Born Again Christian Returns

[jamesarg]

Hi there, this is James. I am impressed that my thread got 205 replies. I have not abandoned my original post, I have just have been watching you all reply to it. I am new to this board and am dismayed at all the extreme leftists. It is actually kind of scarry if any of you guys got into power, no offense to any of you personally. We are supposed to be Democrats, not communists or socialists.

As a Christian, I lead an international bible study at UF, many of these international students will return to home countries or go to other countries as missionaries. In fact we had one girl from South Korea go to Afgahanstan and share the Gospel.

I am currently interning for Senator Lieberman's presidential campaign, and I find his faith very refreshing. He is on fire for God, even more than most Christian I come across. Remember most blacks, a big time Democratic constituency, are Christian, many are actually born again and not just nominal. Most blacks also oppose abortion. In fact the abortion issue is why most Christians are Republicans. I personally am pro-life, but could not bring myself to overturn Roe v. Wade. However my point is that our party should be a big tent, open to many views.

- James

[mkultra]

1. Long time democrat

I am a long time democrat who has never supported abortion.

Im proud of you for being a christian and supporting a jewish candidate since they dont acknowledge jesus. Kudos to you for keeping church and state seperate!

[jsw_81]

28. Does anyone really support abortion?

No. We support a woman's right to control her own body and support educational programs so that we can reduce the need for abortion. You might be able to make the argument that Republicans are the ones who really support abortion, because every time their policies go into effect (e.g. "abstinence only") the number of abortions skyrocket.

[dawn]

49. Exactly. n/t

[Tansy_Gold]

68. And the police support burglars and the fire dept. . . . .

. . .. supports arsonists and all the "strong on national defense" folks are really just in favor of perpetual war and bombing and killing and genocide and don't ever ever ever want peace.

/sarcasm off/

Pro choice is not pro abortion. If pro-choice were, in fact, pro-abortion, they would never advocate contraception, emergency contraception, adoption, abstinence, or anything else. Their mantra would be "have sex! get pregnant! abort! it's fun! it's fulfilling!" Gimme a break.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[corporatewhore]

5. your right jesus was a pinko commie

he hanged with a prostitute and didnt he say if you have two cloaks and your neighbor has none give him one of yours that is the essence of communism

[Webster Green]

7. Jesus was an extreme leftist AND socialist.....

The so-called born again Christians would be fighting each other for the chance to crucify Him again.

[tom_paine]

40. Yep, and Reichsmarschall Asscrust would personally hammer the nails

into Jesus' hands.

"Jesus was no liberal," he'd say confidently as he replicated the Roman Imperials.

[corporatewhore]

52. of course jesus was an antiwar mid easterner w/beard

[blondeatlast]

69. And probably dark brown, besides.

[Sperk]

3. I guess not all Born agains are created equally...My bother

and his wife are born agains and no offense....but they are SCARY!...I'm not kidding when I say, I think if they found out Bush let 9/11 happen, they would rationalize it, think a greater good come out of it etc, etc. :scared:

[SheilaT]

4. Most Christians are Republicans?

What sort of narrow definition of Christian are you using? I'm sorry that you buy into the self-righteous bigoted notion that being a Christian and honoring a woman's right to choose what happens to her body are incompatible. I also question your sweeping assertion that most blacks oppose abortion.

The sad reality of abortion is that no one really favors it, but that the reality of life is that not all pregnancies are wanted and that an accidental embryo does not have a greater claim to life than the women in whom it resides.

[HFishbine]

34. And factually incorrect

only 44% of African Americans would favor a ban on abortion.

55% of the people who voted in the last presidential election thought that abortion should be always or mostly legal, 40% said mostly or always illegal.

As for Christians, most Protestants voted for Bush, most Catholics voted for Gore. Niether party has a "lock" on Christians.

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m4PRN/2000_August_29/64786706/p1/article.jhtml

http://www.udel.edu/poscir/road/course/exitpollsindex.html

[Cheswick2.0]

6. James I am a leftist and I stuck up for you so............

you might not want to characterize people either. I don't know what you think is extreme, but if you are here to make the same old argument that "liberals" are chasing people from the party then you need to rethink it. I am a liberal. I am an elder in my church. I often argue that "even fundamentalists have a right to freedom of religion", because some people are so irrationally anti religion they forget that fact. Now you hit me with leftists are ruining the party?
Clearly, there is plenty of intolerance to go around.

And where the hell did you get the idea "most christians are republicans"? :eyes:

[salin]

65. am thinking perhaps from a bit of mixing

most christians... with most born again/evangelical christians into a single category.

I think that intolerance to ideas is killing this country from all sides. When one shuts off so much talk because it doesn't sound like the current conventional wisdom, one can never consider alternatives that in terms of policy may make much more long term pragmatic sense. Its a shame, imo. And it happens from all directions.

If historical pushes to stop all exploration of alternative ideas and theories - we would still be believing that the world is flat and the earth is the center of the solar system (and universe?!) *sigh*

God gave us such great capacity to think - to learn - to study - to learn from different ideas and challenge and stretch our knowledge... but in a public capacity there is such a tendency to chose NOT to use that God given gift. In some Presbyterian traditions there is NO conflict between God and religioan vs science... it is only that which we mere humans have not yet discovered/figured out... and it is through religious/spiritual discourse and development of science that we grow closer to understanding that which has been created and that which continues to evolve. Today, many christian churches have returned to a level of dogmatism that would never allow this kind of discourse. If Jesus were to come back... would he not be likely to be pushing philosophy around God and religion? Would he not be asking us to think and stretch? Would this be tolerated by those who believe so rigidly (and to outsiders it appears - selectively) and literally the Bible who do not believe in discourse for new understandings, but instead emphasizes a more rote understanding of what has been written?

[Cheswick2.0]

8. come on james, you started the thread

come back and defend your points.

[MidwestMomma]

10. I think he sensed the godlessness of the GD2004 and fled

:evilgrin:

[Deesh]

9. Nothing against you personally, James --

-- but I think missionaries suck. They arrogantly invade the established domain of indigenous peoples and try to coax them to Christian fundamentalism. Very smarmy.

How old was the "girl" who went from South Korea to Afghanistan to share the gospel? Do you mean, literally, a girl -- a female human of say, age 4 or 7 or 9? Or do you mean an adult woman? Just asking. I wasn't allowed to cross the street by myself when I was 7. Afghanistan would have been out of the question.

The previous posts hint at the socialism of Christ. They're right-on. You need to re-examine the central tenets of your own faith, and not least, its eastern influences. Your Christ is too tidy and compromised; the real one hung with hookers and thieves and was armed to the teeth against the provincial authorities when they arrested him in Gethsemane.

That's Leftist with a big 'L'.

[Lil Kim]

22. Re: Nothing against you personally, James

How old was the "girl" who went from South Korea to Afghanistan to share the gospel? Do you mean, literally, a girl -- a female human of say, age 4 or 7 or 9? Or do you mean an adult woman?

I'm guessing he probably meant someone over 18 and was just using girl in the real world normal non-PC manner.

[Deesh]

30. In the real world --

--women are discriminated against in part because language is used to belittle and demean them. His language was sexist and suggests that he is at variance with the platform of the Democratic Party. A man of similar age would not have been referred to as a "boy."

[blondeatlast]

77. I agree with you on missionaries and my Christian values are deep

rooted.

I equate it with rain forest destruction, only in the missionaries' case, they are plowing down souls, spirit, and culture.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Aaah, the author of the "God is moving in Iraq" thread

How can I forget such a post!

How many times have we seen throughout history how "white man's burden" brought culture and religion to "pagan" lands, not to mention colonial troops. I recall suggesting that you read what happened in Hawaii. Here is a little bit of this glorious example of Christian proselytizing and imperialism all rolled into one:

'Conquest of Hawaii' a painfully true account of island history
VIEWPOINT
The Maui News
Tuesday, October 21, 2003
(Read the original unedited version)

By CHARLES K. MAXWELL

Capt. James Cook brought diseases that decimated our people by the hundreds of thousands. The missionaries arrived in 1820, to do exactly what the host, Hu, said, "They came here to do good, instead they did well."

Missionaries who left the ministry saw how bountiful this land was. In the name of Christianity, they became advisers to the kings and queens of Hawaii and changed laws to allow the acquisition of Hawaiian land. Not being satisfied with controlling the land, with the help of U.S. troops they took over the Hawaiian Islands in 1893 in what is known as the "overthrow." It should have been known as a terrorist attack on a friendly nation.

The anti-annexation petition did contain 98 percent of all the Hawaiians living in Hawaii. As for the Statehood Act, America accepted Hawaii with tainted title. Missionary descendants, American businessmen and others gave Hawaii to America. They were not the true owners of the land. Everyone - not just the kanaka maoli - who lived in Hawaii was allowed to vote for statehood. The question is are the kanaka maoli better off today because of the Statehood Act?

All the trouble Hawaiians face today is a direct result of being colonized.

http://www.moolelo.com/conquest-of-hawaii.html

BTW, I am watching a movie on cable on the life of Paul Gauguin. There are several scenes of a crazy French priest destroying the holy idols of the Tahitians, much to their distress, not to mention the loss of their culture. There is one scene in the film in which someone tries to shoot the priest. I wish he had succeeded--the priest's crimes were but a micro version of what his Spanish counterparts did in the Americas.

[La_Serpiente]

21. Wow, thanks for sharing that info

Most people do not know that Hawaii was a sovereign kingdom that was taken over by the US. Thanks for sharing it with the rest of DU. :-)

[IndianaGreen]

25. Thank you, La_Serpiente

Many Americans are ignorant of the true history of our country, and of European colonization across the world.

[Wonk]

50. Link

"God is moving in Iraq.

I am a Democrat and I gave my life to Jesus when I was 18, that is three years ago. Everyone needs to know Jesus as their savior, not just Republicans, but Democrats, Communists, Libertarians, Socialists, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Born again Christians, Agnostics, Athiests, nothings. It doesn't matter what you say your religion is or political party is, you need Jesus to save you from your sins. I am helping to prep some of those young missionaries who will be going over there, and yes I am a Democrat because I believe in the party, even if leftists athiests in the party don't believe in me.

- James"

---

If matter is too complicated to exist without a creator, how can a 'god' exist without a creator? If something as complicated as a 'god' can exist without a creator why cannot simple matter exist without a creator?

"Look, we're fighting a war against religious extremists, this is no time to be offensive to God!" - Jon Stewart

"You know we see it in foreign countries and we think,
'How can this religious fundamentalism become so violent?'
Well, it's that same shrill rhetoric, it's that same shrill power
that motivates. ... And that's happening in this country."
-- Tom Daschle

[A HERETIC I AM]

12. oooh,......i just....i should...no....ooooh.....no...i wont......oh, what

the hell....

Hi James!
This is Paul!
I am also somewhat new to this board and i too enjoy watching replies to comments i make. I am often dismayed at the responses to various points of view expressed but i take that as a sign of a healthy debate, not as a threat to social order or a warning that those parties are of a political predilection i have been warned about as a youngster but have since realized isn't as bad as my 2nd grade teacher or my 10th grade social studies classmates might have thought. Socialism exists every time your neighbor helps you rake the leaves or offers you a ride somewhere or buys you lunch and Communism exists at every potluck supper you have attended but has yet to be tried as a social order as it's author suggested.

As an Atheist (That is: one who has NO gods. in fact, to be honest, you being Christian, have 3 gods rolled into one and you reject all the thousands of other gods that mankind has invented. I just reject one {or three} more than you)
I lead an international, unregulated and loosely knit group of free thinking, unrelated individuals that strive daily to solve practical problems in the real world using science, reason and logic in an effort to further the ideals of living a healthy, intellectually free life. We don't go to foreign countries to spread the ideals of logic, rather we trust that humans will seek out this naturalism on their own accords. Real truth requires no sales job.

We are the people you see every day. We don't have a cross hung around our necks, or a jesus fish on our car. We smile and say hello, we hold open doors for you and others, we are generally polite and kind and we have incredibly strong convictions and a deep personal ethic which is centered around doing what is right. Not because of a reward or punishment that might or might not come in some ethereal plane at some undefinable later date but rather because it is what is right

I wont speak for members of a race other than my own, and i don't speak for many of them either. But i can and will say that what ever they think, it is UP TO THEM. THEY must live with their decisions. And i want my government and it's leaders to leave them the hell alone about it. And i want their religion to leave me the hell alone too. Any leader that is "On fire for god" needs, in the opinion of the millions upon millions of folks that think rationally, TO PUT HIMSELF THE FUCK OUT and get back to reality and stop pandering to those that insist on living in the dark ages.

Thanks for your time.

Paul

[mkultra]

13. the wisper

Maybe that knowledge of ethics and right is god in you :)

Just messin with ya

[A HERETIC I AM]

14. lol....touche'

[FlaGranny]

64. Just messin'?

You could be right about that. God could be in a person who does the right thing. If there is a god and he is "in" a person who does good in the world, will that god then condemn that good person to hell for lack of belief in him?

[jonnyblitz]

37. I am with you.

I used to be a member of Freedom From Religion Foundation out of Madison, WI. I even went to one of their 4th of July gatherings in Alabama. I kind of fell out of it all due to personal situations and never got back into it. One of my futuristic plans is to be able to stand my own in a god vs atheism debate. I was obsessed with all of this in the 90's ..anyways. I hope to see you post more. PM me with the name of your international group...

[info being]

43. I'm interested in your group

What's it called?

[Blue_Chill]

54. oooh,......i just....i should...no....ooooh.....no...i wont......oh, what

the hell....

Socialism exists every time your neighbor helps you rake the leaves or offers you a ride somewhere or buys you lunch and Communism exists at every potluck supper you have attended but has yet to be tried as a social order as it's author suggested.

This is a sales job (which you later claim you don't do) because none of the above is communism or socialism. Both terms are based on worker controlled industry, often confused with the more touchy feely and completely dishonest "sharing concept".

In your cute and fuzzy example people are happy and willing to share with each other. In communism and socialism, you don't decide if you want to share with your neighbor, what you earned is taken and distributed.



I lead an international, unregulated and loosely knit group of free thinking, unrelated individuals that strive daily to solve practical problems in the real world using science, reason and logic

Reason and Logic yet you believe in communism and pretend it's about sharing......



Real truth requires no sales job.

Never mind those "sales jobs" also imply getting your hands dirty and helping people in the worst conditions in the world. I can see why your group decided against the whole "sales job" thing, helping others in the real world where you need more then reason and logic, like say 'hard back breaking work' and 'living in horrible conditions'.

But then again are you really against the whole "sales job" thing, after all you did misrepresent communism earlier in your little sharing example. I guess you just don't like the sales jobs that require you to leave your comfortable conditions eh?



We smile and say hello, we hold open doors for you and others, we are generally polite and kind and we have incredibly strong convictions and a deep personal ethic which is centered around doing what is right. Not because of a reward or punishment that might or might not come in some ethereal plane at some undefinable later date but rather because it is what is right

What is "right". Does it change? How does one decide what is right or wrong? Is it just everyones opinions?

I wonder what your basis for deciding that which is right and wrong is exactly? Is it right to harm one for the good of many? What about social consequence of progress how is it that you measure such things?



stop pandering to those that insist on living in the dark ages.

You are right we should drop our silly cloud man beliefs and embrace progress and "sharing" right away. I mean hell it's not like that kind of thinking has ever failed before right?

Have a day.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

15. James,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. As a born-again Christian, who is also pro-life, I think the Dems need to seriously rethink the abortion issue. We're getting killed on the issue, pardon the pun. Democrats nowadays are viewed by many heartlanders as elitist, pro-abortion, anti-God leftist whackos. We need to kill that false perception dead. It's hard to do that, when the platform is taken over by the abortion lobby.

I am now convinced that being pro-life is a liberal position, and that liberals should be for protecting all life, including the unborn. I think most people aren't looking at the big picture. Good people can disagree on this issue.

As far as Lieberman goes, his faith is sincere and refreshing, but his ridiculous crusades against video games and Hollywood smack of censorship, and that really bothers me. There are other issues too.

Honestly, I'm not feeling too hot about a lot of these candidates, save Clark and maybe Dean.

[Meph]

18. I'm confused...

I hear over and over again that pro-choice = liberal. But the two women I know that have had abortion, neither are liberal. Ones a conservative and the other is a conservative leaning independent.

[info being]

46. That's because conservatives never think that rules apply to them

Just to others. They always view themselves as the exception.

[jsw_81]

29. Compulsory pregnancy is NOT a liberal position

Modern women are not breeding mares and never will be. Understood?

[ronnykmarshall]

36. How are we getting "killed" on this issue???

The majority of Americans are pro-choice. You think for one minute if Bushie boy pushed to outlaw abortion his ass wouldn't be grass?

Sorry, but as long as the GOP chips away at Roe V. Wade I'll NEVER walk away from this issue.

[blondeatlast]

71. Outlawing abortion=absolutely loser issue.

NOBODY has the cajones to do it; besides, it would accomplish absolutely ZILCH in terms of preventing abortion.

ZILCH.

[LeahMira]

63. Really?

I think most people aren't looking at the big picture.

I think most people are indeed looking at the big picture. I wonder if you are?

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popcld.html

[arcane1]

66. "elitist, pro-abortion, anti-God leftist whackos"

you have the corporate media to thank for that nonsense

[blondeatlast]

70. Even bringing the issue up in the campaigns is disingenuous.

Abortion will NEVER be made illegal again, and it's a disingenuous campaign issue. I don't describe myself as either pro-life or pro-choice and my feelings on the issue are probably right there with most average Americans.

Show me a POTUS or SCOTUS who makes abortion illegal, and I will show you an enormous popular revolt--I mean, taking it to the streets time.

Ain't gonna happen in this lifetime.

[Dookus]

16. This MUST

be a hoax from an anti-lieberman person.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

31. Yup...

I am 99.9% positive someone is yanking our collective chain. :)

[Fovea]

17. Welcome James.

While the left is well represented at DU, there is room for the center.
And, I believe that there is room for Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Wiccan, and even the Zoroastrian, Unitarian, or Shinto.


I, as a Wiccan priest, do agree with you that our faith must inform our politics. This must be why some many Christians are split along the political divide. Certain themes in the Christian and Jewish faith council love and tolerance, certain others talk about orthodoxy and retribution. Which of these two themes is the predominant part of your character determines how you manifest your faith day to day.

Truth be known, your comment about most Christians being Republican because of abortion did strike an off note to me for two reasons.
The first may seem a bit snarky, but I think there is an important need to draw some distinction between those who *claim* the Christian religion versus those who actually practice it.

For example, I live a short drive from the Westboro Baptist Church, home of Fred Phelps.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/

His religiosity eclipses Joe, George, John, or any of the governmental figures who often times are heard in secular robes, but making sacred pronouncements. But note that I do not call him Reverend, because I feel that while he may indeed serve some power, it certainly is not divine.

Secondly, there are Christians who feel that choice, birth control, sexual morality, or orientation are not questions that are exclusively defined, or indeed always even directly addressed by faith or rather by doctrine alone.

Wiccans, such as myself, certainly disagree a great deal on many of these subjects, as it only contains a single 'thou shalt not', a proscription against harming others.

Instead, we are counseled that we will be returned three times whatever we do. So it behooves us to be good, for goodness' sake.
Our definition of good is different than yours, as one might suspect from a religion that was almost burned out of existence by the those who professed themselves Christian. They burned with zeal as well, but sadly, it was us they burned with zeal.

Please understand that I am not attacking Christianity as a religion. The faith has wonderful things to say for itself, and it adds to the moral wisdom of the species. As a memeber of a faith different from yours in basic ways, I am trying to be understanding of your support for Joe Lieberman, who often seems to represent religion as a system of social control, more than a mechanism for regaining contact with the divine.

Understand that many here question the degree with which the US should support the policies of the Likud.

We do not protest the works of the Likud because we dislike Jews, indeed, I personally venerate Mr. Rabin as a truer martyr than any poor soul who blows themselves and others to bits. Yitzak Rabin is a bodhisattva of sorts who suffered the hatred of cruel men out of his love for mankind. We protest the Israeli strikes, the intifada suicide bombings, and the Iraqi invasion out of the same source, a love for the children of the earth.

That lesson can inspire us all, not the message of Rabin's death, but the peace he learned to reach for in life. Give it a thought.

http://www.crosscircle.com/Three%20Saviors.htm

Lastly, the Democratic tradition includes a great deal of your basic socialist policy and thought. Believe it or not, socialism is not a dirty word in most of the rest of the world. But frankly, America under Bush is a fascist nation, heading toward a police state and command economy to institutionalize a new over-class.

So if one's choice of philosophical allies is FDR, and his 'socialist' new deal, or Zell Miller, whore of mammon, which sort of Democrat would you favor?

And again, welcome to DU, or as we say in my church, Merry Meet.

[Meph]

19. If the abortion issue...

Is why most christians are republicans, then the issue of big tax breaks for the rich must be the reason the other christians are liberal.

Seriously, I find kinda depressing that people will choose their political party affiliation based on one issue.

Take me for example, I'm not to hot for the notion some liberals hold that animal testing should be abolished. But I'm not going to become a conservative over that one issue. I'll just be a liberal that dissagrees with some fellow liberals on an issue then be a conservative that tends to dissagree with most of my fellow conservatives on all but a few issues.

I also find the whole angle of the black voter a bit contradictory. Most blacks vote democratic, and most blacks are christian and most blacks are pro life. Yet most christians vote conservative because they are pro life? Maybe I'm just missing your point.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. thanks for saving me the hassle of responding

Jesus reminds me of Howard Dean...he's fine but some of his followers can really be a pain in the ass!

[Toucano]

23. Right on target! Thanks.

[Cheswick2.0]

26. I am not really sure of your point here

did the original poster say anything about Howard Dean? I am not sure why you felt it nessesary to throw that gem in.

Some followers of all religions and no religions are a pain in the ass and certainly Kerry has his share of obnoxious followers.
:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

38. I know and I qualified it with SOME

Come on Ches...did I say all?

[blondeatlast]

72. HAH! So damn true!

[Lexingtonian]

24. Welcome

I am new to this board and am dismayed at all the extreme leftists. It is actually kind of scary if any of you guys got into power, no offense to any of you personally.

Well, Jesus was a radical too. And on the left, as well! In the RSoF, to which I count myself, we always have George Fox to look to as well. Spiritual freedom is a good that conservatives cannot tolerate much of, unfortunately, so we must do the needed Work for it on this side.

We are supposed to be Democrats, not communists or socialists.

About socialism... wasn't there something about a distribution of Bread and Fishes at the Sermon on the Mount? It seems to me there was a lesson in that, and it wasn't a rationalization for greed or the rights of capital holders to profit from production. And for some reason Jesus wouldn't have those moneychangers in the Temple, either. I have never heard this point raised in any church.

As a Christian, I lead an international bible study at UF, many of these international students will return to home countries or go to other countries as missionaries. In fact we had one girl from South Korea go to Afghanistan and share the Gospel.

I'm curious to what extent you consider relevant the social wreckage, exploitation, and disruption this endeavor brings about in the form it takes these days. I always wonder how people do not see how it constitutes colonialism in the spiritual realm when it is so evidently marketed as a subversion of social norms and thus a politics, and gets targetted at the least educated classes in Third World societies. I read the missionizing news parts of Christianity Today and just can't see any modern-day Albert Schweitzer as a part of it.

He is on fire for God, even more than most Christian I come across.

As it is, it's ironic how consistently Al Sharpton puts him to shame. I do recommend Abraham Joshua Heschel's major works to you, a man whose life is far greater integrity and widely held to measure up to the prophets of Israel.

In fact the abortion issue is why most Christians are Republicans.

I am sure you are aware that Jewish readings of the Hebrew Bible permit abortion and that the New Testament is silent on the subject. The source of the prohibition in 'traditional Christianity' in the United States is easy to trace backwards in time- to the pre-Christian nature/fertility worshipping religions of agriculture-practicing regions of Europe and Asia Minor, beliefs which the early Church so sadly became syncretized with. As Marcion so well demonstrates.

So I would be hesitant to declare the foes of abortion motivated by reasons truly based in Christian teachings, though there is great dignity to well-meaning desires proceeding out of attempts to conform life to the Law of Love.

[jsw_81]

27. We are a big tent

And you're welcome to be a Democrat no matter what religion you follow as long as you support church/state separation. But if you want a theocracy I suggest you look elsewhere.

[chiburb]

32. Yeah. For James, a Revival Tent. n/t

.

[HFishbine]

33. Mathew 5:9

That's pretty extreme, huh?

[rucky]

35. No offense to you personally

Just stay on your side of the tent & us Godless commie baby killers will stay on ours.

sheesh

[lumpy]

39. Lieberman is on fire for God?

Uh.. which god? My god, your god, their god... good god!!!

[chiburb]

41. I've heard of "Jews For Jesus"....

But never the reverse. Good luck with Lieberman...

[info being]

42. Use this as a learning experience

The first time you get slammed on a discussion forum can lead you in two directions:

- You never venture into a forum again
- You get called on your delusions and learn

The fact is, in this format, people point out blindsides you didn't even know you had. What you do with this is your decision. If you want a safe environmente where you can remain sure how right you are, go to church.

[tkmorris]

44. As a boy........

I used to know this kid who would take great pleasure in dropping rocks into the middle of anthills, just so he could watch the ants scurry about.

James your posts remind me a lot of that kid. He didn't seem to be acting very Christian to me and I'm sorry to say that you don't either.

[info being]

45. The first thing James can learn is....

That he needs to let go of the idea that he is superior to all of us. He needs to understand that our feelings and opinions are just as valid as his.

He does see us as ants scurrying. Brilliant point.

[FlaGranny]

76. Hello neighbor,

I live just a couple of miles north of you.

About the ants. I've been known to aggravate fire ants. I can't resist stomping my foot into a nest to see them running about with no one to bite. I don't like fire ants. ;-)

[dawn]

47. Well, I respect your faith.

Please try to respect the beliefs of others, especially those in the countries in which your missionaires preach.

Our party should be open to many views...including those on the "extreme left."

I think I probably fall into that category because I'm a member of a non-Christian faith who is uncomfortable with missionary activities.

And my husband, who is Christian, also does not believe in coercing others to believe in his faith. So he would also have issues with some of the practices of your missionary friends.

Of course, you are free to preach. And others are free to ignore your preaching, if they so wish to do so.

[Cleita]

48. Why is being a communist or socialist extreme to you?

Many religions encourage communism. It goes with the Christian concept of sharing. If you mean totalitarianism, like the Soviet version, then I agree. But some of the most progressive nations in the world are social democracies like our neighbor to the north, Canada.

[info being]

53. Good point

And don't Catholics greet each other with "Peace" during the mass? I guess they don't really take Jesus' teachings seriously...just something they perform ritualistically.

[Blue_Chill]

56. Social democracy is not socialism!!!!

Canada has extensive social programs built over a CAPITALIST economy.

[Cleita]

60. So does Sweden, but both countries are referred to

as social democracies. These are not my words but refer to governments that have social programs built over capitalistic economies. We all know that pure communism can't exist in the secular world without abuses erupting like they did in Soviet Russia.

[salin]

67. tell that to the folks around here that consider any social spending in

the us to equal "socialism". I am with you - they are very different systems - wrapping together political and economic systems. But Rush has revived the sentiment that all social spending (and thus any program that citizens pay into and that benefit citizens) is "socialist" because it is all aimed at redistributing wealth. As if someone earning 300,000 and being taxed at 35% is redistributing their entire wealth (communist would mean redistributing to relatively the same level)... and someone receiving aid for dependent children at say... 800 a month or less than 10,000 a year = communism.

You are right - they are at best social welfare programs placed atop a democratic capitalistic system (and back in the eighties we called these "mixed economiew".... but socialism and communism works so much better as scare tactic words for Rush and the other rightwing talking heads.)

[TNOE]

51. You may be right in "your world"

that is the world of the church. When I made a statement to my mother at the beginning of the war with Iraq and said "I don't know why or how anyone in the world could ever vote Republican" she replied "because I don't believe in killing little babies". I said - but it is okay to kill women and children in an unjust war??? Is it okay for us to kill "brown" people's babies - just not our own?? She had a look of shock and dismay - as she never looked at it like that - then my Dad agreed. Her "preacher" was preaching all for this war - it was the right thing, etc., etc. She used to send me tapes - which I would listen to about half way - and would write her and tell her that regardless of what any preacher said, etc. - I could never support a needless war. Saddam is not in our country, his army is not attacking our land now is navy attacking our seas - nor an airforce flying above. Bush is LYING. Well now she is very uncomfortable with the fact that it is obvious Bush lied to get this war. One thing about Baptists is that they use "fear" constantly - so was so afraid to vote for a Dem because they believed in pro-life - and instead she voted for a pro-death president whom she has come to be afraid just might be the anti-christ.

I read a report once where Right wing conservative women have many MORE abortions than Democratic women. Why? Because right wing women tend to be in a man's world - where a pregnancy just wouldn't fit in with her career aspirations. I read that report many years ago.

Blacks don't have as many abortions as white women - simply for the fact that they CAN'T AFFORD THEM. I work with many many black women who drink, do drugs, fall, try all kinds of things in order to abort because they don't have the $500. What this does - is bring many more special needs children into the world. And that is a fact.

You are very misguided. I feel so sorry for my mother due to all her confusion - she is so afraid now in her old age she is going to go to hell - because she did what she thought was "right" - what the church told her - and now she is so afraid because she thinks she voted for the anti-christ and is afraid she's going to go to hell for that too. I suggest an open mind and to learn to think for yourself more - or get out in the real world and experience more.

[camero]

55. Don't be fooled by the Anti-Christ

This link is fascinating reading. I been at it for a week now and still going. I would advise ya to look at it.

http://www.samliquidation.com/falsechrist2.htm

it takes a swipe at alot of politicians and churches. Quite rightfully.

[Blue_Chill]

57. hey jamesarg, next time you "return"

how about sticking around, you aren't helping the conditions between religious and not here on DU. You are throwing gas on the flames and then faking like you are a nice guy.

Unless you are willing to back your statements up, don't "return" again. kthx.

[TNOE]

58. Ah, he's just trying to

save some souls..... in his spare time I'm sure. Those be Democrat souls he be tryin to save.

[LeahMira]

59. Hello, James.

We are supposed to be Democrats, not communists or socialists.

As a Christian, you must be aware of the fact that Jesus owned nothing but the clothes on his back, which tradition says were given him by his mother. When he sent the apostles out to spread the gospel, he told them to also take nothing with them, but to depend for their needs on the generosity of the people to whom they would preach. In fact, when a young man came to Jesus asking to be permitted to follow him, Jesus told the young man to sell all he owned and give the money to the poor. The gospels tell us that Jesus was sad when the young man could not bring himself to do that. Quite a contrast to the "Ownership Society" that Bush touts proudly, don't you think? Actually, Jesus' teachings sound a whole lot like both socialism and communism to me. What do you think?

I am currently interning for Senator Lieberman's presidential campaign, and I find his faith very refreshing. .... In fact the abortion issue is why most Christians are Republicans.

No doubt you are correct. In fact, like Senator Lieberman (and Jesus), I am also Jewish. Judaism is cautious about abortion and we believe that it should not be a decision that is made lightly. At the same time, we believe that when a woman's life is threatened by a pregnancy, she is obliged to seek an abortion. We also believe that in a case where the well-being of her family would be compromised by another child, she is likewise obliged to seek an abortion. As you can imagine, the recent late term abortion ban, which does not make exception for the life of the woman, is contrary to Jewish teachings. When President Bush signed that bill into law, he took away the religious freedom of thousands of American Jewish women and their families. Believe me, I do not take that insult lightly.

I think Senator Lieberman is a good person, and I would like to have seen him as Vice-President. There are other candidates now running that I prefer as Presidential candidates, but should Senator Lieberman get the nod from the Democratic Party, I see no reason not to vote for him at this time. He is a basically decent individual. At the same time, I'm sure that his Jewish beliefs will instruct him to work to repeal the late term abortion ban (if that hasn't come about already before 2005), and to support Roe v. Wade without any of the limitations that have been put on to it by Christians. I'm quite convinced that Jesus, who lived and died a devout, practicing Jew, would do no less. What do you think?

[salin]

61. You say the party should be open to many views (I agree)

after you say that you find liberal ideas to be equal to socialism and communism and folks who harbor them are frightening and by extension... shouldn't be part of the party (because one might get elected to an office somewhere). Don't you find these sentiments a tad contradictory?

[leesa]

62. Yeah, it's too bad Jesus was such an extreme leftist too

Remember, this is the guy you say you are aligned with. Funny, isn't it? You are an adherent of the old testament, I believe, which doesn't have much to do with Jesus' teachings. That's probably why you identify with Lieberman so much. The tribal warring of the old testament goes on and on and on. Time to progress and let the old social issues of thousands of years ago die out. Wasn't that Jesus' message? I don't think the fundamentalist christian teachings have anything to do with Jesus, just self-righteousness and bigotry.

[blondeatlast]

75. The New Testament challenges believers to walk the walk, not

just talk the talk. That is why it is so largely ignored by the wackos.

[Malva Zebrina]

80. no it doesn't

.

[blondeatlast]

74. HIT 'N RUN, Part the Second. James, as a longtime God defender

in DU, I gotta tell you that I don't think you have the cajones for it. Either stick around and sharpen your skills or I'll join my non-Christian pals in bringing you down.

Face the facts here: I can't convince the non-believers here, nor do I try (I simply defend my right to believe in God), but I enjoy the mental boxing matches. I've got the brains, education (lots of Bible education without a dogma attached), and experience.

Even GDSmooth is no place for a rookie in the God wars.


To paraphrase an unmentionable entity: BRING 'EM (yourself) ON!

[RandomKoolzip]

78. This whole thread is hilarious.

There's about 75 pieces of response to what is obviously drive-by flamebait. It's obvious to me from reading the original post the first time that Jimmy didn't want a dialogue, he just wanted to throw paint from a speeding car. Giving him attention is just playing right into his hands. I read this back when it had 12 replies, and now that it has 75, it's kind of sad.....

You guys just had a pretty large shock of wool pulled over your eyes. The mods oughta delete this thread, the job of disrupting GD has been accomplished.

[Malva Zebrina]

81. agreed and proselytizing should not be allowed

we are not here to hear sermons

[blondeatlast]

92. Absolutely agreed.

[Blue Gardener]

84. Agreed

There is a definite pattern emerging with this guy. Can't seem to stick around long enough to support his position, but is pretty good at getting everyone else riled up.

[Malva Zebrina]

79. well James, I never knew that DU was a vehicle for

your Christian proselytizing.

As an atheist I find that insulting, and I think these types of proselytizing threads should be entirely deleted. This is extremely offensive. Your god is a little fairy tale, imo and actually is a god that was invented by a compilation of other invented gods before him.

[zeemike]

82. There is no shame here for DU

The shame is on Jimmy who has not the courage of conviction of Jesus to respond when so many are willing to talk to him.
It leaves me only to conclude that he is not really a follower of Jesus but probably a follower of someone like Jerry Faldwell who is also a coward when it comes to real debate on Christian values.
I am a follower of Jesus that does not shrink from debate because I really believe in the teachings of Jesus and sense James has been schooled in religion my sense is that he does not.

[Malva Zebrina]

83. tnat's fine, but what teachings are you believeing in

we have come this far without the thread being locked, so let's go for the whole thing.

What teachings? What teachings that have not been around since before Jesus ever was born to a Jewish, very Jewish, mother and who was Jew himself and who was NOT a Christian. What were his teachings--from his mouth only and what proof is there that he actually said the things that have been reported by very prejuidicial spin doctors who wrote the stories that happened to be "selected" three hundred years later from the humdreds of writings by the followers of the NEW religion after the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans., by patriarchal political hierophants wanting to gain power and , also money by propagating this fairy tale.

[blondeatlast]

86. There is no proof of anything, and that is fine by me. I'm at peace

with my beliefs, I hope that you are with yours. I have no desire to proselytize to anyone; I only defend my RIGHT (granted by the Constitution) to believe.

And my right to knock a little sense, secular or other wise, into the clown OP.

Calling it a fairy tale is a bit over the top. It's great literature if nothing else.

[Malva Zebrina]

89. I strongly disagree

it is not "great literature" at all. It is a story that has been interpreted and has been translated many many times over.

This to me is not "great literature at all but is a total spin job perpetrated upon vulnerable people who do not question-that is the myth that has been attached in order to get people to disregard the inconsistencies and the actual hatreds contained in the bible. And that is what I believe.

To me the bible is a badly written fairy tale like, atrocity and an assault on the intelligence of clear thinking people.

So, you believe, and I believe not--no one is and can be proven to be right or wrong here.

[blondeatlast]

91. So we come to a meeting of the minds. I respect your beliefs, I only

ask that you respect mine.

The OP was flamebait and look what it's done--gone way off the original topic and the OP is nowhere to be found.

And I fell for it.

[Malva Zebrina]

95. I know j, I see it now, and I was vulnerable also

willing to shake hands in a loving truce.

[zeemike]

90. Look. Just forget the bible

Just take the words Jesus spoke according to Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and for get the argument that questions whether it was not just all made up. And tell me which statement by Jesus does not make sense to you or seems to conform to some right wing agenda.
I can tell you right now that there is nothing for you as an atheist or agnostic that you should worry about. Jesus condemned no one but the hypocrites and his teachings are sound on all social issues.
And I challenge anyone to use the words of Jesus against him. I have read the whole bible thoroughly and I understand the story unlike many on both sides.

[blondeatlast]

85. Yep--and we play right into his hands. I did it too.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. Threads with less inflammatory statements in the opening post were locked

I am new to this board and am dismayed at all the extreme leftists. It is actually kind of scarry if any of you guys got into power, no offense to any of you personally. We are supposed to be Democrats, not communists or socialists.

Frankly the linguistics are entirely RUSHIAN leading me to doubt that you are interning for any Democratic candidate.

[blondeatlast]

88. True enough; and I wish I hadn't fallen in.

I've noticed the God war threads are nearly always started by relative newcomers' yet I took the bait again and am feeling more than a little anger at a DU friend.

What a Bush the OP is.

[mmonk]

93. jamesarg

Alot of born agains are repubs. Any chance you can sway them over to our side in the general election? We like peace like Jesus would like. We like economic justice like Jesus would like. Convince some that are repubs to switch.

[Wapsie B]

94. Well...........

since jimmy seems to not want to have any real discussion here, this angry Missouri Lutheran is putting this thread on hide.

[Moderator]

96. Locking.

The moderators have discussed this thread at length, and we feel that it is highly inflammatory. I'm going to lock this now.

Thanks,
DU Moderator