If a candidate does not denounce an ad then it is an attack?

[xultar]

Just wanted to get your opinion on something.

A poster from another thread mentioned that Clark hasn't denounced an ad that "attacks" Dean. So because Clark hasn't denounced the ad that means that he is attacking Dean? And because of that he isn't worthy of your votes should he get the nomination?

So basically if no other candidates denounce the ad they are all attacking Dean. I just want to see what you're thinking.

If Sharpton doesn't denounce he is attacking Dean
If Dennis doesn't denounce he is attacking Dean
If Kerry doesn't denoucne he is attacking Dean
If Braun doesn't denounce she is attacking Dean
If Gephardt doesn't denounce he is attacking Dean
If Clark doesn't denounce he is attacking Dean
If Lieberman doesn't denoucne he is attacking Dean

So all if the candidates are supposed to denounce all of the ads the other candidates run? So basically no candidate should run ads? Is that what we are saying?

[eileen_d]

1. kick, and by the way...

Clark is a little busy at the moment...
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/international/europe/14BOSN.html?ex=1071982800&en=a315b1cfc474dc3f&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[xultar]

3. No one here would understand they want Clark has to denounce all the Ads

while he is testifying @ the Hague.

[FloridaPat]

2. Denouncing ads and everything else could be a full

time ad. I think that's one of the problems with the Democrats - Bush lies so much, where do you start?

[AntiCoup2K4]

4. If the candidates have verifiable links to the source of the ad.......

....they should denounce it. All the candidates should denounce this particular ad, because it's simply pathetic and in reality, reflects bad on all Democrats with the implication that Bush Jr is better at foreign policy and fighting terrorism than any of them.

Gephardt and Kerry should specifically denounce the ad because of their known associations with those who made the ad. If they did not endorse or approve such an ad - and I honestly hope neither of them did - then it's in their own best interests to disavow any connection to it.

[eileen_d]

5. That does make a lot of sense.

If I were Kerry... but if I were Kerry, he would have done a lot differently and still be my candidate. :(

In the end, I think a lot of people will think Kerry and/or Gephardt are responsible because of their associations, whether they officially deny it or not.

[xultar]

8. Then why in your other post did you mention Clark...Kerry and Gep

are in the political machine. Clark is not. Your accusations are dangerous and unfounded. Re-read your post before you hit the post message button. Be sure you can back your words with FACTS. If you can't. Don't post or say that you can't provide proof in your post.

[Walt Starr]

12. Read what Will Pitt had to say about the Democratic Civil War

Expecting Gephardt, Lieberman and Kerry to find an anti-Dean in Clark.

Clark's hands are as guilty in this as anybody else, IMO.

I'll wait and see what he has to say after he testifies.

Any candidate who does not denounce this specific ad (not the NRA one, but the bin Laden one) will lose my vote should they be nominated. I will make no compromises on this.

If this had been an anti-Clark ad, I would be for Nobody But Clark and take the same stance against Dean.

If Dean sinks to this level, I am out of the Democratic Party forever.

[Jerseycoa]

45. You'll "wait and see what he has to say after he testifies"

Who the hell are you?

[Walt Starr]

46. I'm a voter

who the hell are you?

Clark is testifying in the Netherlands, ergo, he cannot denounce this right now.

I'll wait and see what he has to say after he testifies.

[AntiCoup2K4]

41. Feighan is tied to the DLC and the Clintons....

...and Clark is said to be "The Clintons' candidate". And as I said, I don't believe the General was involved in the ad. However, If I were Clark, I would be concerned that the DLC types might be doing these things behind my back - which could be interpreted as them not having much faith in his chances against Dean, at least not without dirty tricks.

[salin]

6. Not an attack... but ads to future vitriol... helps the GOP set the GE

tone. Esp the Osama ad. Are dem strategists this stupid? This same ad could (and WILL - in variations) be turned against any democratic nominee. You think that paper credential will innoculate against this?????

If losing three limbs in Vietnam wasn't enough to innoculate against anti-patriotic (and weak on defense) charges by a candidate who DODGED THE DRAFT in Vietnam (see Georgia Senate race 2002)... then NOTHING can protect a democratic candidate against this crap.

I am disgusted that Democratic Strategists (even if not currently aligned with a campaign) pulled this Atwater-ian stunt. It shows how callow and how much they suck as strategists - if this is representative of todays dc based strategists - then we are ALL in trouble. THis creates the tone for more negatives against all dem candidates, and plants the seeds a good 10 months before the RNC and Bush campaign will officially start doing so (after the GOP convention). It is freed advertising for Rove - to be used against any Democrat. Stupid, stupid, stupid. If this is representative of the "brains" behind the powerful DC strategists these days... then no wonder we keep losing close national elections (congress, senate) that we should win.

[xultar]

14. SHOW ME THE LINKS PLEASE THAT PROVE THIS IS A DEM AD n/t

[salin]

23. I stated democratic strategists ... not candidates.

The three principles of the organization hosting the site with the flash... two previously consulted with Gephardt, one with Kerry. One, I believe, is a former elected democratic official. Not a long stretch to refer to them as "democratic strategists".

Btw, in the eighties I worked for a dem consulting firm (for a former deputy chair of the DNC) and we in turn worked very closely with a circle of other dem consulting firms - that is - folks who did different types of strategy work for democratic candidates. It is an interconnected circle - with its own "group think". We didn't do so bad that cycle - we retook the senate (1986). But I did learn how interconnected the circle is - and how much there is a common (inside the beltway) view... and watching the past several election cycles - even on different campaigns the work of similar strategists (based on what issues are pushed what are held back (afraid to touch)... among MANY congressional democrats suggested to me that there still remains a rather incestuous circle of consultants (in terms of thinking alike and being very interconnected).

My point is that if THIS is representative of the group think of the current circle (from which the three principles of the group hosting the osama ad come)... then no wonder we have so many problems in our close elections. Strategically this is a very stupid ad - it hurts all democrats in the states where this is run - as it aligns all non-W candidates (re: anyone not Bush) with Osama. Not good long-term strategy.

[Bucky]

7. Have they figured out who's behind the attack ad yet?

[janx]

9. In this case, yes. Absolutely.

This is one of the most disgusting ads within the Dem camp I've ever seen, so much so that it was hard to believe it came from other Dems because it essentially bolstered Chimpy's agenda.

Can't you see that?

[xultar]

10. Listen up people you're getting WAY to sensitive and you can't see

beyond the rose coloured glasses you've nailed to your faces.

If I say that Dean has high marks with the NRA is that an attack?
No, it isn't it is TRUE and further more there are plenty of people who are democrats who have ties to the NRA. So that's not such a bad thing. They will get those votes.

Don't be so short sided that no one will be able to say anything but nice things about everybody. Politicts isn't nice all the time. Nore is it pretty. If Dean can't take this he sure as hell won't be able to take what ROVE has for him in the GE.

So get tough kiddies. You just may get what you asked for DEAN as a nominee

[salin]

27. Many are not reacting to the NRA ad - but to its sister - the Osama ad.

Really bad strategy and will leave an image in the states where it is run that will hurt ANY democratic candidate.

Sorry but if losing three limbs in the Vietnam war isn't enough to innoculate a sitting senator against a campaign using Osama's image on the behalf of a Draft Dodger (Chambliss) to say the war hero is unpatriotic - then the image of linking Osama to any dem - even a general - can have a negative effect. The current GOP knows no bounds - and sadly has been effective in their hubris-laden lie-soaked negative campaigning. THis ad just primes the pump for the GOP by planting that image against democrats (The ad equates BUSH as the one who can deal with this, btw, not another deomcrat) and does so MONTHS before the GOP is likely to start investing the money in the state... but the image will be there.. and linger.. leaving an emotional reaction. This will hurt any democratic nominee and will help BUsh. Tell me again how this is representative of effective demcoratic strategists?

[xultar]

11. WHO HERE HAS PROOF IT IS A DEMOCRATIC FUNDED AD???

POST THE LINKS HERE PLEASE!!!


I NEED PROOF!!! I SEE ALOT OF COMPLAINING BUT NO LINKS.

[Walt Starr]

15. Here's your proof

http://www.progressivevalues.com/default.asp?ID=2

Feighan was a Democratic congressman who has donated $2000 to the Gephardt campaign.

[xultar]

17. OK that proves GEP knew about the AD and he told them to run it?

[Walt Starr]

18. It sure as hell doesn't look good

And what you required was proof it was a Democratic ad. I proved it.

Fuck any candidate who does not denounce it. I will not vote for them.

[incapsulated]

13. The only reason to "denounce" the ad..

Is because they have been not so vaguely accused of being responsible for the ad themselves.

On Howard Dean's own website.

Now, if you were innocent of a given action, and accused without evidence by the "victim", who has plenty of personal motive to slander you, why in God's name would you buckle under such an attack? Why give the satisfaction? Or legitimize the accusation by responding? Maybe, if you think like me, such an action is proof that you had it coming, fair or not.

And by the way, when did you stop beating your wife?

[Walt Starr]

16. If they don't denounce, then fuck them

Denounce or expect to lose a majority of pro-Dean voters should you win the nomination.

It's that simple.

[xultar]

21. DEAN is using GOP money to run ads against DEMs.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/sfl-cpol06dec06,0,4315209.column?coll=sfla-news-col
Hmmmmm:

The newest supporter of former Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont is super-lobbyist Ron Book, who is a host for a Dean presidential campaign fund-raiser later this month. Wait a minute! Isn't this the same Book who raises money for President Bush and his baby brother, Jeb? "This is money for the Democratic primary," Book quickly points out. In other words, Dean now is running only against Democrats, so any money Book raises will not hurt Bush. ...

[robbedvoter]

22. Thanks, Walt. I'll frame this in my kitchen. Next to Dean's

"My supporters aren't transferable" comment.
The entire world revolves around your guy and owes him stuff, while he owes no one nothing. Reminds me of the Plame affair and W's threats to find out all the damned leaks (about his leaks).

[Walt Starr]

24. Well, I voted Dem in 2000

I could well reverse course in 2004 because voting for somebody who supports this shit is just as good as voting GOP.

[incapsulated]

28. I love this "Denounce or Die" threat

Does this method of making friends through intimidation usually work for you?

So, you're voting for Nader or somebody if Dean doesn't get the kneepad treatment from everybody, eh? Why is it that Dean and his supporters, in a situation when he should reasonably expect some sympathy, manage to make people dislike him even more? Rack your brain.

[Walt Starr]

29. Nope, it's my stance and I'm sticking to it

If this same ad had been run against Joe Lieberman, I would be denouncing all candidates other than Joe and would only vote for Joe unless other candidates denounced the ad.

[incapsulated]

31. George Bush thanks you for your logic n/t

[Walt Starr]

34. Quite honestly, I see absolutely no difference between any candidate

who doesn't denounce this ad and George W. Bush.

If my choice is a real George W. Bush and a George W. Bush lookandactalike, I should go for the real deal and save time.

[xultar]

32. Kneepad treatment...BHWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA n/t

[Jerseycoa]

42. They're losing me now

I thought it was a disgusting ad, too. At first I even thought the candidates coming together on it would be good. But, Jesus Christ, hurling baseless accusations and the weight of the Dean Machine around this way just sucks. This idea that you had a "revolution" and now run the world, I hate to tell you, is tripe. You people sorely need to get over yourselves.

[WillyT]

19. If They Let Someone Else Do Their Dirty Work For Them...

And remain silent on the issue, then yeah, it's an attack.

IMHO

[xultar]

20. ---ATTACK---Dean has links to the GOP using GOP $$ to attack Dems-

So now is Dean apart of the GOP machine,
NO HE ISN'T your arugment doesn't hold water.

Hmmmmm:

The newest supporter of former Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont is super-lobbyist Ron Book, who is a host for a Dean presidential campaign fund-raiser later this month. Wait a minute! Isn't this the same Book who raises money for President Bush and his baby brother, Jeb? "This is money for the Democratic primary," Book quickly points out. In other words, Dean now is running only against Democrats, so any money Book raises will not hurt Bush. ...


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/sfl-cpol06dec06,0,4315209.column?coll=sfla-news-col

[xultar]

25. Yoo Hoo? Don't you wanna talk about Dean using GOP $$$$

to run against other DEMS in the primaries, the same guy who raised money for Jeb and GWB in FL no less?

Let's discuss this.

[Walt Starr]

26. This crap is seriously driving me closer to DOB

Dean or Bush. Take your pick.

[xultar]

30. I had to take you off ignore to respond...I need you to answer my

question. Now that Dean is using money from a GOP fundraiser against other Democratic candidates should he now denounce his own ads?
It is a fair question.

You seem hell bent on hating Clark because apparently you think he had something to do with the Osama ad. Fine you can hate Clark, I don't care. You should however examine your position. You will not vote for Clark if he is the nominee unless he denounces the osama ad. I think then everyone should not vote for Clark then. To be consistant no one should vote for Dean because he is using GOP money against other Dem candidates.

Fair is Fair.

Personally I hope Dean wins the Democratic nomination for president. That way we all get what we deserve.

[incapsulated]

33. Didn't get the memo?

It's ok if Dean Does It.

[xultar]

35. Memo to self : To stop a thread simply introduce logic n/t

[Walt Starr]

37. I had to take you off ignore to tell you how to really stop a thread

Put the guy you're debating with on ignore and not expect him to reciprocate.

[mjv135]

36. hehehe

I think it's so funny that the campaign that brought out the first attack ads, is now crying the loudest.
This ad points out Howard Deans lack of national security and foriegn policy experience. Maybe if the press would stop treating him like a panzy ass rock star, and start asking some real questions, these ads wouldn't be neccessary.
This is the guy who checked his watch and whined about the debate focusing on Iraq too much. 'Bout time someone woke up the voting public!

[FrenchieCat]

39. It is ironic...

That Dean ran an ad where he claimed to be the only anti war candidate, and attacked the other candidates. That was ok? But if an ad is made about his lack of qualifications, that's not ok?

Who is setting the rules here?

Who is setting the standards?

Why is it ok for Dean to trash other candidates, but if he is trashed then all hell breaks loose....and

we are told that candidates MUST denounce an ad!

What in the hell is going on around here? Are some of us going crazy or what?

I don't even understand this silly crap!

From all I have been told, politics is a blood sport....

Has Dean been annointed by all of the Democratic party, or just a 25% slice? Why he is so entitled?

I really don't get this sense of outrage.

I know that when we claim that the pundits are operating under operation Ignore Clark, we are told to stop whinning.....

maybe those who counsel that should now take their own advise.

It's a fact that Dean has no foreign policy experience. Are we supposed to ignore that fact and just get on the bandwagon because Al Gores said so?

I SAY, HELL NO!

[robbedvoter]

38. So, If I say Dean killed the CFR is it an attack? If I say he refuses to

unseal his records - is that an attack?
If I say that he gave Enron shelter benefits - is that an attack?
If I say he said POTUS may lie under cover of National Security is that an attack?
If I say he said affirmative action shouldn't be based on color but on economic status is that an attack? If I say that after getting out of serving in the army he expressed his contempt for those who served is that an attack?( as in:
""It was like a scene from the movie `Alice's Restaurant,' " Dr. Dean said. "There was every kind of person you can imagine. Guys who weighed 375, guys who were 6-feet-5 with hair down to their knees and needle tracks up and down their arms."
 Dr. Dean said he  saw a young man sharing his urine specimen with a fellow draftee.  "I mean, that is what it was like," Dr. Dean said. "Welcome to the U.S. Army, boys.")
I just want to make sure what I can say and what I can't. I think your guy liked that Truman quote about giving them hell - how does it go again?

[MontecitoDem]

40. Wake up and stop whining.

Dean and his supporters are really starting to look weak here,
in my opinion.  Stop your moaning.  Come on - this is a
campaign and not a coronation.  If the heat is too much for
Dean, maybe he should just go back to feeding chickens and
skiing in Vermont.  

Seriously though.  This ad may be fear-inducing, but that's
because there's truth in there.  People are already scared of
terrorists and war.  What does Dr. Dean offer us in this area?
 IMO not much.  I disagree with the inclusion of the statement
about Bush, but grow up Dean supporters.  This is nothing
compared to what is ahead for you all if he makes it to the
GE.  For the guy who's planning to vote for Bush rather than
someone who doesn't condemn the ad - geez, I don't even know
what to say!  You must really have some strong political
convictions to be willing to throw them all in the trash
(along with our environment and economy) for this trivial
crap.

Personally, I think your campaign managers are hyping the
outrage to get you all to donate to another bat.  

[zulchzulu]

43. Candidates should renounce the ad IF...

...Dean comes clean on lying about his original position on the IWR.

Get Howard to do an ad saying he was a bold-faced liar when he said he was always against the War.

Until he does that, tough bovine excretement.

[salin]

47. Unfortunately.. Dean or no Dean

the Osama Ad .. if aired on TV... will hurt any democratic candidate. I have had a bone for awhile with the dc based circle of democratic campaign strategists (re: consulting firms). They seem to be very weak at seeing the full chess board and working accordingly. The Osama ad's most lasting impression isn't against Dean... it is FOR Bush... playing the RNC card about Bush's strength on National Security (a joke, in my mind, but one that they have been playing since they regrouped... about September 15, 2001.)

There is this seemingly foolish belief that some candidates are "innocualted" from these types of smears and lasting impressions. Foolish - because it ignores the SUCCESSFUL campaign in Georgia pitting a Vietnam War Veteran who lost 3 limbs in service to his country against a Vietnam War Draft Dodger. The Draft Dodger's camp portrays the Hero as being soft on National Security - and links his image to both Osama and Saddam - even though this guy voted for the war resolution! If being a decorated war hero - who gave his limbs in service to his country - doesn't innoculate a candidate from being 'unpatriotic', and 'weak on national security' - NOTHING WILL.

Now there are ways to counteract this - but it drains resources from other areas of the campaign. THIS ad *if aired on tv* (isn't clear to me that it is on tv)... goes to the GENERAL ELECTION voters... and links dean AND DEMOCRATS to Osama... and BUSH to "Safety and Security". It would give a broad airing of an image and concept that helps BUSH... MONTHS before any general election money is spent (either nurturing that picture... on the GOP side, or creating an image to supplent the image... on the DNC side.)

This is reflective of REALLY BAD POLITICAL STRATEGY. If this outfit represents the current 'group think' of the dc political consulting world (which serves most presidential, senatorial and congressional races) - then no wonder we keep losing very close elections. Short term thinking with NO big picture view.

[frustrated_lefty]

44. There is no reason for Clark to become involved

The people running the ad are associated with Gephardt and Kerry. They should say something to make it clear whether or not they are involved in any way. Clark has nothing to to with this.

[xultar]

50. Please pass that on to the Dean supporters that think Clark did

the Ad.
Thanks for being objective.

[DjTj]

48. ...but if Edwards doesn't denounce it's okay...

...Maybe you left him off the list on purpose. After all, he did say on Friday, "If all we are is divisive and angry and if all we do is attack President Bush and each other, then we will not win the White House in 2004."

[xultar]

51. I didn't leave him off on purpose, it was an oversite. I was just tryin

to get people to see their flawed logic.

[salin]

49. Interesting blog writeup on the principle behind the ads

Again - i am not tying this to a campaign, but am concerned that this is representative of the dc-based dem strategists/consultants who have a good deal of influence on one another. Not too pretty. Meet the wisdom behind running the Osama ad - which I predict gives a net boost to bush in the general election in any state where it is aired (if indeed it is intended to be aired.)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2003/12/13/235418/54