Clark: "You cannot lie" How refreshing!

[robbedvoter]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/12/15/clark/index_np.html
Speaking by cellphone as he drove from the Little Rock airport to his Arkansas home, he criticized Dean for an answer he gave at the Democratic debate in New Hampshire on Dec. 9 to a question about whether it was ever acceptable for a president to lie to the American public. (Dean, who was clearly taken aback by the question, had answered: "I can't think of any circumstances, with the possible exception of some national security matter that would -- if some piece of information were put out that would endanger American lives or some circumstances under which people's lives would be in danger or something of that sort.")

"I don't believe you should lie in foreign affairs," Clark said. "You can't lie as a government. You can refuse to answer a question. You can go to the press privately and say please don't print this for national security reasons. You cannot lie.

[Guaranteed]

1. Mmmm....I dunno....

I think Dean is right on this one. There are some things, though they are very few, that we shouldn't know about. We don't want people to start panicking, you know? That never helps a situation, no matter what it is.

[robbedvoter]

9. yeay! let's replace a liar with..another liar! This way the shock won't

harm the numbed minds out there. When Ted Olson was making the case for lying last year 9or 2001?) in front of SCOTUS, DU-ers were steaming. But of course, all good comes from Dean - even his lies are healing! Praise the Dean!

[TLM]

44. Oh good god you people are really getting desperate...

Anybody who says they would not be willing to lie for reasons of national security... is lying.

Anybody who has been in the military with a command or worked in the pentagon, like Clark, knows damn well how many cover stories and half truths are used to protect national security secrets everyday.


I respect that Dean is honest about the fact that sometimes natinal security does require lies to keep critical information secret.

For Clark to act as if he'd never lie is just a handjob.

[Jerseycoa]

11. You can say

"I won't talk about for reasons of national security" or whatever. A president should not lie is what Clark is saying. Not that a president should tell state secrets.

:dem:

[Guaranteed]

13. Alright...so what is Dean saying there?

And why is Clark criticizing him for it?


On edit: Awww....I'm seeing the difference here- the difference between withholding information and purposeful deception. Alright. Still, though, I think Dean still has a point that, if absolutely necessary (and NOT Bush's "absolutely necessary"), there may come a point where you have to actually LIE to people.

[Guaranteed]

14. Dupe

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

18. Dean's stupid remark will be a Republican commercial, have no doubt

It was a purposefully vague question meant to catch Dean off guard, and he was. It worked perfectly, just like Ted Cophole wanted it too, and now it will be used as a campaign commercial if Dean wins the nomination.

[TLM]

45. Oh I'm sure the GOP won;t have to raise a finger...

Because there are some people who claim to be democrats who clearly will do the GOP's work for them.

[TorchTheWitch]

21. The question was could you lie to the American PUBLIC

I think Dean is right on this one. There are some things, though they are very few, that we shouldn't know about.

That's why Clark said you should keep it out of the press by saying it's a national security matter. You don't LIE to the public.

We don't want people to start panicking, you know? That never helps a situation, no matter what it is.

Then don't say anything to the public that would make them panic. You don't LIE to the public.

Dean made a major mistake on that one. Take for example when Bush lied to the people of NYC who were concerned about the air quality when the towers fell. He lied and said the air quality was just dandy. He probably said that because he didn't want to cause a panic. What he should have said was there was a problem with air quality, and people should take certain measures to guard themselves against adverse effects that may be caused by that, and go on to tell them what they could do to protect themselves mindful that he wasn't telling them just how bad it was (in that way, he could tell them how to protect themselves according to how bad the situation was but without telling them how bad it was to avoid a panic). He should not have LIED and said the air quality was fine.

National security matters are on a need to know basis as far as the public is concerned anyway. If the public has a need to know, then tell them the truth.

(On edit: them thar stinkin itallics again)

[moz4prez]

24. DUPE

woe is dial-up

[moz4prez]

25. no, no, i think you've got it all wrong

there's a difference between withholding information and distorting or fabricating information. Clark is saying that while he would withhold information if he felt it necessary for whatever reasons, he would not go so far as to Make Stuff Up or Twist information for "nat'l security purposes"

I think that's agreeable enough.

[moz4prez]

26. oh wait

looks like you don't Have It All Wrong

bully for you! :)

[Eloriel]

34. Here's one example:

Is Valerie Plame a CIA agent?

Not the kind of thing that works with a 'No comment" type answer.

There are probably an infinite number of types of questions having to do with national security that might need to be answered with a lie in order to protect lives and national security.

The general knows this and has in all probability lied himself for just that very reason. Or maybe he thinks he hasn't -- that he has just evaded the truth, and that that counts as full out honesty.

[DemCam]

2. We can take it to the bank

If we truly want to elect someone who takes his word as his bond...this is the man.

In a way...this makes Wes Clark the true outsider...even if he rose thorugh the ranks of one of our biggest established bureaucacies...the military. It is so ironic, now that our outsider candidate is becoming our insider candidate.

Politics is the most fascinating game in town.

As Kristofferson said...bless him..."listen to what he says. He is a prayer answered."

He isn't flashy, except for the big smile...and he isn't loud. But he knows how to plan and he knows where the buck stops.

[On the Road]

3. Well, Clark Wouldn't Keep That Promise Any More Than Carter Could

Any president would lie to the public to protect American lives. The question is what else they would else they would lie about.

This is not a new issue. In the 19th century, there was a schism in the Baptist church over the hypothetical question: "If you were captured by Indians and they asked you which direction your wife and children had run, would you tell them the truth?" Those who said yes were the Truth-Telling Baptists, those who did not were the Lying Baptists.

Clark is claiming to be a Truth-Telling Baptist; Dean is admitting to be a Lying Baptist.

[TorchTheWitch]

29. how do you protect the public by lying to them?

Any president would lie to the public to protect American lives.

You know if you replaced the word "American" in that sentence with "Soviet" that's exactly what the Soviets told their people and we know how misinformed the Soviet people were.

The question is what else they would else they would lie about.

If a president lies once to the American public regardless of what it's about, he'll never be trusted on anything he says again. Eventually, truth comes out.

This is not a new issue. In the 19th century, there was a schism in the Baptist church over the hypothetical question: "If you were captured by Indians and they asked you which direction your wife and children had run, would you tell them the truth?" Those who said yes were the Truth-Telling Baptists, those who did not were the Lying Baptists.

Clark is claiming to be a Truth-Telling Baptist; Dean is admitting to be a Lying Baptist.

Except that the President is never going to be in a situation where he has to choose between torture and lying to the public. It's a good hypothetical though, it just doesn't fit this situation.

Interesting that with the hypothetical, the better man would have sacrificed himself to torture in order save his family (and to the American public the man that sacrifices himself to save his family is a Hero while the man that puts his family in danger is a Coward)... Rove would make sure that point got out. Essentially, the president is the caretaker of the American public... it's the job of the president to keep the public safe.

[Jack_Dawson]

4. Clark's right - again

Guy tells it like it is. He's our only shot at beating Bushie. The sooner everyone's on board, the better our chances.

[Patriot_Spear]

5. A Pentagon General vowing not to lie...?

Anything's possible I guess. Looks like PT Barnum was right.

[KittyWampus]

23. Liberals Falling In Line Behind Dean... Will Wonders Never Cease

:)

[Patriot_Spear]

30. US Army 1984-90; Since that smear didn't work, try another...

19D Cavalry Scout. Your turn Hero.

[KittyWampus]

50. Toilet Cleaner, Landscape Gardner, Artist 1980-90

WTF does your having been a Cavalry Scout have to do with the price of tea in China?

All the men on both sides of my family are military men... and weren't liars...

maybe you are just projecting your own devious behavior in the military on others....

Any YOU are the one engaging in Smear tactics...

that must be why God invented the ignore function here.

[Patriot_Spear]

55. I'm used to getting slammed as a 'librul' from wingnuts...

Your use of the word as a pergorative was a bit surprising.

Feel free to 'ingore'- you'll be using it a lot if you keep using 'liberal' like an accusation.

[madfloridian]

6. Disagree. There are times.

I would think that would be the very hardest decision leaders had to make. If something came up like that it would be an awful burden.
A family member was once in a position like that, he knew things we couldn't. It is a terrible burden.

[Jim Sagle]

7. Clark's lying.

[windansea]

22. heh heh

how pithy and true! Look into my big unblinking eyes and believe I will never lie to you

[Myra]

8. I think this is a classic "gotcha" question, and not to be taken seriously

Bet they don't ask Bush the same thing...
That'd be so awkward.

[robbedvoter]

The question was "gotcha" - the answer was crappy.I was yelling: "Never!"

I showed how Clark would have answered it. Of course the Kool-Aid gang loves theirs. No surprises here. "Liar is better. You lie! So there.

[Jerseycoa]

15. Oh God

Is this another thread stemming from another thread stemming from another thread with no link to the previous thread? I can't get off the first page today trying to figure out what everybody's talking about. x(

:dem:

[robbedvoter]

16. I posted this on the Salon article thread. It was burried in the "Whaaa!

not our VP? How dares he???" so I thought it deserved its own thread.

[KG]

10. goverment lie. presidents lie.

they all do. and clark would have to also.

[TorchTheWitch]

51. Bush would kiss you if he heard you say that

goverment lie. presidents lie. they all do. and clark would have to also.

Ok, so we should all just accept that governments and presidents are just lying liars and go about our business. The "and Clark would have to also" is a real kicker... not only is it ok for governments and presidents to lie, they HAVE to... it's their sacred duty to lie. Why must they lie? Because it's part and parcel of the job... can't have any truth going on when it's far more important to maintain the status quo.



:wtf:

I truly cannot believe my eyes sometimes when I read things in here.

[Bread and Circus]

12. good for Clark and bad for Dean...

This is yet another example of Dean proving he doesn't
know what the hell he is talking about a lot of the time.

Like I said before, when Dean isn't rehearsed, he's in trouble.

[Donna Zen]

17. Un-f#*kingbelievable

We all accept that for national security reasons there are times when the government withholds information. But lying? That's lying that people on this thread are currently endorsing. Lying?

Lying governments are what got you into this fucking mess to begin with...or did you forget oh so conveniently?

There is a difference between secrets and lies. And for those who jump to conclusion that Clark would lie. On what grounds do you make your assumption? Can Clark keep secrets for national security reasons? Of course.

I believe many of the anti-Clarkers just make shit up. If you had been doing any reading or listening, you would know without any doubt, that Clark would not lie to the American people. Period! The very thing that many here despise him for, his military service, includes his years at West Point. Clark is an absolute straight arrow who lives by the honor system.

Would Dean lie to us? Well, since he has already told us he would, then would a lie be a lie? Think of it as the Iago logic for truth telling.

[Patriot_Spear]

19. I'm just amazed at Clark's glaring hypocrisy...

Pentagon Gen. Wesley Clark exhorts the evils of lying- simply amazing.

[Donna Zen]

20. In case you have forgotten

The Pentagon--Shelton, Cohen,--etc---didn't like Wesley Clark. They wanted him on their team because he was brilliant, but he also told them the what they didn't want to hear. They called it "sharp elbows."

Hating the Pentagon doesn't trasfer to Clark would lie.

[Patriot_Spear]

27. Have you ever been in the military?

I have. Above Captain, rank becomes very political- and if you're trying to tell me Wesley Clark didn't play the game (which includs lying and subterfuge)- I find that very hard to believe.

[TorchTheWitch]

33. well, well

I have. Above Captain, rank becomes very political- and if you're trying to tell me Wesley Clark didn't play the game (which includs lying and subterfuge)- I find that very hard to believe.

You just called my father, three of my uncles and one of my brothers liars who couldn't get promoted based on their own merits, which I find extremely insulting especially since you have no idea what their character is like, and I assure you, none of my family members did such things for a step up the ladder and complained bitterly about the assholes that did because they couldn't do it on their own merits.

In case you weren't aware, Clark wasn't particularly well liked at the Pentagon by a lot of the higher-ups, and one of those reasons was because he refused to play the game... those who have to cheat to succeed usually dislike the ones that DON'T have to in order to reach the same or higher level because it glaringly points out the cheater's own insufficiencies.

Yes indeed, a lot of people in the military do use lies and subterfuge to get promoted, but the ones with INTEGRITY do not. Since you seem to believe that lies and subterfuge for advancement are standard operating procedure, it certainly looks like you believe it's ok.

[Patriot_Spear]

35. Maybe I read it wrong- you made my point for me.

So you dad couldn't get promoted because he wouldn't play the game, which is my point; to advance you have to be willing to do some unsavory things at times.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. I don't fault esley for it, I just don't buy the boyscout routine.

Nothing personal.

[TorchTheWitch]

46. no, i think you missed my point

So you dad couldn't get promoted because he wouldn't play the game, which is my point; to advance you have to be willing to do some unsavory things at times.

That's pretty amusing since my father had quite a high rank and worked at the Pentagon towards the end of his military career (although seeing that he died only a couple of years after retiring from the military, essentially, the military was his career). One of my uncles is also highly ranked and is still at the Pentagon, although I think he'd like to retire soon... good thing because he's a heart attack or stroke waiting to happen (you should HEAR some of the things he says about you-know-who and you-know-who). My dad knew Clark and held him in higher regard then anyone else outside his own family. I imagine my uncle knows him too, but he's never mentioned that to me... interesting note, I don't believe he's voting for Bush this time around (YES! High-Five!), and he's a Repub (not technically, of course, but you know what I mean).

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is. I don't fault Wesley for it, I just don't buy the boyscout routine.

Now my military family members are boyscouts presumed to be liars... so, between the two of us, you know the level of integrity and honor of my military family members, whom you don't know, better then I do. I'm really trying to find a shred of logic in that... nope, not there.

People in the military who have exceptional qualifications that would make them a whopping bundle plus cushy benefits if they left the military and applied those qualifications in the business world yet chose to stay in the military for a fraction of the pay and average benefits don't need to lie and cheat to move through the ranks because if they had to, they would have left the military. Big money and cushy comforts are damn hard to pass up. To sacrifice those juicy plums for only a decent salary and have to move your family almost every year is the mark of true dedication to service.

My father could have made a fortune in chemical engineering outside of the military, and we could have lived in a mansion, I could have had my own pony *sigh*, we could have had a swimming pool, a maid, slick cars... ugh. But he gave that all up knowing what he was giving up to serve instead, and he never once regretted it (although there's sure been a lot of times that I did... I REALLY wanted my own pony). All of my other military family members could have done FAR better financially outside of the military, but they chose to serve instead.

I agree that there is major politicing among the higher ranks and a whole lot of swindling for promotions, however, although the swindlers may be in the majority, there sure as hell are honest high ranking folks with integrity that don't and won't play that game, and my military family members sure aren't the only ones. Yes, it's easier to jump through ranks when you cheat, but not everyone is a cheater (although the cheaters are usually the first ones to claim you have to cheat... puts a bandaid on the ole conscience). The favorite meme of a cheater in anything is "everybody does it".

Incidently, what was/is your highest rank in the military?


*Note to Self: Do not make toast in that cheap crappy toaster that has no clue when the bread has morphed into toast and because of that lack of cluelessness continues to cook bread for all eternity while you are fiddling on the computer having totally forgotten the fact that you are making toast.

[Eloriel]

39. If he was at the Pentagon he LIVED lies

all the damn time. Oyr whole foreign policy effort -- and that includes defense apparatus-- has been almost nothing BUT lies for decades now. Give me a fucking break.

[TorchTheWitch]

49. thanks

Thank you for informing me that my dad and one of my uncles lives lies (except my dad is dead now so in his case it would be "lived" lies) although you don't know them or their level of integrity and honor. Yes, there are people at the Pentagon that don't live lies or even snack on them, but I can assure you none of them are going to let you know what they say and do there in order for you to judge whether or not they are lying. National security is not your business, so you are in no position to judge that everyone there lives lies.

My uncle who is currently at the Pentagon is no liar although I agree that the level of Pentagon shananigans is at it's highest point ever. Yes, there is an exceptional amount of liars, cheaters, theives, dolts, fuck-ups, windbags and assholes, and it's making it a lot harder for the decent folk to not cut and run. My uncle is contemplating retirement because of this administration (if he doesn't drop dead of a stress related heart attack first) and is not voting for Bush this time around (and he's a Repub to his bones).

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. When has Wes ever lied?

The guy is a man of HONOR and INTEGRITY. I do not doubt for one minute that he does not lie. He says what he means.....why would he have to lie? I fthere's something of National Security I KNOW he would just SAY that..."It's a matter of National Security and I cannot talk about it." Very simple....honesty comes easily to people with integrity.

[Patriot_Spear]

32. Clarify for me please- You're saying Wesley Clark has never lied?

Ever? Is that what you're saying?

Honestly, I like Clark, but this cult like worship is too much. he puts his pants on one leg at a time and yes, he has probably lied at least once.

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. I'm sorry,

but you said...I'm just amazed at Clark's glaring hypocrisy...


Pentagon Gen. Wesley Clark exhorts the evils of lying- simply amazing.

And I asked you ...When did he lie?

I think he's an honorable man. I trust him. JMCPO

No, I don't think he's NEVER lied. I'm sure he lied to his mom or dad about SOMETHING. :7 You're remark made it sound like he was a pathological liar..... like the mindless wonder in the WH.

[Patriot_Spear]

37. No, I just expected more candor and less theatrics from Clark...

Why the 'Washington and the Cherry Tree' routine? Why not just say, 'I think honesty with the public creates less problems down the road'.

That's all.

[TeacherCreature]

28. You've changed your avatar

Aren't you supporting Clark anymore?

It was a lame question, why is Clark commenting on this now?

[TorchTheWitch]

52. now?

Who said he just made those comments now? He was asked and he answered. Salon put up the article when it felt like it.

[ThomWV]

38. In Their Own Words

Take a look at Sir David Frost's interview excerpts with Jimmy Carter to see what he had to say about lieing as President. First he tells us that he never did - and he didn't blink an eye or hesitate a nanosecond, then that he was never called upon to, and third is for you to go hear for yourself. I'm not saying that out of spite, its because I can't remember the third part of the answer for the life of me.

Old age sucks.

Thom

[SahaleArm]

40. Withholding information for National Security? Yes. Lying? No.

That's the proper answer, you certainly don't lie for the sake of National Security.

[Donna Zen]

41. Diplo-speak

I suppose all of the candidates, even Sharpton will resort to the shades of gray language that can effectively say nothing rather than something they will regret.

So...now we've reached the bottom rung of hell; Democrats up holding the tenet of lying to the people. I reject that notion, and am appalled that it is being promoted and defended.

[SahaleArm]

42. You haven't drank the Kool-Aid n/t

[Donna Zen]

47. Kool-aid clouds the mind.

All of the candidates have practiced the art of saying nothing. Or at least I hope. In a media driven world there is no reason to bring your own trouble. That said, a lie is a very different matter and doesn't fly in a democracy that demands an informed electorate.

[TrueAmerican]

43. Clark does it again!

Howard Dean gave the wrong, wrong, wrong answer. I winced when he said it, and after replaying and rereading what he said the shock value has not worn off.

Thank you General Clark for restoring Honor and Integrity back into politics! Next! the WHITE HOUSE!!!!

[Field Of Dreams]

48. If Bush gave the same answer Dean did,,,

we would be calling for impeachment hearings.

[knight_of_the_star]

53. Too true

What makes Dean any different?

[TorchTheWitch]

54. Amen to that

Talk about hypocracy. I'm really getting the impression from some people that if Candidate X Who Is Not Their Favorite cut the head off of his wife and ran it down the garbage disposal in full view of 20 kindergartners, an excuse waiving all blame would be found for it.

I have a big problem with some supports of Dean in particular who complain about the fact that another candidate MIGHT lie when Dean is on record for some lies already and he's still doing some lying, particularly in a thread where Dean says in certain vital national security situations it's ok to lie. :crazy:

I don't really care if Clark or Dean or anyone else lies about whether or not they touch up their gray hair, how big their penis is or if they always remember to wash their hands after using a public toilet, but lies to the American public about important issues, particularly concerning national security is unacceptable.