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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:50 PM
Original message
How can we attack the RR without alienating other evangelicals?
First, do any DUers disagree that the following allegedly Christian people and organizations pose a threat to Democratic values? In addition to shilling for Republican candidates they also espouse anti-gay, anti-women's-rights, anti-social-spending views:

Pat Robertson
Jerry Falwell
Ralph Reed
http://www.afa.net/">American Family Association

I don't see a whole lot we can do on the abortion issue. Most Democratic politicians are pro-choice, and it's pretty much a requirement to get the Democratic nomination for president. But, AFAIK, no pro-life Democratic politician (we have a few here in MN) has been pressured to leave the party just for being pro-life - and this is a marked difference from how the Republican national party treats pro-choice Republicans.

But other than abortion, all we are really countering is lies and propaganda from people who use evangelical Christianity as a front to push their political views. There seems to be a perception among evangelical Christians that Democrats are hostile to Christianity, but I don't see anything in the Democratic platform or core values (again, excepting abortion) to bear that out. The perception comes from people like Jerry Falwell on down to radio hosts most of us have never heard of railing on the ACLU for "taking prayer out of schools" (which isn't even true) and making slanders against atheists, pagans, Muslims, and others.

At least, that's all I can see. Maybe there are other parts of the Democratic message that seem hostile to evangelicals: support for gay rights? Support for sex-education in schools? Affirmative action? Can someone enlighten me as to what seems so threatening about the Democratic party?

I guess my question is mostly for evangelical Christian DUers: how can we Democrats counter this perception?
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the_boxer_ Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm not sure how to answer your last question...
...but I've heard of a few "Christian Organizations" that support the Democratic party and support progessive/leftist ideals. People like Pat Roberston et al are nothing but Nazis disguised as evangelicals.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well
you might try some of the sites listed on my website for talking points ideas.

Also try http://www.jesusnorepublican.org/
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the_boxer_ Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Wow!
"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in essence, is fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling power." ( F.D.R.)

From: http://www.jesusnorepublican.org/

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the_boxer_ Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Upon thinking about your questions..
I guess my question is mostly for evangelical Christian DUers: how can we Democrats counter this perception?

There's nothing that we should do, imo, about "countering" any belief that the Democratic party is threatening to Christian values. Individuals of any religion who think will be able to realize that Democrats/Leftists/Liberals espouse more of what religion is all about than Republicans/Rightists/Conservatives because the latter mostly preaches intolerance and hate for those that aren't like them. This is totally contrary to most religious teachings that stress tolerance and "love thy neighbor."

You will never get this message across to Pat, Jerry, and their followers because they are of the mindset that if you are not like them, then you are not worthy of G-d's attention.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Find the quotes in the New Testament that support the
principles we believe in. Mark comes to mind, parable of Good Samaritan, etc. Become familiar with them and quote them.

"As a Christian, I try to follow ..."

It's a less direct way of getting them to consider Jesus' teachings than coming out and telling them they're being lied to.
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MysticMind Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. we need to show how the Democratic party...
Promotes things they hold dear such as family and community. For instance Bush's record on unemployment hurts families. We need to show that affordable insurance, employment, and a strong economy promotes family values.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think there are two kinds of Christians
There are Christians who live their lives in fear (fear of homosexuals, fear of getting their religion taken away, fear of anyone 'different', etc) and the Republicans' platform seems to be the best for them.

The other type of Christians are really good people. They think of WWJD (what would Jesus do) and they know that Jesus would not support wars for money, Jesus would want to help the poor and disadvantaged, Jesus would want to keep the environment healthy, Jesus would want all children to be able to see doctors regardless of their income. And this is the Democratic platform.
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the_boxer_ Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Excellent post Killarney!
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. yes, but
My RW fearful in-laws practice WWJD too. Just in a smaller capacity wherever their fear allows. They are, however frightened and misdirected, really good people. Misled, yes, but at heart good people.

And for the record the Green and Socialist platforms are also very appealing to the second group of Christians.
;D
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the_boxer_ Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here's another from that same site...
When there were barely a handful of people in the world, the very first book of the Bible, Genesis { 4:9 } was already teaching the necessity of being concerned about the well-being of others. An emphatic "No" is the way Cain (and many conservative Christians today) would like to answer the rhetorical question "Am I my brother's keeper?" But from beginning to end, the answer the Bible keeps giving to that question is: "If you want God's approval, you must indeed be your brother's, and your sister's, and even your neighbor's keeper !

http://www.jesusnorepublican.org/
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mst3k Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Not sure how much this applies, but...
A couple weeks ago, I stumbled across a great site: The Center for Progressive Christianity.

They're opposed to the repressive form of Christianity that so many conservatives preach. I find the site to be a good starting point for approaching evangelicals and engaging them in discussion, though the site certainly does not have a huge amount of political content.
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. right wing pseudo christians
http://www.right-wing-pseudo-christians.com/

Excellent job of showing that true Christians cannot be right wingers...

Also, see this article on how the fundies are maneuvering to take over mainstream protestant churches through stealth and deception:

http://marty-center.uchicago.edu/sightings/archive_2003/0710.shtml

JULY 10, 2003

The Fighting Methodists
— Andrew J. Weaver

<snip>

A recent book, United Methodism @ Risk: A Wake Up Call by Leon Howell, a respected journalist, argues that mainline churches such as the United Methodist Church (UMC) can no longer afford to be naive about right-wing advocacy groups that are tightly organized, highly motivated and well- financed for a take-no-prisoners campaign against mainline Protestantism. He says that unless these denominations stand up and get in a "fighting mood" the political right-wing aims to take them over.

The political right-wing, operating in the guise of a gaggle of so-called "renewal groups," particularly one named the Institute on Religion and Democracy (IRD), has acquired the money and political will to target three mainline American denominations: The United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church USA, and the Episcopal Church. The IRD was created and is sustained by money from right-wing foundations and has spent millions of dollars over 20 years attacking mainline denominations. The IRD's conservative social-policy goals include increasing military spending and foreign interventions, opposing environmental protection efforts, and eliminating social welfare programs.

<more...>
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. The IRD
I think that's John Neuhaus's outfit.

He's a former Lutheran pastor who became a Roman Catholic priest because he thought the Lutherans were soft on whatever he didn't like.

Everything he's written could have been dictated by the RNC.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. I think Jesus clarified it himself . . .
. . . when he said that the whole law was summed up in two things:

Love the lord your god with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself.

This is a basic lesson all evangelicals should know. I think they need to be brought back to it regularly.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. And thus we see
how many RW Christians actually loathe themselves. :^(
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. It's hard to think of any other explanation.
Well, of course, besides the fact that they've lost sight of the whole point of Christianity and have become the very Pharisees that Jesus spoke out against.

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ldoolin Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. Progressive evangelicals
There are some, such as Tony Campolo, Ron Sider, Sojourners magazine, Cornerstone magazine, Chicago's Jesus People USA.

Also people like Jimmy Carter, U2's Bono, and leftist folksinger Bruce Cockburn who are born-again Christians. Mainline denominations like the United Methodists, Presbyterian Church USA, United Church of Christ (Congregational), Episcopal Church, and Reformed Church In America which are very welcoming of political liberals. A strong "peace and justice" component within the Catholic Church. All of the above would likely play a role in reviving a liberal Christian movement.

In 1976, 70% of evangelical Christians voted for Carter. Even in 1984, the evangelical vote was split about 50-50 between Raygun and Mondale. Today, evangelicals vote about 70-30 in favor of Repukes.

I think there has been a well-funded and well-organized effort by right wing ideologues to attempt to take over Christendom and co-opt it for the right. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and their ilk are tools of the New Right first, and Christians only a distant second, and boy do they know it. Somebody told me in another post to follow the money to Richard Mellon Scaife, and I think they probably hit the nail right on the head.

One thing that may be very important is to show evangelicals how they have been duped by a well-funded right-wing effort to co-opt Christians. Once they realize that Christianity has been the victim of a well-funded takeover effort by the political right, they'll be immunized to any further right-wing propaganda and they'll come back to the liberal side of things where they belong.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The Rev. Moon figures in strongly with that set, too.
He financed Tim LeHaye, Falwell and Robertson at one point.
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ldoolin Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Moon
That's probably true too, and I find that very curious. Don't evangelicals view Moon's Unification Church as a heretical cult?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, I've found it interesting to tell fundies
that Tim LaHaye is a buddy of Moon's, because many of them treat his Left Behind series as non-fiction prophecy.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yes ! Here's some Moon links:
From blm:

from my fellow moonologists at bartcop:

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/faith5.htm
"RELIGION TAX" OFFICE OPENS AS FRINGE GROUPS POISED TO DEMAND CASH
Web Posted: February 21, 2001
As President George W. Bush's White House Office of Faith-based and Community Initiatives opened today, reports proliferated that fringe religious sects including those affiliated with cultist Rev. Sun Myung Moon and a project run by the Church of Scientology will apply for public funds in order to operate social services
>
Another potential suitor for the White House office could be the church operated by Korean cult evangelist Rev. Sun Myung Moon. Moon has been active on the religious right for nearly two decades. A 1977 congressional investigation tied Moon's Unification Church to the "Koreagate" scandal which involved influence buying within the U.S. government. It also revealed that following the 1961 coup, the Korean Central Intelligence Agency began subsidizing the Moon organization to "organize and utilize" the resources of the Unification Church in the U.S. "Moonies" landed key jobs in Washington, DC think-tanks, and in congressional offices. Moon and his satellite fronts were also involved with key religious right projects such as the World Anti-Communist League, and the Korean preacher worked closely with conservative leaders like direct mail wizard Richard Viguerie.
Now, Moon and his church -- re-christened the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification USA -- are reportedly making preparations to obtain funding to promote abstinence programs in schools.
>
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/bush2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/craigmaxim/p-politicians-governorgeorgewbush.html
Some history of the Bush/Moon connection
>
Why is the Unification Church promoting George W. Bush in this way? The answer may be that the Moonies see their best hope for influencing American society and government through a Bush whitehouse. The question of a possible Bush initiative that would use a Moonie created program arises, because the cult has successfully sold their program to numerous public schools and churches in America already, many of which may be unaware of the Moonie connection.
>
http://www.reprogram.net/nyt1.htm
Groups that want the money...

Here are some quotes from AU in 2001 on the subject of what was going on then....
http://www.au.org/churchstate/cs6013.htm
Reading further, they would have found out that the ALC is a project of the American Family Coalition and The Washington Times Foundation – both front organizations for the Rev. Sun Myung Moon, a controversial Korean evangelist and founder of the Unification Church. The "faith-based summit" itself was sponsored by Watts (R-Okla.), Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and other top congressional Republicans, but efforts to promote it at the grassroots level were turned over to a Moon organization.
Why is the Republican Party working hand in glove with Moon front groups? The partnership stems largely from Moon’s phenomenal ability to make inroads in GOP and Religious Right circles. Despite his unorthodox theological views – Moon teaches that he is the new Messiah, sent by God to complete the failed mission of Jesus – Moon has had little difficulty penetrating the upper echelons of American conservatism.
While a number of Republican-aligned private organizations have promoted President George W. Bush’s religion funding scheme, only Moon won an official relationship with the Republican leadership to rally grassroots forces on behalf of the "faith-based" summit. This enhanced status enabled him to do grassroots political organizing – and religious recruitment – with the apparent blessing of Bush and his GOP allies in Congress.
---
Even if you are of the mind to give the FBI the benefit of the doubt, it's how it is used politically by Bush which makes it a very bad thing. The republicans are using it as way to buy black votes. Rob Riley when running for governor of Ala. flew many black ministers to DC to meet with Bush's people on the potential potfull of dough through "Bush's" FBI. The WP did a good article exposing this. You know how we were told they were looking for 'democracy' in Iraq and all the time it was a lie. Well the idea that the republican party wants the black vote in earnest with real policies is a lie, too. They know if they can keep the preachers just from pushing the vote for dems and they can pick up a very small percent of the black vote they win. It has NOTHING to do with policies that would help the black community.
Bush is using the whole thing as a smokescreen to get votes and turn the country's problems over to the churches, sort of 'privatizing' them for the Lord. Here are couple very good articles that tell about that.
http://www.blackcommentator.com/issue_23.html
http://www.blackcommentator.com/29/29_e_mail.html
--
Scroll down here to Arnold Ziffel's post "Moon's Money" if you want to know where the spending change to finance TWT and the conservatives takeover came from:
http://mikemalloy.pmachinehosting.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1012
here are some highlights from a Moon site on the "Gold Watch Tour" when Moon handed out Gold watches to ministers across the country as his troupe gained a stronger foothold in the black community and promoted Bush's FBI. Don't worry about Father spending too much of his hard earned cash, the watches come from Christian Bernard, which Moon owns, so you can be sure those labor charges were low.
If you read the stories of the tour below they will make reference to Moon pushing the FBI. David Caprara, Moon's long time operative and FBI guy, the guy Bush put in charge of VISTA, was on the tour.
Bridgeport http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0227.html
In preparation for the evening program, tour co-sponsor, the American Family Coalition (AFC) held its first ever locally sponsored conference with some one hundred clergy and community leaders from throughout Connecticut in attendance. Discussion and talks focused on the issue of the White House faith-based initiative on government funding for certain types of community programs and outreach run by churches.
Featured speakers included civil rights pioneer and former Congressman Reverend Walter E. Fauntroy. David Caprara, President of AFC and former Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development under Jack Kemp also spoke. Participants came away with new ideas on how their organization might benefit from this influx of government aid and thus make a difference in their own communities.
Idaho http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0415_1.html
At 6:00AM there was already a line waiting for the doors to open.
Once inside, those attending were found to include several state legislators, the Idaho Secretary of State, Pete Cenarrusa, and Mr. and Mrs. Walema, of the Shoshone-Bannock tribe.
Houston http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0306.html
A 600-seat sanctuary, the Depnest Evangelistic Baptist Church, had been obtained, and its head, Pastor Ernest Williams, had said, "Reverend Moon is more than welcome to hold his event here. My church is his church."
---
http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0305.html
Five gold watches, were awarded by Father Moon to 5 outstanding ministers and in addition there was a drawing for several more watches for all ministers in attendance.
http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0302.html
He also told the assembled that "I'm an expert on the spirit world," and "in the afterlife, he said, there are no nationalities or religious sects."
In the end, Father and Mother Moon handed out a few gold watches in honor
of the community service of some of the sacrificial clergy
http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0310.html
Finally, Father Moon received a special VIP invitation to hear the Mormon Tabernacle Choir Radio Broadcast as well a guided tour of the hallowed main Temple. Unfortunately he was not able to attend at this time as "he had to be about His Father's business" and was gone in a flash, headed west to Oregon.
http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0309.html
An early afternoon seminar conducted by Stephen Lazarus from the Center for Public Justice on the specifics of the Faith-based Initiatives programs proposed by the Bush Administration preceded the evening fellowship. According to Dr. David Burgess, the program coordinator, approximately 50 clergy and community leaders participated in the seminar.
http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0308.html
"Some have called Father Moon a cult leader, and I say to them, they said the same thing about Jesus.
"Some have said that he is a false prophet and I say to them this prophet gets a triple A (AAA) rating from the clergy that know him. He is triple A; Anointed, Appointed and Approved by God."
Rev. Harold White stated it well, saying, "We stood for what is right. We will stand with Father and Mother Moon. Through the midnight of darkness, God has brought Father and Mother Moon as a light to guide our way toward the Kingdom of God."
http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0315.html
Reverend Jesse Edwards of the Philadelphia Pentacostalists spoke briefly with conviction, reaffirming the heavenly annointing of Father Moon and this movement for reconciliation, revival, and interfaith rapprochement.
Reverend Dr. Connie Crawford Bansa of Chicago set the pulpit and the
banquet ablaze with her remarks as well.
"When Reverend Moon was called by God he must have asked God, just like Moses -- 'How am I, as a Korean man, going to evangelize America ?'
"God then must have told Father Moon,
'As I was with Moses, so shall I be with you. Do not worry about what to say.
Just Go! Go and proclaim my Word to America and my Word will do the rest.
Just open your mouth and shout!'
"He shouted and he was spit upon, He shouted and he was put in prison. Oh Glory, Glory, as it was with Jesus, they called him a liar, a blasphemer, a prince of demons, they lied upon him, put and prison and nailed him to the cross. But my God has power. Reverend Moon was lied on, talked about , cheated, mistreated, beaten and imprisoned but Glory ..........Gloooooooorieeeeeeee ! My God has power. We will stand. We will stand !"
http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0313.html
Local speakers included Arizona House Speaker Jim Weiers and Doug Wead, who lost his bid for an Arizona congressional seat and is an unofficial adviser to Bush
http://www.wewillstand.org/news/news_0312.html
The Oakland Tribune's headline was "Rev. Moon Stirs Up Fans in Oakland " with a second proclaiming, "Moon: Man, Woman Only Half A Person". Across the bay, The San Francisco Chronicle reported 2000 religious leaders had jammed the Oakland Convention Center banquet hall, the headline blazing proudly, "In Oakland, Moon Stresses Family."
Wasting no time, Father Moon, launched into an animated and impromptu talk about his joy at visiting the San Francisco/Oakland Bay Area again. "God intended men and women to be together as heterosexual pairs - man and woman together - he stated, and "there are many (here in the Bay Area) who do not accept the pair system for human beings."
Father and Mother Moon then presented gold watches to 3 area ministers for their outstanding work in the community. Several more gold (plated) watches were given to other deserving clergy. Five others from the general audience received a watch by lottery drawing as well.
------
Hey, You know that interreligious body Moon is putting up to the UN next month? Moon has been pushing for for years. He gave the founders address to 1200 members of world clergy in 98 telling them to work toward that end.
http://www.sacredcow.com/allnew/index.php?n=index



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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Aug-23-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2

5. Can't forget Parry's excellent works


The Bush-Kim-Moon Triangle of Money

At this past week’s summit, George W. Bush and South Korean President Kim Dae Jung disagreed publicly on how to deal with communist North Korea – Bush advocated a harder line. But the two leaders have a little-known bond in common: the political largesse of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon.

For more than three decades, Moon, the founder of the South Korea-based Unification Church, has spun a worldwide spider's web of influence, connecting to hundreds of powerful leaders through the silken threads of his mysterious money.

Moon’s beneficiaries include the Bush family and, according to U.S. intelligence reports, Kim Dae Jung.

Though seldom discussed publicly, the Moon-Bush connection has been reported before – and detailed in this publication. But Moon’s financial links to Kim Dae Jung – a longtime dissident who opposed the authoritarian governments that ruled South Korea during the Cold War – have remained secret.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/031001a.html


Rev. Moon, the Bushes & Donald Rumsfeld
George W. Bush’s choice of Donald Rumsfeld to be U.S. defense secretary could put an unintended spotlight on the role of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon – a Bush family benefactor – in funneling millions of dollars to communist North Korea in the 1990s as it was developing a missile and nuclear weapons program.

In 1998, Rumsfeld headed a special commission, appointed by the Republican-controlled Congress, that warned that North Korea had made substantial progress during the decade in building missiles that could pose a potential nuclear threat to Japan and parts of the United States.

"The extraordinary level of resources North Korea and Iran are now devoting to developing their own ballistic missile capabilities poses a substantial and immediate danger to the U.S., its vital interests and its allies," said the report by Rumsfeld's Commission to Assess the Ballistic Missile Threat to the United States.

"North Korea maintains an active WMD program, including a nuclear weapon program. It is known that North Korea diverted material in the late 1980s for at least one or possibly two weapons," the report said.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/010301a.html

Rev. Moon, North Korea & the Bushes
The Rev. Sun Myung Moon's business empire, which includes the conservative Washington Times, paid millions of dollars to North Korea's communist leaders in the early 1990s when the hard-line government needed foreign currency to finance its weapons programs, according to U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency documents.

The payments included a $3 million “birthday present” to current communist leader Kim Jong Il and offshore payments amounting to “several tens of million dollars” to the previous communist dictator, Kim Il Sung, the partially declassified documents said.

Moon apparently was seeking a business foothold in North Korea. But the transactions also raise legal questions for Moon and could cast a shadow on George W. Bush’s presidential campaign, given the Bush family’s longstanding financial and political ties to Moon and his organization.

Besides making alleged payments to North Korea’s communist leaders, the 80-year-old founder of the South Korean-based Unification Church has funneled large sums of money, possibly millions of dollars as well, to former President George H.W. Bush.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/101100a.html

many more articles here:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/moon.html




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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
22. I know a student at a conservative christian college
He is a strong democrat.

Fellow students freak out that he, a theology major, is a democrat.

He says he just quietly says 'I'm a theology major and I read the Bible a lot. And the democratic party stands for what Jesus stands for, and the republican party doesn't.'
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
23. Evangelicals believe in the literal truth of the Bible
as translated into English (not the original). The only translations they trust are homophobic, sexist, racist...
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