The Nazi policy that will not die. Or is history repeating itself?

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.freedommag.org/english/spegerm/page18.htm

The incestuous relationship between church and state in Germany was authored by Hitler—and persists to this day.

In 1919, the Weimar Republic mandated that the state subsidy of churches should cease. But, in reality, this mandate was breached before the ink used to write it was dry. Only fourteen years later, the arrangement was a matter of law.

In the years leading up to Hitler’s assumption of total state power, the most serious potential opposition to his mad solutions were those within Germany’s Catholic and Lutheran churches who objected to the excesses of National Socialism.

Historically, churches and religions have, more than once, played the role of society’s only check against political oppression. Accordingly, governments have often harbored hostility towards them—particularly since they postulate a higher authority than the state.

But Hitler circumvented that problem in 1933. In return for maintaining state support for the churches, Hitler secured an agreement that the churches would not oppose the National Socialists’ rise to power.

Practically overnight, both churches developed active participation in advancing the goals of the Nazis. The Lutheran press began to talk of the Jews as the “natural enemies” of Christianity. The Catholic Church even agreed to an oath of fealty to be taken by all bishops, agreeing “Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise—as becomes a bishop—loyalty to the German Reich and to the state ... and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honor it.”

more

[ArkDem]

1. Great source

:boring:

[Dogmudgeon]

2. Not-so-great source

Freedom magazine is a mouthpiece of the Church of $cientology.

As with the LaRouche stuff, you have to scrutinize the primary sources, too.

--bkl

[NNN0LHI]

3. Always easier to attack the messenger when one doesn't like the message

Are you saying this story is untrue? No? Didn't think so.

Don

[ArkDem]

4. Yes. Untrue.

Scientology :crazy:

[NNN0LHI]

12. Didn't end in Germany either

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/reliefresources/435256.htm

<snip>The Holocaust is unprecedented in our history. Let us make that clear from the start. But let us also learn from the indescribable evil that took place with the blessing of the German Catholic Church and ordinary Germans.

As Daniel Goldhagen writes in his excellent account, "Hitler’s Willing Executioners", it was the regular German who supported Hitler’s rise to power. It was ordinary people who stood behind the building of a supreme army and declarations of war. We know the rest of our shameful history. But we must not forget it, because history keeps repeating itself.

It was the ordinary white Christian South African that supported the rise of Botha to power and his apartheid legislation. They were the once who stood behind the apartheid regime when Mandela was labelled a "terrorist" and sentenced to life in prison.

And, it was the regular Christian Orthodox Serb on the streets of Belgrade that elected Milosevic, who would later mobilise the Yugoslav Army to enter Kosovo under the pretext of fighting the "terrorists" of the Kosovo Liberation Army. It was the Serb people who supported Milosevic’s crackdown on and the slaughter of the Kosovo Albanian population.

more

[ArkDem]

17. Goldhagen believes all Germans are anti-semitic

and I believe he is pretty much alone in his historical views of Germany.

[Dirk39]

42. He got much more moderate later...

but apart from this, there is a lot of truth in his book. Hitler didn't come from Jupiter all of a sudden, and he and his many friends didn't simply disappear, after we were liberated by your parents or grandparents among others. And the Nazi-system was about much more than just a small number of people oppressing and manipulating the "innocent" majority of german citizens. But this is one thing, most germans don't understand and most americans don't want to understand with their Hollywood clichés about fashism. If people would understand this, our societies would have been changed in a radical way. And there are people, who don't want this to happen by any means.
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Dogmudgeon]

6. The messenger has a LONG history ...

... of unreliable communication.

In $cientology terms (no $cn pun intended), the Church itself is its own primary generator of entheta.

Although $cientologists and even LRH have presented interesting, truthful stable data, I make it a special point to double-check what they say. It is unfortunate, but necessary at this point.

I have no problem with the message itself. If the stuff happened, it happened. But the Co$ has been locked in a tremendous struggle with the government of Germany, and most of the linked issue is critical of Germany, Germans, and makes frequent references to Hitler.

Since the practice of reactively associating two factoids is the very definition of entheta, I can only assume the Church has some serious "case" it still has to work out.

If you're a $cientologist, you've probably hated this. Sorry; it's not meant personally. I myself hope that the Co$ can "get clear" on their social issues, and soon. But until that time comes, I'll keep my eyes open and my wallet in my pants. I'd like to think that in his more enlightened moments, The Commodore himself would have recommended that same course.

--bkl
ps -- The use of the dollar sign isn't simply for sarcasm -- or even for sarcasm at all. It is useful to fake out the $cn search bots, ever vigilant for on-line entheta.

[Paschall]

23. Agreed

And without reading further, I question the accuracy of this statement:

"Historically, churches and religions have, more than once, played the role of society’s only check against political oppression. Accordingly, governments have often harbored hostility towards them—particularly since they postulate a higher authority than the state."

When in European history have church/religions played such a role? The dominant Catholic Church has always been aligned with the political power no matter what the circumstances, unless evinced by a Protestant church. Meanwhile, Protestants and other religious minorities have, as far as I know, rarely struggled against "political oppression" and never successfully. Did the Vatican ever excommunicate a European monarch for crushing a peasant revolt? Did the Reformed Huguenots raise an army to free French farmers from royal taxes? No. The struggles these churches have fought have all been religious, which is to say self-serving.

However the premise fits nicely with a textbook version of American history that confounds the Pilgrims' flight for religious freedom and the birth of the Republic. And it frames the Scientologists' argument for "religious freedom" within a hypothetical struggle against "political oppression" where Adolf is the looming figure of darkness, where any state control of religion is viewed as "political oppression" ipso facto.

But it overlooks the fact that several European countries have official state religions that receive public funding. If the information I read recently is accurate, although it gurantees religious freedom, the Greek constitution even stipulates that the Greek Orthodox Church is the "dominant" religion in the country. I'd like to know: Even if Hitler signed it, is the German system any more condemnable than the one in Greece, or any other European country with an offical or semi-official religion?

[thebigidea]

25. uh oh - you sound like an SP 3, at least!

Better fire up those intention beams! OT powers, activate!

[Chutaiko]

5. As usual there is more to it...

The Subsidy of churches in Germany comes from a religion tax paid by the taxpayers in Germany. This tax is a voluntary tax and the taxpayer chooses which "family" of religion he wants his tax to support (i.e. Catholic, Lutheran, Evangelical....etc).

Then the money collected for this subsidy is basically paid for by those people who want to support the subsidy.

I, for one, do not pay Religion Tax as I am about as agnostic as one can be.

[Droopy]

10. Welcome to DU, Chutaiko

I take it you're from Germany. I hope you like it here. :toast:

[Chutaiko]

11. Yes and No

I'm from the US. I just chose to move here when Dubya stole the election. Now I've got a very different perspective on the US that I ever had before and it just reinforces how much of an unpatriotic liberal I really am ;-)

[Karenina]

36. Has it ever happened to you

when discussing an issue with a fellow ex-pat, that you hear the words, "You don't want to go there with them" or "Better leave that one alone?"
Perspective is key, and perception much more powerful than fact.

The "church tax" is VOLUNTARY. (Just wanted to repeat that in case anyone missed it ;-) ) Scientology has a HUGE ax to grind here as the German perception of what they are on about had many recoiling at the stench. Subsequently, they were subjected to intense scrutiny and soundly rejected.

[madrchsod]

18. welcome to du

glad to have you onboard. we always need a european outlook on the united states..

[newyawker99]

46. Hi Chutaiko!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Widgetsfriend]

7. Help me understand the objection.

Did Hitler not form a union with the churches mentioned? If not, can you point to some articles from impeccable sources that refute the basic premises of this article? That would be super. Thanks!

[Dirk39]

8. What kínd of BS....

Hello from Germany,
this is a typical kind of BS, mixing half-truth, facts and demagogic to push their idiotism.
If you really want to understand this, you should study the different concepts of "nation" and "state" and "government" in the history of Germany and most european nations in comparison to the concept of the USA. Especially the concept of " sovereignty". There is no easy answer to this. The Nazis couldn't erase religion, so they tried to use it, but simultaneously, they did compete with religion in fullfilling one aspect of the european concept that was always present in our history: to become a kind of god-state. As you might know, the jewish religion doesn't accept Jesus, because they reject the idea of a god that becomes human or "reality". The Nazis somehow were about to create a state that makes "god" an absolute reality.
The kind of "sects" and religious fundamentalism, you find in the USA today - and among them scientology - are much more results of the secular concept of the american nation and state than of the opposite.

Read Hegel or Carl Schmidt (the teacher of Leo Strauss) but leave me alone with this BS.

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Chutaiko]

9. Schlaflos??

Dirk,

Schöne Grüsse von FFM..

Du schläfst auch nicht?

[Dirk39]

14. But I'm half asleep....

as you see, trying to express very complex thougths in "english"...

Hallo aus Hamburg!

Dirk

[Chutaiko]

16. It's easier in English

Complex thoughts in German always make me wonder if I'm using "Dative" or "Nominative" or "Bullshitative"

etc..etc..etc...usw...usw...usw

[Karenina]

30. Welche Geschlect hat das Wort?

Ohne Artikel GEHT'S NICHTS, NADA, BASTA! :hi:

[Karenina]

35. OOPS! Ich meine

GESCHLECHT.

[NNN0LHI]

15. Hitler was baptized a Catholic. He was even an alter boy

Perhaps you can give us the date that the Catholic church excommunicated Hitler?

This should be a hoot.

Don

[Dirk39]

19. A catholic would reply:

Do you think, a church that didn't have any control anymore under the Nazi-regime, would baptizise Hitler? In Germany, when the Nazis were in control?
O.K. I admit it: they should have baptized him like Jesus might have done....

I would agree 100% with you, if you would claim that the way the official protestant church and even more so the catholic church did act during the times of fashism, is unacceptable and disgusting. But this doesn't say a lot or reveals anything about the relation between the churches and the state under fashism.
To give you a historic example:
If the democrats in the USA nominate Clark as an alternative to Bush, it might say a lot about the state the democratic party in the US is in, but it doesn't reveal any kind of historic truth about democrats, liberals or progressive people in general, or do you dare to contradict me?
It just reveals a lot about opportunism in general...
Dirk

[NNN0LHI]

21. So Hitler was not ever excommunicated? Isn't that what you are saying?

Which means that Hitler is in Christian heaven where all good Christians go, while the 6 million Jews he murdered are not welcomed there because they didn't believe in Jesus Christ the Christian Savior. Kind of odd to say the least.

Don

[Dirk39]

40. If there should be any god...

I guarantee you that he or she doesn't care at all, if someone is excommunicated or not by any church. But 'cause I rather doubt, there is one: if the catholic church would have excommunicated Hitler, the nazis would have started to pressurize the catholics in Germany, whether to leave the church or to get into the next concentration camp. This would just have been stupid.
On the other hand: maybe if the catholic church along with the protestants would have made a strong and uncompromising statement that there can't be any kind of collaboration between christians of any kind and the Nazis, maybe this would have led to a kind of rebellion against Hitler and saved uncountable human lifes. But we will never see any official church in any western nation to do something like this. Pray and obey!
Apart from this, the mentioned aspect of the jewish religion might be one of the most impressing directions of any religion. The christians - as their successors - could never forgive the jews for that and they were always jealous of them anyway. There is a long tradition of christian anti-semitism that was preceding the Nazis. The kind of secular religion of the nazi state might be the absolute opposite of the jewish religion.


Dirk

[lcordero]

13. That's not the only policies

Take a look at water fluoridation and the gun control laws

http://www.jpfo.org/GCA_68.htm

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/05/67839.html

[Kellanved]

28. Sorry, but that's wrong

Hitler liberalized Guns in Germany, allowing over the counter sale of long guns without permit etc . The myth that Hitler introduced Gun Control is just that: a myth.

[Blue_Roses]

20. Hilter once hung wall

paper. Yes, I know this is totally off this subject, but my 80 year-old uncle told me this over the holidays. We were talking about my parents who both served in the Army during WWII (mom was a nurse in the pacific;dad was in Normandy) and he was adding to some facts that I found in my parents Army trunks. For some reason, when he said Hitler "used to hang wall paper," I found it odd. How bizzare. Who would have thought that a man who once "hung wall paper," would go on be such a brutal tyrant. Maybe it's my cold medicine, but I found that so odd. He said how Hitler had a way with politics and could mesmorize a crowd. He also said that Hitler wasn't always, "crazy" but that he believes that when Hitler got syphillis that it literally drove him crazy.

Who knows, but I always enjoy listening to this generation talk about the war. Guess I just want to know what my parents went through. So much of history has a way of repeating itself.

[Dogmudgeon]

22. That may be a canard

Hitler was called a "one-armed paper hanger." I don't know where the epithet came from. My Mother was a kid during WWII and she actually thought that Hitler had lost an arm in WWI or something like that.

Hitler was a painter; maybe people confused it with painting and wallpapering houses.

Hitler's crazy ideas about Jews and racial purity seem to have started early in his adulthood, and appear in diaries from his mid-20s. It was very well-developed in Mein Kampf which he wrote in prison for the 1923 "Beer Hall Putsch" -- he would have been about 40-45 then.

Syphilis? I think Hitler had enough medical attention from 1934 onward that evidence of it would have come out by now. Still, it may be possible that it was hushed up, but tertiary Syphilis usually weakens a person's body quite a bit.

As to history repeating, well, they say only the styles change. I think things have gotten better over the last few millennia, but the ghosts of Hitler and Stalin would argue otherwise.

--bkl

[Damndifino]

38. One-armed paper-hanger

The earliest instance of this expression that I know of (not relating to Hitler) comes from a Ring Lardner story called 'Some Like Them Cold' from ca. 1920. The full expression is 'Busy as a one-armed paper-hanger' (i.e. overwhelmed by work).

[Pontus]

24. Wall paper, Naziism -- a connection?

He was also an artist, a vegetarian and an Agnostic New Ager. He also never had children and his sexual orientation has been a topic of controversy.

So be careful of any policy that hints at supporting artistic wall paper hangers who flirt with astrology, are agnostic and are childless.

[Dirk39]

43. Berthold Brecht and other germans, who opposed him used to

call him "Der Anstreicher". I wish there would be an english word for Anstreicher.
To personalize history in a way that leads to the conclusion that Hitlers syphillis, if he ever had one, was responsible for the way, germany took then, is a bit naive, isn't it?
Wall paper hanger is more of a joke.
Hitler did leave the secondary school without a degree in 1905. He applied two times for a scholarship on the academy of arts in vienna, austria, but they rejected him.


Mother maria (1913)

Dirk

[banana republican]

26. Please review the "Barman Declaration"

before passing any judgment on the church in Germany. During WWII the German church split over the policies of Hitler and his attempt to subvert the church for his personal gain.

[mrdmk]

27. Maybe a connection

There maybe a good reason for Scientologist to be worried. The following was read from a Unitarian Universalist Church paper:

http://www.uuworld.org/2004/01/feature2.html

<snip>

In Texas, where I live, the state has refused to grant the Ethical Society in Austin a church tax exemption because its members don't believe in God. The state maintains that defining God as a concept won't do, that to qualify as a church the society's members must believe in God as a being. The case has been through two appeals, and the state's attorneys have now taken it to the Texas Supreme Court. If the state wins, the ruling will affect every Unitarian Universalist church in the state—not to mention Buddhists, Taoists, and Hindus. Austin has the largest Hindu temple in North America, and Hindus are quite clear that Brahman is in no sense a being, and that all his personified images—as Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva, or the Divine Mother Durga and her manifestations—are all imaginative creations, not beings.

<snip>

As we may know, things in Texas have not been so progressive. I will believe Unitarian Church before a Scientology Church any day of the week.

This maybe off-topic, there is some interesting reading in the Nation Concerning Texas and the political changes there. The name of the article is Texas, Inc. Taking Privatization to Extremes, A New Law Ends the Public Sector, as We Knew It. If you can get a copy, it is scary reading. Fundamentalism is taking Texas society for a real ride.

[Kellanved]

29. I think it's simpler: they want their share

Almost all Christian confessions, the German Jewish Council and are members of the deal described in the half-truths of the article.

Several sects are currently trying to sue their way in: Jehovah's witnesses and AFAIR Scientology among them.

[Karenina]

39. Alles geht um Geld.

.

[Dirk39]

41. Um DAS Geld, Karenina!

While the sun and the world are feminine and the state is a guy, money is a thing...
Happy new year, Karenina,
Dirk

[Paschall]

47. Interesting. Got more information?

I find that story about Texas a bit confusing.

I'm not sure what tax the Ethical Society was seeking exemption from. Texas has no income tax; perhaps it was property tax? I can't find any reference to this on their website. http://www.esoa.org

Regardless, I don't think state criteria have anything to do with IRS (federal) tax-exempt status. And, if I'm not mistaken, Madalyn Murray O'Hair's American Atheist organization obtained IRS tax-exempt status when they were headquartered in Austin.

[mrdmk]

48. Go Here

http://www.esoa.org/0303ap.html

The connection I am trying to make is fundamentalism is becoming a major problem in this country. Most western organized religions do not want independent thought or freedoms. The Republicans are being pulled into a pit because of dependence on the religious right. This is their undoing when they advocate a belief in God can dictate laws to the government concerning the people. Especially which God the people must believe in.

[Paschall]

49. Thanks. So the Ethical Society won its lawsuit

And has been recognized by the State of Texas as a religion.

[Sugarbleus]

31. I've seen the connection..

between what we have and what went on in Germany. I've been watching this current conservative movement for months thinking 'how familiar this American dynamic is to that time in history..'
EEEEEEEEK! :wow:



http://www.liberalslikechrist.org

(and similar links) talk a wee bit about the strange bedfellows the fundies and the neocons are these days. hmmmm

[bobthedrummer]

32. What do you expect from the Heirs to The Holocaust?

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ROG309A.html

http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/bushies.htm

[mmonk]

33. Actually

the Nazis used old religious prejudices to its advantage. It, however, considered religion an enemy of sorts that needed to be watched and controlled.

[nancyharris]

34. I have no quarrel

with your assertion of a German Government association with both the Catholic and Lutheran Churches however your assertion that this is an “incestuous relationship” and “authored by Hitler” as no basic in fact.

Most countries, both at the time and since, have cultivated close relationships with religious organizations. France, Italy, Spain, Denmark and England all had some form of state sponsorship of religion (none more so than England). Israel is itself a “Jewish” nation. Despite any claims concerning the separation of church/state, the United States government today provides direct support to most religious organizations by prohibiting taxes (federal, state and local) to be levied against them. Church income, property and investments are not taxed like other “profit-making” enterprises (a system of tax protection set into motion by FDR by the way).

To my knowledge, there are no candidates, from either party, that have suggested that organized religion should lose their tax-exempt status.

[Damndifino]

37. Church and state in Britain

France, Italy, Spain, Denmark and England all had some form of state sponsorship of religion (none more so than England)

This is slightly misleading. Although the Church of England is established (i.e. part of the state), the reality is somewhat different from what that might lead you to expect. The C of E is, in practice, religion for people who aren't really very religious. (Bit of an over-simplification there, but never mind.) Perhaps this is why Britain doesn't suffer the potentially catastrophic results that could come from a close church-state relationship.

[Dirk39]

44. But then, please explain to me:

if you compare France and GB as colonialists, while the french imperialists were just about to enslave and use the people, the Brits tried to missionary them and make them christians. Nearly all african people I know, who come from former british colonies are christians, that's not true for people coming from french colonies. And isn't there still a bit of this in Blair's disgusting "mission" he shares with the fundamentalistic christians in the USA?
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Damndifino]

45. Explanation

1. Victorian Britain (and religion therein) was not the same as it is today. Furthermore, overzealous Christians tended to be attracted to missionary work, and therefore were disproportionately represented in the colonies.

2. Blair's christianity. Personally, I am unconvinced about the sincerity of this. In practice, he seems the typical C of E wishy-washy Christian I outlined above. Example: when asked by a journalist whether he prayed with Bush prior to the Iraq war, he was deeply embarrassed by the question - which I don't think a really sincere Christian would be. His 'mission', such as it is, seems to be the spreading of American values, not necessarily Christianity per se.

(Incidentally, after all this Christian stuff, I feel I ought to point out that I write as an atheist.)

On edit: Also, when Blair's spokesman was asked a similar religion-related question, it was revealed that the official government position was that "we don't do God". Can you imagine that in America? Bush's career might be badly damaged if his spokesman dismissed religious values in this way. Britons found it amusing.