to chuck a beer at your head the next time I see you, since you are, after all, perfect and will not respond.

[Forkboy]

65. It was an Idiot-Fest! Plenty of blame for all involved

The players,the fans,and especially the idea the we need beer to enjoy a sporting event.

[Guaranteed]

68. Yeah, and how many times did Martin Luther King Jr. charge the stands?

HUH????

How about GANDHI???