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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:53 PM
Original message
When Democrats Attack Democrats – a message from the Dean campaign
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:07 AM by pruner
On Thursday, the New York Times reported that George Bush would begin attacking us in January. We already know from the RNC ad in Iowa and New Hampshire that George Bush and Karl Rove will use fearmongering to attack Dean.

But using the war on terror for political gain is not just George Bush’s game. Some Democrats have now taken their strategy of acting like Bush Lite to a new low—launching an ad in South Carolina and New Hampshire that uses images of Osama bin Laden to attack Howard Dean’s commitment to defending America.

The ad was bought and paid for by Americans for Jobs, Health Care and Progressive Values, an organization that doesn’t have to reveal the identity of its donors—and it is one of the most despicable attack ads ever launched.

The ad shows a magazine with Bin Laden on the cover. As the camera zooms in, a narrator says:

“We live in a very dangerous world. And there are those who wake up every morning determined to destroy western civilization. Americans want a President who can face the dangers ahead. But Howard Dean has no military or foreign policy experience. And Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy. It’s time for Democrats to think about that… and think about it now.”

The ad could have been bought and paid for by George Bush, but it wasn’t—it was bought and paid for by a secretive group of unnamed Democrats who will do anything to stop Dean.

Who are the Americans for Jobs, Health Care and Progressive Values? Their press secretary is Robert Gibbs—who, until recently, worked on John Kerry’s campaign. Their Treasurer is David Jones, who used to raise money for Dick Gephardt. The president of the organization, Former Congressman Edward Feighan, was one of the earliest $2,000 contributors to Dick Gephardt’s presidential campaign.

And as their press release says, they plan to air this ad other early primary states, and they’ve bought “over $400,000 of airtime in Iowa for ads focusing on Howard Dean’s positions on the issues of guns, Medicare cuts and NAFTA.”

We know John Kerry’s been attacking Dean on guns, and Dick Gephardt’s been attacking Dean on Medicare and NAFTA. And just two months ago the New York Times reported that, “at least at a staff level, the Gephardt and Kerry campaigns… are sharing information about Dr. Dean that helps fuel each another's attacks.”

Maybe it’s all a coincidence that this new secretive group-- founded just last month-- has picked up the same line of attack that Kerry and Gephardt have been using for months.

We hope that their campaigns would have nothing to do with this ad—the type of ad that Senator Kerry denounced as “political hate speech” when one like it was used against Senator Max Cleland in the 2002 election.

Will the Kerry and Gephardt campaigns, as well as the other campaigns, now step forward as Kerry did for Cleland and denounce this ad, as all Democrats should do?

Under any circumstances, using Osama bin Laden to attack Howard Dean is despicable. It is especially hypocritical if the attack comes from those who supported the war in Iraq.

Osama bin Laden is still at large because the President turned his attention away from al Qaeda to pursue his war with Iraq—the war that every major candidate for the nomination except for Howard Dean supported. John Kerry voted for it. Dick Gephardt wrote the Iraq resolution and stood beside George Bush in the Rose Garden when the president signed it.

As Vice President Al Gore said this week when he endorsed Howard Dean, “It was Osama bin Laden that attacked us… so don't tell me that because Howard Dean was the only major candidate who was right about that war, that that somehow calls his judgment into question on foreign policy.”

There’s one thing that even the most cynical political operative knows is true: hateful attack ads like this might push someone down in the polls, but they do so by discouraging people from voting at all. People see this mud being slung around and they give up. It’s the same politics of the past that has led to more than 50% of Americans not voting at all.

But our campaign isn’t just about winning this election. It’s about restoring our democracy. We welcome an open debate about policy, about the merits of going to war with Iraq instead of pursuing the war on terror. But all Democrats in this election should join Howard Dean and stand up for democracy. They should be standing up for the participation of everyone, instead of pursuing tactics that breed cynicism and discourage Americans from voting.

You can show that we're going to keep fighting. Contribute to our campaign. We need to fight these attacks and get on with the real goal of this election-- defeating George W. Bush and restoring a politics of participation and meaning to our country.

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002665.html
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. The smell of desperation....
...it is so very afraid of the Dean Machine. It permeates the TV airwaves with that fear, and it permeates DU with that fear.

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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. If that is your analysis - more power to those of
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:02 AM by molly
us that think he's an idiot.

p.s. his "machine" too
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
41. Molly, Do You Denounce the Ad?
Just wondering. Direct question. Fair question.
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #41
58. Of course not
You'd have to disagree with the context to denounce it.
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #58
119. This may be Clark's Stinker!!!
The sludge slinging organization is being run by Ed Feighan, a washed up, ex congressman from Ohio.

Feighan's best political friend in Cleveland is one Tim Hagan, who ran for Governor last year and came in second.

Clark hired Hagan to run his Ohio campaign last month.

Hagan threw an Ohio fundraiser for Clark on Dec 6th.

How much you wanna bet they screened the ad with Feighan and the General gave them the go-ahead?

:puke:
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #119
128. do you have any proof to that claim? n/t
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #128
170. Proof is not necessary when attacking anyone other than Dean.
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #119
131. So now it's Clark's fault?
What? You run out of reasons to blame Clinton? Nice try but "LOOK OVER THERE" doesnt hunt this time.

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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #119
133. I don't think Clark is involved in this
He hasn't been playing this game. Gephardt and Kerry have been. If I were a supporter of either of these two I would drop them so fast and join Dean's campaign in protest.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #133
159. Wes Clark is above this sort of thing, besides...
Clark is rising in the polls while former frontrunners Lieberman and Kerry, together with Gephardt are floundering.

In terms of motive, this is a Gephardt operation. It reminds me of the anti-McCain ads from Texans for the Environment that were run during the GOP primaries in 2000. The Texans for the Environment turned out to be a couple of construction contractors that were the beneficiaries of Governor Bush's prison construction contracts.

I hope Kerry had nothing to do with it because what the ad does is to say that opposing the war in Iraq is to support terrorism. If Kerry is involved, which would be out of character for him (as was his vote for IWR), then he would have completed his journey to the Dark Side.

This ad is more than an attack on Dean, this ad is repeating the FREEPER mantra that to oppose the war in Iraq is to support terrorism. The ad smears millions of peace loving people in America and the world.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #58
139. It's context?
I don't understand?
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #41
80. Please note the lack of a response to your question......
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
100. Subtext: You're either with us or against us. You're UNPATRIOTIC...
What a great grassroots campaign Dean has.
"Attack ad" hasn't even aired and there's already a little thread telethon with a money donated ticker for the victim and anyone skeptical of the implied/denied source of the attack is being confronted and intimidated.

MOLLY, you're unpatriotic if you don't DENOUNCE this ad!

It's all so 911.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #100
113. I believe the negative point is that the ad...
...says that a Democratic candidate can't compete with BUSH'S FOREIGN POLICY. This actually HELPS Bush* while reinforcing the myth that Democrats are 'weak' on foreign policy/national security.

- This could have just as well been produced by the Rove team.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. why is it that the truth of this is soo hard to unserstand
it could have been produced by rove and if dean is our candidate
IT WILL BE ROVE THAT HAMMERS HIM ON THIS ISSUE.

isn't it better to consider that BEFORE the primaries? if a candidate, in this case dean, can't compete with bush on security and foreign policy issues we need to consider it before we make him the nominee.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #115
116. and I guess kerry, gephardt, kunich, clinton, clark, sharpton, braun,
edwards, or liberman can. sorry but I just don't agree, bush will kick the living shit out of any of them. hell he already has beaten the majority of this group, why do you think they are going to do any better against bush now.

the only chance anyone has is someone who can think out of the box, and you would definitely have to give that title to dean. look at how he has handled the democratic field, like it or not the confederate flag flap show's he is not going to concede the south to the repugs like gore did, and the fund raising is absolutely brilliant. I just don't understand how anyone could not see that dean is the right road to take. win or not we have to start building a base, if we ever hope to get this party back on it's feet. and dean is leading the way to doing that.
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #116
121. Why do Democrats insist on being such GD wimps?
"bush will kick the living shit out of any of them. hell he already has beaten the majority of this group, why do you think they are going to do any better against bush now."

Great spirit. Congrats on your can-do attitude.

"already beant the majority"? The fight hasn't even begun.

Pardon me if I don't fall in line due to your exaggerated use of scare tactics. Nice way to imitate bush though. (if you don't give up your liberties, the boogeyman will get you!)

:eyes:
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #121
137. Any one of these nine fine Americans...
...can take Junior down. With our united support, our nominee wins. Period.

You down with ABB? Yeah, you know me...
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #137
173. Not true, CW, sadly just not true.
Wishing doesn't make it so.

It just makes the disappointment even worse.

Clark is the One, and it'll be a tough race down to the wire.

The US has never, to my knowledge, turned an incumbent President out of office during a time of "war". In a general election Clark is the only candidate with even a pretense of being able to claim he could lead this "war" better than Bush.

Do the math.

I will vote for a ham sandwich rather than Bush but I can't fool myself into thinking the odds are on our side. Our very best candidate is a long shot underdog from the very first minutes after the nomination.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #116
123. 60% of the people still support the war.
all of our candidates, except dean, represent that position.

what part of that statement do you dispute.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #123
183. Bullshit. It depends on who does the poll and how the question is asked.
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 03:46 PM by stickdog
I could just as easily say 60% thinks the Iraq War was NOT worth the loss of life and billions of dollars.

In any case, the policy that brought us to war and occupation there was horrific. A real LEADER is someone who makes the case for what's right to US voters. To poll read in a case like Iraq is to be a gutless scumbag politician.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #116
197. dean is uniquely vulnerable on the war because he stands alone
the thing that makes him most popular with the left will be problematic in the general because 70% of the people don't agree with his position. in the states we need to take, like PA or a southern state or two, the support is even higher.

dean will be toasted on this. the others have immunity because they voted as the people wanted them to vote.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #115
178. Great. Maybe Dems should accuse Dean of child molestation.
Because Rove is sure to.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #100
177. So you AND molly actually support the ad? (nt)
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
62. Says she of the losing candidate. Speaks volumes.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
101. how about he's a hypocrite?
the whole dean campaign was buit on attacking other dems on the iraq war for political gain!!

what a pile of bull!!!!
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #101
136. Now hold on a minute
You can't even claim that Dean criticized the others on the war for political gain because when he said this there was very widespread support for the war. He said what he believed and it was a real political risk to do so. And calling ALL of the Democrats who supported the war "Bush Lite" was NOT a personal attack on any particular candidate. It was valid policy criticism. The material in the ads and the criticism being made by both Gephardt and Kerry has NOT been truthful or valid criticism of policy it has been lies and fearmongering. There is a HUGE difference.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #101
185. From the anti-neocon imperialist side of the fence.
But you see no difference?
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littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
176. Molly, a little more constructive disagreement, please.
Name calling stifles conversation of important issues. The ads are despicable and all democrats should denounce them.
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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
68. Is Howard "angry man," "they are cockroaches" Dean, against negativity?
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. Mostly anyone not in AWE of the almighty CAMPAIGN!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Progressive"....my
Democratic :kick:

"The ad could have been bought and paid for by George Bush, but it wasn’t—it was bought and paid for by a secretive group of unnamed Democrats who will do anything to stop Dean."

Our campaign is johnny on the spot with answering the attacks ...ONCE AGAIN!

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I have the utmost confidence that the Dean campaign will respond directly…
to the charges made in the ad.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Me too! Working on it now as we
hit the keys!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
39. I hope they put out an ad on Monday or Tuesday to combat this
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. I hope they do too!
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:11 AM by eileen_d
Honestly, I want Dean to fight back. I just want him to fight back on a higher level. With some CONTENT, not with campaign rhetoric.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Whatever
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. n/t
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:13 AM by eileen_d
n/t - thanks mods :)
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PatrickS Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. Sure
"Instead of telling us why Dean is not the person portrayed in the ad, this response focuses entirely on the ad."

Well, duh!

Why should Dean or anyone take that repulsive ad seriously at any level? Why dignify it? Anyone with any sense would see that this type of ad is unacceptable.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
55. My point (which I will now state calmly) is...
that this ad does reflect the concerns of some undecided voters. I'm not talking about the people who made the ad - they are obviously scumbags - but people are concerned about Dean's image where national security is concerned.

But apparently Dean will be addressing that image in the near future. I look forward to it. :toast:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
186. Dean can respond to their concerns in the general election.
For now, he needs to hammer Dems who run Repuke scaremongering hit pieces.
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ALago1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. This will not hurt Dean...
Dean will not be affected by the "weak on foreign policy" talking point advocated in this ad during the primaries.

Primary season is for those politically aware and attuned to what is going on. People will see this for what it is for, a despicable political maneuver.

If anything, this will backfire against any candidates behind it.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Democratic candidates have no excuse running negative ads
In the primary, that's not what we should be spending money on - we need to sign up new voters, organize Democrats, and GOTV. This is as bad as Lieberman's public attacks at the debates and as bad as excluding Kucinich, CMB, and Sharpton from media coverage.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. They're all attacking each other - that's politics. This is what
people do during primaries. Dean attacks the other candidates and they attack him.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. pictures of Osama was total crap
I can't stand Dean, but this is bullshite.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
143. I guess that is over the top. I didn't look at the ad very closely.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. With osama?
think about it.
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SadEagle Donating Member (664 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
43. It's not just politics.
If they don't even sign their names behind their ads.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. Dean has alienated pretty much everyone from the start
of his campaign - why should he expect respect and support now?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
37. Boo-hoo -
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #37
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
181. Molly,
your posts deserve little or no respect. Talk to us when you have grown up.
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. Sorry
I'm supporting Kerry until America comes to its senses, which is probably about 10-15 years from now. If Dean loses to Bush, it's because he deserves to lose, and cannot occupy the human center. That said, if he's nominated, I'll think he'll win - but I have little confidence in the job he'll do as President.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. I hope kerry loses because I don't think
he can do the job.
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
56. HPLeft, Do You Denounce the Ad?
Just wondering.

I do. It's disgusting and beyond the pale.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #56
65. Wow. More silence. Are you getting the picture here?
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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
11. I don't like this either
This article could have made the point without attacking Kerry and Gephardt. At this point no one knows if they had anything to do with the ads. Insinuating that they did is Democrats attacking Democrats.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. well, that's the politics game----other opponents team up to defeat one
opponent in the hopes they can bring him down.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. That's Howard Dean
No facts, no proof, who cares? Just scorch everything in front of you. And he continues with his "supported the war" bullshit when only Joe Lieberman supports this stupid war. Full of shit campaign from a full of shit candidate.
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:12 AM
Original message
SandnSea, Do You Denounce the Ad?
Just wondering.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
60. the silence is deafening
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #60
82. That's twice in this thread.....
...that someone flaming was asked if they denounce the ad.

Neither one responded.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
76. Already have
Sorry if you missed it.
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #76
83. I Did
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 01:00 AM by tsipple
Got a link? Thanks.

Or just repost the same here. We'd all appreciate that.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. Don't believe me?
Are you saying I'm lying?
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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #85
97. Yes and No, Respectively
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 01:58 AM by tsipple
But I will say you're being defensive and uncooperative so far, and I wish you wouldn't when it's trivially easy to answer this polite request from a fellow Democrat and DUer.

Many thanks in advance for clearing up this question.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. I did
You asked if I denounced the ad. I said I already have. For you to go one step further after that isn't polite, according to what my mother taught me.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #98
102. Sandnsea did denounce it...
I'm too tired to search for it right now, but I think I'm an obvious Dean supporter, so I have no reason to lie.

BTW, whatever our political differences, kudos to any Dem who denounces this kind of scare tactic.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #102
141. I appreciate the backup
But since I've always been up front about what I think, I wouldn't have thought my integrity would have been called into question in the first place. Still, thanks.
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #98
157. Thank you (n/t)
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
168. And more importantly: do you renounce Satan? What's with the Inquisition?
How dare you intimidate people like this? You sound like Ashcroft. Are the denounciations due with notarized signatures, or simply written in blood will do? Unbelievable arrogance! Every undecided voter reading this will know to stay away from your scary bunch: *D!
"Do you now, or in the past have any connections with the Communist party?"


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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #168
174. Hey, I denounce Satan
I'm just a little more leery about talking bad about Cthulu.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
189. The only way to stop this crap is to fire back at the ad's intended
beneficiaries.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. great response!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. You Started It Dean-
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:02 AM by cryingshame
Not only have you used the Iraq War cynically... even to the point of sending out an email to your supporters celebrating the One Year Anniversary of the IWR....


Your campaign used the recovery of your own brother's remains for sympathy points.

Just like a bully, you can dish it out but you can't take it.


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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. how were they supposed to handle the recovery of Dean's brother's remains?
not let people know about it? It already came out in the press so they had to deal with it.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #23
36. Thank You Senators Kerry & McCain
That would have been one way.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #36
48. Dean worked for it....he didn't have to
thank them for nothin'.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. you are so wrong....but then
you knew that.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
187. So you support Dems who run Repuke hit pieces against other Dems? (nt)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. We just donated a hundred because this made us so angry.
There is no excuse for this kind of stuff. Good for the Dean campaign for being on top of it.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. How many of you are going to file bankruptcy
because of this idiot?
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Sigh.....
...more from the one who tonight agrred with everything a freeper editorial said.

Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Don't worry about us.
Unfortunately, we can't give more than $2000.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. kerry is the
idiot that voted For the Iraqi War Resolution.
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. How many people died because of that blank check???
...meanwhile the "agrees with freepers" crowd whines more and more.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. desperation----that's all.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #40
64. Lemme say it again, without the disruption.....
.....slink, you're hired.

I want someone like you on my side, who can bring facts and rational discussion to the opponents of my campaign.

Plus, I think I can trust you in case one of my primary opponents decides to agree with the Republicans out of bitter jealousy.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
145. She is awfully good isn't she? I've never seen an anti-Dean thread
without her on there in less than 5 minutes with a pretty rational response. Slink - do you work for the Dean campaign?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #145
154. nope, and isn't that the amazing part?
:-)
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #64
153. thanks!
:-)
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #38
84. That Dean agreed with?
The anti-war Dean is dead. The truth is out, get used to it. It's all over the papers, all over the country. And they haven't even gotten to the February quote, the one he gave "eight times today", the one where he says we should attack unilaterally if Saddam doesn't comply with inspections. You've seen it many times. The one he gave AFTER the Democratic Convention where he accused the other candidates of being for a unilateral war and had to aplogize. No more blank check IWR vote to throw out every time things don't go Dean's way.

"Dean later conceded that he backed an alternative to last fall's resolution that would have allowed President Bush to wage war against
Kerry said that at the time of the congressional debate, Dean was on record saying then that Saddam Hussein needed to be disarmed and had supported a resolution sponsored by Sens. Joseph R. Biden Jr. and Richard G. Lugar that would have required Bush to report back to Congress if he failed to win international support for the war.

Kerry said Dean was "trying to have it both ways" on his position. "If you don't have to vote, you can run around and say a lot of things. But that's not leadership."

A Senate Democratic aide involved in the discussions over the competing resolutions said Wednesday that the White House had opposed the initial Biden-Lugar amendment, saying it would tie Bush's hands. Later the White House began negotiating with the sponsors, but those negotiations were undercut when Gephardt cut a deal with the White House to support their preferred resolution.

The aide said Biden-Lugar would have added an additional requirement for Bush to satisfy before going to war unilaterally, but added that a president determined to launch military action probably would not have been deterred by the alternate resolution."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54585-2003Dec10.html

"One of those alternatives -- offered by the top men on the Senate Foreign Relations, Democrat Joe Biden of Delaware and Republican Dick Lugar of Indiana -- authorized the use of force after a new UN resolution requiring Iraqi disarmament and compliance with past resolution; if UN diplomacy was exhausted it authorized unilateral action if the president declared Iraq a threat.

This alternative was not only supported by Howard Dean, it was supported by Senator John Kerry, whom Dean also attacks for being Bush's war buddy.

Lacking votes, the Biden-Lugar proposal was never formally introduced. Instead, the negotiations with Democrats produced the resolution that passed. It authorized force for several other offenses beyond prohibited weapons (including ballistic missiles, which Iraq had), but also encouraged UN involvement. The differences between the two were not huge, and each authorized war, including unilateral war.

After the vote, Dean reiterated his Biden-Lugar position but did not denounce the enacted resolution until later. He also said Bush should be taken at his word that Iraq constituted a threat.

As a result of Congress's resolution, the Bush administration went to New York and secured unanimous Security Council passage of a new resolution demanding new inspections and threatening serious consequences for disobedience."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/
articles/2003/11/23/deans_negative_tilt_in_iowa/
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #84
188. Kerry just can't lose without scorching the earth with lies, can he?
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
25. Desperate losers.
I can't vote for a Democrat for president who would do this. If Dean doesn't get the nom I'm sitting out. If I'm not going to be able to respect the president, it might as well be a Repuke.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #25
51. If Dean does get the nomination...
I'm sitting out. Nanny nanny boo boo. Real mature, huh?
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #51
93. I am very upset at the thought of people that don't like Dean sitting home
on voting day. I am a Dean supporter but I will pound the pavement for whoever gets the nomination. I find it absolutely disgusting that people say they won't vote if their candidate doesn't get the nomination. Don't you understand that if Bush were to win, this will be the last free election! Honestly, I have no desire for a country I love so much to fall into the darkness that is fascism. That is what will happen, more will die, more will be jailed, descent will be outlawed, we see it happening around us already. We have already almost completely lost a free press. Please people, let us remember that we have everything to loose if shithead gets re-elected! That ad is repulsive, and who ever is behind it, is doing their best to seal our fate, over sour grapes!

Please I beg of anyone considering not voting if their candidate doesn't get the nomination, to think of your children or mine (two beautiful little boys with blonde hair and blues eyes, Luke is 20 months and Xander is 4 months. I worry constantly about the world I have brought them into), think of the environment, think of your freedom, these things are under attack by this administration. If you don't vote b/c of such childishness, you are just as bad as Bush, maybe worse b/c you had the chance to stop him and did nothing.

Other than Lieberman, I DO NOT ATTACK THE OTHER CANDIDATES! I cheer whenever any of them say something true and important. I'm not that great a person, I'm kinda shallow and I am materialistic. I have on occasion bad mouthed people behind their backs. However, I try everyday to be a better person. Please, folks this election is too important to act this way, we are all in this together b/c we will ALL be hurting if we get four more years of Bushit.
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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #93
161. ahem
he was responding sarcastically to post #25, the one RIGHT above it... you have selective vision if i've ever seen it
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
96. Please, we have to vote for whoever the nominee is. People have to rise
above it, this election is too important to sit at home.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
111. If Dean gets the nomination there will be many people
who either sit it out or cast a protest vote in favor of a third party or Bush.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #111
155. bah humbug
there'll be coals in your stockings this year for being a sourpuss. ;-)
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #111
190. Why? (nt)
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
148. It's people with your attitude who brought us George W. Bush - Thank you
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:27 PM by gore-is-my-president
n/t
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AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
27. I find it ironic.....
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:06 AM by AWD
...how the Dean haters are screaming at us when we bring up that two people involved worked for Kertry and Gephardt very recently. How DARE we insinuate that Kerry or Gep had ANYTHING to do with this?????

But yet just last week they were screaming their heads off because somebody raised funds for Dean that also raised funds for Bush.

I suppose when you run a failed campaign, that's all you have left.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. yep, hypocrisy in SPADES
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #27
46. That was true
This is fiction. And how does Dean respond? More attacks and lies.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. The only lies are from
gepkerry.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #49
69. Gep-Kerry..the two headed statist monster now writhing in fury
that they are both about to get their collective ass kicked by a short VT. Doctor.

Ohhh the agony!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #69
109. heh
;-)
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
86. And in fact he hadn't raised funds for George or Jeb Bush at all.
He'd donated the max to every Dem candidate running. Was GRAHAM's fundraiser, and had donated $200 to a candidate named James Bush. (JEB is John Ellis Bush, not James). James Bush is A DEMOCRAT!

http://www.floridians.org/newsf/082000.html
August 20, 2000
Jim Saunders
Florida Times-Union

TALLAHASSEE—As they battle for the Democratic nomination for education commissioner, James Bush and George Sheldon are already lame ducks.

Sheldon and Bush are running for a job that will become an appointed position in 2003, giving them only two years to try to boost the performance of the state's schools.

----------
But in the race to attack Dean, nobody bothers to do any research at all on this garbage. It makes my heart ache to see DUers like Will Pitt become slingers of sh*t like this. No research, no due diligence, no quarter.

It sure seems that a lot of you have decided that it doesn't matter if we lose to Bush ... literally if we lose the last chance to save our country ... as long as you and your candidate get the last word, no matter that it's dishonest spin on out-of-context and mischaracterized nuggets of historical data. You just don't give a damn. So what if they attack a fellow Democrat who just might be our nominee with Rove's talking points?

Do any of you honestly believe that ANY Democrat including the glamorous general with the easily smeared and spun record can go up against Bush on Rove's terms? Are you honestly so unable to understand that we have to frame the contest in OUR OWN terms to beat the boy king? Are you???

At this point ... in fact throughout the campaign to date ... ONLY Dean has consistently framed the debate with Bush on our terms instead of Rove's. That's why he can win ... if you and your candidates wouldn't do Rove's work for him.

Come to your senses, DUers.

For God's sake, wake up and wake your candidates up before it's too late for any of them OR Dean to win. The future of the country is in your hands right now. And by fighting a fellow Dem on Rove's terms you're just hurting all of us and any possibility for an America either we or our children can live in.

You're all too smart for this. Or at least I thought you were. Please don't prove me wrong.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #86
142. Damn right, Hedda
You oughtta start a new thread with your response.
I too, am sick of all the BS being scribbled onto this board.

Where's the honesty?
Where are the facts?
Where is the proof to these allegations and smears?


Do any of them know just how incredible they seem?
How badly they are destroying their reputations?

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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
31. yuck
That is horrible.

I support Clark because I don't think Dean has the experience to lead our country in foreign affairs, but I think that painting him as a danger to our country is terrible.

Leave that to Bush and the neocons
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
42. Three points
This initiative is disgusting and I intend to email these people and let them know that I find it reprehensible. I imagine others might want to do that as well.

This reply seems to attempt to implicate Kerry and Gephardt in being somehow supportive of this assault. Unless the Dean camp has definitive proof of this it is best left unsaid. It simply continues the acrimony. If there is proof, let it be shouted from the rooftops so everyone can hear it.

And three, you have to admire how the blog settled down to a really important consideration dealing with this attack: send us money. As long as we keep our priorities in order.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Color me cynical - Running that ad is a great fundraiser for whom?
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:11 AM by SahaleArm
I guess the truth will come out in Februrary...
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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. I have a feeling that Dean's crack team of bloggers…
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:13 AM by pruner
will uncover who's behind that ad long before February.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #52
63. Donors won't be released until Feb under FEC rules *nm*
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #63
179. Soros anyone?? (NT)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #52
67. Yeah! It will come out before then!!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #52
99. me too.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #47
70. Unintentionally, for Dean. I just sent him $50 because of it.
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Phelix_Dacat Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. Heya Scott
tresec and I were wondering whatever happened to you. We figured you were enjoying a wonderful Gitmo vacation <eg>. How's NM treating you?
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. No, intentionally for Dean
some people may not be old, but they can still be played like a Stradivarius
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
134. You don't think that
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 10:47 AM by retyred
just because there's a "Contribute to fight these ads" link in the original post that dean just may have put out this ad himself just to blast the others and raise more money do you?

I didn't think so!



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”

So I read this book
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #42
53. Mike you are a very wise man...
Your last two sentences said it all.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #42
57. Point two
This reply seems to attempt to implicate Kerry and Gephardt in being somehow supportive of this assault. Unless the Dean camp has definitive proof of this it is best left unsaid. It simply continues the acrimony. If there is proof, let it be shouted from the rooftops so everyone can hear it.

The reply called for Kerry and Gephardt to denounce it. That's all the evidence I need that they had nothing to do with it.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #42
59. Good on you for point one.
As for point 2. The press release regarding this ad named prior Kerry and Gephardt operatives. If and when Kerry and Gephardt denounce the ad, then Dean can praise them for it. The circumstantial evidence here is much too strong to ignore...you do remember the tag team efforts of these two to derail Dean's union support don't you?

Point 3. When you have 8 candidates, the DLC, the GOP and several 527 organizations on both sides attacking you, it takes money to combat them. A priority in this campaign is to fight back and not take bullshit attacks lying down.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #59
87. that's what they're planning to do with the $695,000 now, I bet
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cavebat2000 Donating Member (347 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #59
91. Hell yeah!
Keep fighting the good fight unfrigginreal
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
66. Hey, sorry if the money stuff offends
It's what we do. It's how we fight back. They don't exactly give tv time away, you know. For Dean to provide the substantive response some here are demanding, someone's got to pay to make the ad and get it aired.

I'm proud to send money. It makes me feel powerful.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #66
88. same here too
we're not lying down by donating money---we're fighting back against the lying liars!
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #42
89. You think he shouldn't prepare an ad in response to this?
That this unseemly attack should be allowed to stand, go umanswered? Do you not imagine that a campaign would have a budget and something like this would fall a wee bit ouysidethe budget?

I know you're not a Dean supporter, and that's fine. But surely you don't think that any candidate ought to willingly tie its hands behind is back at a time like this?

I do appreciate your other remarks.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. we have to fight back and we're fighting back every inch of the way!
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #89
108. Goddam right he should!
And name the names of the candidates who have been using the same line of attack.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #42
90. You think he shouldn't prepare an ad in response to this?
That this unseemly attack should be allowed to stand, go umanswered? Do you not imagine that a campaign would have a budget and something like this would fall a wee bit ouysidethe budget?

I know you're not a Dean supporter, and that's fine. But surely you don't think that any candidate ought to willingly tie its hands behind is back at a time like this?

I do appreciate your other remarks.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
61. Outrageous ad...a discredit to whoever approved it.
:thumbsdown:
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
71. Garbage, marinated in manure...and it smells like Gephardt!
Ed Feighan, listed as the director of this sludge-slinging "interest group", is a washed up ex-Congressman who probably is working as a strawman for his former boss: Richard Gephardt!

:grr:
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. yep
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #79
122. Thinking this might be Clark now...
see post 119, above.
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ajacobson Donating Member (828 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #122
163. Sorry, that dog won't hunt
No basis for that. Feigin's relationship to Hagan doesn't tie him to the Clark campaign at all. If you can show a direct relationship from Feigin to Clark then let's talk. Plus it doesn't make sense and is not necessary for Clark for reasons others have spoken to.

If you're saying this just to poke Clark, well, in the words of Mister T--I don't have time for jibber-jabber.
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #71
138. Only 7 more to go
First you blamed Clark, now Gebhardt, who's next? Something is really strange about the blame game here, since most dean supporters feel this won't hurt dean, what's the point in the outrage?


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”

So I read this book
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artr2 Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
74. I went to their web site and wrote them a letter
I urge you to do the same
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
75. Translation: I'm WAY ahead; let's all kiss and make up
I've slandered and attacked my way to the top, starting earlier and being more derisive than all the rest of you put together, so let's just stop the nastiness, it's sooo passe. Respect my authori-tay.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
77. This is insane.
For Democrats to say that if a particular Democrat wins the White House, then Americans will be unsafe from terrorism and that osama will come back and destroy Western civilization is extremely fucked up.

A vote for Dean = automatic death at the hands of extreme fundamentalists??

I'm going to reserve judgement on who exactly is funding this newly formed group that consists of one ex-Kerry campaign staffer and one Gephardt fundraiser. These two people could very well be doing this without Kerry or Gephardt having any prior knowledge so there's no point speculating until I have more information.

I can, however, vent an endless amount of rage towards both Robert Gibbs and David Jones and their new club "Americans For Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values" and I intend on doing so every fucking day between now and the election.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. and make sure to raise a big stink about this in the des moines
register!
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #77
107. You are correct
And the fact that people are so incredibly blinded by their hatred of Dean that they cannot see this is really pathetic.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #77
135. It's not just b-lite, it's full on bush
Trying to appeal to the coward in us, just like cheney, ashcroft, rummy and crew are counting on for their support. The only promise they have is that there's a terrorist under every bed- so go back to sleep, children, and let the govt handle it in secret.

This is a text book illustration of there being no difference between at least some factions in both parties. The DNC must be called on to renounce this.

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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
94. Just when I was starting to feel sorry for him
He has shit like this on his website. On his "official blog". Before any campaign statement.

A counterattack full of venom and baseless slander against his opponents.

Ya know, this couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
95. I don't think Dean has ANY room to talk about attacking democrats!
Seeing has how his entire campaign is BUILT ON ATTACKING DEMOCRATS.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #95
104. Stop being a Bush-lite!
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 03:51 AM by SahaleArm
:evilgrin:
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #95
106. Some other campaigns are built on attacking Dean...
And they're sinking like rocks.

I guess Dean is just special.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #95
191. With Repuke scaremongering shitpieces? Come on. (nt)
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saoirse Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
103. The ad is RIGHT ON!
There - I said it!

Dean can't win. And I defy you who are Dean supporters
to say you honestly, truly feel otherwise.

Dean is another Dukakis. Except he's not Greek.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. oh, he's winning with polls, number of supporters, and fundraising $$$
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #105
151. Than this ad cannot touch him, right? He has it all - no need for us
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 12:55 PM by robbedvoter
to lend a hand to the victorious, anointed deam. He has the power, non?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #151
152. we can't take anything for granted
that's why we've written over 100,000 letters to Iowa and New Hampshire, and been out there on the streets everyday campaigning for Dean.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #103
193. So, Bush makes you feel safe at night? You like perpetual war against
whomever Bush pleases -- whether or not they have any connection to terrorism?
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
110. oh please
How hypocritical! Dean does more candidate bashing then anyone else. Now that someone is bashing back suddenly it's despicable to bash other Dem candidates... WHAT? Sorry, but this just makes him look like a damn crybaby. Welcome to the nasty world of primary politics. Hell, I've seen FAR worse attack ads in pissy little local campaigns. Big deal... politics is ugly. For someone who is supposedly "teflon" coated, this knee-jerk reaction just makes him look like he's diaper rash coated. I can't freakin' believe that he (or his supporters) believe that other candidates are now expected to rally to his side and denounce this. BULLSHIT! Howie's on his own just like the rest of the candidates, and he's the last one that has any place to be whining about attacks. At least this attack while harsh is actually true - he IS weak on defense - where a good deal of Deans attacks are flat out lies. He's even lying AGAIN in this whine speach:

"Osama bin Laden is still at large because the President turned his attention away from al Qaeda to pursue his war with Iraq—the war that every major candidate for the nomination except for Howard Dean supported."

This is straight up BULLSHIT. Wes Clark is a major candidate and has never supported the Iraq war. Not only that, Clark has NEVER bashed Dean or any other candidate even when he's goaded into doing it.

Now even Gore is spouting that same flat out lie:

"As Vice President Al Gore said this week when he endorsed Howard Dean, 'It was Osama bin Laden that attacked us... so don't tell me that because Howard Dean was the only major candidate who was right about that war, that that somehow calls his judgment into question on foreign policy."

Sure, it's a harsh ad. So what... that's politics. Dean has built his campaign on attacking the other candidates. He deserves not one iota of sympathy on this. If Dean is so teflon coated as his supporters like to claim, then he has no leg to stand on for being a crybaby about it and putting out a ridiculous call to arms for denunciation from the very people he's been attacking.

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Speed8098 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #110
112. I couldn't agree more
I'm sick to death of the deanies that cry everytime someone tells the truth about their little doc.

Now we have deanies saying they will sit out the election if their boy doesn't get the nomination. How incredibly stupid is that?? Cry cry cry, but do nothing to change the status quo.

Face it, this guy has no chance of getting to the White House. He has a big mouth and no substance. All I've seen from him is bashing.

His record in Vermont is anything but progressive. He stayed the course of his repub predecessor.

"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"

That's a mantra Dean should live by.

We need to take our country back, sadly this little man isn't the one to do it. Deanies wake up, your boy is a loser.




Let the flames begin :smoke:

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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #110
117. yanno I watched Clark on CNN
and I sure as hell don't remember him speaking out against this war. In fact I was hardly able to discern what his feelings were on the matter.

How many month prior was his last fundraising speech for the GOP? Maybe that had something to do with his "abjection" to this war being beyond discernment?

Julie
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #117
192. *sigh*
yanno I watched Clark on CNN and I sure as hell don't remember him speaking out against this war. In fact I was hardly able to discern what his feelings were on the matter.

It's long since been noted here that Clark did speak out, and there are a LOT of Dean supporters that have agreed... apparently their memory is more accurate (or less selective) then yours. Nevertheless, it's on the record. I seriously doubt you were watching CNN 24/7 and caught every segment of Clark, but maybe you're more accustomed to 24/7 denunciation of the Iraq war from Dean.

How many month prior was his last fundraising speech for the GOP? Maybe that had something to do with his "abjection" to this war being beyond discernment?

Clark was a paid speaker at a Repub fundraiser on May 11, 2001. He was not fundraising for them. Have you actually READ the speech? Aside from a few obligatory sentences praising certain members of the admin (including a very subtle dig at Condi Rice), other then a plug for his book, the speech is pretty much an essay on what we should be doing and a warning that we were going in the wrong direction...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004065
"Anyway, a lot of that is in my book. The title of the book is "Waging Modern War"; I'm not going to go through all of that tonight. But I'll just make a small prediction: When this book comes out, it may be World War III. Because when you're there, when you're a general and you're caught up in these things, it's just like politics or business or anything else--you know a lot of people with different ideas. And I hope that we have learned something out of this experience in the Balkans."

A prediction that by the time his book comes out we may be in World War III if we don't wise up... pretty ballsy thing to say at a Repub fundraiser for the current admin to predict disaster while under the watch of the current admin, huh?

So before 9/11 Clark does a paid speech that includes a few words of praise for the current admin while only a couple of weeks ago Dean praised Colin Powell and refused to answer whether or not he would consider Powell for his own admin should he be elected in an interview with Matthews on Hardball... and your point is??
http://msnbc.msn.com/Default.aspx?id=3607127&p1=01%7C%7C%7C%7C002

"Yanno", nothing you have said in your post addresses the issue at hand that Dean is being hypocritical as well as a liar... just some anti-Clark rhetoric and a selective or faulty memory.

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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #110
164. really really sounds like Dean
he wrote it to strengthen his puppet strings
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #110
194. Dean never bashed anyone with an Atwater Repuke scaremongering shitpiece.
But you think attacking Dems for not standing up to Bush = attacking Dems for not supporting a murderous imperialistic quagmire sold to the American public with a tissue of lies?
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
114. I was going to respond to several threads...
...but thought it best to sum up my thoughts in one post.

- Coming from someone who hasn't supported any candidate..this ad actually SUPPORTS GWB* and hurts the Democratic party in general. Saying that Dean or any other Dem candidate can't compete with Bush's* foreign policy plays right into the RWing talking point that Dems are weak on national security.

- If Dean does become the nominee...this ad plays right into the hands of the Bushie fascists. All Democrats should be concerned about this. If you're not...then you're too naive to be dabbling in politics.
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
118. I'm all for fair play, but how 'bout the pot admitting it's black, too?
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 09:28 AM by snoochie
I admit that the use of Osama is very, very low, but...

"Some Democrats have now taken their strategy of acting like Bush Lite to a new low..."

When did he start insulting the other candidates? I'm not sure but I'm fairly certain 'bush lite' wasn't the only grenade he lobbed early in his candidacy. And he started this very early didn't he?

:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
120. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PatrickS Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #120
125. This ad hurts every democrats
Because it actually says that Dumbya's foreign policy is working (which is not working at all). This ad is free publicity for Dumbya. It makes every Democrat leader look like a bunch of losers. Well, that's probably why Octafish likes it seeing the Kerry logo.

Anyone who supports this ad ain't a democrat.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #125
130. I've been a Democrat since 1976.
That was my first election. Since that time, I've done my bit for the Party and our causes.

You know what, PatrickS? I bet I've done more than Ho-Ho, friend of the GOP, has done. Apart from helping Jimmy Carter campaign, no one can find a single dime Dean's contributed to another DEMOCRAT.

Regarding that ad: I have not seen it. Neither have I endorsed it or disavowed its content. What's described above sounds pretty accurate as it pertains to Dean and his positions. What part is not true?

BTW: If you don't like that ad, wait until people start publicizing Dean's draft dodging. The truth hurts.

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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #125
198. The Democrats are trying to campain on W's coat tails.
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 05:10 PM by Code_Name_D
Again, just like they did in 2002.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
124. Is this like "changing the tone in DC" Pruner? Didn't you gloat
over Mathews declaring his hate for Clark/Clintons while fawning over dean on the Imus show on the day of the Clark Hardball appearance? Didn't you say: "I can't wait"?
Just so you know: Tweety didn't disappoint you, Clark didn't disappoint me. As a result, we got a lot more supporters, one being a guy who has been in the live audience all the Tweety shows and picked Clark as a result of that one.
I'm only bringing this up to remind people how much moral authoruty you (and your candidate) have to request assistance from any of us. Carry on!
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #124
147. Say it ain't so!
"Didn't you gloat over Mathews declaring his hate for Clark/Clintons while fawning over dean on the Imus show on the day of the Clark Hardball appearance?"

This is very disturbing to me. Very. Tweety likes Dean? If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then... this doesn't look very good to me. Not at all.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. Here's the entry from my blog - letter to Mathews:
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
126. This is being reported as
being bought and paid for by Democrats, I don't buy it, this reaks of Rove and is simply a preview of things to come. Is there anyone here that thinks this isn't just the type of ad that's going to be run next year?

This is just the type of ad Rove will use against us to expose whatever weak points our guys have and by dean being the most outspoken as claiming to have been against the war from the beginning it's natural to use just this type of ad against dean or any of the others that hold that stance.

For the dean folks to cry foul now is a bit hypocritical, wasn't it dean that just hired a top republican that considers it OK to raise money for dean in order to attack other Dems and justifies it by stating it won't hurt bush? Having said that let me add: If this ad was by Dems, it's tacky and wrong, if not it's no more than a preview and dean needs to address it.

This is just what I've been saying, by attacking first it puts us on the defensive, any ads we run will be used to defend ourselves instead of attacking bush, the more ammo we have to supply them with, the more their message jumps to the forefront of the attack and dispelling an attack never wins the argument in a 30 second TV ad.

All we have is truth, a negative ad either truthful or not can only be defended or ignored, if we focus strictly on defending the attack we loose, we need a nominee with less fodder for the right to attack with, one that can attack first or ignore the attack and keep "them" on the defensive. If this person isn't dean we need to know it now.

Welcome to Election 2004!


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”

So I read this book
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
127. Bush vs. Dean
Two uniters fighting it out for the presidency.Between the two it is possible that they will insult every living human on the planet!

It is refreshing to see a thread wherein democrats are insulting each other rather than all ganging up on Nader....oops now Ive done it.:nopity:
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
129. Comparing Dean's situation with Cleland's is highly offensive to me
The outrage there was that Cleland- a was called unpatriotic. Saying that dean lacks foreign policy experience - uh - I heard him referring to the Soviet Union, "even Costa Rica" and that was on his fawning friend Tweety...
There's a reason your guy (and followers) push the Clark VP meme: you know it is true - Dean knows bubkus about the world.
As for war on terror - I agree. It is unfair to attack dean on this, considering that he said W was so great on that in spite of Gore's and Ted kennedy's criticisms. (TPM, Janusry). But then again, Max Cleland also voted for the tax cut, before being called unpatriotic.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
132. There is someone who contributed to another campaign involved?
That is enough proof for me. There is now no doubt in my mind that Gephardt and Kerry are behind this ad. There is also no doubt in my mind that not only are their campaigns over, so is their career in politics. Dean has enough supports in each of their states to influence both of their re-elections to the current positions and I don't see any Dean supporters voting for either of them after this. Neither will get my vote if they are nominated, either. What a couple of pathetic egomaniacs.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
140. You think this ad is unfair?
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 11:39 AM by msmcghee
The quoted ad - We live in a very dangerous world. And there are those who wake up every morning determined to destroy western civilization. Americans want a President who can face the dangers ahead. But Howard Dean has no military or foreign policy experience. And Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy. It’s time for Democrats to think about that… and think about it now.

The only sentence that is not already proven true is And Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy. But I gurantee that significant numbers of average Americans already believe that.

If Dean had Clark's or Kerry's war and/or foreign policy credibility it would be a slam dunk for Dean (the nomination, not the presidency). But he doesn't. That's not RW spin. That's reality.

I think it's better that Dean prove he can overcome this handicap (and these ads) now against Dem opponents than later against Bush*. I expect Bush's* ads against Dean would be far more damaging than this.

Predation makes the species stronger.

After watching that shrill, vicious RW WSJ editorial writer last nite on NOW plug Dean as the one who could really give Bush* a run for the money - I am very worried.

I like all three - but I want the nominee to be the one most able to crush the BFEE*.

Here is Dean's chance to show me he can do it.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #140
144. Yes the ad is unfair
We didn't learn this in Georgia in 2002? Are the anntention spans of Americans as dismally short as I now suspect?
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #140
158. He was asked on his fan's show (hardball) -" what are your credentials
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 01:08 PM by robbedvoter
on foreign policy? "Uh, I just spoke with so and so...."
It's a good thing Clark just debunked the VP hoax (Dean asked him in September, Clark said "NO"), or else he would have used his name again, like he did to get the Unions endorsement.
I can talk to so and so too - it don't make me an expert! Valid issue - no satisfying answer
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #158
162. Scary thought:
that was bush's line during his campaign... and it managed to fool enough people to get him elected.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. Scarier thought: the guy who loses it if someone gets in his face,
having access to the button. Someone who won't rather spend his time on the treadmill or with the gameboy, but just as arrogant and vengeful...
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #140
195. It's a fucking Atwater Repuke scaremongering shitpiece!
"George Bush makes us all safe by killing thousands of random towelheads! Democrats can't compete!"

You like that message?

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Romberry Donating Member (632 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
146. The effect on me was to log on and send Dean another...
...hundred bucks. And that comes from someone who is broke, broke, broke -- Christmas and all that -- and had decided he would not send another dime to anyone until well after the first of the year!

Democrats who resort to desperate measures like this obscene ad, deperate measures taken because their campaigns are stuck in the mud -- are the reason why we are where we are today.

My committment to ABB is intact but if Kerry or Gephardt should be the nominee it will be severly strained.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #146
149. thanks for donating to the Dean campaign!
:hi:
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
156. So Pruner, Dean no longer thinks W is great on terrorism?
I am confused. You write:
Osama bin Laden is still at large because the President turned his attention away from al Qaeda to pursue his war with Iraq—the war that every major candidate
But a fem month ago, Dean was bashing Kerry and --gasp--Gore for saying it!
Dean, July 2002:
Russert plays clips of Gore and Kerry criticizing Bush on military strategy:
 MR. RUSSERT: Do you believe the military operation in Afghanistan has been successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: Yes, I do, and I support the president in that military operation.
       
       MR. RUSSERT: The battle of Tora Bora was successful?
       
       GOV. DEAN: I’ve seen others criticize the president. I think it’s very easy to second-guess the
       commander-in-chief at a time of war. I don’t choose to engage in doing that.


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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #156
160. *shaking head sadly*
What's with this guy?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
165. What a bunch of claptrap
Doesn't Dean have the support from people BECAUSE he attacked fellow Democrats in the first place?

Calling the other candidates "Bush-Lite" and stealing Wellstone's "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" is not attacking the other candidates?

Not liking the taste of your own medicine, Deaniacs? Too bad.
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Fahrenheit911 Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
166. too right Dean..
Edited on Sat Dec-13-03 01:19 PM by Fahrenheit911
I really don't like this ad - because Dean is really good on the issues (except Gun control)
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #166
167. me either, and it legitimizes Bush's foreign policy
for chrissakes!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
171. These fu**ers could help hand Bush the election....
this is outrageous! Contribution on the way...
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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
172. That ad is wrong, but you are a hypocrite.
Sorry to make it personal, but your favorite hobby is starting attack ads against Dennis Kucinich and never even bothering to look at them again. For that, I can't find myself capable of taking anything you say seriously. Start treating other campaigns with respect and then, maybe, you can ask for the same.
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catherineD Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
175. Signal that many Dems really dislike Dean?
It's interesting that former members of several campaigns would band together on this, presumably because that's how much they don't like Dean or don't believe Dean can be elected. Perhaps they feel it's their patriotic duty to air such a commercial, to derail Dean now before it's too late and he's our nominee. Try to remember that Dean has been getting unofficial "commercials" from the right-wing press who have been trying to maneuver Democrats into picking Dean, because they believe he will be easy to defeat. So it's obviously a conclusion that many people have come to, not just people who have affiliations with other campaigns.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #175
180. The point is irrelevant.
Carter's administration cheered when Reagan got the republican nod. The senior Bush team danced when Clinton became the nominee....he was a reputed womanizer, after all.

Neither party has a very good history of identifying it's weakest or strongest opponent.

The fact is, this ad is slanderous and based in fear-mongering tactics which our party typically despises.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #175
182. let's just wait til the primaries
we'll see who dilikes who. I am a longtime Dem who likes Kerry.But this is just disgusting
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mdguss Donating Member (631 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #182
184. No if you want to be president:
You have to get used to being attacked. Attacking people in the primary helps voters see who has the ability to respond adequately and in a measured tone.

You think Bush won't attack Dean? He will. And Dean will be better served, and a better candidate, by having the experience of being attacked in the primary.

Attacks are part of politics. A fair, though negative, ad in my mind.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #175
196. The ad's message is that Bush is better than Dean on foreign policy.
Is that a Democratic or Repuke message?
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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
199. These same people were probably going to vote for Bush anyway
Sick tactics, but it has come down to this, I guess. George W. Bush has the experience all right; everything he's done has failed, and he has done absolutely nothing about the terrorists.
I'm still for Howard Dean, and nothing can change my mind..
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-03 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
200. I am locking this.
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