I hate the "Dean spent the Vietnam War skiing in Apen" line....

[vi5]

I'm not a Dean fan and have my reservations (although I'm strictly an ABB guy). But when I see that line even in what seems like an otherwise unbiased or innocuous article,it gets my blood a boiling. If people want to make an issue of something that is fine, and it may or may not be a legitimate question (even though every time I've seen Dean answer this question he has answered it honestly and in a way that I feel is satisfactory). But such a general sweeping statement full of ridiculousness like that is just horrible. It pretty much implies that in a war that lasted years, all Dean did was ski in Aspen for the entirety of the conflict.

Sorry, just a random thought on an article I just read which irked me with this one line.

[Hep]

1. Some folks have bad memories

Kerry must not remember thee words coming out of his mouth:

“I am saddened by the fact that Vietnam has yet again been inserted into the campaign, and that it has been inserted in what I feel to be the worst possible way… What saddens me most is that Democrats, above all those who shared the agonies of that generation, should now be re-fighting the many conflicts of Vietnam in order to win the current political conflict of a presidential primary.”

[vi5]

5. It's got nothing to do with Kerry...

Kerry didn't say that and the article had nothing to do with Kerry.

[Hep]

8. Kerry said

what I quoted, and it IS about Kerry since it is him and members of his steering committee using Vietnam against Dean.

Anyway, my quote applies.

[vi5]

12. Thanks for hijacking my thread..

and using it as an opportunity to bash Kerry.

[Hep]

17. You brought it up

And Cleland has been saying it just about every day as a member of Kerry's steering commitee.

If you have a problem with the attack on Dean, you should have a problem with the people making it.

[vi5]

29. I was talking about an article, not other candidates....

And it was a post favorable to Dean.

And Dean supporters wonder where they get their reputation from.

[Hep]

33. Well, considering

there's no article posted to talk about, I don't see where you thought this conversation was going to go.

And don't worry about our reputations. Looks like we're doing pretty well for ourselves.

You don't like the line, but you'll apparently let it slide depending on who's saying it.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Do you have evidence to support that

allegation against Kerry?

[Hep]

22. Ask ask ask

but never read the answers.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. What answers? Where? eom

[papau]

39. Perhaps DIU/drugs/getting 15 yr old preg. and AWOL/desertion in 70's

might be a fun discussion.

By the way, the 15 yr statutory rape victim got an abortion paid for by Bush - and she still really likes Bush and will not speak against him.

So will our whore media give multi-day life to GOP staff comments about skiing during VietNam - while ignoring Bush before born again -

you betcha!

:-)

[Hep]

42. You kidding, this isn't about Bush until the primaries end

For now people are content to attck dems without even having a decent reason.

I've learned so much about what exists in the hearts and minds of the people who post here.

[bearfartinthewoods]

35. nice attempt at deflection of the issue

a very typical response of many people to any issue regarding dean's weaknesses.

i keep wondering how well that will work in the general. when the media and rove bring this up, how will pointing to something kerry said help?

[Hep]

38. Not a proven weakness

It's all speculation. Of course people want it to be truth, and they'll call it truth, but they never have enough information to demonstrate it as such.

But let me ask you about this deflection you whine about. What was the issue and how did I deflect it? As I see it, the issue was the stupid aspen meme, and I am still talking about it, so...

[bearfartinthewoods]

61. i said attempt at deflection

i'm pleased to see you aren't falling for it.

on edit added n't

[Monte Carlo]

9. Oh come on now.

It's all Kerry's fault that war experience is an issue? It's lamentable, sure, but it's a fact of this election.

[Hep]

14. It's NOT a fact of this election

Actually try reading the Kerry quote I provided. That was *1992*. Yet Vietnam is more pertinant today?

The excuse making here is bizarre. Apparently if you are Kerry or a supporter of Kerry, what's OK and what's not changes daily.

[Monte Carlo]

24. You wanna bet?

If you don't think military experience is going to be a big factor, you're crazy. If Dean gets the nod, be prepared to hear "Dean is a draft-dodging, liberal coward!!!" every day until Election Day. That is a sure bet, and Kerry has nothing to do with that.

What I said before was not an excuse. You are impling contradictions where there are none.

[Hep]

31. You reaqlly don't get it!

WE HEAR IT EVERY DAY NOW.

Why? Because of so called DEMOCRATS. I've already said this once. Read the thread.

I'm not implying contradictions. I'm flat out saying that there are contradictions. ANd they're obvious.

Military experience is NOT going to be a big factor. Anyone who says it is is still brainwashed by 9/11. Bush can't use military experience because most of his appointees have none themselves. And it doesn't matter. A president doesn't NEED military experience. He's not drawing up military strategy, just making choices based on how MILITARY experts advise him. If this is the best argument you can make, You're in big trouble. And of course, I'm very happy about that.

You know the sheer idiocy of the criticisms of Dean help build my confidence in this primary.

[Monte Carlo]

78. I get it just fine, thank you.

Sure you hear it every day, just like I have to knock down all the misconceptions about Kerry's IWR vote.

If you think that you're getting it bad from Democrats about Dean's war record, it hasn't even started yet. It's going to be a nonstop, $250M+ onslaught of attack ads from the Bush campaign come September/October. THEY are the ones who will make military experience an issue, brainwashed or not.

And there are no contradictions, obvious or not.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. What evidence do you have

of Kerry forgetting that statement? The initial post says nothing about Kerry, doesn't tell what article is referred to, doesn't link to the article.

Just thought you'd bash Kerry for no good reason, did you?

[Hep]

19. Evidence?

IS Max Cleland not on KLerry's steering committee?

Why would Kerry make a quote like that in 1992, but not when members of his own staff are saying the same thing? I know why people don't see a consistency problem. But if you're looking for one of the roots of this nature of attack on Dean, look Kerry's way.

Who among you is seriously denying this?

[vi5]

30. Do you have the Cleland quote and a link?

I'd be curious to read that. Cleland actually said "Dean spent the Vietnam War skiing in Aspen"?

C'mon, whenever anyone makes accusations against Dean without links and footnotes people start complaing. So all's fair. I'm not saying he did or didn't say this, but the same rules apply to all sides.

For the record I don't care for Kerry any more than I care for Dean. I just hate the stench of hypocricy from wherever it emanates.

[Hep]

36. Cleland quote and link

from someone who references an article and doesn't post a exerpt or a link. I'm beginning to understand why some people turn a blind eye to double standards.

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/ la-na-deferment23nov23,1,7492159.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

Max Cleland of Georgia, said Dean "weaseled out of going to Vietnam on a medical deferment for a bad back and wound up on the ski slopes of Aspen."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2003/11/23/94218/599

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:cePd1lh7ZggJ:www.batesstudent.com/news3.htm+cleland+dean+vietnam&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Decide for yourself, although I suspect you decided before you read this.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. The original theme of the thread was that the poster

disliked overblown attacks on Dean, such as statements that he spent the Viet
Nam years skiing in Aspen. YOU turned it into your own vendetta against Kerry and, now, Cleland.

Cleland came back from Viet Nam with no legs and only one arm -- think maybe that's why he's a little testy about Dean, who "weaseled out of going to Vietnam on a medical deferment for a bad back and wound up on the ski slopes of Aspen" ?

[Hep]

50. All I did

was provide a source for this ruthless and hamfisted attack on Dean. Sorry if it's YOUR camp.

I don't think cleland's losing limbs is Dean's fault, do you? So why would Cleland be mad at Dean?

Nope, Cleland is mad because he got his ass kicked in 2002. And now he's trying the same tactic against Dean. Cleland is a hired shill. You should be worried about who's paying him to say this shit.

But no, that's where the double standard in Kerry's qquote becomes apparent.

[meegbear]

2. What article?

I never heard the "Dean spent the Vietnam War skiing in Apen" line util now.

BTW - where's Apen?

[BlueEyedSon]

6. It's near Aspen. nt

[molly]

10. He didn't spend the entire war skiing in Aspen

he just took his xrays to the draft board - THEN celebrated by going to Aspen as a ski bum for about a year.

[ET Awful]

18. Lloyd said it best . . .

"I'm talkin about a place where the beer flows like wine, where the women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talkin about Aspen."

[GainesT1958]

3. The bad news: he may be seeing more of that line from the Repubs...

And maybe even from some of his primary opponents, too...

The good news: it may not make much of a difference, as Poppy's people called Clinton a "draft dodger" every chance they got in 1992, to no avail. Moreover, it does little good for Dub's people to bring this up, as they don't relish their guy being called "Mr. AWOL" very much in return!:eyes:

B-)

[BlueEyedSon]

4. And what did Bush spend the VN War doing?

Being AWOL? Dodging drug tests?

How about Cheney, and the other Chickenhawks?

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NEWS%3B%20Chickenhawks

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NEWS%3B%20Chickenhawks%3B%20Chickenhawk%20Headquarters

[molly]

13. We already know that - the pugs will have a field

day with Dean's - they don't play fair - remember? That along with his sealed records - well, stick a fork in him!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. Get used to it - you'll hear it EVERY DAY if Dean gets the nod

I hope Dean fans have a real good answer for it, because it isn't going away.

[Hep]

11. We hear it every day

already from assholes who call themselves democrats, right here at DU. The odd thing is, the people who spout it every day NOW think they're better than the people who will apparently say it every day in six months. Go fig on THAT one.

[JNelson6563]

21. GOP doesn't have to lift a finger

Democrats are far more cannabalistic than Republicans. That's why the Rs are kicking our asses lately.

Pathetic.

Julie

[molly]

28. Scuse me - but I am a DEMOCRAT

and not an asshole.....I want US to win this election and I feel Dean has way too much baggage.

[Hep]

41. If the shoe fits

If you have ever mentioned Dean and the draft as a reason not to support him, then you might want to check your tags.

[molly]

44. I don't support him because I do not trust him nor do

I think he can beat Bush.

[Hep]

45. You saw what I said

I frankly could NOT care less why you don't support him. As long as you stay here ion this board instead of knocking on doors for YOUR guy like I'll be doing tonight, I'm happy.

[TLM]

69. Sorry but actions speak louder than words...

Anybody who attacks a democrat for getting a medical deferment from vietnam, is no democrat.



Is someone wants to mouth GOP talking points in order to attack a dem, they should not be surprised to be labled a GOP hack.

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Many Democrats are trying to warn other Dems that

Dean has a number of problems which will make a Bush landslide the likely result of a Dean nomination.


It's hardly a sign of loyalty to the Democratic Party to insist on backing a losing horse just because you like him.

[Hep]

43. BLAh BLAH friggin BLAH

Yes, you assure us of this number of problems, and never have we seen a compelling demonstration of how these problems are really problems and how they will affect us.

You're speculating. And you're showing a less than 100% commitment to ousting Bush. I'm sure that's fine for you. But it doesn't fly with me.

[DemBones DemBones]

63. I have been a card-carrying registered Democrat since 1968.

(And you? )

Smart Dems look at skeletons in candidates' closets as well as what the candidate proposes to do. Dean has a pile of bones in his closet *and* proposes to govern like a Republican. Not the ideal nominee by a long stretch.

[TLM]

70. Same crap different day...

The idea that we're going to win by soemhow finding the candidate that the republicans can't attack is just flat out stupid.

Look at Gore... he was a f-ing boyscout and they still went after him.

We are never going to win by trying to run someone we think they can't attack. We are going to win by running the guy who is best at fighting back against those attacks, and that is HOWARD DEAN!


As Clinton showed us all... it doesn;t matter what skeletons you have in your closet if you are willing and able to fight back. Clinton had a whole fucking grave yard in his closet and they couldn't beat him when they ran a war hero against him.

I do not think you really understand how this game works.

[Monte Carlo]

73. My worry is that Dean will not defend himself like Clinton did.

What you say is not as important as how you say it, and Dean's delivery is lacking. All these blogs and whatnot are swell and everything, but being President is still at TV job.

[deminflorida]

16. Sorry, but it's out there, on the radar.....

it's sitting there, it has to addressed. Seems like this guy has lots of issues out there that have to be addressed. God knows how many more he will have once he opens his records, if he opens them.

Is this the guy we are supposed to trust to beat G.W. Bush in 2004.

It's time for Democrats to think about this and think about it now.....

[Hep]

23. It's out there on the radar

"We put it there, and we're keeping it there"

[KFC]

25. I think he only skied the bunny slopes

With that bad back and all.

[Jack_Dawson]

26. The Truth Hurts

Better get used to it. While many Americans from less privileged backgrounds DID have to go to Vietnam, only to be killed or maimed, Dean WAS skiing in Aspen with his "bad back". It's a huge liability for the democrats should Dean win the nomination. Not that chimpy did anything more heroic, but he is, after all, the guy that got us Saddam Hussein and is "tough on terror."

Reason #511 we need Clark.

[vi5]

32. I'm not saying it's off limits as an issue....

But my point is that the hyperbole of saying "he spent the Vietnam War skiing in Aspen" is just ridiculous and silly.

[ThomWV]

34. You Think There's No Reason?

I spent the latter part of 1967, all of 1968, half of 1969, and all of 1970 in Viet Nam. During that time I was shot three times. Where the fuck was your Dean then? If he spent so much as a day in the slopes after a medical deferment then he is not my man.

It is that simple. Gore can have my vote, Kerry can have my vote, Clark can certainly have my vote. But you ask me to vote for Dean? I do not lie when I tell you that enough evidence supports the notion that Bush was an AWOL and and there is enough evidence to support that Dean was a draft doger. Now its payback time. That part is simple too.

Thom

[Beaker]

47. Dean shot himself in both feet over the issue-

Personally, I have no problem with someone who is given a medical deferrment going out and enjoying whatever activities they are able too- I'm disabled myself, and there are plenty of activities that I can and do enjoy- but just because I can scuba dive doesn't mean that I'd make it as a Navy SEAL...for every 1 day of physical activity, i pretty much need 2-3 days of recuperation.
military service is hard, and hard on the body- a weekend ski- trip in no way relates to the rigors of basic training.

HOWEVER- when Howard Dean made the statement "I probably could have served...", he fucked himself royally, and that comment will be the centerpiece of the Karl Rove election strategy if Dean is the nominee.

Howard Dean cannot, and will not win the Presidency in 2004.

[TLM]

71. Can you please explain to me how sking is more stressful

on the body than combat?


Dean got a MEDICAL DEFERMENT! That means they did not want him... because they did not want someone like you being forced to drag his ass out of a combat zone after his back went out.

If Dean's back went out on the slopes... nobody died, no mission failed, and Uncle Sam didn’t get stuck with the bill.

As a military man, you should know damn well that the military does not want some folks. A good friend of my fathers was rejected because he had minor scoliosis.

Nobody disputes that Dean’s back condition was real or his deferment valid. Some just get pissy because Dean went on with his life after being rejected, instead of convalescing in a hospital bed or wheelchair the rest of his life.

I have bad knees. If I went to join up today, I’d be rejected instantly because I have bad knees. So does that mean I’m never allowed to walk or run or jump again? No it simply means that my physical condition, while not particularly restrictive in my day-to-day living, does not meet the standards that the military requires for soldiers.

The same was true in Dean’s case. Should he have lied? Should he have put all the men in his unit at risk by hiding a serious physical condition? Seems to me that no military man would want to have his life put at risk because somebody else lied about their physical condition.

[glitch]

40. I heard a vietnam vet respond to this the best:

would you want the guy fighting next to you, possibly covering your back, have his back seize up in combat? Then not only can you not rely on him but now you have to try and save him.
There's a reason the draft board refused Dean. And skiing is hardly the same environment as war. If Dean's back seized up on the slopes would anybody's life be at risk? Maybe, but not likely.

[Beaker]

48. Exactly....BUT, Dean screwed himself-

by saying that he "probably could have served", rather than explaining it in those kind of terms.

[molly]

49. I heard him say on a talk show - I think it was Chris Matthews

that he did not want to go to Viet Nam. Of course, he didn't volunteer this - he had to be pressed. It wasn't a military doc that discovered he had a "bad" back. He took his private doc records to the draft board.

[DemBones DemBones]

51. Yes, he finally admitted that on "Hardball."

The way HE changed his story over the past year will cause him problems. We didn't make him do it, we're pointing it out as a problem, and Hep calls us "assholes" for doing so. Nice guy. :eyes:

[Beaker]

52. yes, but- everyone is instructed to bring pertinent medical records-

to the physical. It's not an unusual thing, he was supposed to bring the information that he did, since not all medical conditions(like Dean's) are obvious in a simple examination.

[molly]

55. He admitted that he took them to the draft board

to AVOID going to VM. Many people DID NOT want to go, but did anyway. The draft board did not TELL him to have his doctor write an excuse. Quit making excuses for the man!

[Beaker]

58. I'm not making excuses- it's a fact.

in the inductment letter, potential draftees are told to bring any pertinent medical records with them to the physical...believe me, I'm no Dean supporter, but I don't fault him for bring his records to the physical. It was the proper thing to do.

[TLM]

72. Molly, if you have a pre-existing condition...

you are supposed to bring that information to the draft induction physical.

[ET Awful]

79. If you do NOT bring such records with you. . .

that in itself is a crime. He was required by law to bring those medical records.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

54. "seize up"? As if that is a possibility?

It's a matter of pain, not paralysis.

[Beaker]

57. "seize up" doesn't mean paralysis...

I doubt it's actually a medical term anyway...maybe an offshot of "seizure"...but if you get to a point where you can't move your back without intense pain, you aren't necessarily parylized, but you are "seized up"...or you can have a "seizure" wherein your muscles get all cramped up.

[TLM]

74. Ever known anybody with a sliped or dislocated disk?

Obviously not.

Even a slight disk problem can cause such pain and loss of muscel control that an indivudal would be unable to walk, let alone carry the gear a soldier must carry.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

80. Sure, but that's not Dean's condition

stick to the facts please.

[Beaker]

85. the facts of spondylosis...

http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1440.html
What Is Spondylosis?

Spondylosis (spinal osteoarthritis) is a degenerative disorder that may cause loss of normal spinal structure and function. Although aging is the primary cause, the location and rate of degeneration is individual. The degenerative process of spondylosis may impact the cervical, thoracic, and/or lumbar regions of the spine affecting the intervertebral discs and facet joints.



Spondylosis often affects the following spinal elements:
Intervertebral Discs and Spondylosis
As people age certain biochemical changes occur affecting tissue found throughout the body. In the spine, the structure of the intervertebral discs (anulus fibrosus, lamellae, nucleus pulposus) may be compromised. The anulus fibrosus (e.g. tire-like) is composed of 60 or more concentric bands of collagen fiber termed lamellae. The nucleus pulposus is a gel-like substance inside the intervertebral disc encased by the anulus fibrosus. Collagen fibers form the nucleus along with water, and proteoglycans.

The degenerative effects from aging may weaken the structure of the anulus fibrosus causing the 'tire tread' to wear or tear. The water content of the nucleus decreases with age affecting its ability to rebound following compression (e.g. shock absorbing quality). The structural alterations from degeneration may decrease disc height and increase the risk for disc herniation.

[DemBones DemBones]

60. But there is NO evidence that Dean

would have been refused by the military if he hadn't shown up for his physical carrying X-rays and a letter from an orthopedist. No evidence that his back ever caused him problems, except him saying it did. He played a lot of sports in high school and intramural football at Yale, and, most famously, went skiing right after getting his medical defermant. It arouses suspicions.

John Kennedy wanted to serve, was rejected by the Army for his bad back, and his father pulled some strings to get him in the Navy, with JFK going on to be a war hero. That's a more appealing bio for a president.

[chocolateeater]

64. Yes, he could have lied

about his condition. Silly Dean for not thinking 30 years ahead to when he might be running for President.
One more thing, Dean was classified 1-Y not 4-F.

Class I-Y:
Registrant qualified for military service only in time of war or national emergency.

Comment: I would hope that someone who was called up for "war or national emergency", would have the ability to do some sort of physical activity, like skiing.

Class IV-F:
Registrant not qualified for any military service.

Here is the link: http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/draft.htm

[TLM]

76. Once again sports or skiing is not combat.

The military won't take you if they feel there is even a chance that you'll be unfit for duty.

You show me one vet that says that a game of football or sking is anything close to combat... go ahead.

[kcwayne]

53. if you are over 50 and are critical of Dean over the draft issue

you are most likely a flaming hypocrite. I can't remember a single one of my peers that thought going to Nam was a heroic or smart thing to do, or had anything to do with defending the US. We constantly hashed over endless urban legends about things you could do to fail the med exam. My favorite was to pinch an olive in your rectum all night long before the physical because it would give you high blood pressure.

That is not to say that there were some people who felt compelled to fight the communists before they hit the beaches in LA, but they were vastly a minority.

Its rediculous to criticize Dean for doing what an overwhelming majority of us did or wanted to do, namely not get drafted. Of course people are making and will continue to make an issue of it. In my mind they are fools that don't know any better, or just plain stupid and jingoistic. If you feel that way, you deserve to die in the deserts of Iraq, Syria, Iran, or whatever frontier our government opens up as the next battleground.

If you are between 28 and 50, you were never asked to sacrifice your life for the sake of a senseless and immoral war. Your opinions have been cultivated in world where you never have had to make a hard choice on the value of your life versus the value of government propaganda. As such, it is an acedemic position for you, and you will never face that type of decision. In my opinion, you really don't have the credentials to suggest someone is wrong for avoiding the draft because you never had any skin in the game.

If you are younger than 28, how do you feel about going to Iraq and dying for the sake of Halliburton? If you are going to criticize Dean, you should hustle down and enlist right now. If you are going to play the odds and wait to see what the selective service will do with you in 2005, then you are doing exactly what Dean and millions of others did in 1968-1972.

Another point I would like to make about the X-Rays and skiing. The military was fairly strict about what they would classify as a draftable soldier. There were many, many people that were classified as not draftable, and could then spend the next winter skiing. I could of if I had the money.

I failed my physical because my left foot is slightly deformed (from a military operation for polio that I had when I was a child). Even though I played football and wrestled in high school, and had no symptions from the surgery since I was 5, the military would not take me. If I had been born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I would have gone to Aspen or Europe or something, but I went to work that summer and college that fall. I was elated that I wouldn't be coming home from the Mekong Delta in a body bag. Guess I am just a bad American.

[OneTwentyoNine]

59. Great post....

I graduated in 71,my brother in 69. He went directly into the Navy to avoid the Army draft. I held out hoping the madness would end.

Your right,not ONE damn person I went to HS with was ready to enlist and kick commie ass--no Ron Kovic's in our high school. Most had the money to go to college and hide out for four years,I didn't so I went to work.

Got a ultra low lottery number and did the army physical in Dec 72 and the war ended in March or April 73. GD,was I grateful....

Signed... another bad Murikan...

David

[DemBones DemBones]

67. I am over 50 but old enough that the war wasn't an issue in high school

or even in the first couple of years of college. Guys were enlisting and guys were being drafted but nobody I knew was resisting until 1969 or 1970. The first of my friends to go to Nam shipped out in 1966. I wasn't elgiible for the draft because I'm female, but it affected me a lot because my male peers and my brothers were eligible.

You are correct that people under 50 can't understand the stress that the war and the draft caused in our lives. I think we looked more critically at war because of the draft, because we had friends and/or family over there. It's easy to say "Go get those evildoers!" when nobody you know personally will be risking their life. And without a draft, far fewer Americans know anyone in the military.

I don't hold it against Dean that he didn't want to go. I hold it against it him that he hasn't been forthcoming about the true story.

Also, he wrote a paper in which he envisioned a career in politics for himself. He was a sophomore at Yale when he wrote that, a senior when he got his deferment. A 21 year-old who'd been thinking about a political career at 19 should have thought more about how his draft record might hurt him in the future. Hell, we were ALWAYS warned about things going on our PERMANENT RECORD back then. Only guys named Bush get a pass on their permanent records.

[kcwayne]

75. The draft did not start unti l 68

hence the resistence kicked up big time. The crises hit when the government started jerking the unwilling off the street as cannon fodder. There were unwilling guys in 66, but they had joined the services voluntarily.

I am not sure what Dean has not been forthright in on the story. I saw him interviewed by Tweety and he said that he brought his medical records and didn't want to go. He didn't say I went skiing afterwards, I heard that afterward, but it doesn't make a difference to me. The military didn't want him the same way they didn't want me. I was more than physically fit enough, but they did not want people that they might have to assume a lifelong medical liability for, so they screened carefully. The same applies to Dean.

What Dean said in that interview took courage in this era of gotcha politics. Most politicians would spew some doublespeak that made it seem like they got the Congressional Medal of Honor when they spent their "tour" playing golf. Like Dan Quayle, Newt Gingrich, Dick Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, etc. etc.

Its a catch 22. The critics find some emotional wedge issue and create a big conflict about it. Like Clinton's sexual escapades and dope smoking when he was 22. It doesn't make a difference, but once the conflict starts, everyone focuses on it without going back to the original question of whether this is something that should even be an issue at all.

What moment of your life would you like to explain to a rabid audience just waiting for you to say something that doesn't pass their litmus test, and then spin and misconstrue it endlessly? You know that whatever you say, it will be used against you by drooling mobs..

Maybe its like all the white wedding dresses that have been worn over the last couple hundred years by women that should not have according to "the rules." I, fortunately had no litmus test for what color tux I wore, and didn't have to look at smirks in the audience. And no, I wasn't a virgin when I got married (gasp!).

[OneTwentyoNine]

56. Would it matter if he served?

Gore served,did that stop the Repigs for one minute? Nah,Gore had a cushy reporter job,bullets didn't fly past his head on a daily basis so therfore his service doesn't count.

It would be the same with Dean as a doctor in Vietnam. Most likely well behind the lines,out of harms way. Plenty of LOA to go party. If Dean had served it would still be an issue.

Who the hell wasn't looking for a way out of VN back then?? Clinton was,Bush was,Cheney was,Ashcroft was,DeLay was,I was. Who the hell wanted to die?

David

[Jack_Dawson]

62. Ummm...yes these days it would matter

[OneTwentyoNine]

65. Time will tell....

[Hippo_Tron]

66. Kerry fan here, tired of the Dean criticism...

I truly believe that Dean will either win or loose the nomination or loose by a landslide. I don't think that these criticisms of Dean will have much effect on his popularity.

[jonnyblitz]

68. yeah I saw some DU poster refer to him as a draft dodger

and all I could think of was the right wingers using that against Clinton. I LOATHE using military service as a litmus test for eligilibilty for running for president. I think that is why I have a hard time with Clark supporters who cling to his military service as THE thing that can beat Bush. I was in the military for 10 years and I tell you I wouldnt want many of the senior officers I had to encounter as president.

I am also not a Dean supporter yet either but slowly being driven to being one....

[SoCalDem]

77. George Bush spent the VietNam war snorting coke, drinking

and avoiding his National Guard duty.. That's the only "meme" that matters..

Dean has NEVER sent anyone into battle.. BUSH HAS....

At least Dean DID something with his life.. He became a DOCTOR.. Bush would have flunked out of college if not for the pull his Daddy had..

Bush has never actually gotten a job on his own.. Everything he has "done" is as a direct result of Daddy pulling the strings for him..

I seriously doubt that anyone smart enough to become a doctor could be considered a slacker..

and before people flame me as a "Deaniac"..I have not "signed on" as a supporter of any candidate..:)

Instead of attacking each other's candidates, we would be better served to go after the cretin in the whitehouse..

Fighting in ANY war is something that no one approaches lightly.. Friends of mine died in Viet Nam, and NONE of them wanted to go.. They went because they HAD to go..Rich kids from back east flooded into the colleges in the midwest, and kids who "could have barely gotten in", did not get that option, because lots of rich eastcoasters paid for those spots with out of state tuition..

It was like most wars.. people of privilege do not fight.. their kind starts wars, and the underlings fight them..

At least Dean went to his physical, and I doubt that his Daddy was powerful enough to have arranged his "deferment".. Lots of guys got deferments..back then you could get them for being married, for being a good student, for physical anomalies..

Draft Dodger does not fit in his case..

[zulchzulu]

81. While not a big deal, it is certainly another political liability for Dean

I recently met a Viet Nam vet who did have a bad back and still was able to serve. He was trained in positions that didn't rely on a perfectly working back. But he did serve. Granted, he was from a poor family and didn't have much choice after being drafted.

In an article about Dean's getting a Y deferral and then hitting the ski slopes and doing concrete work, even his own mother said it doesn't look good.

What this political liability takes away from attacking Bush on his AWOL record is huge. Dean can't bring that issue up or say anything when Bush lands on aircraft carriers.

If Dean did go ahead and become president and continue fighting the war in Iraq (which he has said he would do), then he could be declared the same thing as Bush...a chickenhawk.

Compare that liability contrasting with Clark or Kerry and it's a different situation.

[KFC]

82. This issue alone will kill him in the general election

100x as bad as Dukakis in the tank. The fact that he went skiing and said he probably could have served after receiving a medical deferrment is pure poison.

ABD for thr nomination (and VP)

ABB in the GE

[jpgpenn]

83. You "Hate the Line" I hate the fact....

Dean did it.:puke:

[TexasPatriot]

84. military folks tend to come in family units

they live in small towns (like mine), and joining the army is just one of the more established ways of getting out. When they leave, they go off to Kileen, or Colo Springs, etc and they clan up with the other families. Grep for clark on education, you'll see him talking about how it's not just the military members - but their families that create the massive logistical issues like proper education and health care.

A candidate like Kerry or Clark might not have the broad support of all soldiers, but they'd likely draw well from a lot of them - and would certainly draw well from their families (considering the mess we're in right now).

As far as it goes - this is one of those one-issue issues for these people. It's a tactical problem that becomes a strategic disadvantage. I wont like hearing it come GE time if Dean is the nominee - but there are a great number of people for whom this will be a major turnoff, and those people are otherwise less likely to be supportive of the pubs today than in any election in the last 20 years.

I dont think this sort of smear works well in a lot of states, but I think Trippi would have to abandon WVa when the pushpolls started. They'll be chanting it right up to election day - and the fact that it bothers you only encourages them. Republicans are griefers at heart.

[bigtree]

86. What did Dean do during the Vietnam war?

Did he protest against it? Where? How? Did he support it? Did he do nothing? What did he do?

[SoCalDem]

87. He went to college and became a doctor...n/t

.

[bigtree]

88. I'm sorry

(What did he do)about the war?