Could a knowledgeable Deanie please respond?

[southerngirlwriter]

Disclaimer: I am in favor of Anybody but Bush and have stayed out, for the most part, of the candidate promoting and bashing. I don't care who the candidate is -- any of them would be better than Bush. Period. I have a slight preference for Edwards, but am not rabid about it.

I believe the handwriting is on the wall about Dean getting the nod. Ergo, tonight I started doing some research on him. I have a wide circle of moderate friends who could be persuaded to go either way, and so I want to know what I'm talking about.

Could a Deanie please respond to this article (i.e., refute the allegations)? It will help me craft some talking points to start working on friends.

Thank you!

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/12/for_dean_captive_insurance_a_vt_boon/

[KaraokeKarlton]

1. It's basically all a crock of shit

I started a thread debunking it within the last couple of days in this section. I'll look for it for you. It might be way back at this point, but if I find it I'll give it a kick for you and a link here.

[southerngirlwriter]

3. thanks. That's what I figured, but

I wanted to be sure. I'll look for your thread in the morning (or you could PM me the link).

[zulchzulu]

6. This should be funny

Boil it down right now. Surely you remember something... why is the article "a crock of sh*t"? I'll take two bullet points for starters.

Is it because there might be a chance that Dean is showing yet more liabilitiies as a viable candidate?

[XanaDUer]

11. I think this is it...

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/12/for_dean_captive_insurance_a_vt_boon/


"But during Dean's 11 years as Vermont governor, he enacted tax breaks that attracted to the state a "Who's Who" of corporate America -- including Enron -- to set up insurance businesses. Indeed, Dean said in 2001 that he wanted Vermont to "overtake Bermuda" as the "world's largest" haven for a segment of the insurance industry known as "captives," which refers to firms that help insure their parent companies.

With little notice then -- and barely any mention now in the Democratic presidential campaign -- Dean succeeded in turning Vermont into the kingdom of captives. Vermont has more of these companies than the other 49 states combined. As part of the enticement, Dean led efforts to cut state taxes of such companies, and he helped defeat a Clinton administration effort that would have eliminated $100 million worth of federal tax deductions given to the industry."

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. Dean didin't have anything to do with captive insurance coming to VT

The law that both allowed and encouraged the captive insurance companies to set up shop in Vermont was passed in 1981, a full year before Dean even entered politics. By the time be became governor the industry was well established with an 11 year history. Right from the start Vermont became a popular place for the industry, and the state had the most in the country long before Dean came into office.

The cuts in question were, I believe, took effect in 1993. If that's the case, they weren't even Dean's cuts, they were Richard Snellings, the previous governor who died in office whom Dean replaced. Dean left much of Snellings policies in place due to the state being a bit of a mess. He decided to give the current plans a chance to see how it'd go before changing anything.

Regarding Enron...they opened up shop in captive insurance in Vermont in 1995. Hindsight is 20/20 and not a one of us could have predicted the Enron scandal or that they would turn out to be crooks. Maybe you had a magic crystal ball or a great psychic you were consulting to tip you off, but Dean didn't. And since you seem to be under the impression that Dean had to know what Enron was, then surely you must have known and all I can say to that is why didn't you tell anyone?

So yes, the article is, essentially, a crock of shit.

[XanaDUer]

16. Also,

"While the captive insurance industry began arriving in Vermont before Dean began his 11-year term as governor, Dean heavily promoted the industry and it grew dramatically under his administration into a key revenue source.

"In terms of benefits to the state, this is one of the crown jewels in the state's tiara," said Lisa Ventriss, who until last year ran the Vermont Captive Insurance Association and is now president of the Vermont Business Roundtable. "There is maple syrup and skiing and cheddar cheese and captive insurance. What more could you want from life?"...


And,

"
Molly Lambert, who served from 1998 to 2002 as commerce secretary under Dean, said he played a key role in attracting captive insurance business. "The governor would meet personally with captive owners when they came to the state on many occasions," said Lambert, who now heads the Vermont Captive Insurance Association. "If he knew the managers or owners would be in town, they went to his office, or he went to them. He went to all the association gatherings. The accessibility to the governor for the industry has been just incredible."

The companies owning captives in Vermont range from Microsoft to Dupont to Enron, according to a list provided by Vermont officials in response to a request from the Globe."


Entire article here:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/12/for_dean_captive_insurance_a_vt_boon/

[KaraokeKarlton]

21. It didn't grow "dramatically" and it's always been a key revenue source

The fact of the matter is this...if Vermont were not an option for this industry those companies who have these companies in Vermont would have them in either Bermuda or the Caymans which is equivalent to more exported US jobs.

Dean balanced the budget EVERY year. Dean insured virtually ALL of Vermonts kids and most adults. Vermont seniors have a prescription drug benefit. Vermont's schools have fair and equal funding regardless of how wealthy the town is. Vermont's minimum wage went up twice under Dean. Child abuse and neglect dropped drastically because of Dean's innovative early childhood program. Dean promoted SAVING American jobs.

And your issue with this is what, exactly?

[zulchzulu]

37. In conclusion, the article ISN'T a crock of....

You mention that the jobs would have gone to Bermuda or the Caymans unless Dean made sure they stayed in Vermont.

This notion basically shows that the article is correct.

[KaraokeKarlton]

41. No, the article implies that Dean is some champion of captive insurance

and that he created, coddled and nurtured it. He didn't. He simply liked collecting the taxes on the premiums they paid so he could provide health care for children and prescription benefits for seniors.

Now what was it you were complaining about again?

[Nicholas_J]

45. Dean didnt write the law allowing it.

He just made it worth while tax wise for these companies to pack up their assets and move them to Vermont. Before hand, it wasnt worth it for them to come to Vermont.

[KaraokeKarlton]

46. As usual, your "facts" are wrong

The captive insurance industry was thriving in Vermont long before Dean became governor. If memory serves me correctly, it was Snellings tax cuts that are in question, anyhow.

I wish the admins would delete all the locked threads so the thread with all the links I provided a couple of days ago would rise up out of the archives.

I really don't want to dig all that up again.

To make a long story short, you're wrong about the data and per usual, talking about Vermont as if you are an authority minus the actual facts.

:eyes:

[zulchzulu]

43. This paragraph in the article says it all

Dean likes to attack others for helping out Enron with tax breaks and backroom deals when he is in fact guilty of the same thing.

Snip:

"As a presidential candidate, Dean has attacked Bush for giving tax breaks to "Ken Lay and the boys who ran Enron." But Enron apparently was attracted to Vermont because of the benefits offered under Dean's administration. Dean, who became governor in 1991, cut taxes in 1993 by up to 60 percent on the premiums paid by the parent companies to the captives at the same time he was raising the state sales tax and cutting spending. Dean's tax cuts on captives set off Vermont's boom in that industry."

Either the reporter is lying or you can't face facts.

[AP]

55. Does anyone remember incident with Dean and that blogger re Halliburton?

Some blogger noted that Dean was barely mentioning Halliburton at all in his stump speeches and in the press. Then it was dicovered that a Halliburton board member donated 2K to Dean.

Dean can't win. Either he's mentioning Enron in a pot-kettle-black manner, or he's not mentioning Halliburton.

[KittyWampus]

60. Dean Sure Won't Be Mentioning The CATO Institute

now will he....

nor will he be mentioning Cheney's Sealed Energy Meeting Papers... cause Dean has his own papers sealed from meeting with Entergy, APPARENTLY helping them purchase a power plant below value AND recieving money from them for his fledgling Presidential Campaign.

[AP]

64. Want to do you want to bet that Enron LOBBIED Dean for that tax break

and that, eager to please them, he granted it?

[southerngirlwriter]

2. I'm going to bed soon....rather than trying to stay up and keep

this kicked, but will kick it in the morning if I have to.

Thanks again, Deanies.

[madfloridian]

4. You can do a 3 day search on Enron or Dean.

There have been several very detailed threads here about it. From what I can tell he was doing what governors do. It does not alarm me.

I believe that I will never agree with Dean or anyone on every topic. I am more moderate than most here, but probably more liberal than Dean actually is.

I think he has a fairness and sense of ethics about him though, and I think he will do what is right for the people.

He is not liberal, and he is a pragmatist when it comes to businesses. I don't think you can compare him with what he have now. Most of our candidates are pretty corporately tied, especially Clark. Gep and Kerry too. I don't think there is a way out of some of it.

[Octafish]

57. Kerry has accepted ZERO PAC money.

... And that goes back through FOUR Senate election cycles. From what I know, John Kerry's only ties to corporations are to make them more responsible to the US Government and their role in American life. Recently, he helped Big Oil's grab of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge Area, for example.

[AP]

5. Ask for an explanation of this too:

"You folks at Cato," {Dean} told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

[Hep]

8. Sure!

Dean was appealing to a group of people, telling the truth about himself, demonstrating himself to be objective in policy.

Of course, the author of the article you like to write enjoys using hyperbolic phrases like "scathing in his idnictment" to help paint an image left more abstract by the speaker himself, probably to get the cockles up of people who like to dive in dumpsters. The original text of the speech? Nowhere to be found. Assurances that googling would provide the answer, as if such attempts weren't made by those making the excuses.

Was Dean right that the folks at Cato would like him? Perhaps. He doesn't lie about himself or his record. And for people who like to search and search for reasons not to like a candidate, as if a reason other than "I like another guy" is even warranted, Dean provides some muck to rake. But he never lost an election in Liberal Vermont. He did a lot of good. And we don't read about Dean's deregulation caused any major catastrophe. But people don't want to talk about specifics, especially when they don't necessarily have them to talk about. Single paragraphs plagiarized from some article serve as entire arguments nowadays. Sometimes, single words. That's how low the bar is set.

[AP]

12. "single paragraphs plagiarized from some article"

I'm offering the link. There's a 4 paragraph rule, and you should consider yourself fortunate I limitied myself to one.

I invite everyone to read this, then compare Dean to the things Democrats like Bill Clinton believes and ask yourself, are things so bad for Democrats this year that we have to nominate a guy who's BARELY a democrat on many of the issues that are at the core of Democratic principles.

Do we believe in progressive taxation? Do we believe in Keynes and that, if you create a big, wealthy middle class, you create a wealthier society? Do we believe that subconscious feelings are NOT the final frontier for fighting race relations? Do we believe that corporations have been helped more than enough and that it's time to help the middle and working class?

[Hep]

17. One paragraph, permamantly affixed to the clipboard

I'm so fortunate that you limited your copy 'n' paste of a WEEKLY STANDARD article on him to one paragraph. Not so fortunate that we never see any actual text from any speech. Freebased information, seen through the foggy glasses of People With Agendas. You've done us all a great service.

If only I had a good photo of Dean changing diapers. That would solve everything.

Anyway, you asked for an explanation, and I gave it to you. Until the next time you post it...

[AP]

20. I haven't heard Dean try to deny anything said in that article.

Furthermore, the guy frames himself as a libertarian. He's sending out the Morse code that he's on board with Wall St friendliness. This articles says things about Dean that he's trying to convey to right wingers in dots and dashes, hoping Democrtats don't understand the code.

[Hep]

27. Why should he?

How much text was in that article? How important is that article? What possible good comes from ad nauseum quoting of that article? The bus is leaving the station, and you're still in the ticket line.

And your tense is all wrong. When exactly was that Cato speech? You don't think maybe past tense is appropriate?

[AP]

33. Exactly. Why should he? He seems happy to be the libertarian in the field.

It's not like he's running from this record.

He's still not enthusiastic, like most Democrats, about tax policy. He likes deregulation (although he's letting a judge delay release of further proof). His education plan means a huge payday for Wall St, funded by taxpayers.

I know Dean talks one way now, but his walk isn't so different from the Dean who begged the Cato Institute to love him.

[Hep]

40. No need to run

You have your definitions and others have theirs. Fortunately for Truth, your definitions aren't necessarily popular or even accurate. Fortunately for Everyone, it's subjective, which means you'll never have to bother questioning the subjectivity of the thing nor your position. We all end up happy. For a while.

[AP]

53. Tell me where the subjectivity is -- and I'll make this easy for you...

...by breaking down my statements:

- He's still not enthusiastic, like most Democrats, about tax policy.

- He likes deregulation

- although he's letting a judge delay release of further proof

- His education plan means a huge payday for Wall St, funded by taxpayers.

- I know Dean talks one way now, but his walk isn't so different from the Dean who begged the Cato Institute to love him

Tell me which of these is subjective, and we'll talk about it. The ones that aren't, we'll accept as truths, and I'll defend my 'subjective' impressions with more evidence.

[Hep]

62. "Seems happy to be the libertarian"

Seems seems seems.

I think you're falling apart at the seems.

[AP]

68. That's all?

Look, that WS articls is a series of quotes belonging to Dean. I haven't heard him seriously repudiate any of those claims about who he is (except that he made lame comments like, "next time I wont bend over backwards for IBM," and "I'm glad the legislature rejected my agressive push for CA-style energy deregulation," (which Enron probably lobbied him hard to get, and which he eagerly pursued). However, he REALLY hasn't done much to repudiate those positions. He's only tried to hide them.

And his overall message is one of libertarianism: socially liberal and economically very conservative.

[wtmusic]

36. Man oh man you are dry

Dry replies and martinis--the best!! :-)

[AP]

54. Poopy pants. I heard that so much from you guys, I thought a picture of...

...a baby in diapers would be appropriate.

[Hep]

63. Whatev!

Too bad you don't have one of him saving a puppy from a storm drain.

God knows you hit the nail on the head in terms of how deeply people consider their candidates.

[AP]

73. Look at your posts if you need a criticism of the failure to 'deeply...

...consider."

You can't be bothered to write more than two sentences usually, and they're never responsive to the content of the post they follow.

[Hep]

19. And by the way

Using quotes is a little inappropriate if you aren't going to use an exact quote. What you did was paraphrasing, and even the hacks at The Weekly Standard know not to use quotes when they do that. I'd appreciate the courtesy in the future. Thanks.

[AP]

22. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Why don't you tell me exactly what you think I'm not quoting exactly.

[Hep]

26. Oh, gladly.

Odd, it apparently wasn't conscious.

I said, "Single paragraphs..." You quoted "single pages".

This is just a simple mistake I guess, eh?

[AP]

29. Again, typo corrected, but have no idea what you're talking about.

You think that was intentional? And what did you think I meant?

[Hep]

31. The bar is set so low these days

you could have meant any number of things.

[AP]

34. Yeah. And DU'ers tend to be atrocious spellers too.

And don't even get me started on grammar.

And then, the worst, is that we seem to forget what Democrats stand for. Or at least some of us do.

[Hep]

39. Some of us think they do

And then some of us think that THEIR vision of what democrats stand for is the ONLY vision for what democrats stand for. I don't know which US you think you're in.

[AP]

49. I heard Bill Clinton say that almost all Democrats now believe that

defecit spending when the economy is bad is the right thing to do. Dean doesn't believe that.

I heard Clinton say that the middle class need a tax break. Dean doesn't believe that.

I've heard Clinton say that tax policy is a great way to promote positive outcomes. Dean does't believe that.

Now, tell me what Dean stands for again?

[Hep]

66. Again, which clinton? And how did it all pan out?

And your speculation on Dean's beliefs is off. But you knew that.

[AP]

69. I asked some questions there which you've avoided answering.

[DemBones DemBones]

38. Ever asked yourself WHY Dean was using words to appeal to the

folks at Cato?

You claim: "He (Dean) doesn't lie about himself or his record." But he does lie. I find it hard to believe that he "forgot" the discussion he had with Tim Russert on national television in late June, in which Russert presented him with a 1995 statement he had made about raising the Social Security retirement age to 70. I SAW that show, I saw Dean try to wiggle out of it, and I HEARD him say, not one but twice, that he would "entertain" or "look at" raising the retirement age to 68. In early August, at the AFL-CIO debate, he denied that he'd ever favored raising the retirement age. The next day, he issued a statement that he had "misspoken." But either he was lying because he didn't want to admit what he'd publicly supported (and somehow thought no one heard him on Meet the Press), or he actually forgot, which would be more frightening, suggesting he has memory loss and can't recall his positions on issues.

Another example of Dean lying is the way his story of how he was classifed 1-Y evolved over the months of telling it. It's lying, for example, to leave out a "small detail" like showing up for your induction physical with a letter from an orthopedist (an old friend of Dad's, I've read recently) and a set of X-rays to document a "disability."

He also lied more than once by claiming that his records are sealed to protect the privacy of people with HIV who wrote to him. That's a lie because those names will be blacked out in records made public and because he's also said that he wanted his records sealed for twenty years so they wouldn't cause him any difficulties during future political campaigns.

Those ARE specifics that I'm talking about. They're things that should be familiar to anyone who's seen Dean on TV a few times and perhaps read a little about him. It seems, though, that Deanies never admit that their man was wrong -- instead, they deny his documented wrongs!

You say, "Single paragraphs plagiarized from some article serve as entire arguments nowadays. Sometimes, single words. That's how low the bar is set." Are you referring to AP's post just above, in which he quoted a single paragraph? It's not plagiarism to quote from an article. Plagiarism involves trying to pass off someone else's written work as your own. Moreover, he wasn't trying to have that quote serve as an entire argument.

One last point about your post: you say, "And for people who like to search and search for reasons not to like a candidate, as if a reason other than "I like another guy" is even warranted, Dean provides some muck to rake."

You need to understand that many of us are deeply concerned because we fear that Dean will lose to Bush, if he's the Dem nominee. We have been saying this for some time, months before the capture of Saddam. We also believe he would not be a good president if he did win. Since he is being so heavily promoted by the media as well as by his supporters, someone needs to rake that muck of his and tell people about it. We see people lining up to buy a pig in a poke and we think they should be informed before they complete that purchase.

[AP]

52. Your last paragraph is very true.

And I have to add, I'm worried about what might happen if Dean won too.

I'm not saying I wouldn't vote for him in the GE, but I'm definitely saying that I don't think the Democratic Party that would come out at the other end of the sausage maker in 2008 would bear any resemblence to the one that went in. I think we'd have a hyper-business-friendly Libertarian party in office, and a Republican party very happy to be working out compromises with them in opposition, and the party of FDR and JFK and LBJ and WJC would be gone before they ever got to complete their task.

[Hep]

65. Deeply concerned

I love when you anti-Deans share your "deep" concern. No really I do. Just do me a favor. Keep the focus on Dean. It's one of many reasons why we're winning.

[AP]

70. Why don't you care that Dean is as pro-big business as any Republican?

Why doesn't it bother you that Dean appears to have a "bend over backwards" policy when it comes to Enron and the Koch brothers?

Don't we agree that they are the biggest problem with society today?

[drfemoe]

9. They say it best ..

The Weekly Standard

Weekly Standard editors comprise a "who's who" of neoconservative figures. Currently led by William Kristol and Fred Barnes, the magazine has, since its founding in 1995, encouraged the cultivation of an American empire.

http://csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/spheresInfluence.html

Spheres of influence

Neoconservative think tanks, periodicals, and key documents.

[AP]

13. Weekly Standard wrote a love-letter to Dean this week too, right?

I saw it cited somewhere here.

[dsc]

71. I have shown repeatedly that that article is full of lies

They lied about vouchers, lied about income taxes, lied about property taxes, lied about several other things. Why do you link to a lying liar?

[AP]

74. It's an opinion piece with Dean quotes. It's the WS convincing readers...

...Dean is someone they could like.

Are you saying that Dean isn't someone they could like? Are you saying that Dean didn't say the quoted material?

[seventhson]

7. I like Dean/Edwards. As for the business deal

Most Dean supporters argue that it was good business policy; that it kept business in the US, that it ultimately paid LOTS of taxes to Vermont that it would not otherwise have gotten, and made it possible to provide universal health care to ALL Vermont's children and youth under 18 as well as most if not all of the elderly. He balanced his budget and reallocated funds to programs that benefitted poor Vermonters and all its citizens.

It was a smart fiscal move for his state and better than these companies going offshore.

It sounds kind of complicated, and I do not really pretend to fully understand it. But it was a fiscal decision which paid off and the "allegations" are really just a fairly lame attempt to spin his decision as a governor to raise revenue for his state as something awful.

I have yet to see any claim that it was to anyone's detriment - especially his constituents'. It was smart policy. it seems.

[joefree1]

10. Here's a start

Dean, who was in Iowa to give a previously planned speech in which he attacked special interests that get tax breaks, defended his record, saying the captive insurance industry is "clean." He criticized a Boston Globe article, published yesterday, that described how Dean reduced the tax on premiums paid to the captive firms by up to 60 percent. That led many corporations, including Enron, to set up such businesses in Vermont.
The article also described how Dean wrote a letter to President Clinton asserting that the elimination of the tax break would be "bad public policy." Dean said in 2001 that he wanted Vermont to "overtake Bermuda" as the world's largest haven for captive insurance companies.
"The captive insurance business is a clean insurance business which companies use in order to reduce their insurance costs," Dean said during a campaign stop in Iowa. "We are actually taking jobs out of Bermuda and back into the United States . . . We were creating clean, environmentally based jobs in the state of Vermont in order to do it."
Although the article did not say that Dean directly provided a tax break to Enron or its officials, Dean addressed that question, saying, "I think anybody who goes after that has something the matter with them. That's like saying a bank is in bad shape because they have an account at Enron." That company is now in bankruptcy, and Dean often has criticized Bush for giving tax cuts to "Ken Lay and the boys who ran Enron."
More ...
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/gephardt/articles/2003/12/13/gephardt_attacks_dean_over_tax_breaks_for_insurance_firms/


Dean Rocks The House of Blues
7:00 pm ~ 10:00 pm
House of Blues
8430 Sunset Blvd.
West Hollywood, CA 90069
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=evite_la1215
If you're going check in here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=4536
(I'll post pics on Tuesday)

[joefree1]

15. Then go here

From the LA Times
Joe Trippi, Dean's campaign manager, said the candidate's efforts as governor to bring the captive insurance industry and other businesses to the state helped build Vermont's economy. "If the Democrats in Congress, like Dick Gephardt, had produced a record like that, they'd still be in charge of Congress," Trippi said.

A Dean spokesman, Jay Carson, noted that the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee raised $176,000 from Enron in recent years while Gephardt was House minority leader. Gephardt did not dispute that assertion, and noted the donations were a matter of public record. Asked whether he had personally solicited funds from Enron executives, the Missouri congressman said, "Not that I know of."

The spat came as the two rivals, who are leading polls in Iowa in advance of the state's Jan. 19 caucuses, sought to project fresh momentum. Gephardt toured South Carolina by bus with Democratic Rep.James E. Clyburn, who endorsed him last week.
More ...
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-dems14dec14,1,6058327.story?coll=la-news-politics-national

Boston Globe, Gephardt, and the Weekly Standard. Such Bedfellows. This is a recent attack from Gephardt so be sure to stay tune for more from Dean.

"If you have no enemies, it is a sign fortune has forgot you."
- Thomas Fuller (1608 - 1661)

[AP]

18. Robert Byrd got $500 bucks from Enron, or something like that.

He said he chaired the senate energy (?) committee at the time. He said that wasn't a donation. That was an insult.

Of course Enron gave EVERYONE money. But Dean made them a TON of money by giving them a tax haven.

And INSURANC! Kevin Phillips, in Wealth and Democracy, says that the insurance industry is driving America to economic ruin.

Dean giving it a tax haven ISN'T helping the residents of VT or of any other state. He's helping them rip off America's wealth.

He would have been better off increasing funding for smal businesses and giving tax breaks to the middle and working class.

[Hep]

23. Out of curiosity

how many jobs were created bby Enron setting up shop in Vermont?

[AP]

25. 0. They went out of business. With the tax breaks, they probably cost

VT more than they made. And that's not even accounting for the public rip-off of Enron's business model and industry.

Ken Lay has millions of dollars that once belonged to the middle class and working class. Dean helped grease the skids that took that money from you and me and gave it to Ken Law.

[Hep]

28. probably?

Why probably? Is that the speculation of economic experts or your own? And what exactly are your credentials? And if the company went out of business, exactly how many tax payer dollers did Enron not have to pay? When was all of this, exactly? Where are the specifics, please?

Dean didn't take any money from me. He's never had a hand in my tax dollars. And the Vermonters I know all support him. I wonder what's wrong with them.

[AP]

30. You think Enron was good for the economy? Really?

I can't believe your argument is that Dean was right to transfer taxpayer wealth to Enron.

Hello?

[Hep]

32. I don't think it's unusual

for states to offer tax incentives for businesses moving in. I don't like it. But it's not unusual at all. If you think Dean was doing anything other than what he thought was best for his state, then you know, whatever. Similar tax incentives have brought thousands and thousands of jobs to my region.

[AP]

35. Clinton was very specific about the type of jobs he wanted to create. He

knew the difference between industries which would help the economy, and industries which wouldn't.

Clinton grew manufacturing jobs at a time when every other state was losing manufacturing jobs because that was right for Arkansas.

Enron captives are at the other end of the spectrum.

[Hep]

42. You talking Clinton as president or Clinton as Governor?

Were you on some bulletin board in 1992 digging up whatever you could find on Clinton's recod on this matter during his tenure as Governor?

[AP]

50. Actually, it's all here:

rtsp://video.c-span.org/jdrive/smil/clint052303.smi

You should spend some time with this. It's Clinton at the U of A talking to a class about his presidency.

The most shocking thing about what Clinton says on every issue, from Hussein, to tax policy, to economic policy, to how to win elections, is almost diametrically opposed to Dean.

I challenge you to find three statements in here which sound like Clinton might be describing Dean.

[AP]

56. My challenge in this post is open to all Dean-fans, and not just Hep.

[Hep]

67. So you're comparing a governor to a president?

Why am I not surprised that you don't get it?

[AP]

72. I'm not surprised you want to dodge comparisons of political philosophies.

If you addressed this you'd be confessing Dean's simpatico with Republicans.

[Donna Zen]

78. Breaking through the rhetoric

Although we support different candidates for the top of the ticket, AP and I are often on the same side in these discussions, and today is no exception. First, a thank you to AP for keeping and ordering some important links, a task I seem unable to do. Second, I will try to make sense of my perceptions about what is going on here. Gov. Dean’s supporters freely admit that their choice is not a liberal, and often describe him as a centrist, fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Now that would be a common position among some Democrats, especially Democrats of the DLC. Bill Clinton proved to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal. As AP’s links have pointed out Dr. Dean is far more fiscally conservative and far less socially liberal than Clinton. So what ideology does that leave? The CATO, a libertarian aligned group would seem to be Dean’s ideological home. A republican who smokes dope is the definition that is often the quip, although the explanation is more complex. Nevertheless, a cognitive disconnect would seem to be occuring among the base who agree that their candidate is a centrist, and yet argue that he is not.

Now what I think is being said here is this: why would one want to nominate Gov. Dean? Aside from a rather muddy stance against the war, what is he offering to the Democratic Party? If he is going to represent “the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, what worth and meaning does that statement contain other than the sound bite value used to fire up the base but meaning little less nothing? Or is the base center-Libertarian? Finally, what appeal to the general electorate does Gov. Dean bring? IOW, is he electable?

Which boils down to: why oh why are we doing this? Of course I am ABB, but I would also like to replace bush in the general electiion. And, I would like to replace him with someone who is on liberal side of the spectrum.

[KaraokeKarlton]

24. Where is the information from 1995 that Enron were well known crooks?

If you had a crystal ball letting you see into the future way back then, why didn't you let the rest of us know too?

[Nicholas_J]

44. How about:

Enron’s exploits in the presidential campaign, ably chronicled in The Observer, include donating $555,000 in soft money for the Republican Party and allowing candidate George W. Bush the use of Enron corporate jets. According to a study by the Los Angeles Times, Enron and associates gave nearly $400,000 to Bush’s two gubernatorial campaigns, nearly one third of total corporate contributions. Rewards for this generosity include Bush’s introduction of the 1995 Environmental Health and Safety Audit Privilege Act, the most industry-friendly of the nation’s 12 polluter immunity acts, written largely by an industry representative. Under the terms of the act, polluters that make private, internal audits are virtually exempted from complying with pollution regulations. Audits are then treated as privileged information, unavailable to litigants in civil or even criminal cases. Enron has frequently filed for protection under the act. Similarly, in 1996, Bush derailed legislative efforts to tackle the problems caused by companies that had been grandfathered in under the 1971 Texas Clean Air Act. The net result is that Houston’s air quality is now the worst in the nation, and every major metro area in Texas is slated to move into noncompliance with federal air-quality norms.



Enron’s international dealings, however, are not as well known here. Enron’s power plant and natural gas operations involve more than 30 countries, and frequently involve allegations of bribery, coercion, and human-rights violations. After the Gulf War, Enron hired former Secretary of State James Baker to lobby Kuwait for the contract to rebuild the Shuaiba power plant. Enron got the contract, even though a German firm underbid it by almost half. In 1995, Enron used then-National Security adviser Anthony Lake and the U.S. Embassy to coerce Mozambique into granting them a contract to develop the lucrative Pande natural gas fields. Pratap Chatterjee of Corporate Watch reports that according to Mozambique’s natural resources minister, "There were outright threats to withhold development funds if we didn’t sign, and sign soon. diplomats, especially , pressured me to sign a deal that was not good for Mozambique. It was as if he was working for Enron."

http://www.nowarcollective.com/enron.htm

or try this long timeline of Enrons misdealing as far back as 1992


http://www.altindia.net/enron/Home_files/ShortHistorynew.htm


Bad 1995 Law Helps White Collar Crooks
Even if corporate evildoers are not successful in leveraging the FBI's interest in them, they will still find plenty of protection against angry creditors in a 1995 law.
The law, passed as part of the GOP's 1994 Contract With America, is called the Public Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. The measure was vetoed by President Bill Clinton but was overridden in the Republican-controlled Congress and became law.

In a nutshell the PSLRA raised the bar for class action plaintiffs seeking civil recovery from the likes of Ken Lay et al. The law did so by reversing the civil law's natural order.

Under traditional civil statutes, bilked shareholders could sue corporate defendants, immediately gaining court-ordered discovery rights. Discovery is needed to pry loose corporate documents needed to prove shareholder claims of wrongdoing. Of course, guilty companies are understandably reluctant to turn such evidence over to plaintiffs and lobby Congress hard for a change in the law.

Under the PSLRA passed in 1995, plaintiffs must now first prove their case before the court will grant them the right of discovery. (For a full explanation of the PSLRA see the White Paper on this subject on this web site under Featured Content).

http://www.thedailyenron.com/documents/20020624090419-24599.asp


SHAMELESS:
1995'S 10 WORST
CORPORATIONS



Shell
BHP
ADM
CHIQUITA
ENRON <--------------
DOW CHEMICAL
JOHNSON & JOHNSON
3M
DUPONT
WARNER-LAMBERT

The module about Enron in 1995 reads as follows:

Enron's Political Profit Pipeline

In early 1995, the world's biggest natural gas company began clearing ground 100 miles south of Bombay, India for a $2.8 billion, gas-fired power plant -- the largest single foreign investment in India.

Villagers claimed that the power plant was overpriced and that its effluent would destroy their fisheries and coconut and mango trees. One villager opposing Enron put it succinctly, "Why not remove them before they remove us?"


http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/fraud083002.htm


Where Was God at Enron?
From the belly of the corporate beast, an exile lands on the shores of divinity school.

by Carole Bass - January 23, 2003

Also see cover art

KATHLEEN CEI PHOTO

Jim Alexander knew that Enron was headed for a "rat hole" in 1995. "Maybe if I had been more of a trooper, then maybe people wouldn't have lost a lot of money."

The Bible is full of reluctant prophets. Not Chicken Little-style fortune-tellers but truth-tellers, mouthpieces for the Almighty, drafted to confront corrupt leaders and feckless followers. Their message: Straighten up fast or meet certain doom.
Jim Alexander doesn't cast himself as a prophet. Reluctant, yes. He'd rather not, he says, be talking about Enron--how he quit in 1995, months after warning CEO Ken Lay that the company was headed for a "rat hole." He'd rather not be giving a New Haven lecture series called "Where was God in Enron?" He'd rather curl up in an armchair in his $660,000 East Rock home, learning ancient Hebrew and Greek and poring over the Bible as a Yale Divinity School student

http://www.newhavenadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:1330

Yup. I think there is enough evidence that Enron was corrupt and bought political influence and got laws tha protected them past by 1995 and before.

I wonder if Dean received any campaign money from them?

[Hep]

47. Uh, I believe it said "FROM 1995".

Not ABOUT 1995. You do see why that's important, right?

[KaraokeKarlton]

48. Virtually no one in the country even knew who Enron was

until the recent scandal.

I have no idea if Dean received any campaign money from them, but I do know that the Kerry's STILL associate with Ken Lay even AFTER everyone knows he's a crook of the highest magnitude.

:eyes:

[AP]

51. Seriously, it was no mystery what they were up to.

[dsc]

76. Oh really?

Then there should be link after link for you to provide for our perusual. Care to find even one.

[JNelson6563]

58. Here's an interesting essay

<snip>

This story begins with the California energy crisis, which started in 2000 and continued through the early months of 2001, when electricity prices spiked to their highest levels. Prices went from $12 per megawatt hour in 1998 to $200 in December 2000 to $250 in January 2001, and at times a megawatt cost $1,000.

One event occurred earlier. On July 13, 1998, employees of one of the two power-marketing centers in California watched incredulously as the wholesale price of $1 a megawatt hour spiked to $9,999, stayed at that price for four hours, then dropped to a penny. Someone was testing the system to find the limits of market exploitation. This incident was the earliest indication that the people and the state could become victims of fraud. The Sacramento Bee broke the story three years later, on May 6, 2001.

<snip>

Ken Lay was a very useful and a very knowledgeable man to have around. He knew, for instance, of the holes in the California power market that could be exploited. He tried to warn officials about the problem in 1994 when Enron testified at a Public Utility Commission hearing. Unfortunately his advice was ignored. Enron then went with the flow. It reversed itself, endorsed the system, and lauded the politicians for setting up what Enron knew was an exploitable and faulty infrastructure.

http://www.yuricareport.com/PoliticalAnalysis/FraudinWhiteHouse.htm

This is such a comprehensive essay I recommend it highly. I've yet to find a critic of Dean or defender of another candidate on any matters relevant to this essay to have the capapcity to read and discuss it. Anyone who wants to talk Enron and various corruptions/business relationships (or other related topics) would do well to read this. Of course on unintended outcome of reading this may well be to see/be reminded it is the BFEE that is the filthy corrupted enemy, but I urge readers to go ahead and take that risk. ;-)

Julie

[JNelson6563]

59. kick

:kick:

[AP]

61. Some stuff from that article:

That Ken Lay, the former chairman of Enron, enjoyed a long and close relationship with George Bush senior is a well-known fact.

...


Equally intriguing is the fact that Baker has ties with both the Bushes and Ken Lay. Years earlier, in 1993, after Baker stepped down from his stint as Secretary of State, he and Robert A. Mosbacher—Bush senior’s commerce secretary—signed a joint consulting and investing agreement with Enron. The two men began a lucrative career making joint global investments with Enron on natural gas projects. Baker Botts LLC, James Baker’s law firm, flourished in its specialty of international oil and gas counseling.
-------
And a few other articles:

George W. Bush lied when he said that he first got to know Ken Lay in 1994, and that Ken Lay was a supporter of his opponent, Ann Richards.  Actually, Lay first started contributing to GW's career back in 1978, and in fact gave GW three times as much money in 1994 as he did Ann Richards.
http://www.hereinreality.com/enron.html
------
Lay was co-chairman of former President Bush's 1990 economic summit for industrialized nations, which was held in Houston.

...

Lay also was co-chairman of the host committee for the Republican National Convention when it was held in Houston in 1992. George W. Bush played an active role in his father's unsuccessful campaign for a second term that year.
...

As Lay was donating money to Bush's 1994 and 1998 governor's campaigns, he also was lobbying legislators to deregulate the electric industry, an area into which Enron was expanding.

http://www.beaufortgazette.com/24hour/politics/story/217715p-2099162c.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

75. Some statistics about how Captives help Vermont

Summary Results of the Vermont 2001 Captive Insurance Industry Survey.

• The Captive Insurance industry in Vermont creates jobs.

Based on responses from 8 captive management companies and 4 related professional services companies, the economic/fiscal impact estimates indicate that the industry accounted for a total of 1,064 direct and indirect jobs (including both full-time and part-time) in 2001. The number of direct jobs increased over the 1999 survey from 139 to 160.

• The Captive Insurance industry generates high wages and income.


Average wages in the industry according to these preliminary survey results show that average pay for full-time, private workers averages over $52,000, 73.8% higher than the average for private non-farm "covered" jobs in 2001. 1

These high-paying jobs and industry activity in Vermont resulted in the generation of $40.9 million in incremental direct and indirect personal income for the Vermont economy and the attendant beneficial impacts of that on consumption.

• These results show that the industry generates more than $14.5 million in fiscal benefits to the State with $0.5 million in fiscal costs.


The The Captive Insurance industry paid a total of $11.8 million in premium tax receipts to state government during the calendar 2001 period, and contributed another $0.6 million in License and Examination Fees.

The industry was also estimated to have generated an additional $1.6 million in General Fund taxes and other revenues, $0.2 million in Transportation Fund revenues, and $0.3 million in Education Fund revenues as well­totaling over $14.5 million in fiscal benefits to the State in associated direct and indirect activity.

At the same time, total fiscal costs associated with the industry were estimated to be approximately $0.5 million. This includes the costs associated with general government services.

• These survey results show that the Captive Insurance industry is an important factor in the Vermont banking and financial sector with over $846.9 million in funds held at Vermont Banks, other financial companies, and investment managers.


A total of $95.3 million in funds were under investment management agreement as of December 31, 2001, and A total of $546.7 million in funds are under Custodial Management as of December 31, 2001.

Another $55.6 million in funds were under Letters of Credit as of December 31, 2001.

[texas is the reason]

77. as a deanie, i am absolutely appalled!....

that dean would try to attract american jobs and revenue back from bermuda into his state. The gall of that man trying to foster the economy of the state which he governed! <sarcasm off> oh, and anyone who claims that they knew enron wes crooked back in 1995 is either lying or should be indicted themselves, because they must have been in on it..