Forgiveness

[Bertha Venation]

I like to discuss forgiveness. My last attempt at a message board discussion on the topic (at a different forum) was instructive and surprising. After I've had some responses here, I'll post what I think about forgiveness, and I'll post the gist of the responses I got on the other forum.

Definition: By forgiveness, I mean Person A forgiving Person B for wrongs that Person B committed against Person A. More simply: you break my nose. Either I forgive you or I don't forgive you.

For the purposes of this thread I do not wish to discuss political or religious things! Please don't get into tangents about whether the country will ever forgive * for the economy or the war or whether Iraqis, Muslims, or the whole world will ever forgive the United States for what *'s done in our name. And please, if you believe in such things, don't go on about God's forgiveness and who gets it and who doesn't, or that if you're religious you must forgive, etc. Please, just for this thread, no such diversions. Thanks.

Now:

What do you think of forgiveness? Is it important for one to forgive another? Is it even possible? Is it necessary?

Is forgiveness an excuse? If so, why? If not, what is it?

Have you ever felt the need to forgive someone? Have you done it? Because you wanted to? Because you felt you had to?

Did you ever forgive someone as his/her dying wish? Did you mean it?

Have you withheld forgiveness from someone who requested it? Have you done so even if you knew it was the right thing for you to do?

I may re-post this thread as # 2 in a few days, depending upon what kind of response this thread gets.

Thanks, all, for sharing your thoughts on forgiveness with me.

[camero]

1. A try

At one point it involves accepting that something happened and moving past the original slight. It doesn't make it any better or worse. It's just more of the fact that you move on. Forgiveness is mostly for the forgiver and not just the forgiven.

[Bertha Venation]

2. get out of my brain, Camero

you're reading my philosophy right off my own brain wrinkles . . . :)

[camero]

3. I repent.

I have forgiven alot. It's easier to do when the person who wrongs you says they're sorry but it has to be done whether they are or not so that the anger doesn't consume you.

Sorry, I think I did it again. :)

[Bertha Venation]

6. s'okay... you're forgiven

;) couldn't wait to say that

(You're right, you did it again.)

[camero]

7. Thank You

I am forever indebted. :)

[wtmusic]

4. It's impossible

without remorse on the part of the transgressor.

[Bertha Venation]

5. Do you mean for you, or in general?

I believe it is possible.

[wtmusic]

10. In general

You could forgive someone who hurt you and had no remorse whatsoever?

You're a better person than I.

[Bertha Venation]

11. not better; I just find it necessary

for my healing.

Forgiveness is a subjective thing. While I find its value immeasurable in my own life, and I think it would help a great many people to get over horrible wrongs done to them, I will never push it as "the cure."

[wtmusic]

12. I know what you're saying

IMO there's a difference between forgiveness and 'getting over it'. If I'm wronged by someone who shows no remorse, I'll get over it. We'll never be friends though.

[Bertha Venation]

18. Indeed, there's a difference between forigving & "getting over it."

No doubt.

I've forgiven one person who remains in my life (only because he's my father), two who are no longer in my life, and a fourth who is dead. None of them asked for my forgiveness and I imagine only my father felt he needed it. It's worthless to him -- everything I do is, because I'm gay -- but I didn't do it for him.

Of the four, only my father has shown remorse, and I forgave him before he did so. :shrug:

I'm not a good person because of this. It's just something I need to do to survive.

[NightTrain]

8. It's easy for me to forgive others for the harm they've done to me.

What I find a hell of a lot more difficult is forgiving myself for the harm I've caused others--even if they've already forgiven me!

[SarahB]

9. Forgiveness is for yourself

Holding on to negativity only hurts you more. For major things though when the person feels no remorse or is still acting in the same hurtful ways, it shouldn't mean being a doormat or continuing to take it. Some people are emotionally unhealthy and shouldn't be allowed much in your life to be hurtful. I have a family member like this and it's achingly painful at times. I can forgive, but I can't let myself trust either when the person has no remorse.

[Bertha Venation]

19. remorse & trust

I wouldn't trust my father as far as I could throw him, even though he is sorry for how he hurt me. Still, he's forgiven. I don't think forgiving has to mean you return to trusting that person.

[amazona]

13. I think it's pretty meaningless actually

Not a popular point of view, I realize, but I've never much seen the relevance of forgiveness to my life. If all forgiveness means is that I don't sit around plotting how to get my revenge, then fine, I'm very forgiving. But if forgiveness means taking the jerk back into my life, nope, sorry, I don't have time for that. There are 6 billion people in the world. They're not all getting second chances. Life is too short.

Anger and bitterness are important survival mechanisms. Healing is, to me, meaningless if it means I don't learn from my mistakes and continue to allow certain people with certain attitudes to impact negatively on my life.

The anger that wells up when I remember certain wrongs done to me...it is nature's way of reminding me that I am a person worthy of being treated decently and that I have a human right as a person to be justifiably angry at injustice and mistreatment. What good comes of forgiveness and papering things over, really? It comes from lack of self esteem. The fear that you can't get another friend or partner who would treat you better.

A lot depends on the nature of the harm you're talking about, of course. Accidents do happen, reasonable people can disagree, etc. But when you are talking about Person A deliberately ripping me off or deliberately stabbing me in the back or what have you, no, forgiveness shouldn't be in the picture. I have too much respect for myself for that.

[Bertha Venation]

20. "if forgiveness means taking the jerk back into my life" -- hell, no

I got a lot of derision when I started this discussion on a different forum because most of the regulars assumed that this is exactly what I meant by forgiveness. Unfortunately, nothing I said could disabuse them of it.

I've forgiven people for harm that most people can't imagine, precisely because I do respect myself. I couldn't stop being angry -- which anger was killing me -- until I forgave.

edit: Forgiving these people does not mean I ever allowed them to hurt me again. Quite the contrary. I'm not talking about nonsense that some people think is forgiveness, such as taking back your husband who has repeatedly beat the shit out of you. That's not forgiveness: that's thinking you're worthless coupled with helpless stupidity.

Please note I am speaking only for myself. I said upthread I'd never push this on anyone else.

[TreasonousBastard]

14. "Forgiveness" can mean many things.

It can be passive, as you and a few others have mentioned so far. Essentially, that's just "getting over it" and has a lot of value. We all know people who have kept grudges and vengeance alive for far too long. Perhaps we have done it ourselves.

But on another level, there's the question of justice. If someone has wronged you, is it always proper to just walk away, turning the other cheek? If someone punched you in the nose, wouldn't some sort of apology, penance, or reparation be in order before you REALLY forgave him?

You could just forget the incident, but that could also be because you don't want to confront the issue-- or him. If no justice is forthcoming for whatever reason, letting it pass is probably a good idea rather than stewing over it, but I'm not sure I would call that forgiveness. If there is the possibility of it happening again, how many times will you let it pass?

If, however, the offender offers genuine penance, or is otherwise made to pay, then we get to the idea of forgiveness being a mutual contract. The offender could ask to be forgiven, and make it known it will never happen again, or could spend a few years in prison without being penitent at all. Either way, forgiveness is then an act of compassion, and not simply letting it ride.

[chaska]

15. Is forgiveness even possible when the offender doesn't participate?

It's been over three years, and it still hurts. I don't see the situation changing. Until this person comes to me (won't happen) and apologizes, and asks for my forgiveness, it is always going to be painful to think of this person.

I wish I could forgive. It's just not possible. My last memory of this person is horribly negative. That will remain seared in my memory. Irreparable.

[Madrone]

16. YES!

It really is possible - but it's obviously up to you. You must decide if hanging onto the bitterness (that, by the way, in NO WAY affects the life or mental wellbeing of the person you're bitter at) is useful, beneficial, or desireable to you.

It's also helpful to come to the realization that the person you're angry with was obviously not the person you were meant to be with, but they entered your life for a reason. There's a lesson in there - and the lesson will not be one of bitterness. You might also realize that the woman in question did you a direct favor - as getting what you WANTED from the relationship may have ended up a catastrophe.

[Bertha Venation]

21. Absolutely. But you can't be forced to do it.

And no one should try to force you to do it, chaska.

I'm forty-one; the harm I forgave began when I was age two. I couldn't even begin to consider forgiveness until I was about thirty-three and had been in intense, gut-wrenching therapy for ten years.

Forgiveness is a process, and it takes a long time, not only to get to a place where one can consider it, but then to do it. I have to forgive my father consciously and several times a year, it seems. It's not a one-time thing for me. I get mad about this or that, and start to get angry, resentful, and it affects my life, and then I have to force myself to realize what's going on, and forgive him all over again.

Being hurt by someone you trust is the worst thing on earth. Healing happens and perhaps it can happen without forgiving. I wish you the best.

[arwalden]

17. I'm A Sanctimonious Grudge Holder

I'll only "forgive" when it suits my purpose. And even then... I might say the words "you're forgiven" and "all is well" but I'll never forget. I'll never put myself in a position of having to trust that person again. I'll never have forgotten about the insult, injustice, betrayal, broken promise, or the lie, or whatever it may be.

Although... I *would* be quick to sincerely forgive any transgression if the person was totally unaware of how their actions would impact others, or if it was due to something that was completely out of their hands, or accidental. --- It's the willful and wanton acts of betrayal and lies that I'll never forgive.

Not even on someone's death bed. Fuck em.

-- Allen

(That's how I feel right now. Maybe I'll feel different tomorrow.)

[Nikia]

22. I don't feel comfortable when there isn't forgiveness

I have a couple of unresolved situations that really bother me. There were a couple situations in college where I didn't exactly do the right thing but I feel hurt that they chose to never speak to me again even though I was sorry and I don't think what I did warented such a harsh response. It bothers me that I was never forgiven, but time has past and I will probably never encounter these people again and I usually do not think of it.
The more recent situation (starting about six months ago) of my best friend's wife still bothers me very much. The thing that really sucks is that I see her point of view and my friend says that she has regrets as well about her getting angry over our friendship, but she is afraid of seeing my husband or I ever again. I am not sorry that I am his friend. I am sorry that she got hurt though and that the letter that I wrote that her hurt her further. I am still angry though that she chose to be so angry at me even though she knew me and liked me and never wants to see me again. It is no longer always on my mind. I do think of it often though. It is hard not to. We see her husband often and he mentions her. We do things to help her out indirectly. We even go to their house sometimes when she isn't there and she is aware of it all. I have a hard time completely forgiving her given the situation and I don't feel forgiven by her either. Both things bother me.
Then there is my relationship with my mother. That is so complex because we aren't talking about just one or a couple of instances, but many things which hurt me to this day. It bothers me too though.
I want to forgive. It is important to me. It is not good for me to hate or be angry. I also want to be forgiven. I hold things against myself as it is. I need forgiveness to forgive myself.
My best friend does not think that it necessary to make formal declaration of forgiveness. He says that not mentioning the incident and living as though it didn't happen how one shows forgiveness. Saying one is sorry is necessary when someone gets hurt but not repeating the same mistake is more important.