International Minimum Wage - An Idea Whose Time Has Come...

[Junkdrawer]

One of the Democratic Presidential candidates (who shall remain nameless in this forum ;) ) has moved this idea to the mainstream. I believe it is one of the best ideas I've heard in a while. I think that whoever the Democratic candidate is, this should be a plank in our platform. Here's a summary from another website:

Any product imported into the United States of America would have to be certified to be produced by workers paid a minimum of the International Minimum Wage. All parts and materials that go into the product must also be produced by such workers.

Results:

An improvement in the working conditions and pay of most of the world's workers, resulting in improvements in the world's economy, and in particular the economies of "third world" nations.

The end of job flight out of the USA to low-wage countries.

Improvements in the American economy due to the elimination of economic inefficiencies and distortions caused by artificially low non-US wages and import prices.

Now, don't think this won't cause a huge fight with Republicans. I personally think that the current fight to control the world's oil is so that "American" foreign business interests are never nationalized in the countries (such as China) where the below minimum wages are paid. Here's a recent editorial from the Washington Times:

These are but several of numerous examples of calls for minimum wages cited in my 1989 book, "South Africa's War Against Capitalism." You can bet the farm these calls for minimum wages for blacks didn't represent white compassion for the welfare of blacks. Minimum wages are simply one of the most effective tools in the arsenals of racists everywhere.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20031114-081940-9148r.htm

So an International Minimum Wage is racism. Imagine that!

Well, several on this forum have questioned the calls for protectionism as "Anti-Liberal" - not concerned with the plight of workers in foreign lands. Here's a way we can stop the flight of American jobs and raise living standards around the world. Now that's an idea whose time has come.

[PVnRT]

1. I'll agree that the countries that we trade with

need to have better labor (and environmental) standards, but I'm not so sure a one-sixe-fits-all international minimum wage is the best way to go. I would prefer to have some NGO (like the U.N., certainly not the pigdogs at the World Bank or IMF) determine what the minimum living wage for each country "should" be, and go from there.

[Junkdrawer]

2. I think that this idea will get considerable debate in the coming years..

and I'm sure that many ideas will be vetted. However, one way or another, the flight of American jobs to nations where child/coerced labor is used has got to be stopped.

[yagotme]

38. I agree, JD,

the companies that export their business to these (I'll call them 4th world) countries should be boycotted, as much as possible. Using child labor, in this day and age, with our technology and enlightenment, is a horrendous thought.
If their goods aren't being sold, then their "labor savings" will have no effect. Ah, to dream.........

[Junkdrawer]

52. Tariffs to bring the cost of their goods up to a point...

where slave.child labor has no competitive advantage should do the trick.

[Junkdrawer]

3. Kick

:kick:

[dae]

4. Sounds like a great idea and should definitely be up for discussion.

[Junkdrawer]

5. I think so.

:kick:

[Junkdrawer]

6. Another Kick

:kick:

[doc03]

7. Bush would go for that

If we could base the minimum on China!

[Junkdrawer]

8. In today's world, sooner or later we all will live at the lowest standard.

we allow.

[BeFree]

9. Now that's Progresso!

Seriously, what a great and humanly progressive idea that is good for everyone. Everyone that is but the most selfish and greedy.

I hope I live to see the day...

[Junkdrawer]

10. I think the export of computer jobs is making a lot of people wake up...

Nothing like a pink slip to get your attention.

[LincolnMcGrath]

11. I`m sure one of DUs ProNaftaProFreeTrade AntiLabor types

Will soon post and tell you why it wont work. :crazy: No doubt they think they are part of they top 5%. They will change their tune when the job they rely on goes bye bye.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

27. yes, those types like to post Republican propaganda

Remember, big business fought EVERY labor advance - minimum wage, safety laws, unemployment insurance, banning child labor, WEEKENDS ... they screamed and threatened that business would be destroyed every time.

And every advance made the world a little bit better. So will an International Living Wage.

The naysayers should just be ignored, history is on our side.

[Cleita]

12. Do you think this is why the PNAC and their sock puppet

Bush are trying to destroy the UN. It would take a body of the nations of the world like the UN to make this effective.

[Junkdrawer]

14. I think PNAC is a think-tank/mouthpiece for a bunch of neocons..

who work for big multinational money. Currently, their main worry is that some of the countries (notably China) where they have huge investments will overtake the West and may well nationalize the investments. Oil, and specifically the control of oil, is the way Big Money seeks to protect their investments.

As for the UN, I'm absolutely certain that these forces would LOVE to do away with it at the earliest opportunity. However, just about every other nation on earth would respectfully disagree and it wouldn't look too good if the US was the only nation of any size NOT in the UN, would it?

[Yupster]

13. I'm not sure I get it

I'm a grocery shop owner in Dar Es Salaam, Mozambique.

I make about $ 7 a day from my business and pay my two employees about $ 3 a day.

So would the international minimum wage mean to me? Who understands how this would work?

[Junkdrawer]

15. No, it's only if you want to SELL to the USA. Then you would have...

to show that you pay your workers an agreed upon minimum wage or face tariffs.

[0007]

24. Like one world government is beyond the mind of a Republican

Even if it means perpetual peace.

We don't have slaves anymore here in the U.S. because we're too moral of a Christian nation. But we don't mind exploiting other countries and their labor markets even if they are Christians.

Like our next space project should be a world effort.

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. One world government

Yeah, I used to drink that Kool Aid. I don't any more. Mankind has too many diverse religious, political, social, societal, sexual and who knows what other interests to be ready for a one-world government anytime soon.

Why should the space project be a world effort?

[Junkdrawer]

26. Just to be clear, the IMW doesn't rely on "one world government", but...

international cooperation in the enforcement would be helpful.

[Junkdrawer]

16. Here's more details..

How It Works:

The IMW would be different for each country based on development level and ability to support that standard of living. Clearly, the level of the minimum wage in Pakistan would be different than that in Spain. The goal is to promote the growth of the middle class, rising wages and living standards, not to undermine them by making nations uncompetitive. The IMW represents a floor below which companies will not be able to operate.

Negotiations for the IMW will take place at the World Trade Organization in close consultation with the United Nations International Labor Organization (ILO). The WTO is the appropriate venue for negotiations because adoption of the IMW is a trade issue and will have enormous impact on member nations. Additionally, the WTO has enforcement leverage that the ILO does not and it is vital that the IMW be enforced.

In conjunction with negotiations at the WTO, the various international financial institutions (IFIs - World Bank, International Monetary Fund and other organizations), will be integrated in the process of developing the necessary infrastructure to support the IMW. For example, a nation must increase the education level of its workforce to support an increasing standard of living. Accordingly, support for enhancing a nation's education system must go hand-in-hand with the maintenance and gradual increase in that nation's IMW. Other "infrastructure" needs such as health care, must also be part of an overall development approach. The United States, one of the largest contributors to the IFIs should use its voice, vote and substantial leverage to promote the development of, agreement to, and implementation of the IMW.

The benefits of further trade liberalization should be tied to the development of the IMW and its enforcement. The promise of trade is to raise standards of living - that means not only the quality of life, but helping to create consumers who will purchase the products of all nations. Right now, the United States is left holding the short straw - our trade expansion efforts have disproportionately aided our competitors at the cost of jobs and our standard of living.


http://www.dickgephardt2004.com/plugin/template/gephardt/41/2728

[Z-axis]

17. The Devil in the Details

The problem is identified:

1. The exploitation of foreign workers;
2. The use of cheap outsourced labor for controlling wages at home;
3. The avoidence of collective bargaining, health & safety, uses of children and prisoners and other basic rights established by American labor;
4. The general encouragement of multinational projects to demonstrate little loyalty and general disregard for the health of their home country economies.
5. It isn't simply the outsourcing of minimum wage jobs that threatens the American economy and standard of living, its professional and semi-professional jobs, even management jobs that will eventually take the biggest bite. Multinationals are quickly learning that national origin plays no part in limiting the competence of international workers,if properly trained.
6. A myriad of loopholes will also have to be dealt with, such as outsourcing contracts rather than labor, per se. etc.

But the solution (Int'l mininum wage) leaves a lot of problems. What is this minimum? Is it in terms of the standards of the home country or the host? If its an international standard, what kind of life is say an offshored pipe-fitter supposed to have? The kind they now have in the U.S. in Shri-Lanka? in Tierra del Fuego? Is it to be adjusted to some mythical average? How does that prevent countries with standards above that 'minimum' for that job from shipping those jobs overseas? Is it to be at the standard of the host country? How does it affect the host country to have McDonald's workers getting a minimum wage that is equal or greater than what a local engineer or physician get?

Clearly, multinationals have to be reigned in. If they enjoy certain privileges and stabilities and other benefits of being home-based in this country then they clearly owe this country certain allegiences and benefits in kind. It is certainly time we say to multinationals - America, love it or leave it.

I think I would favor some kind of arrangement where we required of our multinationals that they pay an overseas worker something comperable to a standard of living in the host country that they would enjoy if they lived here -- a 'middle class job' taken overseas would pay the worker in the host country whatever the hosts 'middle-class' wage seems to be. In addition, the difference between what it costs to pay a worker here and pay a worker there would be paid as a tax by the multinational to our govt. (perhaps a dedicated tax to the Soc. Sec. fund or some other labor-associated benefit). At this point, I don't see the squabbles bound to occur in the international community to be worth the effort of solving it at that level.


z-axis

[Junkdrawer]

19. A thoughtful post. And while you were posting it, I linked to the...

candidate who has also given the matter considerable thought.

As I've been saying, what I'd like to see is the beginning of a dialog - a dialog where tariffs are based not on protecting this industry or that, but on insuring that competition is fair and that foreign workers are not exploited. After all, we're all waking up to the fact that if foreign workers are exploited, WE suffer too.

[Yupster]

20. First problem I could think of would be

shell companies. Where companies pay less, but make their sales through a giant company which pays more and shaves a bit off the top before exporting it to America,

It would also hurt countries who produce through low productivity but lots of labor. For example, one company may use 10 workers making $ 1 a day to make a crate of coffee. Another country makes the same crate with one worker making $9 per day because of higher technology. Force the less productive business to raise its wages, and it becomes uncompetitive and the 10 workers lose their jobs.

[Junkdrawer]

23. I agree there will be enforcement problems....

The proposed legislation addresses "parts suppliers" which are like the shell companies you suggest. My gut tells me that if an American president were to lead in this area, much of the developed world (which is feeling the same effects of losing its highest paying jobs) will join us and help enforce the laws.

As for Agribusiness displacing cheap labor, I think that is an inevitable trend anyway, but the rules could be elastic enough to try to minimize the damages.

[w4rma]

18. Just use the U.S. minimum wage. International one could be set at $.40/hr

Any product imported into the United States of America would have to be certified to be produced by workers paid a minimum of the U.S. Minimum Wage. All parts and materials that go into the product must also be produced by such workers.

That said, an international one is better than the current situation.

[banana republican]

21. This has to happen

if not by agreement then by economics.....

[Junkdrawer]

28. I don't think economics will do it. Economics is forcing our wages...

down to the level of third world nations. If we don't act, we'll have to hope that indigenous labor movements abroad spring up. And if you think our history is full of brutal repression of labor leaders...

[BackDoorMan]

22. Here, here...

Absolutely! Minimum Wage is something Clinton won on, and both the fascist republicans (who will always ignore this) AND are the dems and are being so stupid about, the people, are huting so very badly...

It's right and fair.

UNIONS NOW!!!!

[Mikimouse]

29. If I may add to your argument...

I have long argued that one avenue to use in leveling the field, so to speak, is to mandate the following: Any corporation, operating under the auspices of the flag of the US (see Saipan for an example), will be subject to US ferderally mandated minimu wage standards, nothing less.

The clothing manufacturers (like GAO, Calvin Kelin, Jordache, and others) offer Chinese workers 'jobs in America', and these workers, mostly female, pay huge sums of money to allow them to get these jobs. Unfortunately, the jobs are in places like Saipan, which flies the US flag, but where the wages are not even enough for them to be able to begin to pay back the fees that they had to borrow. They live in dormitories with essentially non-existent sanitation, are forced to get abortions if they become pregnant, and work in completely unsafe conditions (see Triangle Shirt Company fire, early 20th century).

Our illustrious House Leader has been documented twice, visiting Saipan, to commend the factory owners for illustrating the highest 'Republican standards' (I have a 20/20 film of this that I make my students watch). Of course, Bugman stays at the Hyatt Regency on the other side of the island, far away from the sweatshops.

[Junkdrawer]

30. Agreed. We HAVE to change our thinking. If you allow conditions...

like that to exist in Saipan, that's what we'll see in 10-20 yrs. in NYC and Miami. Maybe sooner.

[Mikimouse]

32. What I find particularly disturbing is this...

my students recognize that there is a major problem with the system, but argue vehemently that a change in the system would result in their not being able to buy 'stuff' cheaply. Thus, they are willing to let the establishment operate as it does, without a change, just so they can continue to buy, buy, buy. I am saddened by it all. At times, I go so far as to hope, fervently, that those who give no heed to the plight of others will eventually end up in the same type of situation. Pain is a great motivator.

[LincolnMcGrath]

33. Do not let your students ASSUME prices would go up.

A teeshirt company proved they could compete here in the US. Heard it on the Tom Hartmann show, don't remember the company. We have to stop the corporate spin before it starts. Many jobs have been shipped to countries where labor cost differences are nil. They cost difference is in the subsidies.

American steel mills competed with foreign companies who get free power, free scrap, and free raw materials. Scrap in America ranges from $100-180$ per ton. The steel mill I worked in spent 5 million per month on electricity alone. Our labor costs per ton were under 5 CENTS PER TON. More efficient than any mill ANYWHERE. Challenge your class to prove that foreign products are cheaper.

[Mikimouse]

36. I have done so; They have a writing assignment on exactly that topic

just to demonstrate to them the falacy of the corporate diatribe. They all, however, seem to think that they are going to be CEOs in the near future and don't want to consider anything that would prevent them from cashing in on the fat bonuses. Some of them get it, most don't.

[Junkdrawer]

37. "some think they are going to be CEOs in the near future"...

Why does this remind me of ghetto kids thinking they're going to play in the NBA....

[Mikimouse]

39. Same thing...they drool over the prospect of being CEOs

without having any knowledge of the system. I have taught special classes of scholarship athletes (my university does this, not my idea, and I taught the classes as I would any other, no special breaks for anyone), and have found exactly what you mentioned. I try to pound into them that if they pin their hopes on getting into the NBA or the NFL, and neglect their studies, they will have nothing at the end of their eligibility, but a hardy 'See YA!' from the university.It also helps to point out that some of the most successful people in professional sports used their resources to earn degress in later life (Kenny Anderson, Gary Cuozzo, Julius Erving, and others). The major problem with the wannabe CEOs is that they never see themselves working the types of jobs that might get them to that point. They only see themselves working at 'proletarian' jobs while they are in school, paying their tuition. NO thought of the realities of the future. You can find out where they are coming from by looking at how they rate their professors these days. I started a thread in the lounge yesterday about exactly that.

[Junkdrawer]

40. My wife taught the football players at Pitt and Oklahoma...

Same thing. It getting interesting at work. I'm a senior analyst, so it's pretty hard to ship my job overseas. But I'm watching the "kids" (20+ and 30+) around me and suddenly they're either interested in what it takes to become an analyst (try 10 years in the field and 10 years running you own consulting business), or they're wondering what it will take to keep the jobs in the USA. I think the days of Alex on Family Ties is (thankfully) coming to an end.

[alwynsw]

31. It's a laudable goal, but impractical

I don't believe Du has the server space or bandwidth to post every reason why this is impractical. I certainly am not willing to devote days to enumerating them. A solid class in international economics along with some world geography would be a good place to start. One small example:

"X" makes shoes for export to (American) XYZ Corp. He get the IMW of (let's say) $6 ph. His brother works for a local furniture shop that makes nothing for export. He makes the local mimimum of $0.20 ph. His other brother works for a company that makes 30% of their products for export and 70% for domestic consumption. He get's paid the IMW for 30% of his work and local wage foir the remainder. (Before you dismiss the 30/70 split, stop and think of what business do concerning wages, etc. It WILL happen.) Now think of the socioeconomic upheaval that will cause in (mostly) third world countries.

You want to see the crime rate go through the roof? That'll do it. You want to see economic class separation writ large? That'll do it.

I'm in favor of the idea of international minimums. It will have to be a long and gradual change to work - a generation at the minimum IMO.

[Junkdrawer]

35. I think if DU has the server space for endless infighting, it has..

the server space for an informed debate on policy proposals. And As you may or may not know, this one is one of the MAIN proposals of one of the major Democratic candidates.

As for paying decent wages to one worker and not another "forcing crime through the roof", I think Flint, MI was better off when union jobs were there than when they left.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

50. that's the most clever anti-worker excuse yet

So you are saying if X gets paid so much more, it will cause crime because Y will be jealous? You are saying that an unequal distribution of wealth will cause social unrest, therefore we can't pay people a living wage. However, the current massive inequality is just fine? Eh, I'm ready for some social unrest personally.

This part though is typical of anti-worker diatribes:

"I don't believe Du has the server space or bandwidth to post every reason why this is impractical. I certainly am not willing to devote days to enumerating them. A solid class in international economics along with some world geography would be a good place to start. "

Yeah, that's what they said about weekends too.

[FreakinDJ]

34. It did bother me a lot

That my hero Clinton did not attach human rights measures and working conditions to the treaties we entered into such as NAFTA

[Junkdrawer]

41. Kick

:kick:

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

42. Well,

I think the idea of the minimum wage being racist is morally perverse, and such nonsense deserves no harbor.

As far as the International Minimum Wage, this seems problematic in that you're trying to foist a global economic mandate on local businesses. These one-size fits all plans reek of Big Brother-ism to me.

[Junkdrawer]

43. Is the minimum wage in this country "Big Brother-ism" ?

:shrug:

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

48. No, not in America it's not..

The U.S government sets the minimum wage that U.S businesses must set for U.S workers. I'm not against the concept of an Internation Wage, but how's it supposed to work?

[Junkdrawer]

49. Details Here:

How It Works:

The IMW would be different for each country based on development level and ability to support that standard of living. Clearly, the level of the minimum wage in Pakistan would be different than that in Spain. The goal is to promote the growth of the middle class, rising wages and living standards, not to undermine them by making nations uncompetitive. The IMW represents a floor below which companies will not be able to operate.

Negotiations for the IMW will take place at the World Trade Organization in close consultation with the United Nations International Labor Organization (ILO). The WTO is the appropriate venue for negotiations because adoption of the IMW is a trade issue and will have enormous impact on member nations. Additionally, the WTO has enforcement leverage that the ILO does not and it is vital that the IMW be enforced.

In conjunction with negotiations at the WTO, the various international financial institutions (IFIs - World Bank, International Monetary Fund and other organizations), will be integrated in the process of developing the necessary infrastructure to support the IMW. For example, a nation must increase the education level of its workforce to support an increasing standard of living. Accordingly, support for enhancing a nation's education system must go hand-in-hand with the maintenance and gradual increase in that nation's IMW. Other "infrastructure" needs such as health care, must also be part of an overall development approach. The United States, one of the largest contributors to the IFIs should use its voice, vote and substantial leverage to promote the development of, agreement to, and implementation of the IMW.

The benefits of further trade liberalization should be tied to the development of the IMW and its enforcement. The promise of trade is to raise standards of living - that means not only the quality of life, but helping to create consumers who will purchase the products of all nations. Right now, the United States is left holding the short straw - our trade expansion efforts have disproportionately aided our competitors at the cost of jobs and our standard of living.


http://www.dickgephardt2004.com/plugin/template/gephardt/41/2728

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

55. Sounds Interesting..

Now that I think about it, it's really no more Big Brotherish than NAFTA. I think they might work, although I don't think the Repubs are going to go for it, not that that should surprise anyone.

[Mikimouse]

44. I would argue that, far from being

'big brotherism', it is the antidote for rampant Social Darwinism.:evilfrown:

[Old Lefty]

45. Where in our Constitution does it say that we have to

worry about the working conditions of the rest of the world? It's bad enough we are the worlds police department, now we have to be the worlds labor department too?

[Junkdrawer]

46. Slave labor goods are OK with you then, or...

as long as the price is right, it's "none of my business"? Doesn't sound very "lefty" to me.

[Mikimouse]

47. Where to begin...

First of all, no one asked us to be the world's police department, we only did it to protect our economic interests, no other reason. Secondly, we created the dependency of other nations, through the exploitation of their workers, for whom we have absolutely no regard. How would you feel if it was the other way around, and you, or someone in your family was working for slave wages? If we are going to use overseas factories, then it is our moral responsibility to protect those workers' rights, just as we protect our own (however weak that might be right now, but it will change in '04).

[LeahMira]

51. Must it be in the Constitution?

Where in our Constitution does it say that we have to...
worry about the working conditions of the rest of the world? It's bad enough we are the worlds police department, now we have to be the worlds labor department too?

There are a lot of things that are not in the Constitution but that most people would consider moral behaviors. IMO, it would suffice if the U.S. set an example. As it is, we have corporations moving to foreign nations because the labor is cheap. That may be cost effective and it generates higher profits for the corporations that do it, but the morality of doing it is certainly open to question. We definitely don't have the right to be the "world's police department." or its "labor department" either, but we can manage our own behavior.

BTW, I believe you are using the Constitution for purposes for which it was never intended.

[durutti]

53. Wait, wait, wait...

I think you misunderstand. No one is suggesting that we impose standards on other nations, but that all nations reach an agreement for an international minimum wage.

[durutti]

54. Why Americans should support this idea...

Progressives should campaign not only for an international minimum wage, but also an international social safety net, international labor standards, etc.

Progressive reforms can be maintained in this country only if these reforms are globalized. Otherwise, firms will eventually invest in countries with lower labor standards. That's why Scandinavian social democracy was incredibly successful, yet eventually dismantled.