A vegetarian/vegan problem...

[alaine]

What do you do about pet food? I have three dogs, and am pretty broke, so am buying dog food even though I don't eat meat or wear animal products. Eventually I want to get away from feeding them this junk (I have had two dogs die of cancer), but I can't afford to right now. Are there any commercially made vegetarian dog foods? I don't have cats so I don't have to grapple with that one, I know cats MUST have some meat. MY other animals are birds and rabbits, so they are not an issue. Does anyone out there make their own pet food? What are some good recipes, or recipe books? Thanks.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. Lots of people do, google vegan dogs or some such...

However, Dogs have to have some meat too... if they don't get it from you, they will get it from garbage or dead things which can make them sick.
Better to give them what they need, IMHO.

[alaine]

6. Thanks. What my dogs do on their own time is their

business : ) I'd rather actually get responses from folks that have tried the brands or recipes than google because I can't afford to make a hefty financial investment in something my dogs won't eat. Some "health food" dog foods I have bought, although not vegetarian, have ended up as compost because the animals just would not eat them. I think the point about dogs needing meat is a point of contention, maybe it will piss some vegans off enough to respond. I know they need protein, but the meat part is debatable.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

7. You are right, I should have said protein, which to a dog is...

meat.
I see what you mean. I will ask a friend of mine who does it.

[alaine]

11. Since superfly deems you of delicate emotional

constitution I am posting this in apology for having responded in a way that displeases him/her. I am aware of your previous username and had no previous indication of your delicate condition. Please grant me forgiveness.

on edit: I did indeed err in not thanking you for asking your friend. Much obliged.

[Superfly]

13. Jeez

c'mon, now. There's no need to get snippy.

And, please, do not put words into my mouth. I do not think he/she is of delicate emotional constitution, I think that your response was inappropriate. If you want to avoid pissing contests, don't unzip.

B

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

45. Not a problem. I was not aware of my condition either

I slept real well whilst you two were sparring.
Anyway, I will see my friend on Monday, and I have the question written down.
Peace.

[Superfly]

8. Nice response

somebody actually gives an opinion and you throw it back in their face? Nice.

What do canines eat? Meat. Can they exist on plant matter alone? Who knows, but are you going to jeopardize the health of your dog to find out?

If you want to be a vegan, fine, but don't submit another species, to your version of gastronomic morality.

B

[alaine]

10. Please a) re-read the part of the post where I asked

about VEGETARIAN dog food. (not vegan, I don't know where you got that from, the vegan part in the thread title was to attract the attention of vegans so they would answer the thread. Also, having worked in health food stores for years I can tell you that most vegans and vegetarians are far more knowledgeable about nutrition than the average consumer, and this includes knowing their pets' nutritional requirements. I thought the tone of the post was entirely civil but will post wjms with an apology for any unintended ire rankling if it will make you happy. It saddens me that one cannot even post a query on here without it turning into a pissing contest, that is just heartbreaking to me, really.

[Superfly]

12. You started it

with the comment on what your dogs do on their time....

Still, canines and felines require certain nutrients derived from animal sources. To deprive them of that so that they fall in line with your gastronomic habits is wrong.

B

[alaine]

14. Not scientifically valid.

But if you feel it is wrong, then how is it okay for you to try to force your moral beliefs on me and my pets? You'd do well to re-read the part of the post where I say that I have had two pets die of cancer which is an emotionally devastating experience. Meat that goes into dog food is not fit for human consumption. Meat that humans eat is full of hormones, steroids and anti-biotics. Recently one company that makes meat by-products into dog chews like pigs ears and rawhide bones issued a recall of their products based on the fact that the products were dangerous for HUMANS to even touch, because the chemicals they were treated with were so poisonous. Hills science diet has very good product information about the nutritional requirements for dog food and it is absolutely harrowing what goes into these products.

I am %100 convinced that both of my dog's deaths were attributable to their diet of commercially made dog food, something someone in a pet-loss support group suggested after saying that her pets had been on vegetarian diets for over ten years.

I had absolutely no idea when I posted this that I would end up arguing with the cattle rancher's associaton. If you want to voice your pro-meat mea culpa's then have at it, I'm gonna forget about it and continue with my quest for a good vegetarian dog food and await the day when you and I and anyone else crying foul here are in absolute agreement on something and can be on friendly terms, because I absolutely hate this D.U. bitchiness.

[Superfly]

16. I'm not trying to force anything

you are, presumably, an adult and can make up your own mind.

I feed my dog a diet of dried dog food. It's #1 ingredient is lean beef. Other ingerdients include vegetable and other plant matter. He's healthy, has a beautiful coat, is very trim (and we keep his bowl full 100% of the time).

I do not represent the cattle ranchers association and your touchiness to the thread and DU's "bitchiness" indicate that you may favor another website or forum? Just a question...so don't get bent out of shape.

If you have not already, try posing your question at http://www.veggieboards.com I frequent and post there often and it can be a good exchange of ideas on veg*n topics.

[alaine]

15. There was a little smiley behind that sentence, it was a

joke... A little defensive, eh?

[Superfly]

17. Nope, not at all.

you, on the other hand, seem itching for a fight. Perhaps a "timeout" is in order?

[alaine]

20. This is absolutely ridiculous.

I am offended by the suggestion that I would in any way put my pets' health at risk or would even post this without knowing for a fact that their nutritional reccomendations can be satisfied by a vegetarian diet. Quite cloying. I think you're confusing "itching for a fight" with my ability to defend myself and my convictions. This thread has now been successfully high-jacked over a non-issue.
You have absolutely no right to suggest I find another web-site, I have just as much right to be here as you do, and more and more folks are complaining about the lack of civility here. I am sorry that you insisted on seeing sarcasm and ire in my post that absolutely was not there. A time-out would be wonderful as this serious of postings is the most negative experience I have had since I have been posting here, yet I know at some point we will find ourselves on the same side of the fence on some issue or another. Al Sharpton said democrats would do well not to squabble so much, being that "the republicans are watching."

[Superfly]

21. Hey, calm down...

you need to grow a little thicker skin here in DU. If your offended by what I post, hit the alert button and let the mods decide.

I suggested the other website, http://www.veggieboards.com because you could probably get some pretty accurate information there. Are you so conceited that you will not even look? For crap's sake. This is the health of your pet, whom I'm sure you love, and you owe it to him/her to have all the information possible before subjecting him/her to a diet that may be harmful.

I have every right to suggest you find another website. Wether or not you follow that suggestion is your right. Once again, that address is http://www.veggieboards.com

The lack of civility stems from your part. Not knowing the full scope of your query, I proposed a source of information that you may find useful, yet you continue to pick at that scab.

I am not squabbling with you. I have stated my opinion: you should not submit your animal to a vegan/vegetarian diet without all the facts. And I have suggested a source of information that may help you choose a healthy lifestyle for your pet. You seem to have a problem with that, for whatever reason.

B

[alaine]

25. Once again...

I have all the facts. I would not have posted this thread without knowing for sure it was nutritionally healthier for my pet to be on a vegetarian diet than to be eating commercially made dog food. Thanks for the link but I am far more interested in the name of the food that you feed your pet. I notice you spoke highly of it but then you did not name it. I'm curious as to why I am being told to"calm down". Are you not used to dealing with people who can defend themselves? Now you are calling me "conceited". It's too weird. I'm trying to make sense of it and the only rational thing I can come up with is that you are really pro-meat and are trying to escalate this thread into a flame war so it will get locked, or something. FYI, why do you think that anything you've done is worth bothering the mods over? Minor irritations are not worth their time.

[Superfly]

27. Wow

me thinks you have issues. In that website, there are about 10,000 veg*ns who really might be able to help you with those names.

The pet food I feed my dog has meat in it, and you indicated that you are not interested in those products because of some OBTUSE link to deforestation and SA tribes.

Your so called "defense" is nothing more than an array of widely scattered postulations that somehow the dogfood industry is causing the rainforest to disappear? When you graduate junior highschool, come back and we'll talk...OK?

B

[alaine]

29. You first.

[Superfly]

32. Me first what?

Are you trying to come back with some sort of jab? If so, give it up. If you are going to make assertions that the dogfood industry is leading to tropical deforestation, you better be able to back them up. So far, your arguments amount to nothing more than a little child's wild speculation and random cause/effect conclusions.

B

[alaine]

37. No sir. I don't have to back up any thing.

My request was for vegetarian/vegan folks to provide me with info on what they feed their animals and why. Why you are convinced that I "had better be able to back" up any claims, is beyond me. I'm sad that this whole interchange has taken place because it's just made me not care for someone whose username I've never even seen on here before, while my ends have not yet been met, and I sadly do not think I have educated you out of your ignorance, and I am sure you would (and probably will) say the same thing of me.

P.S. it's not the "dog food industry". It's the whole cattle ranching industry.

[AnnabelLee]

2. This is what I feed our dog

& it cleared up his skin problem that over $1,000 of vet bills couldn't. It is priced less than Science Diet or Eukanuba, etc, at least in my area.

http://www.naturesrecipe.heinzpetproducts.com/pages/dogproducts/allergy/vegetarian.asp

On edit: If you click to their home page, they have a store finder.

[alaine]

18. Thanks, I think I have used Nature's Recipe for some-

thing else in the past, like dog "bones" or something. Very much appreciated, thank for the link!

[SmileyBoy]

3. Well, cats have like 27,000 taste buds, so my theory is...

...that they'll love ANYTHING that you serve them, because their taste sensation is so sensitive. I feed my kitty naturally made corn/vitamin food, and she seems to love it just fine.

As for dogs, I would assume that you could feed them some types of dry Hills Science Diet food that are meat free, and made from corn and wheat.

And I would NEVER recommend feeding a dog a vegan diet. A vegetarian one seems fine, but you're REALLY gambling with a dog's health by going vegan. It's one thing to be a human and choose to be vegan, I have nothing wrong with that. But dogs are different, and their required nutrients are different than a humans. You're really jeopardizing the health of your dog, if you're depriving him/her of essential nutrients/vitamins.

I would also be careful and cautious in just giving my dog a vegetarian diet as well, cause dogs are naturally carnivourous, unlike humans, who are omnivorous.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

4. K-9's generally aren't omnivours in nature,

much less vegetarians. Thanks to humans they have became both. But anyway, why don't you just give them vegetables that you by from the market?

[aquaman]

5. I have had a similar problem

I am a vegetarian and attempted to try various veg. dog foods for my dog and he hated it, refused to eat it, and began to lose weight. So I gave up, I feel bad that he eats a meat based dog food, but I like my dog. So, if anyone has a recommendation regarding a veg. based dog food that your dog likes let me know also. The only veg. dog food that I have found that he likes is a box of "treats" called Mr Pugsly's, its an all natural peanut butter based treat. I think they taste great, I mean, my dog likes them so try those.

[alaine]

9. Mr. Pusglys rock! My dogs like just about any kind of

peanut butter flavored treats, unlike some others that they turned their noses up at.

[classics]

19. If you didnt keep your dog in brutal captivity...

would it choose to naturally eat meat? If so, why deny it the normal, natural, healthy diet it deserves?

If youre concerned that dog food it made from low grade meat, feed him meat from the grocery store.

[alaine]

22. Humans eat meat from the grocery store.

Because of that healthy grocery store diet, the many of the top causes of death among humans are diet related. Once again, I repeat, meat for human consumption is full of hormones, steroids and antibiotics. Supporting this market also contibutes to the problem of deforestation of the South American rainforest, and the removal of indigenous peoples from their land, not to mention lengthening the list of endangered species of animals and plants. The beef industry is about 1 thing, profit; human health and environmental issues do not come into play, and the further away I can get from supporting this industry the happier I will be. I mean, it doesn't make sense to me to add to environmental pollution and rainforest destruction by killing an animal to feed my dog. I pretty much have no choice now, because I'm broke. All the more reason to vote democratic in '04.

[classics]

23. Again, in the wild.

Dogs choose meat. They dont run down other animals because the beef industry has whore who lobby Washington, they do it because thats what they desire to eat.

If dogs naturally choose to eat grass instead of other animals then it would appropriate to feed it to them, but they dont.

[Superfly]

24. Agreed

although I believe the bulk of a carnivore's (canines/felines) should be meat based, there are nutrients that can be derived from plants and non-meat sources.

To deny an animal what they normally eat based upon a human's gastronomic morality is wrong. If a person has a problem with that, maybe he/she should not have a pet in the first place?

B

[aquaman]

26. as a vegetarian you may be surprised that .........

I agree with you. I wish dogs could eat what I eat but they can't. I would never deprive my animal his/her health because of my own choice not to eat meat. I asked my vet once about a vegetarian diet for my dog, and he as a vegetarian and a friend of mine said, "your dog needs meat, it natural." I wish that were not the case, but if you choose to have a dog you have to feed him/her what is healthy for them. I am picky about the meat based food that I get for my dog and get it at the "natural food" store.

[alaine]

33. You should know vets make profitable deals with dog

food companies to carry certain brands at their businesses. That's why you see some brands displayed and not others. Hills is the most popular one, because of it's presciption diet, but I have also seen eukanuba and IAMS at vets as well.

[REP]

43. Companion Animal Feed

Hills is made by the Hills Co in Topeka KS. IAMS and Eukanuba are now made by Procter and Gamble. All three brands are of inferior quality (plenty of ground corn, which cats can't digest any better than humans can), use downer animals and by-products, and Hills uses a pesticide (ethyquoxin) as a preservative. I do not keep dogs, but I presume the quality of their canine feeds is equally abysmal.

Nature's Recipe and Nutro's Natural Choice are high-quality companion animal foods; they are not, however, vegetarian. High quality animal foods are more expensive per bag, but tend to be more economical as the animal requires less food to get full nutritional requirements. Nature's Recipe (feline) is corn-free, and Nutro uses corn gluten meal, which is far more digestible. Nutro Natural has beet fiber.

[alaine]

28. Have you ever worked in an animal shelter?

Ever seen scores of healthy animals euthanized because they became inconvenient to their owners, or produced offspring that were not convenient either? I'd wager a subtantial amount of money these animals would be eternally grateful for any home, especially one in which the owner was able to feed them commercially made dog food, or put them on a vegetarian diet . They'd have hit pay dirt. I'd also wager that about 95% of what most domestic pets eat bears no resemblance to what you refer to as "what they normally eat" in the wild. Your concern for my pets is duly noted though. I am sure they will be touched.

[Superfly]

30. As a matter of fact....

I've volunteered at a wildlife rehabilitation center at my college (WSU) and an animal shelter in Germany.

I do not think dogs and cats can express emotions such as gratefulness, but I see where your going. In both places, the animals were put on diets befitting thier species, not the whim or morality of the owner/caretaker.

For example, we had 2 adult elk at one time (at WSU) that had severe skin abscesses due to a heretofore unknown disease. Being a meat eater, I would never presume to throw a slab of top sirloin down in front of them and expect them to live healthy lives based upon a meat diet.

The converse is also true, I would not put a bed of greens down in front of a carnivore (like a DOG) and expect it to derive the appropriate nutrients because I *feel* that it should be vegetarian. That's wrong.

B

[aquaman]

31. Jesus,

I keep agreeing with you, this is scary.

[Superfly]

34. Thanks!

And it's not too scary. I would never presume to impose my sense of morality or diet upon another species.

[alaine]

35. Why am I not surprised that you don't think animals

"express emotions like gratitude." Why am I not surprised you think there is only one kind of protein, that being animal flesh? And only one other food group, vegetables? Correct me if I am wrong but it is illegal to euthanize healthy animals in Germany, as I understand it they are the only country in the world with a law forbidding this, which makes German animal shelters quite a different place from one anywhere else. A vegetarian diet with a sufficient amount of protein is as healthy as any diet a domestic dog would eat in the wild (if they found themselves abandoned or lost) and would bear no less similarity to the health of the diet of a wild dog eating commercial produced dog food. (I'm really trying to follow the logic, here.)

[aquaman]

36. I really would like to go with your position.....

But, as mentioned in a previous post, I have a close friend that is a Vet., and a vegetarian, and basically in nice language he told me I was a moron to think that I could put my dog on a vegetarian diet and him be as healthy as he should be. I trust him, he has no other motive than to tell me the truth and I've known him since I was a kid.

[alaine]

39. That's really cool. My experience with the veterinary

industry was not so positive. But then, only one of the vets I have worked for was a vegetarian, the rest were good ol' boys extroadinaire. The thread wasn't started about a position, it was a query to find out what vegetarians and vegans feed their pets.
Why it has escalated like this is beyond me, and really sad, actually. It hasn't changed anything in that I will still try to find my pets the best food I can for the, most reasonable price. I had a feeling that there were alot of veggies on here, though maybe not at this time of the night. I'll just have to re-post this later at another time of day.

[REP]

42. If "These Animals" Includes Cats - BULLSHIT

Cats DIE a slow, agonizing death on vegan/vegetarian diets. Attempting one on a companion cat is the sickest, nastiest, most revolting form of human fucking vanity. Humans can live on a variety of diets; cats cannot. Please do not post dangerous misinformation about shelter cats being grateful for the excruciatingly painful death a vegan/vegetarian diet gives. Euthanasia in a shelter is a far kinder and more humane death.

[inthecorneroverhere]

38. can you make or get veggie burger?

Could you make or buy soy-based veggie burger for them? Will the dogs eat veggie burger?

Make sure the dogs get some vitamin supplements if they're on a veggie diet.

[alaine]

40. Thanks for the suggestion.

Some of the diets that are suggested for pets have kind of the same ingredients in them, like peanut butter and soy. I have also heard of many that include brown rice. Gee, I would very much prefer to find out about a health food dog food I could buy than have to make one, because I tried to do that once and it was SO expensive buying the ingredients. Someone suggested Nature's Recipe; I have heard of the brand, but the dog food is not carried anywhere around here. There are alot of health food dog foods my dogs just will not eat. They sniff them and then look up at me like "you've got to be kidding". But those are ones with meat in them. I've never brought home one that was exclusively vegetarian. Practically anything would be better than what they are eating now.

[inthecorneroverhere]

41. as a trial

Rather than get a whole lot of ingredients,

Might try buying some pre-made veggie burger, cooking it up for yourself as a meal, and seeing if the dogs will eat the table scraps -

[lazarus]

44. problem with that

Dogs will eat cat shit. That doesn't mean it's all they need to eat.