LOTR a lesson for dems?

[Atman]

I finally say it last night. Two things struck me...first, George Lucas totally ripped off everything in Star Wars from LOTR. I knew there was a lot of that, but I had never made it through the third book, and didn't realize just how much.

Second...and this is the lesson for dems part...It is not the kings and the powerful that win the battles, it is the little guys. In this case, it was the tiny little hobbits with no chance in hell that persevered and finally saved the world. Same with us dems. It won't be Al Gore or Even Wesley Clark that saves us from the evil empire. It will be our own steadfast determination to make it to the top of the flaming mountain of hot spewing molten republican hate.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

[kalian]

1. Never knew that Lucas stole the idea from LOTR....

:shrug: That's news to me. I thought he made it WWII in space so
to speak.
Anyways...yeah, its the little guys that made the difference BUT
the big guys were the ones that gave them their chance. But also
remember that the little guys, the Hobbits, were like children...
pure of soul...innocent. Thus, they were able to go beyond what the
ring offered, i.e., absolute and corrupt power.

[Bandit]

2. I know the US is starting to resemble Mordor more than the shire.

:shrug: I think it is too late for a hobbit to rescue us all.

[foo_bar]

3. a true original

Phoebe: Until Birnam Wood come to Dunsinane, Macbeth shall never vanquish'd be.
Macbeth: Haha... oh crap! Ents!

But seriously, Bush isn't Sauron. He's Saruman in The Scouring of the Shire.

[kalian]

4. That's correct, Bush is Saruman....but then...who is Sauron...?

:shrug:

[foo_bar]

5. Sauron is CBS

aka "the lidless eye"

[kalian]

6. Oh....I thought it had something to do with the "Illuminati"...

:eyes:

[foo_bar]

9. ok Lyndon LaRouche == Lady of Lothlorien

[Tansy_Gold]

7. LOTR not original at all.

That doesn't mean it's not good or not valuable. But "The Quest" tale is as old as tale-telling.

There is much of the Bible in LOTR, but much of the Bible was stolen from earlier myths, too.

do some research before you hurl accusations: Joseph Campbell, Lin Carter, Chris Vogler and many others have written volumes on the history and theory of quest literature.

Unless, of course, you're only talking about the MOVIE. . . . .

[Atman]

13. Oh, definitely!

The elephants with the troops on back...I thought I was watching Luke take on the AT ATs! And the triumphant scene at the end! Man, put buns on Pippin's hair! It was the closing scene to the original Star Wars. Ghandalf is Obi Wan. There was sooo much throughout the entire 9 1/2 hours of LOTR I can't even recall half of it!

[Selwynn]

17. not at all, eh? What a pantload...

Yeah right.

JRR Tolkien of course did not invent a band new style of literature in his work. That is just an obvious truism. However, the specific of Tolkien's content within the particular broad literary genre was unique and revolutionary at the time, which is why it was so successful.

Of course a "quest" tale is as old as tale telling - that's not news to anyone. However a story of the sheer scope and magnitude of Tolkien's had never been done before in the realm of fantasy/mythology. Tolkien utterly revolutionized the way fantasy stories are written. Tolkien defined and created so many things that have now become a standard part of nearly any fantasy story telling. His themes in the book are so gripping and complicated that his work rises beyond pop culture and becomes a classic work of literature. He created an original world, with an complete and exhaustive history, and THAT is his legacy, and that IS original - no one had created a story that brought a world to life with the sheer tonnage of detail, history and depth that Tolkien breathed into Middle earth.

I understand what you're saying - of course Tolkien didn't invent some kind of strange new kind of story. He wrote an epic. But in the writing of that epic, he transcended old boundaries and managed to contribute something radically fresh and new in scope, depth and content. That is why the Lord of the Rings is the most read book in the world, second to the Bible. That is why Lord of the Rings is called the book of the century.

I guess you're just excited about the fact that all great works build on the tradition of their times. So, I guess congratulations on perceiving that quite obvious truism. But the more important thing to realize is that the true masterpieces of our age do not just build on legacy and tried and true traditions - they transcend them. Tolkien succeeded in doing that, and the world overwhelmingly agrees on that fact.

There is plenty, plenty, plenty in Tolkien that is very original to Tolkien, including entire languages, histories, calendars, even races. But of course Tolkien desired to create a true British mythology, and in that endeavor of course he - like any other good author out there - drew on a long and rich tradition of storytelling as his foundation... and then transcended that foundation thoroughly and created a new masterpiece.

[Beaker]

8. George Lucas ripped-off 'Star Wars' from LOTR????

please explain...?
Because I sure don't see it.
BUT- Tolkien "ripped off" a lot of LOTR(especially Gandalf) from Finnish mythology, and the Kalevala.

[skjpm]

10. actually, it was Gollum who saved the world

Frodo was clinging to the Ring at the end. The Ring was only destroyed because Gollum bit it off his finger. The point is that even the weakest and most sinful have a part to play, whether they intend it or not, and we should always choose mercy, even when it is most undeserved.

[Selwynn]

18. Yeah, a lesson a lot of people around here could really use..

[Touchdown]

20. Hey now!

Don't spoil it for those who haven't read the book or seen the movies. Come on!

[Paragon]

11. I'm sure freepers could find similar parallels.

Fighting "evil", making war, etc. etc. - although that human/elf interracial dating thing probably cheeses them off. :silly:

It's just a grand old story. Leave it at that and enjoy it as such.

[kentuck]

12. Actually, many people think this was the intent of Tolkien....

to make just such a political statement. War vs Peace. Good vs Evil.

[slappypan]

14. Star Wars

Much of the plot of Star Wars was lifted from an old samurai movie called Hidden Fortress. Other bits do seem to be taken from LOTR and old Westerns like The Searchers. I have always thought it was interesting how the Star Wars series became more "fascist" as it went on — in the first movie, it seems like anyone with talent and dedication can learn to use the Force, even if they come from a humble background, but by the later movies it seems to be a strictly hereditary ability and not a spiritual discipline.

[Cannikin]

15. Rush keeps referencing LOTR...

And saying how 'liberals' can learn from it. He's usually referring to the military aspect, but its SO obvious he hasnt seen it or knows anything about it.
Lets see, Rush. It teaches respect for nature (the trees turn on you when they get cut down!) It teaches that a weak, small minority can overcome the most powerful evil. It teaches us to fight for our freedom or otherwise be ruled by an evil supreme leader.
Rush, I think 'liberals' have an excellent grasp of LOTR. Leave it to the ultra-right wing to only pick out the war and military components and leave out all the rest.
Rush then refers several times to the evil 'Soran' who is trying to take over.
Poor Rush. Poor, sad, closed minded, drug addicted Rush.

[kentuck]

16. The shock and awe of the monsters of war hurling giant boulders...

with their superior catapults. Yes, there is a lesson there but I do not see the same one that Rush sees. The most powerful army did not win.

[Lisa]

19. Lucas used Joseph Campbell's mythology book "Hero with a Thousand Faces"

I remember that he talked quite a bit about it in interviews at the time (late 1970s). And Tolkien's intention with the Middle Earth sagas was to draw attention to Northern European mythology -- he used a lot of the themes from it (dwarves, magic rings, etc. are quite visible in the Germanic myths highlighted by Wagner, for example). Tolkien stated that he was repulsed by the Nazi attempt to hijack Germanic mythology as propaganda, and his instinct was to reclaim it as a source of moral inspiration.


So no wonder that there is a lot of overlap. I don't think Lucas meant to copy the trilogy in particular ... but since he and Tolkien were working along similar directions, like many other fantasy storytellers, the same situations would tend to arise.

Authors prior to Tolkien tried to write heroic fantasy, but I think one reason why he remains so popular today is that he managed to rework the stories for the 20th century. As a veteran of WWI, it's understandable that he made ordinary people (the hobbits) the real protagonists, because those were the ones who showed the most heroism to him. (The Romantic writers of the 19th century would likely have put the focus on Aragorn and the other nobles.)

As you say, "the little guys" emerge as the heroes, and as the century progressed, the civil rights and peace movements emphasized this. The twist at the end which resonates with a lot of people
***(don't read this if you haven't seen/read the story and want to save it for later!)***




is that it's not physical strength or moral courage that saves the world, in the end -- which would have been the standard ending for most mythological stories.

Frodo actually fails. He doesn't throw the Ring into the fire. The quest only succeeds because of PITY -- he didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance (and ample reason to). Gandalf said as much, in the first book, when he reprimands Frodo for wishing that Bilbo had killed Gollum earlier.

And my dad pointed out to me recently that Sam also decided to spare Gollum ... as did Aragorn (even though, I seem to recall, Gollum gave him a painful bite!).

So an apparently-weak and softhearted decision saves the world. I think Tolkien was trying to warn us ... he saw the way things were headed (e.g. innocent civilians being bombed because "Hitler is an evil dictator and must be punished"). Today we are being urged to withhold mercy from wrongdoers and deal out vengeance ... one can't even question US foreign policy without being accused of betraying the dead of 9/11.

Not to say Tolkien was some kind of psychic, but he figured out that eventually the West would end up fighting the type of war that can't be won by military force -- only by social justice, and the type of actions that would seem totally naive and foolish to the standard "eye-for-an-eye" perspective.

p.s. judging by the commentary on DU over the past 3 years, the trilogy has taken on a deep significance in terms of inspiring people to make the world a better place. I'd say Tolkien succeeded in writing a story that would serve as a modern-day myth.

[Bandit]

22. "So an apparently-weak and softhearted decision saves the world."

Not a "Bleeding Heart Liberal". Oh heaven forbid. Compassion in it's true form saves the world. Who'd ever thunk it?

[maggrwaggr]

21. Not another mysterious acronym on DU!! LOTR?

Lauhing Out Tongue Rolling?

Why not spell this stuff out, guys?

By the way, fundies also love Lord of the Rings.