Who is the person on the left of Jesus in DaVinci's The Last Supper

[LynneSin]

<<----The person on this side of Jesus
Is it a guy or is it a girl?

Yes I'm reading that book. And I never knew some of the stuff about the Last Supper but it's very interesting to read.

Edit Note: Here's a good closeup of that person

The one on the right

[TexasProgresive]

1. It's Mary Magdalen of course! n/t

[Gildor Inglorion]

2. I always thought it was John, the "Beloved Disciple"

But after reading "The DaVinci Code," I'm not so sure. What an interesting book. But the really creepy thing is the phantom hand holding the knife. :scared:

[LynneSin]

4. damn, I just posed a closeup of Mary/John and you can see the knife

:scared:

[jus_the_facts]

3. It's his WIFE....Mary Magdalene.........

....excellent book....couldn't put it down..finished it in a day! :thumbsup: WAY UP!! :hi:

[asthmaticeog]

5. Not sure, but

the figure on the extreme left might be Pagerbear.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

6. Oh please - you fail to point out the glaringly positive aspects of this

Get over yourselves people! :eyes:

[LynneSin]

8. Please expand

....you mean about why it's Mary Magdeline and the whole history behind it? I really didn't want to seem like I was spoiling the book. Or are you speaking of something else. Please expand!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

10. Whoops - sorry Lynn - damned form auto fill. I meant to just say

"Oh Please"

I just feel that that is Mary his mother there. There is no mention of whether she was there or wasn't. I feel like the Mary Magdelene as his wife thing is such a stretch that it plays to peoples' conspiracy theory fetishes. If you really look through western (especially Italian) art history at depictions of the Virgin it fits the mold perfectly.

[LynneSin]

11. you have a valid point there too

I'm just stunned at the stuff I learned about the painting. I mean, I think that person on the left of Jesus is the only one without any hint of facial hair.

And the knife thing is just creepy. I'm thinking that is actually Judas (since he does stab Jesus in the back so to speak)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

12. Don't forget the very feminine way John the Evangelist "the disciple

Jesus loved" has been painted in the renaiscance.

I'm not even trying to spell correctly today

[LynneSin]

14. yeah I know - you even screwed up spelling my name

:crazy:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

16. I forgot the E didn't I - D'OH!!!

:)

[Enraged_Ape]

19. Why is the Mrs. Mary Magdalene Christ idea such "a stretch"?

I mean, any more of a stretch than the immaculate conception or God-in-human-form stories that the churches have been pushing for the last two thousand years?

Jesus seems to have been a very prominent religious teacher of his day. Why is it "a conspiracy theory" to think that, like most Jewish men of his day in their early thirties, he was married, or at least "hooked up"?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

21. Why is it not?

Sounds like a conspiracy theory 2000 years after the fact

[Enraged_Ape]

23. I told you why it wasn't

Because it would have been highly unusual for a Jewish man of his age, influence, and era NOT to have been married.

And this isn't exactly a "new" conspiracy theory. "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" came out over 20 years ago, and it includes references to mutterings about this idea going back many centuries.

I don't know whether I believe the theory or not. I'm leaning towards believing it because it makes sense to me. It's easier for me to believe that than all the other horseshit the church has been pushing for 2,000 years.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. Yes I heard you but thats as equally untenable as saying he was the son of

God - these are theories. I think people are grasping at straws based on an undelying anti-christian bias.

[Enraged_Ape]

28. I don't have an anti-Christian bias

But I think if a person believes that Jesus was God incarnate and somehow brought his own deceased and entombed body back to life, this person should be thoroughly willing to accept any other outlandish idea presented to them about Jesus of Nazareth--including the "shocking" notion that he may have been (gasp) MARRIED!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

30. could have happened - who knows?

I just hate to see people get all frothing about this stuff

I personally find all of this inconsequential

[Cheswick2.0]

55. except he wasn't just any Jewish man of that era

even if you do not believe he was the Messiah, you have to admit there was nothing "usual" about his life.

[chiburb]

43. Does this help any?

Both Matthew and Luke stated that Jesus; conception was not a commonplace one. In these gospels Mary was a virgin who became pregnant, not through sexual intercourse, but through the "power of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:34-35). The gospel of Matthew explicitly mentioned that this virgin pregnancy took place in fulfillment of the scriptures:
Matthew 1:22-23
And this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin is with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel-which means 'God is with us'".


Matthew is quoting the book of Isaiah (7:14) from the Septuagint. The word for virgin is rendered in the Greek Bible as parthenos. This word carries the explicit meaning of virgin. However, if we are to look at the Bible in its original Hebrew, from the massoretic text, the word used there is almah. Now the nearest English translation for almah is a young woman and does not carry with it any strong connotation of virginity. <1> To show how far almah is from the meaning of virginity, I have quoted below some passages from the Old Testament where the word was used:

The word is used to describe occupants of a harem in the Songs of Solomon:

Songs of Solomon 6:8
There are sixty queens and eight concubines, and almah without number.


The occupants of harems are not, as a rule, virgins.
Finally we have a passage from Proverbs:

Proverbs 30:18-19
Three things are too wonderful for me; four I do not understand; the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the midst of the sea, and the way of a man in an almah.


Surely it could not be a virgin that is being referred to above. So while the use of the Hebrew word can sometimes mean a young girl of marriable age, as for instance, when it was applied to Rebecca before her marriage to Isaac (Genesis 24:43), sometimes simply a woman (see Proverbs 30:18-19 above) and sometimes even for women in a harem!

If the author of Isaiah wanted to make clear the prophecy, he would not have used the word almah for all the ambiguity that it entails. He would have chosen the Hebrew word that does explicitly mean a virgin: bethulah. This word would have been the Hebrew equivalent for the Greek parthenos. The Greek equivalent for almah should actually be neanis, which means young woman.

Matthew's assertion of the virgin birth being prophesied in the scripture is therefore based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for a young woman. The virgin birth is nowhere prophesied in the original Hebrew. <2>

Back to the top

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/virgin.html

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

51. Not buyin it

Songs of Solomon 6:8
There are sixty queens and eight concubines, and almah without number.


Queens also don't hang out in harems too often

Proverbs 30:18-19
Three things are too wonderful for me; four I do not understand; the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the midst of the sea, and the way of a man in an almah.

Sounds like a man who doesn't know about how to have sex and, especially when you're talking about the "ideal proverbial" girl, the girl to have is a virgin

A good try though. I don't think Matthew mistranslated Isaah and thus Christ wasn't who he said he was. I'm sure you'll say I'm brainwashed. Oh well

[Cheswick2.0]

54. because I think the story would have been told and because

Jesus was not a hypocrite. He asked his disciples to leave their families and follow him.

I think Mary Magdalene was a disciple just like the others and she was with them most of the time. But society being what it was then, no matter how Jesus accepted her, the boys club kicked her out after he died.

[AntiCoup2K4]

60. Perhaps Jesus DIDN't get married because He thought of it as irresponsible

Jesus had an "advantage" (for lack of a better word) over most people contemplating marriage. He knew that he would die at the age of 33 and even though He would be resurrected, unable to remain on Earth for very long with a wife and family. Though I don't believe the Scriptures specify exactly when Joseph died, it's likely that it's when Jesus was still a teenager, or in His early 20's, leaving Him to help His mother Mary raise his younger half-siblings. Having experienced growing up without a father figure Himself, and watching his younger siblings deal with the same, maybe He didn't want to ask His own children to make that sacrifice, so as a result, He didn't allow for any to exist.

Just a theory, but if I were in that place, it's probably what I would have done.

[sniffa]

7. Laura bush

[jus_the_facts]

9. bwahahahaha....

:evilgrin:

[Champion Jack]

13. It's his brother Jeff

[Cheswick2.0]

56. James

His brother's name was James I think

[AntiCoup2K4]

62. James and Jude were two of them

I don't remember how many half-brothers JC had, but in keeping with the "J" theme that seems to be in play here, I guess "Jeff" might have been a possibility if there were other brothers.

[Magrittes Pipe]

15. Waldo.

Spectacles and striped woolen hats were not in style back then; but that is CLEARLY Waldo.

[Spinzonner]

17. Zelig

[Peachhead22]

18. BTW...

I think the painting has been cleaned. I seem to remember I looked up that painting on the web after I read the book. It was much clearer than it is here and the figure is definitely a woman (or a very feminine looking man).

[Beer Snob-50]

20. Ya got to remember that the book is fiction

(although many think the bible is that also). I think the picture is that of a very effemiate John.

[lapfog_1]

24. And please don't forget

that the painting is too. It's by no way a contemporary painting
to the actual event. Almost as much time had passed between the
Last Supper and DaVinci painting it as between the Last Supper and
today. Almost. So all that matters is (as far as the painting goes)
is what DaVinci believed as far as who was there and so on,
interpreted through the eyes of the Renaissance. If someone today
painted the Last Supper, using the "Lost Books of the Bible" as
source for fanciful painting, and became a famous artist, 500 years
later people would be having much the same discussion about that
painting. Of course, everyone in it would be wearing leisure suits
or something.

[oneighty]

50. It is just a painting done

well after the supposed happening. Somewhere there must be a photograph or video-tape one might think.

180

[Cheswick2.0]

57. So you are saying Davinci wasn't at the Last Supper

and this painting was not painted from a photo?

[Radical Activist]

37. The idea of Mary M being Jesus' wife didn't start with that book

I guess you know that, but I thought Jesus was married long before that book came out.

[Beer Snob-50]

41. There has been lots of different stories about Jesus

some that he was married, and some that maybe he was gay. You know that he had a fondest for showtunes and Liza Minelli.

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. That's John, the "beloved disciple".

Here's an image with the disciples labelled.

[LynneSin]

26. then who is holding the knife

Clearly that hand belongs to know one unless John/Mary has an ultra long reach

[Magrittes Pipe]

27. That's me.

John's been lookin' at me funny.

I'ma cut him.

[LynneSin]

29. YOU'RE BANNED FROM THIS THREAD

This is a serious discussion - no hijacking here! Go hijack one of sus's threads, she's a loser anyways!!!


note: I can call sus a loser because I know her and she is my friend

[Magrittes Pipe]

32. You're a loser.

But yeah, sus is a loser, too.

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. Judas. And it's not a knife.

It's a bag of coins. Thirty pieces of silver, to be exact.

[LynneSin]

36. that is so a knife

well it looks like one. But I do think that is actually Judas's hand holding the knife/bag of coins which then frees up the person on the left to be Mary and John to actually be the person they say is Judas!

[Bucky]

33. I'll bet it's a butter knife. Remember, this is pre-spreadable butter era

[mrboba1]

38. Well, it is a right hand

so it isn't Judas, because you can see his right hand.
It can't be John, because you can see his right arm coming down to the right (in the pic) of Judas.
And it can't be Peter, because he his elbow is pointing in the same direction as the knife (you try that at home!)

In fact, everyone's right hand is present in the picture except John, Peter and James Minor (using post #22's picture), and all three are ruled out.

???

[LynneSin]

39. But my reasoning for Judas

Is combined with the belief that the person to the left is a woman which leaves just 11 disciples left in the painting. So you move John (which is who they think the person on the left of Jesus is) over to the Judas position and then Judas can be the hand with the knife (which ironically Judas did 'stab in the back' Jesus

[arwalden]

34. Mel Brooks!!

[daddybear]

35. It is a painting

so it is no one, but it is said to represent John, the Beloved Disciple...

[UpsideDownFlag]

40. i'm pretty sure that is just an artist's rendering.

it probably isn't 100 percent accurate.

[RetroLounge]

42. I'm pretty sure that's Zombywoof

He brought the coffee to the dinner...

RL

[ronnykmarshall]

44. Alice the waitress.

Ya need a re-fill on your wine, Jesus hon?

Yous guys wanna look at the desert menu?

Hey! Watch the hands, Mac. Try put your hand on my ass one more time, yous gonna draw back a bloody stump.

Sorry hon, we don't take Discover Card. VISA, MASTER CARD and gold pieces only.

[Radical Activist]

49. You can get anything you want...

[sister_rosa_refried]

52. At Alice's resturant.

I love that tune, dear.

[Christof]

45. Mary Magdalen

[redqueen]

46. Mary Magdalene

of course. :)

[sister_rosa_refried]

53. Is that the gal married to Carvell?

[redqueen]

59. Good heavens, no!

That's Matalin... with an 'evil'.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

47. That would be his wife, of course.... Mary M.

The only Apostle with enough balls to go see His body when all the men were hiding in the upper room.

[VOX]

48. Looks like Mini-Me

:evilgrin:

[curse10]

58. Me

and let me tell you, I'd rather not have Oldy McOldyman with his white beard so close to me!

[tom_paine]

61. Mary Magdalene?

Was she supposed to be at the Last Supper?