"Nobody But Dean" - Please tell me this is a joke

[WilliamPitt]

All of a sudden in the ranks of Dean supporters on DU, I am seeing these sentiments popping up. "I'll only vote for Dean" or "If it isn't Dean, I won't vote for Clark or Kerry or Gephart" or permutations thereof.

I have worked every day for the last three years to accomplish one goal - defeat and remove Bush and his crew. Period. End of story. There are legions of DUers who have done the same thing. I have my preferred candidate (Kerry) and I have pushed hard for him. I have also gone after Dean on more than a few occasions.

This we call "Primary Season." But when the nominee is picked, be it Dean or Kerry or Clark or Zippy the Pinhead, they will have me serving as a willing soldier in their army. Period. End of story.

So a bunch of Dean supporters here are feeling a little bruised today because Joe "Howard Loves Saddam" Lieberman barfed up his typical proto-Republican balderdash. Maybe some Dean supporters are feeling a little harried because a lot of people here are making foolish predictions that this Hussein capture damages the Dean campaign. I'll tellya, I want to borrow the crystal balls these people are using and take it to Vegas.

Who knows what set this particular torrent of gibberish off, beyond the fact that whenever something big happens out in the world, General Discussion becomes an alligator pit. But this "Nobody But Dean" stuff is for the birds. It leads me to suspect that the people saying that are likely experiencing their first trip through a primary season to which they are actually paying attention.

Forest or trees, folks. Choose one and choose wisely.

On edit: This also goes most strenuously for the "Anyone But Dean" contingent saying they won't vote for him if he's nominated.

[benburch]

1. Amen Brother!

To not vote against Bush in the General Election is actually treason.

-Ben

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reknewcomer]

154. How about a definition of treason to back it up

You know...in case somebody that is not as astute as us happens to ask why.

[eileen_d]

2. Here's a hint for those who don't get it:

[Clark Can WIN]

My crystal ball

I will loan it to you on one condition only. I get half of your take at Vegas.

[dsc]

3. Your computer must be editting out the ABD posts

that have cropped up. For the record I am ABB though I won't work with supporters of some candidates due to my assumption that some percentage behave like those here. But I will vote for, put signage in my yard for, and canvas for whomever the nominee is.

[WilliamPitt]

6. I would put the ABD posts in the same category

and will edit above to reflect that.

[dsc]

69. Thank you

I appreciate that.

[liberalhistorian]

4. Unfortunately, that is all too true,

Will, HOWEVER, the road's gone both ways today and there have been just as many slams against the Dean campaign and supporters in GD, if not more.

[cavebat2000]

5. I am a dean support but I agree.

ANYONE saying "I wont vote for him or her if they win" Is absolutely rediculous. Our country is going down the hole every minute a republican is in office and all we can do is squabble like little children? Ladies and Gentlemen we have a country to take back. United we stand, divided we fall... if i must remind you. Democrats are an endangered species now days, so we must all work together to beat Bush.

No more "I wont vote for anyone but..." crap. Period.

[cthrumatrix]

148. Dean supporter first....then ABB absolutely

[DancingBear]

7. I remember a poster writing about a gorilla hiding in the forest

Oh, that was me.

Well, I liked it, anyway. :)

[Bundbuster]

147. Your "gorilla" post is legend, DancingBear

I've forwarded it to everyone I know, and read it many times. It's one of those pieces which, if somehow every American could read it, would absolutely prevent any possibilty of a second bushCorp term. Thank you again for yout effort.

[muchacho]

8. for or against

I have bo horse in the race tus far but I can assure you I will vote. Even is it's against Bush...I'll vote.

[SahaleArm]

9. John Kerry on Faux News

"Governer Dean didn't know it was good to get rid of Saddam" (@ the 3:40 mark) :evilgrin:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2003_1214.html

[goobergunch]

10. Hear, hear.

This Dean supporter is ABB all the way...even if it's Lieberman.

[frank frankly]

11. NBD and ABD are both ridiculous and unhelpful

and ABB doesn't kick in until the nominee is picked by primary voting.

The Saddam news is what it is. I am glad for the way it helps our troops and perhaps will help Iraq citizens, but of course it justifies nothing and will likely not lead to a huge lasting boost for BushCo.

[VelmaD]

12. To reiterate what I just posted...

in another thread, I will remember these NBD people and kick their ass when we hook up in the concentration camp in 2005 after chimp-boy gets re-elected.

And I only mean that partly as a joke people. It's that fucking important that we beat Bush. I'm not sure our democracy, which is already on life-support and "circling the drain", can survive 4 more years of this. Being a grown-up means doing the difficult and responsible thing even when you don't want to. Be a grown-up and do what you have to and vote for the fucking Dem nominee no matter who it is or we all have to live with the consequences.

[liberalhistorian]

37. No, indeed it isn't a joke,

and I've long suspected that the Bushistas have been making "quiet" plans for their version of "re-education camps" for awhile now. And don't think each and every name on here isn't already on their list of "inmates", "special workers", what have you.

[THUNDER HANDS]

13. I think you hit the nail on the head

It leads me to suspect that the people saying that are likely experiencing their first trip through a primary season to which they are actually paying attention.

I think that's exactly what it is. Rookies.

Send em' back to the farm for more seasoning. :D

[GalleryGod]

26. Love The Analogy,'Rat!

:grouphug:

[Bucky]

143. Baseball analogy

"I think that's exactly what it is. Rookies. Send em' back to the farm for more seasoning."

In a democracy, Rat, there is no farm league. The only way people get seasoned is to stick with politics thru a losing campaign and keep on working for America after their hearts have been broken.

Already I see Dr. Dean as doing us all a big favor this year.

[bearfartinthewoods]

151. i understand your sarcasm but i still hope he doesn't do us that favor n/t

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julien Sorel]

17. I think this is a case of a pot calling porcelain black.

[PurityOfEssence]

33. If they weren't so offensive, they wouldn't draw such fire

Dean literally entered the race spitting in the eye of the others, claiming to represent the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party", and he's spared no dudgeon or vitriol on them at every turn. You don't tell people that they're cowards, lightweights and turncoats and get a free ride.

This is beyond an issue of fairplay; it's extreme selfish recklessness, and it flies in the very face of pluralism itself.

[never cry wolf]

81. Well, at the time....

...most Dems were supplicant towards the boy king. He was the first to call him out and I happen to believe that the success of his campaign to date has helped greatly to form that as an issue for all the candidates.

He stood up at a time when no one else except Dennis dared and succeeded in garnering support due to it. The others had no choice to follow his lead.

Just my analysis, I am not a deanie but seriously appreciate his framing the bushista failures as an issue. That his striking a chord with so many did pull the others to the left as far as the war is concerned is undeniable.

[PurityOfEssence]

127. So explain now

That was then, this is now.

"The war" is not the only issue, nor should it be.

All four Senators fought both tax cuts. Although they all voted for the Patriot Act, so did every Senator but Russ Feingold. Dean was not conclusive on this point at the time, yet Kucinich DID vote against.

John Edwards was harder on Ashcroft in the hearings than anyone, and he voted against the nomination. The rest of the candidates didn't just "lay down", yet Dean has been very deft with his usage of these facts.

The various members of Congress there fought on many occasions in difficult situations against the regime, yet they're dismissed with the blanket condemnation of having kneeled before the king. It's an unfair and wildly incorrect accusation and it belies serious character issues on the part of this man and his supporters. When coupled with the outrage he displays at having to defend some of his more questionable political actions, it's just shrill hypocrisy.

There's also the simplistic calculus of this: Dean didn't have to stand up for any of these votes, and he has no legislative voting record or history of initiatives to show to contrast himself with them. To say how he'd vote on this or that is all very nice, but I simply can't give him the blanket trust of taking his word for it; he's deigned himself entitled to wildly distort the records of others, even to the degree of refusing to acknowledge to Kucinich that he'd been smeared when confronted with the indisputable evidence in a public debate.

Dean shoots off his mouth, and as if that's bad enough, he GETS IT WRONG on many occasions. It's sort of like the policy of pre-emption: if you're going to attack, you have to be correct.

Although I fully understand your point about the exciting distinction early on, my rejoinder is this: is that accurate, and how does it have any bearing on what's going on now?

[Julien Sorel]

15. They are the True Democrats, from the

Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. A vote for anyone but Dean is a vote for Republicans. So their position makes perfect sense.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

106. Please

Most of us don't feel that way AT ALL. I can't speak for anyone else but every time I read any kind of "Dean or nobody" post I cringe. It's completely embarrassing, and it makes people like me (whose first priority is getting rid of Bush) have to work overtime to try and rehabilitate the general image of Dean supporters as a bunch of brainwashed psychotics.

I'm sorry the hard-liners have colored your perception of the rest of us --- I can't say I blame you.

[drfemoe]

114. But Clark wasn't in the democratic party when Dean said that

eom .

[Bucky]

144. meow

eom .

[FrenchieCat]

16. Bottom line is get rid of Bush, and

THE FOREST I CAN SEE......THE TREES ARE NOT IN MY WAY!

[kayleybeth]

18. I've seen that too

Scary stuff. I hope they are not serious.

BTW, when is your new book coming out?

[Malikshah]

19. Cast aspersions--but

Do it equally. This kind of one sided attack is what you're railing against, is it not? Then please try and be equal. Lord knows there are any number of threads created just to destroy Dean--not to say that ABD is no de rigeur here on the DU now...

C'mon--we're better than that.

We are all in this together and should remember that.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Read the post again

[Malikshah]

39. Did--but sorry

Not good enough in my book. (Not that it matters)

It's akin to ripping someone a new one, and then at the very end, saying "just kidding, y'know I love ya"

The title is what folks read--the title is what resonates.

Furthermore, prior to edit--the title and substance shows that my initial response still holds merit.

We're all in this together and need to look at each candidate and treat each candidate and their supporters in the same way. To date this has yet to be done--hence the hard feelings, the defensiveness, the nastiness, the self-destruction.

Folks can waste as much time as they want analyzing and wringing their hands--until they actually take action---and post in a less emotional fashion (your post, btw, was not emotional--but it leads to a relatively irrational "debate" by others--i.e. instigation)
then we might as well get ready for the furtherance of the regime.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

21. Well heres my reasoning

Many people were not interested in the political system. Many people weren't republicans or democrats. Dean has drawn these people into the democratic process. Before many people were politically apathetic but Dean and it's movement has drawn people out.

So i can understand why people would say "I'll only vote for Dean." Without Dean many people wouldn't even think about voting because they are apathetic.

[SheilaT]

22. For what it's worth

some people here have said they won't support Dean at all, no matter what. I just hope that in the end we all unite behind the nominee, no matter who he is.

[WillyT]

23. I Tend To Agree, And Am Trying To Calm Down, But...

I think a lot of this had more to do with the Dean\Osama Ad that some Dem political operatives put out there in the ether. I can't see why anybody would go NBD over the capture of Saddam, but I'm still wondering how to repond to that bottom feeding advertisement. Besides goin surfin on election day!

:shrug:

[creativelcro]

24. Same here! This is primary time. It's OK to fight for your candidate.

It's part of the process, even if it sucks up energy and it creates tension. No matter what we say at this time, the vast majority of us will be ok with whomever gets the nomination and push for him/her.

[PurityOfEssence]

25. The curse of the downtrodden

"I've been hurt and marginalized all my life and now it's my turn!"

"None of the rest of you have suffered like I have, how DARE you attack my guy; you're attacking all that's good and true."

"Look at what he's done; nobody's got that kind of bandwagon!"

And, and of course, the trusty: "He tells it like it is, and all the rest of you are a bunch of lily-livered candy-asses; you're inferior, and we're gonna tell you who to vote for and what policies to support, and if you don't love us as we scream at you and call you cockroaches, then it's just more proof of your calumny!"

Etc., etc., etc.

I just hope these angels turn out to vote should their guy not be the standard-bearer.

[KC21304]

60. Nicely said.

[XanaDUer]

79. Thank you POE,

you nailed it.

[jumptheshadow]

149. Another good one

"I can't be bothered to answer your questions or concerns about Dean. Look it up on his website or Google it."

That's why if Dean does get the nomination -- and that's a big if -- some of us from the other candidates' camps who have more maturity and patience are going to have to step up and work with the questioners and the dissenters.

P.S. Thank you for your great posts.

[K-W]

27. The Dean movement has scared me from the start

for many reasons, this is one of them. That beautiful political passion gets alot less beautiful when it turns sour. Dean tapped into important sentiments, but by associating with them with himself he created a following. The problem with creating a following around one man, is that it creates conflict within the party and bad feelings, especially if he fails.

[LuminousX]

28. Links? Evidence?

I see more Dean voters having to say they will support whoever gets the nomination more often than this.

AND, if a few voters say that, they are not the official spokespeople of all of us other Dean voters.

Of all the issues we are dealing with, this is a concern? WTF?

ON EDIT
I feel this thread is yet another Dean voter trap.

[WilliamPitt]

32. Here you go

"Today, I have made an important decision. I will support only Howard Dean or Wesley Clark for President. I will not support John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, Dick Gephardt or John Edwards. No matter. Under no circumstance. Some of you will attack me. But I think they have sunk to a new low. They are everything that is wrong about the Democratic Party. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=908771&mesg_id=908771

"I'm with you---I'm ABLKEG. Anybody but Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards, and Gephardt."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=908771#908889

"Me three. I think Jeter has the vision of what the Dean campaign is about. Clark, though I sort of like him, I do not yet know him well enough to back as a VP for Dean."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=908771#909054

[LuminousX]

43. Doesn't back up your premise

Anybody but Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards, and Gephardt does not equal Nobody But Dean.

I reiterate. If one or two people say this, it is not a 'movement' and they don't represent the average Dean voter on DU. People say extreme things when they feel pressured. The volume of anti-Dean threads has grown to a fascinating level. I'm not opposed to it, but for some people, it may be just enough pressure for them to make statements akin to (F*ck, y'all, nothing you say is going to sway my vote!)

So you can highlight this very minor portion, ignoring many more important things. That is everyone's right. Questionable use of energy, in my opinion.

[WilliamPitt]

48. Um...

from my original post:

"All of a sudden in the ranks of Dean supporters on DU, I am seeing these sentiments popping up. "I'll only vote for Dean" or "If it isn't Dean, I won't vote for Clark or Kerry or Gephart" or permutations thereof."

[LuminousX]

53. Your focus is on NBD, as your title states

From the 'permutations' end, you are saying the Anyone But Lieberman camp is equally off base. I would agree with you there, as anything but ABB is wasted effort.

I question the whole basis of the thread. This post spotlights a very small group of people over opinions they have an absolute right to hold.

[LuminousX]

55. I appreciate the Edited version of the post

ABD is more dangerous than NBD, because NBD is an empty threat.

[Logansquare]

64. So, out of hundreds of Dean supporters in DU

You've decided that handfull (three?) sourpusses are representative of us all? I'm really disappointed Mr. Pitt, because I actually thought you were one of the few people who was capable of being fair and pragmatic while letting the circular firing squad have their stupid, self-destructive fun. It would never occur to me to refuse to vote for the Democratic nominee whomever he/she turns out to be. You are going to have to deal with the fact that I *will* be holding my nose if that person isn't Howard Dean, but so what? ABB, all the way.

[curse10]

88. Don't forget these!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=895149#909456

"If ANY of the three losers (Kerry, Gep or LIEberman).... is responsible for that ad against Dean, they just lost my vote and I mean even if they were to get the nomination. Putting a lowlife like that in office wouldn't be much of an improvement over the pustule sucking moron we have there now."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=903929

"Just watched arrogant, Lurch-like, Kerry on the enemy's Sunday pundit show take cheap shots at Dean like, "Dean said Saddam doesn't matter," or other nice examples of Democratic disunity like, "Dean called Palestinians freedom fighters," etc.

I WILL NOT vote for this man no matter what."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=904533#905344

"Kerry sucks

How can he be proud of taking out someone who did no harm to the United States and a person who has the right to govern his country anyway he pleases?

People actually support this jackass?

I won't be voting for Kerry under any circumstance..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=904533#905206

"Well, no way in hell I'll vote for him now, either."

People are constantly saying they'd never vote for a certain candidate no matter what. It happens everyday in GD and it's disgusting- no matter who the candidate is.

[LuminousX]

137. So you equally denounce ABD?

[wndycty]

29. Will I am surprised you are surprised

In the past I have regretfully said that Dean followers resemble a cult and this "Nobody But Dean" attitude is a major reason why. I am sick and tired of being called a Republican or Rove operative everytime a question or criticize Dean. I make no secret about my support of Gen. Clark, but I maintain Dean as my #2 and he is someone I wanted to support initially but he never moved me the way Gen. Clark does. That being said I am prepared to support whomever secures the nomination but I fear that there is a significant number of Dean supporters who will support Dean and only Dean. When you look at the Dean blogs and see language like "when they attack Dean, they are really attacking you" it frightens me. What has happened to political discourse in this country.


I will continue to challenge Dean on the DU because if he deserves the nomination it will be necessary for him and his supporters to understand the concerns of supporters of other candidates.

Skinner setting new rules as it relates to civility on the DU was a wake up call for me, I have to watch what I say and avoid the name calling but my concerns about the a significant number of Dean supporters and their support of the eventual nominee if it is not Dean really scares the crap out of me.

PLEASE NOTE: This is not about all Dean supporters only those who refuse to support anyone but Dean.

[Ramsey]

41. And Bush supporters don't??

Scare the crap out of you that is?? There are a lot more of them than there are Dean supporters after all.

I think the vast majority of us are very reasonable, intelligent people. I know the people in my Philly4Dean group are. We aren't brainwashed nutjobs, unlike many of the fundies and neocons that lick Bush's feet.

We've chosen to support Dean because we like his drive, his dedication, his ideas and his policies. In other words, we've given it some thought.

Please ease up on the inflammatory rhetoric and apocalyptic predictions!!

[wndycty]

45. Did you read my entire post. . .

. . .if you are not one of those who said you would not support the Democrat nominee if it were not Dean I was not talking about you.

[Ramsey]

30. This Deanie is ABB

Will,

I think you are overreacting to a small (likely disruptor related) emotion. I have and always will be ABB. I have chosen to work for Dean in the primary season, but I will support whoever wins the nomination; even Holy Joe is preferable to Bush Inc. (Although supporting Joe will require a clothespin on my nose.)

How about the Anybody but Dean movement?? Can we stifle that faction too?

How about giving us Dean supporters a little credit.

[WilliamPitt]

35. "likely disruptor related"

See my evidence above. If they're disruptors, they're very familiar ones who have been around a good while. Otherwise, they are DUers in good standing.

[Ramsey]

54. Three people are evidence of a movement??

You've linked to the comments of 3 people on a single thread. That's reason for concern that there's some major, mainstream "Nobody But Dean" movement?

:shrug:

[LuminousX]

66. As Will said, it my come from current pressures

And since we know it is empty threats, since we know it is such a small group of people, since we know the ABD movement is more dangerous to the party as a whole...

Why the focus on NBD?

[Jack Rabbit]

31. Thanks, Will

I ahve been saying all along that if the French Communists could support deGaulle in order to get rid of Hitler, I'll vote for Lieberman to get rid of Bush. I'd prefer somebody else, especially after what Lieberman said today, but we have do whatever it takes.

If Bush were just another conservative president, that might be another matter. Maybe then, the purists could afford to be purists. However, Bush is a threat to American democracy. We can't afford to look for the perfect candidate. We need to concern ourselves with who can beat him.

ABB, all the way, brothers and sisters.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

34. Could they possibly be would-be Greens or Naderites?

Might these all-or-nothing, uncompromising Dean supporters (who I feel represent a very small minority of Dean people) simply be comprised of previously disaffected Greens or individuals in the far left camp who might not even be long-time Democrats? I'm a strong Clark supporter myself but I'm willing to support Dean, Kerry, or anyone else who gets the nomination. Cults of personality have no place in the coming race.

[oasis]

133. IMO, there are some signs of Naderite mentality. (n/t)

[MuseRider]

36. GUILTY

I am guilty of having said that I would not vote for Dean, usually when being told my vote for Kucinich is a vote for Bush* by several Dean supporters and even once last night without a lot of provocation. So, I admit to having a bit of a temper and I would guess that is probably what most of this is. It is wrong for any of us to react like that but we are all rather on edge these days. I will publicly apologize for my temper and try to hold my tongue when my temper flares. Yikes, this is nasty but then again it is the primary. I have a feeling that when it comes down to it, Bush* is way too scary to pull any other lever but the Democrat one. After this, I will see where I stand.

[JohnKleeb]

40. This Kucinich supporter will support the nominee

Though I disagree with some of them on issues, as Jack Rabbit says if the French commies could handle DeGaulle to get rid of Hitler, lets work together. I may be idealistic as they come but I am ABB.

[stickdog]

38. Stop patronizing all of us, Will. You are better than this.

You know as well as the rest of us that the NBD sentiment was in response to the Osama attack ads, not Saddam's capture.

[WilliamPitt]

46. The point remains the same, though

You act as if the concept of the attack ad was invented solely to defile Dean. If y'all cqan't handle this coming from the Dems, stick, you're going to get eviscerated by what the GOP has in store.

[stickdog]

141. I don't disagree. I just don't like Dems attacking Dems like Pugs. (nt)

[JustJoe]

42. Come on. There are plenty more ABDs than there are NBDs.

You should be trying to prop up the
sinking Kerry rather then going after Dean *yet again*
by going after a small minority of his backers.

[kentuck]

44. That type of attitude is detrimental to the Dean campaign...

It can only cause him to lose support. I hope those that are thinking along those lines will reconsider their position.

[Duncan Grant]

47. A sweeping generalization...

as far as I'm concerned. I'm one Dean supporter (of many here at DU) who would never give serious credence to "nobody but Dean". To characterize Dean supporters (based on a few emotional post here at DU) as not being able to see the forest for the trees is simply BS. It's also unfair to the majority of people here at DU, least of which are the Dean supporters.

Let's accept this overly emotional reaction to today's events for what it is: reactionary, undisciplined, and in some cases opportunistic. People are entitled to their feelings...ask them again tomorrow and they'll probably express a more thoughtful opinion.

BIG PICTURE folks is still 11 months away. Let's remember that we have every reason to remain friends and allies. Contrary to popular belief; we can endure the process of the primary without exploiting perceived weaknesses in each other for our own candidate's advantage.

[Cheswick2.0]

49. don't you ever get tired of lecturing people

you're not Gandalf, really. The Dean people have taken a lot of shit today and the disruptors have shown up in mass. You have been here a long time, you know who the long time DUers are. If you see someone you know in that kind of distress, why not lend a hand rather than indulging in more self-riotious insulting rants?

[markus]

50. Anybody but Lieberman

That's the bottom line. If somehow he manages to engineer the nomination, the party loses, because the core of new activitsts and voters Dean has energized will bolt the party.

It's that simple.

Anyone in the uppper ranks of the Democratic Party who thinks otherwise is more delusional than the Bush White House.

[CWebster]

51. This is nothing but flamebait

Take a look at the smug responses from other camps all basking in their anti-Dean glow. It is an attack on Dean supporters allowed to stand while my post was removed for countering and not keeping with the program. So Pitt can lead an attack thread and be free from challenge?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

74. How in the world is this an attack thread?

[rucky]

145. Can't have a flame war against a STRAWMAN

NBD exists in overactive imaginations & idle threats from a few stray drama queens.

[Nlighten1]

52. The flame wars around here are getting out of hand

I support Dean but for Jeebus sake I still like other candidates. This bickering over candidates is so childish it is unbelievable.

[deutsey]

56. Sigh. This place is getting increasingly ridiculous

Let's hope that the larger population isn't so stupid as the Nobody But Dean and the Anybody But Dean contingents here on DU.

If they are, we're doomed.

[KittyWampus]

57. This Started With The Attack Ad

That some of us suspect Dean's' own campaign may have produced... using 3 ex-staffers from Kerry & Gep. There's no evidence pointing to Dean but then there's no evidence pointing to Kerry or Gep either.

If you haven't denounced that ad "vigoursly & vociferously" you are a traitor to the cause...

And ALL candidates MUST renounce this ad or they will not be worthy of a Dean supporter's vote.

I even read one poster musing about how Dean supporters warrant a third party....

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

58. Believe it

Remember when Dean said his supporters were not "transferable"?

[Redleg]

59. I think some Dean supporters are pissed off about the poor treatment

some of the other Dem candidates have given Dean. That may explain their reluctance to support another of those candidates (especially that rat-bastard Lieberman).

[wndycty]

65. You know Dean has not necessarily bean that gracious to the others. . .

. . .turnabout is fair play.

[JanMichael]

62. While I really do agree with you. Look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=909472

Amazing ain't it? The fuckin' nutters are running amok around here.

[creativelcro]

67. There are lots of people with < 200 posts or so

who are behaving very erratically around here. It seems that something happened a couple of weeks ago that caused an inflow of weirdos to this site. Any ideas ?

[janx]

97. You are not kidding. And when the Gore endorsement

happened, that shot everything over the top.

[Zomby Woof]

63. I've gone after Dean myself (to say the least)

But hell, even I have never been that extreme. One thing I loathe about politics is the crybabies with their "I will pick up my ball and go home!" mentality if things don't fly their way.

There's no crying in politics.

[boxster]

68. Geez, Will - you were treated like a God here...

until you had the nerve to support a candidate that wasn't Dean. Now, some people think you're just another one of the wackos! }(

Seriously, though, I have seen similar sentiments (NBD & ABD) and agree that the #1 goal has to be to defeat Bush.

I think that most people will come to their senses once the nomination process ends and will support the Democratic candidate for President, regardless of who it is. I know I will.

[deutsey]

71. WIth all due respect to Will, I know God

and Will Pitt is no god.

:evilgrin:

[boxster]

73. Hehe.

Hell, he's not even Jack Kennedy!

:D

[SadEagle]

99. However,

He might just be John Kerry ;-)

[WilliamPitt]

75. heeheehee

:)

[VelmaD]

82. I don't know...

he starts almost as many flamewars around here as religion does. ;-)

[LuminousX]

76. I never felt he was God, and I only treat God like God

And I this has nothing to do with who he supports and everything about a post that if it came from anyone else, would have sunk to the depths rather quickly.

[Democrats unite]

70. There were three threads yesterday attacking the DNC

Care to guess wich supporters were doing it? Hint it starts with a D & I don't mean Democrat. Actually asking people not to support them becasue of the ads comming out against you know who. none of the other candidates have benn implacated in this.

And it gives off the theme NBD!

I will say it again, without the DNC no candidate is going to to win the election!

here is one of the links.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=893881


P.S. this has noting to do with the DNC!

[LuminousX]

78. That is an attack against the DNC? That is attack against lack of action.

I guess the DNC wants this kind of tripe.

*shrug*

Things will change soon enough.

[Democrats unite]

80. Thank you for proving my point.

And I will say right here and now lets every one stop supporting the DNC, that will definetly put A democrat in the White House next election.

Was that to much sarcasm?

[LuminousX]

110. Your welcome

I find it fascinating that my one post has such tremendous evidenciary weight when there are literally thousands of other posts contrary to mine. Cool. I like power.

[never cry wolf]

72. How about NBP

Nobody but Pitt, you are right on it Will. Usually I read responses to a post before I add to the thread but I will read after I post this time.

People, we need to keep our eyes on the prize here. The Osama/Dean ad put out by a group that is allegedly one of our own is thoroughly disgusting and I suspect a rove project. But even if not, there could be NO ONE of the current candidates worse that the slime currently squatting in the WH.

I know that for many who have made up their mind it may feel that someone putting forth a positive thought on a different candidate may seem like a slur upon theirs, but really in truth, all the positive aspects of all of our potential nominees are slurs on bush in comparison to his plethora of deficiencies.

In some deference to the NBD crowd, I have also seen alot of NBC talk here from the Clarkies, but two wrongs do not take our country back. It is all very counterproductive.

I am still undecided and the main reason for that is because I am like a kid in the candy store. Every time I look at a candidate I think of how much better he/she would be than what we have now squatting in DC and I fall in love. (ceptin for one maybe, but he'd still be an improvement.)

Early on I was leaning towards Dean. Personally I think he would make a fine President after bunnypants, but then that comparison applies to all of our peeps. I am still trying to decipher who I think would make the BEST President but after the last 3 years I think I already know who is the worst.

Get with it, keep your eyes on the prize here folks!!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

77. I think somebody needs a big sloppy hug.

It's time for Deanoacs to get gracious
and start giving non-Deanoacs a little
extra elbow room to work out their resentments
and disappointments. Imagineing a movement in
the posts of three little Deanoacs is a sign that
somebody is not getting a doggone hug when
he needs one.

[AP]

83. Discount those posts. The might be people who never intended to vote for a

Dem in the first place.

I should add that I haven't seen any of the NBD posts, so I hope I'm not defaming any decent people. If I am it is not intentional.

[Myra]

84. Good post, thanks Will.

I'd be disappointed if my candidate wasn't the nominee,
but I'd totally support Dean if he's the nominee.

This'd be a good time for Americans to grow up and make
adult decisions.

[littlejoe]

85. This is a thinly veiled ploy

to discredit Dean supporters. A "journalist" with an agenda is no journalist at all. It's what they call a hatchetman.

[WilliamPitt]

86. Mwwwahhh hah hah hah

As ever, littlejoe, you pierce the veil. :crazy:

[littlejoe]

116. You mispelled mwahh

[CWebster]

90. Watchout,

I got deleted for saying the same thing.

[unfrigginreal]

104. There's another name that they're known by too

there's even a website named after them.

[CWebster]

87. It is curious,

post after post reflecting Right-wing talking posts to bring down Dean, post after post succumbing to Ring-wing spin that all is lost for the Democrats, and what do all the Democrats jump on board to ride? A thread to attack Dean supporters for not keeping with the program and threatening Democrat chances in '04.

[wndycty]

91. Right wing this, right wing that. . .

. . .can any Democrat challenge or question Dean or his supporters without being accused of following right wing talking points?

[CWebster]

94. You mean like he is too angry or too liberal or unelectible?

[wndycty]

96. I challenge you to tell me when I have said too angry or. . .

. . .too liberal? You can't because I have never said that. I just feel that Clark is better. And for that reason I am buying into Rove's master plan?

[wyldwolf]

92. Dean criticism = "rightwing talking points." Criticism of any other ...

...candidate = "hard evidence and legitimate concern for the party." :eyes:

[CWebster]

103. well, I'll take it from whense it comes

Pitt asks why this is an attack thread, but look at the responses defending the attack. They are the perennial attackers of Dean. The usual suspects.

There is no doubt the heat on Dean since the Gore endorsement has increased, but now it is just a shrill refrain about how everyone fears Dean will lose or how the Republicans want him because he is so easy to beat. He is too angry, he is too liberal, he is to conservative, he is a racist, he wants to destroy medicare, social security, he is a draft dodger,it's over for Dean because they got Saddam. Dean was wrong, Dean will lose, Dean will lose, Dean will lose...We are going to lose, Bush will win...

Christ, who needs Republicans when the Democrats are more than willing to do their dirty work with no prompting whatsoever.

The goring of Dean is underway and you are all willing and ready participants.

[wndycty]

105. Hey Web. . .

. . .and I am waiting for an answer to my question. If you are going to imply that I said that deal was too liberal and too angry I would assume you would back it up. So I am waiting.

[wyldwolf]

108. Well, it does become painfully obvious...

...that while most supporters of other candidates understand there is a fight to win the nominations, some very vocal Dean supporters give the impression that the nomination is already Dean's and to criticize him is to criticize he who will unseat Bush. They react with the same shock and "how dare you" attitude Bush supporters give when their man is dogged.

These same Dean supporters cannot fathom their guy losing, will not accept the possibility of it being so, and have on many occasions said they would not vote for anyone other than Dean. To me, THIS a betrayal although they act as though criticism of Dean is the betrayal - while criticism of the other Dems is legitimate.

[littlejoe]

117. Not only is it curious, but I have a distinct distaste

for the willful spread of disinformation.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

118. A pun.

[littlejoe]

120. I am suspiscious of people who rely on other peoples quotes

to express what they themselves cannot articulate.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

121. I am suspicious of people who pun

and then try to pitt the pun against a quote.

[JustJoe]

128. How coudst he pit the pun against the quote

if he yet sees not the pun he dropped
and takes the quote for the post?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

129. Aye. To step on the same Rivers twice

one needst to have both feet on the ground
and not in one's hole of articulation.

[retyred]

89. Will, I think what you're seeing

is a gut response from some dean supporters due to the announcement today and the shear numbers of threads out here today that are pointing out that dean just lost his edge, I think once the threads settle down, these few will reconsider.

I have been one of deans harshest critics on this board for reasons stated by many on deans electability, and while I get into heated exchanges time and again, I don't see any of these people as wanting another four years of bush as president.

As a Clark supporter I'm willing to give these few the benifit of the doubt in believing it was a statement said in the heat of the moment.

There was a time when I have said the very same thing with regard to dean in the heat of the moment, I later rethought my statement and with a clear head admitted my head up my ass mouth movement as being the wrong thing to say, and yes I am now and have been ABB.

Having said all that, should my assumption be wrong and their statement remain their last word on the matter, I for one have no use for a person that would put their personal feelings above what's best for this country.

On Edit: It's one thing to agree to disagree and quite another to say my way or the highway


george bush…pResident?

retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[KaraokeKarlton]

93. I implied I was NBD

but it was only to piss off the ABD people.

Although I will say this...any candidate who is involved in that fruitloop anti Dean group running that Osama ad won't get my vote if they are the nominee. I'll write in Dean, even if there isn't a line. I'll just write HOWARD DEAN in sharpie right across the ballot. My reason...anyone who actually thinks Bush is better than Dean would be on anything and then says it outloud deserves 4 more years of Bush.

[unfrigginreal]

95. Gee, thanks for the afterthought about that other contingent

although I'm sure you don't find them nearly as threatening. What do you suggest for all of those that are "terrified" or was that "terrorized" of a Dean nomination?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

98. Who is William Saletan in your sig?

I think I should know who he is. He funny.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

100. Well

THIS Deanie will be proud to work his ass off for the nominee, whoever it is. He's my first choice but I have never felt like it's him or nobody.

I haven't been on this board much today so maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen much "nobody but Dean" sentiment --- if it IS out there I would encourage my fellow Dean supporters to drop that shit, post haste. "Anybody But Bush" applied yesterday as it applies today and will apply tomorrow.

I personally don't think it's going to affect his candidacy at all (or Bush's, for that matter), but even if it does and he doesn't become the nominee I've already made peace with that scenario and am ready to make the best of it.

[janx]

101. Thanks for this post. Most Dean voters are not interested

in such polarized rhetoric, but a few are reacting.

DU has been very chaotic of late. But it's wise of you to try to herd people together again. I don't know if it'll work, but your attempt is laudable, and I mean that.

[Adjoran]

102. Well said, Will

There are some Dean supporters - a minority of them, to be sure, but not an insignificant one - who act as if any criticism of Dean is dirty-politics-as-usual, and mark the critics as unfit to participate in the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

If a person does not intend to support the Democratic nominee, then that person is not a Democrat.

[jonnyblitz]

107. wow I must have missed those threads. I only saw the ABD ones

doesnt mean they werent there I just wasnt aware of them. silly sentiment none the less...I am just amazed at the virulent dislike and hatred for Dean by some DUers.

[CWebster]

109. My sentiments as well

Just another excuse for a Dean bash.

[wndycty]

111. Answers?

Am I going to get answers?

[creativelcro]

112. Out of curiosity, did you donate money to Dean ?

Wondering if that makes it harder to even think about supporting anybody else later next year... Seriously. I currently support Dean, but have not given money to anybody yet...

[Donkeyboy75]

153. I did

indeed donate money to Dean (a lot, relative to my meagre earnings). And I will stand behind anyone who captures the Democratic nomination. Look, I know it actually IS important who represents the Democratic party in the 2004 election, but it is even MORE important to get the chimp OUT of the White House. I think emotions are running high because our candidates are battling each other. I'm pretty confident most of us will rally behind the nominee after all the dust has settled. Use reasoning and logic, not emotions.

[JNelson6563]

113. Anybody but Dean

There's a lot more of them than Nobody But Dean., I can understand why you would choose to focus on this minority and mention the larger segment as a mere afterthought. ;-)

Julie

[quaker bill]

115. I support Dean but still hold to ABB.

That being said, the trashing of Dean has gone a bit beyond the pale. Every and any excuse to find Dean unelectable or otherwise objectionable has been fully explored repeatedly. Every event is explored from multiple directions as to how it will lead to Dean's ulitmate undoing nearly every day.

The only other candidate I have seen called unelectable is DK. Will, even that is rare.

Sane, normal, thoughtful Democrats have chosen to support Howard Dean in large numbers. They have done so completely rationally and in full possession of their higher faculties. While rhetorical indulgence is both the nature of any primary campaign and is further exacerbated by the nature of this sort of forum, the disrespect for the considered opinions of loyal democrats in evidence in some postings does no honor to the poster or the process in itself.

That being said, I do not judge the candidates by the virulence of some of their supporters. All of them would make a better President than Bush*.

[LeahMira]

119. Of course they will...

All of a sudden in the ranks of Dean supporters on DU, I am seeing these sentiments popping up. "I'll only vote for Dean" or "If it isn't Dean, I won't vote for Clark or Kerry or Gephart" or permutations thereof.

I'm certain that just about everyone here will vote for the Democratic candidate whoever s/he is. After the nomination, there will be a few mumblings of discontent, but they will die down and people will come around.

I do wonder if it's a good idea to take a public stand like "I'll only vote for Dean" though. It makes it a little harder to back off later on if need be. I hope those folks won't just disappear from the DU board if Dean is not nominated... and the same for any of the other candidates. We all sometimes run at the mouth, and if "your" candidate doesn't get the nomination, YOU are still needed. Maybe we all need to resolve that there will absolutely be no hard feelings or "told ya so" kind of stuff, and no matter who wins or loses the nomination, everyone is welcome to help us all get rid of Bush.

[adadem]

140. never mind

[windansea]

122. confused

which is it?

gloves off or group hug?

[WilliamPitt]

123. Gloves off for the primaries

Group hug after Boston. But that's pretty clear, right? Right.

[savistocate]

134. Questions

Asking with out sarcasm--Will,how do you resolve that Kerry reportedly named James Baker !!*%^$((* III as someone he'd ask to join his adm?? Also a major disappointment for me is reading in the Rolling Stone intrvw --responding re Schwarrze
, he knows him and he likes him and he is a "capable " person.
Unless all those women hired creative writers their stories ring true. Assaulting women a very likely element in the man's character, I cannot imagine "liking" such a socially defective guy.
I question why he'd say that--he might have just given the neutral response,his final remark, he could understand anger of voters.
But even that is bullshit.

I'm liking Dean AND Clark. Dean was as Clark entered the race very respectful. I don't hear much contray now, but disappointed with Clark in a few statements on Dean of late.

[VelmaD]

125. Think of this like family...

you fight with your brothers and sisters but when somebody threatens them from outside you close ranks. The Democratic party is like one great big dysfunctional family. We pick on each other and yell at each other and never agree on anything. (Like Will Rogers said "I'm not a member of an organized political party...I'm a Democrat.) But when it's all over and we've picked a nominee...then it's time to pull together against the common enemy.

I've always found that if I think about it that way I don't take it all so personally. :-)

[mrgorth]

124. I only saw one or 2

and it was mostly regarding that stinking ad. The line was that they wouldn't vote for anyone who didn't denounce it. Now, I didn't watch the ad because I knew how mad it'd make me but if I saw it, who knows. I think we're all ABLOB, that incudes money and support.

[burning bush]

126. Anyone But Bush,

Even Liebermen. Always have been, always will be.

Still, I'm all Dean, all the time!

[ozone_man]

130. One thing that you are missing Will

is that alot of people that vote Democratic occasionally are attracted to a particular candidate. They might consider themselves to be Independents, swing voters, etc., and might find themselves voting for Ralph Nader or a liberal Republican (Jim Jeffords/VT), or even a Socialist (Bernard Sanders/VT). And I've voted for all three in the last several years. I've even voted Progressive instead of Dean once (the horrors).

It might be more expected of party loyalists to vote ABB, or even ABLB, but don't expect Independents to fall in line. I only see one other Dem who I could get behind and he is Kucinich at this point, not that it is cast in stone. The more dirt flung by this IWR crowd against Dean for his anti-Iraq war stance only reaffirms my position.

[HuckleB]

131. It's just a response to the Anybody But Dean crowd, nothing more.

[farmbo]

132. Never voted for a Repub in my life...but when I saw the Bin Ladin ad...

...That changed things for me.

If Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman or Clark (or any combination thereof) are responsible for that garbage, I will NOT support them.

Sorry, we already have a soulless group of demogogues in the Whitehouse, we don't need another. Anyone who would authorize that ad has lost my vote...and my respect.

Anyways...if they denounce the ad and open their records (and those of their contributors) to help identify the guilty parties... all will be forgiven.

Saddam changed nothing. But Osama (the ad) changed everything.

[Lisa0825]

135. Without taking the time to read this long thread.....

First I will say I agree with Ben: To not vote against Bush in the General Election is actually treason.

Second, as a very active Dean supporter in the Houston area, and one of those Texas Rangers, and a Dean blogger, I do not know a single person in any of those circles who would not vote against Bush, no matter who the candidate is. I have never met a NBD, because most of us came to support Dean based on our fear of Bush dismantling Democracy.

I don't recall seeing any NBD here, but this forum moves so fast, that I could have missed it. However, I have seen PLENTY of ABD posts. So, I'd have to say in my own experience that Dean supporters seem to be more loyal than some others to the ABB cause.

[Woodstock]

136. Just another thread to divide rather than unite

I haven't exactly been hanging out here all day, but was this thread really necessary? Whatever happened today, I'm sure the reaction of what I bet was just a few Dean supporters was just emotion. I know TONS of Dean supporters, and we are all going to support whoever the Democratic nominee is.

[OneBlueSky]

138. what a lot of people don't seem to realize . . .

is just how slim our chances of winning in 2004 are . . . Bush has every advantage -- incumbency, money, the media, voting machines in key states, and now the capture of Sadaam . . . not to mention the ability to choreograph pretty much any crisis he cares to, and probably even the timely capture of Osama . . .

we all know what a terrible president Bush is, but many, many people don't see it that way because they get all of their information from television, including a substantial portion from Faux . . . frankly, it's going to take a minor miracle for us to win next year, but I will support anyone the Democrats run against Bush . . . like Will, my preference has been John Kerry, but I'm prepared to re-think that and consider whether Clark may be the stronger candidate . . .

if Dean wins the nomination, I'll work for him and vote for him, but in my heart I believe it will be a lost cause . . . I'll also work and vote for Kerry, Clark, or even Joe Lieberman because, like Will, my one and only objective is to get Bush out of office so that he won't have four more years to complete his devastation of the economy, the environment, civil liberties, and a host of other things . . .

we must keep our eyes on the prize, put aside our personal preferences, and get behind whoever will give Bush the best run . . . to say that you won't vote for anyone but so-and-so is moronic and self-defeating . . .

[Hep]

139. It's kinda funny

considering the general mood towards Dean supporters shared not only by people at DU but also some of their candidates. You think of people as idiots, cultists, kneejerkers, and then wonder why they're not inclined to support your guy.

"It's the primaries. Deal with it" doesn't cut it for me. I never signed on to have any sense of civilivty or unity mortgaged until the GE. Frankly, I've given up on DU being a place for intelligent debate, and people I once saw as influential and worthy of respect have allowed their demons to shout down their angels to butcher a Sorkin cliche.

Yeah, I'm gonna hold my nose and vote for Kerry or Gephardt, probably. I'll be happier voting for anyone else. But I'm going to work my ass off to prevent having to vote for anyone but Dean. And frankly, I'm confident.

Off the point:

I knew at least one of three things was going to happen before the R National Convention. 1. We capture Saddam. 2. We capture Osama. 3. Reagan Dies. The sooner any of these things happens, the better for all the D's. I suspect we knew where Saddam was. I suspect we knew he wasn't wielding any influence in that hole and figured we could keep him there until capturing him was politically expedient. I suspect that this was the first attempt to halt the falling of Bush's numbers and take attention away from his failed policies. If any of this is the case, it's good that we got Bush to throw his first trump card.

[Gore1FL]

146. I think..

..the staements are the result of a heat-of-the-moment exchange and reflect anger at the supporter of someone else rather than anger at the actual nominee.

I fought and lost on this a long damn time ago. I am tuired of people telling me who not to vote for and no one giving me reasons TO vote for someone.

NBD will easily be replaced by ABB as soon as the nominating convention. Until then, it is all hot air or stupidity. The first doesn;t need fixing, the second can't be.

[Spirochete]

150. I think maybe a lot of the ABD and NBD people

will change their minds, as we all have * pissing us off on a daily basis, and everyone wants him gone. I'm sure some will stick by it, but I think a lot won't. Just my semi-delerious opinion.

[Undemcided]

152. Everyone gets emotional during the primaries

As long as we all get behind the chosen candidate I see no problems. We should all try and be nice though. :hi:

[GOPBasher]

155. I'm with you 100%.

Getting rid of Bush is the most important thing in the world right now. He's going to destroy us.