How to discipline a stubborn six month old dog?

[Wcross]

I have three six month old dogs- Moe,Larry&Curly. Larry and Curly respond to the "rolled up news paper" threat- I don't even have to whack them with it, I can just hit a table and say no and they stop. Moe is not afraid of anything, I can whack him on the butt with the paper and he will turn around and grab the paper. He is the trouble maker of the three and will run off with anything that isn't nailed down. He also has a bad habit of pushing the limits with his parents and their growls and nips don't seem to slow him down at all.

Any suggestions on how to get him in line? Does he need Ritalin or something?

[mouse7]

1. Give them tax cuts to get them to do what you want.

Ooops. Sorry. I've seen too much cable TV news lately.

[unblock]

3. rofl!

[bread_and_roses]

2. Forget the newspaper

all you will do is increase aggression in a dog with this temperment...he is aiming for Alpha status. Take him to obedience class; you will learn how to establish dominance over him. He must accept you as leader or you will have constant trouble with him. Alpha dogs are not safe around other dogs or children (or even adults) unless they are firmly under the control of a human whom they accept as pack leader. Otherwise they think THEY have to protect the pack and are thus always hyper-alert, primed for aggression, and will use their own "judgement" of the danger of a situation rather than yours.

I know I am going on and on a bit, but truely, ask anyone who knows dogs, they will tell you the same thing. Good luck.

[bahrbearian]

4. Use small treats to reward him for good things

he does when asked of him, then move up to come here, then treat him for that. Next sit,treat, stay, treat. Keep going with it so he'll have is attention on you and getting rewarded. The problem is having so many dog's around, They'll all want treats and show off for them. Get him separate with one or both of the parents. and work them together.

[ScreamingMeemie]

5. Obedience training. You'll be glad that you did.

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. Stuttering problem.

:hi: Double post.

[NMDemDist2]

7. dogs have a "pack" mentality-

you need to stop him right away, what he is doing is trying to become the "Top Dog" and he will become more and more aggressive if not taught a lesson right away.

you must "take him down" and make it crystal clear he is NOT the "alpha male" of your pack. the next time he growls or grabs the newspaper you need to grab him by the scruff on both sides of his neck and fairly forcefully put him on his back and hold him down and stare him right in the eye until he looks away. You need to tell him in a VERY STRONG VOICE he is NOT the boss.

It may take a couple times over the next few months before he "concedes" you the Alpha spot.

I have a 6 year old male and we still need to "remind" him every couple years.

At no time do you hurt him or hit him, you just have to put him in the subservient position on his back (his belly exposed and vunerable) and get up close in his face (don't let him nip you) and stare him down til he "gives"

This is the number one issue that causes dogs to be left in shelters, and it is so easy to stop. You can probably find some more stuff on the web but this has worked for us with all our dogs thru the years.

on edit: obedience class is always good too!

[bearfan454]

8. I had to do that with a blue heeler I had.

I grabbed his collar, lais him down on his back, and pointed in his face until he looked away. He got it after that.

[NMDemDist2]

9. yes the "pointing finger" with a strong "THAT"S ENOUGH" works

perfectly!

[Wcross]

12. Thanks- I will try it.

He isn't a big dog (about the size of a beagle)and hasn't growled at me or his parents. I just want him to stop "testing" the limits. I am planning on having him fixed soon- maybe he will be easy to work with then.
These dogs will never be thrown away at a shelter, they are my buddies. I just need to work with him a little I guess.

[NMDemDist2]

14. we need to "remind" the big dog not because he confronts us

but to be cool with our older female. He is a border collie and thinks the old gal needs to be "herded" everywhere. We remind him to be gentle with her. He will start pushing his luck every once in a while.

The take down will work well, just have to be consistant with him.

Good luck!

[retread]

15. Please, please ignore the well-meaning advice that advocates

violent techniques. Among these I include the forced "alpha roll". There is a BIG difference between being alpha and being aggressive. For starters take a rewards based obedience class. Even if your dog only learns sit he will learn to look to you for direction and you will be surprised at the improvement in your relationship. I suggest "The Other End of the Leash", by Patricia McConnell, while not a how-to book it is filled with valuable insights about primate-canid interactions from someone who obviously feels great affection for dogs.

[NMDemDist2]

25. we are not violent with them

we love our babies, it is just like a child, I would never beat or be violent with a child, but I am firm and no nonsense

[retread]

34. They are NOT primate children. They are canids. What you

think you are saying and what they hear are not necessarily the same. One of my favorites and I know you've heard someone say this is: "He knew he had done wrong because he ran and hid the minute I got home". Actually he had no idea but from body language and tone and experience he knew he had better make himself scarce. For all he knew it could be the way he was wagging his tail.

[xchrom]

10. puppy training!

[Skittles]

11. you have three six month old dogs

are you insane? :o

[Wcross]

17. Yes I am.....

It was not my decision, it just happened. My neighbors house burned down and he couldn't take the dogs with him.(three adults- Buddy, Angel & PeeDee) He approached me and asked if I would take them. They had been born and raised in this area and are farm dogs- I would see them a mile from home at times running in the Fields and hunting. They are mutts and not "attractive", I knew if they went to the county "shelter" they would be put down within a few days. I also figured they would be miserable tied up to a tree in someones back yard if they were adopted.
After I agreed to take them he mentioned that Angel and PeeDee "might" be pregnant. Sure enough, two weeks later Angel had Larry and Curly. A week later PeeDee had Moe. The girls are fixed now and all dogs are healthy. What more could you ask for?

[Skittles]

19. you're not insane

you are wonderful :thumbsup:

[Wcross]

20. Now your making me blush :)

I would hope most people would do the same thing for an animal in need.

[Skittles]

21. my namesake Skittles

is a 26 solid black bundle of feline love. Found starving (7 pounds) with a severely dislocated leg (bone showing). Tom and I were just commenting yesterday what a high maintenance kitty he is - he is prone to ticks, ear mites, cat bites, etc. He sure has his share of vet visits. The first bill for him was 800 bucks (pin in leg, neutered). We don't care, we just love Skittles.

[Wcross]

24. Ah- Ticks!

My six are Tick Magnets! They run over a 500 acre area (that I know of) and seem to collect the ticks. I have them on frontline and they still drag the dang things in. Oh well, I don't care- love em all anyhow!

[Skittles]

47. there's four cats at the farm and only Skittles gets em

we figure because his gut is closer to the ground. :O

Anyways, I freak when I find one; Tombo uses the tweezers to pull them out properly. Gawd the idea of those blood suckers just KILL me. When I got one on me, well, Tombo nearly had to have me committed. GET IT OFF!!! I was screaming. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[bearfan454]

26. I always wondered how you got your DU name.

I thought it meant Skittles like the candy.

[DarkPhenyx]

13. Roll him on his back...

...hold him down and out your mouth near, or on his throat. Growl at him, if he struggles hold him a bit tighter. Continue till he stops. Welcome to the unruly stage of puppydom. He has already established dominance over the other two. Now he's fighting for your position in the pack. You need to remind him that you are still alpha.

[retread]

16. You are already alpha! You

control the resources. If you think you need to remind, a simple sit before feeding is a more gentle and CLEARER to the dog manner. Violence is rarely necessary, especially with a 6-month old puppy.
A forced alpha roll is an extremely aggressive, violent act to a dog. Why on earth would you want your pets to fear you?

[DarkPhenyx]

18. Watch how dogs talk to eachother.

Welcome to the pack order of things. It isn't fear. It's respect. It also isn't violent, it simply is.

[retread]

22. You are NOT a dog. Again, you control the resources. There

are many more kinder, gentler methods. This is a 6-month old puppy, not a full grown dog with a past. An alpha roll IS violence.

[DarkPhenyx]

31. And they are not people.

THey do not talk and understand.

An alpha is not a violent roll. It is actually quite benevolent. IT is, however, strong and dominant.

[retread]

35. Wrong. They DO communicate ! They do understand. Is it

understanding the way a human understands? I doubt it. They communicate through a sense of smell, through visual means like reading body language and through sounds.

[DarkPhenyx]

41. Did I say they don't communicate?

No. Didn't say it.

Are you sure you want to carry on a rational discussion or are you more interested in acting reactionary and putting words in my mouth. I can go either way mind you, but it would be nice to know which direction you wanted to stear this.

[retread]

45. No need to be belligerent.

*

[retread]

23. More on the alpha roll--

A quote from someone who says it better than I have!

"The only reason that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to kill the animal. By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are literally putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill them. It is not surprising that a lot of people get bit trying to do the alpha roll - the dog believes that the human is trying to kill them so they try and defend themselves. Doing this behavior to an already dominant animal can increase the likelihood of aggression. Doing this to an already submissive animal will increase the fear in that animal - leading to submissive urination and possible fear biting. Hands should never, ever be used to hurt an animal - an alpha roll does just that and its efficacy at asserting dominance is next to zero."

[NMDemDist2]

27. i agree that a stranger doing it is not good

but with in the established pack the dog knows you aren't going to "kill" him.

[retread]

29. And he "knows" this how??? Again, there is rarely if ever a

need for this action especially for a 6-month old puppy. There are many more gentle positive methods that strengthen the bond between you and your dog. One of my favorites is clicker training. The feeling you get when your formerly "hardheaded" dog finally gets it and follows you around the house proudly throwing sits every time you glance his way is indescribable! It's a TWO way communication.
You are from the supposedly more rational, intelligent species. Why would you resort to a crude, violent method that damages rather than strengthens the bond between the two species?

[DarkPhenyx]

32. And they would be wrong.

Sad but true.

[mvd]

28. I suggest obedience training

Until then, try cuddling the dog after mistakes - dogs are always after love.

[retread]

30. Exactly! My dogs' mistakes are my failures not theirs'

*

[Madrone]

33. My "moe" is now a little over a year old -

He was a cocky little sob, no fear, fighting me for dominance, stubborn, and defiant. Now, he's big, a total sweetheart, and tries very hard to do everything I want him to do. In fact, I have to laugh all the time at how when he weighed 5-6 pounds and I tried to cuddle him on my lap he'd be wiggling, snapping, and snarling trying to get down, and now he's 80 pounds and I can't keep him out of my lap. :)

I believe some better behavior will come in time. Sounds like Moe (just like my Bodhi) thinks HE'S king of the world, so your discipline is meaningless to him. He's still fighting for his place in the pack. That doesn't mean, however, that you should not discipline him. To the contrary. You need to remain consistant. You're going to have a hell of a time, because you have a LOT of dogs and can't just work with the one. Some things that help reinforce the "dominant" theme for you are: - make him sit, then wait before running out the door. NEVER let him enter the house, leave the house, or enter any room in the house ahead of you. Force him behind you, then enter. Feed him AFTER you eat. If you have a crate, make use of it! Tell him "NO" , if he does it again, put him in the crate for 5-10 minutes and ignore him completely.

My dog has for a long time allowed me to give him choices. When he was little and I was trying to housebreak him I wouldn't let him off my bed at night. If he got off the bed, he got put in the crate for the night. As a result, he housebroke for the entire night much, much earlier than he housebroke during the day. Now I can tell my dog "no bark! or crate!" , "bed! or crate!" , "leave it!, or crate!" etc - and he will usually take the first choice.

Another thing I used to do when he was little and behaving badly is scruff him, and shake him a little bit. NOT lift him off the ground and shake him, but wiggle him back and forth a bit. While saying NO, of course. I have performed the "alpha roll" on him a few times, and frankly, I just don't see what the big deal is. Maybe I do it differently than other people or something, but it was never a terrorizing thing when I've done it. The thing with the alpha roll though is that that's a "serious bidness" message you are sending to the dog, so you don't want to overuse it, or it will lose it's effect. In my house, that is reserved for growling, snapping, or aggresiveness at me, at another person I say is OK, at another dog .

The only time my dog has been spanked (and by spanked I mean a sharp smack to the hindquarters, not beaten) is for eating out of the catbox. He doesn't do it anymore. Like a kid, if you keep wailing on the dog it will become desensitized to it. A coworker of mine has my dog's brother, and they've hit him a lot in trying to train him. As a result, he is much more aggressive than my dog, although when they were puppies the opposite was true.

I don't know if jumping is a problem in your pack, but if it is, let me know because my uncle has been training dogs since before I was even thought of and he told me at christmas how to stop that immediately. It worked GREAT. I won't go into it unless that info is needed, however.

Check out the Monks of Skete books on dog training also, if you're interested. They are awesome.

[Wcross]

36. Jumping up is a MAJOR problem with all six

"I don't know if jumping is a problem in your pack, but if it is, let me know because my uncle has been training dogs since before I was even thought of and he told me at christmas how to stop that immediately. It worked GREAT. I won't go into it unless that info is needed, however."

Please tell me!!!! When I come home at night they all (six) run up to the gate to greet me- and have to jump up to say Hi! It doesn't bother me too much except when it has been raining, the Mud on my pants isn't good.

[Madrone]

38. Okay -

Like I said, my uncle has been training dogs since before I was thought of (and I'm 31). Mostly he trains hunting dogs, and he is GOOD, damned good. I ended up calling my grandmother's on xmas, and he answered the phone - we talked for 2 hours, about dogs :) I happened to tell him that I was currently working on the jumping up thing with my dog - and that he had made improvement, but still had a long way to go. This was his guaranteed, surefire way to stop it, and it worked for me. I had to do it twice, one right after the other, and my dog doesn't jump on ANYONE anymore.

As people have mentioned in this thread - dogs HATE being on their back (unless, of course, they sleep on their backs by their own volition, as mine does). It's their most vulnerable position. My uncle's method incorporates the dog's desire to play with you, and reverse psychology.

With your crew, it would probably be best to work one dog at a time, away from the other dogs.

Start by patting your chest, enticing the dog to jump up on you. While patting your chest keep telling the dog "what a good dog, good boy, you're such a good boy, etc). Do not EVER show any displeasure or tell the dog NO during this entire process. At ALL times the dog is a GOOD dog, you are happy and playing, and are in no way upset with the dog's behavior. Keep the "good dog's" coming from start to finish.

Once the dog has jumped up on you you grasp the dog by it's paws and lightly flip it backwards onto it's back. With my dog (who weighed 70+ pounds by the time I attempted this) it was easier said than done - we both ended up falling down :). Don't throw the dog down, or hurt him in any way - you are just trying to put him down backwards onto his back, not kill him or scare him into cardiac arrest.

Once this is done, do it again. Often, the dog will NOT jump up again - but in my case, I had to do it twice. Bodhi was too funny when I did it to him - he got up and was doing the pounce and bark thing at me - because I wasn't angry he knew it was a "game" and wanted to play, but wasn't so sure about the being flipped over thing. He gave in and jumped again to the same result. He's never jumped on me or anyone else since. He'll jump up in front of me, but won't put his paws on me.

Anyway - my uncle explained it like this - 1. you must remain happy and playful and never say NO during this process for 2 reasons I'll get to #2 in the second part), the first being when the dog encounters someone new and that person is happily trying to get the dog to jump up you want him to remember jumping = getting flipped on his back. If you say NO and do it the dog may think well, mom/dad didn't like being jumped on, but THIS person doesn't so it must be okay. 2. reverse psychology - because the dog is never in trouble, and you are happy and playing a game with him the dog makes his own decision to not jump. He decides "this is a game, and it's supposed to be fun, but I don't LIKE this game, so I'm not playing it anymore!" Simple as that.

I'd been trying for MONTHS to get Bodhi not to jump - it seems like I was always saying "OFF OFF OFF OFF" - and because I have an elderly neighbor lady we like to visit this was a real problem. He jumped up on her once and her skin is so thin and fragile his claws broke her skin and left her bleeding. Now I can take him over there without worry - he will NOT jump, and no amount of cajoling will get him to.

[retread]

37. There are many methods of training dogs that achieve results.

The question is: Would you rather use a gentle rewards based method such as clicker training or a more forceful punishment based method which works and probably achieves results quicker? One would deepen your relationship with your dog and the other would keep it shallow.
You suggest the Monks of Skete book I have read it and suggest you try "Bones Would Rain from the Sky". or "The Other End of the Leash" for a bit different perspective.

[Madrone]

39. You misunderstand me, I think.

I am totally against animal cruelty of any kind.

My dog was a cocky, aggressive puppy that has grown into a true delight. AND - he's a delight because he WANTS to please me, not because he is scared of me. This dog has never had a traumatic experience, he's happy, well adjusted, loving, and well behaved. Every single time I take him somewhere someone comments on what a happy dog he is.

When he was little, he was very domineering and aggressive. I was told that he was constantly tormenting his littermates and horribly aggressive with them as well. I had more than a few times where I gently corrected him and he'd snarl, snap, and lunge for my face. That is NOT acceptable, and that was the line he'd have to cross before getting rolled on his back and gently restrained while I looked him in the eye. If a gentle correction leads to a defiant puppy trying to rip your face off, you've got to take it up a level. I never rolled him for simple misbehavior, only for that aggressiveness towards me, another person, or another animal. And I didn't do it often, I'd say it's probably happened 5 times or less - well, more if you count us play wrassling and I take him down for the count :) If he had been a more submissive, less aggressive dog he'd never have been rolled. And he's never rolled now - except for the play wrassling thing I mentioned earlier - and he loves.

Contrast my dog, with his less agressive (as puppies) brother. His owners think a swat and screaming every time the dog misbehaves is the way to correct him. They also got him one of those horrible shock collars. When they are at work all day, the dog is tied outside on a chain. (mine's crated) Their dog has gone from being less aggressive than mine, to far more aggressive. Example - if their dog was in the car or the back of their truck and you stuck a finger in there he'd rip it off - mine would lick you and let you pet him. If someone or another animal came up and took a bone away from their dog, he'd rip their hand off, mine would let it be taken. I had to do what I had to do to show my dog his place and teach him that aggressive behavior was not tolerated. As a result he is a true delight and has a better life because he can be taken anywhere without worry about his behavior. He's a true sweetie, and aggression is no longer even an issue.

[retread]

46. "You misunderstand me, I think" Yes I did, sorry!

*

[welshTerrier2]

40. Training not Discipline

many of the above posts hit the nail right on the head ... you can yell and yell and smack newspapers and on and on, but the problem is NOT what your dog is doing, it's that your dog is not responding to you.

obedience training is the only path ... also, it's more difficult to train your dog and establish yourself as the alpha dog with other dogs in the house ... the point isn't to get rid of the other dogs ... just understand that dogs living with other dogs are often more socialized to dogs than to people ... be patient with training ...

while training probably could have started at 3 months, 6 months is still a perfect age for training ... make sure you get a good trainer in a good training class ... it probably wouldn't hurt to research good training books either ... if you want an easier time with your canine family, you're going to have to work at it ...

until the training class starts, start training with simple sit and stay commands ... repeat these frequently throughout the day ... give mini-rewards for success ... be stubborn about training ... dogs, like kids, will test you to see if they can get away with imposing their will ... don't let them ...

get going on this immediately !! it's well worth the effort to help you build a better lifetime relationship with your dogs ...

[Wcross]

42. A picture of Moe

[smirkymonkey]

44. What a sweet little pup!

Just seeing that sweet little face made my day! :loveya:

[Wcross]

43. Moe and his brothers Curly & Larry

Thanks for all the kind advice!