Have we been given any evidence that the brothers Hussein are really dead?

[stickdog]

As opposed to their "doubles" or just some poor random saps who sort of looked like them?

Note how strategically the news has been managed. We were told to that the Pentagon "confirmed" that the brothers Hussein were killed almost the moment we heard the news of a "battle." Since then, all the "controversy" has focused on releasing some gruesome pictures and/or paying out millions of dollars -- aftermath events which, by themselves, prove absolutely nothing. But these "controversies" give the illusion that there is no question whatsoever about the identities of the bodies -- while they actually conveniently look completely past this very question.

Have the deaths of the actual brothers Hussein been confirmed by any independent sources with enough firsthand familiarity with these two to make reliable positive identifications (plus no known pro-Bush and/or pro-Hussein agenda)?

[Mz Pip]

1. Dental records

and scars from a gunshot wound.

I know this administration lies about a lot of things but what possible reason would they have to lie about killing these two? If they are not dead they could make a video tape holding a newspaper and send it to the media. I don't see BushCo risking that. They would look even more foolish than they already are.

Whatever momentary boost they would get from declaring the Hussein bros dead would be lost and then some.

The dudes are dead and it really hasn't helped BushCo that much.

MzPip
:dem:

[Devils Advocate NZ]

2. Sorry to burst your bubble...

But the Bush regime has every reason to lie about their deaths, and even the Hussein Brothers themselves have every reason to lie about their deaths.

Avenging the death of a family member by killing the perpetrator or a member of the perpetrators family is an almost universal tradition in Arab/Muslim cultures, so it would be highly surprising if the Husseins weren't terrified of the possibility of being hunted down by families of their victims.

Also, if we go back to the last days of the "major combat operations" we see that the three forces that were commanded by these two men suddenly and inexplicably disappeared. It was only later that we learned that a deal had been struck with the "commanders" of those forces to get them to disperse. At the time, no actual commander was named, but as I said, Uday and Qusay were the overall commanders, and they disappeared too. Until, supposedly, now.

I believe that it was Uday and Qusay who struck the deals to abandon Baghdad, and it was part of that deal that they eventually turn up "dead" so that Bush could have a propaganda victory, and they could avoid the revenge of their victims families.

So there is a damned good reason why both Bush and the Husseins would like us to believe they are dead, and why neither side need fear that the lie would be exposed by the other.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

4. They are dumb and stupid but not THAT dumb and stupid.

They would not take the chance of destroying what little credibility they have left by claiming the deaths of Uday and Qusay ONLY TO HAVE THEM APPEAR IN A BAGHDAD SHOPPING CENTER SAYING "THE RUM0RS OF OUR DEATHS WERE A BIT PREMATURE". Seriously, no way, no how whould they risk that.

[stickdog]

7. What?

1) The fake deaths would be in the brothers Hussein's interests, too.

2) If the brothers were to pull that kind of a stunt their actual deaths would immediately ensue.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

15. No, no, no . . . they would want to "gloat" that America got

caught in another lie. They would love to give Bush the finger and say, "nanny nanny boo - boo" . . . "missed us, missed us!"

[stickdog]

17. At the expense of their lives?

Dude, these were secular mafia types.

They know there is a new Godfather in town, and they know when they are outmuscled.

It's like you think they are some characters in a Polish joke rather than sane human beings concerned with self-preservation and their quality of life.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

20. It's silly not to think they would love to prove America is still lying.

I just don't get your point.

[charlie]

21. Wellll

It was Saddam who was wrapped up in the glory of Iraq and Arab triumphalism. His boys were just provincial thugs.

[stickdog]

25. No, you are silly to think that they'd put "proving America is lying"

above their own health and well being.

That is precisely my point. And it couldn't be any clearer.

[bunnyhop]

3. R U serious? They had a huge reason to lie about this

The bush gang needed something to take the release of the 9-11 report off the front pages. This has all been another rove distraction by lies. And don't tell us the hussein boys could make a video proving they are alive. That's when the media would start talking about doubles.

[stickdog]

6. I don't think you understand.

The brothers Hussein would have had to be complicit in this scheme.

Benefit from Rove's POV:

Sorely needed "good news" on the Iraq front.

Benefits from the brothers' point of view:

This would dissuade revenge seekers from spending their lives in pursuit of these two murderers.

They would have something on the Americans that would give them a feeling of safety.

Note that the owner of the house was the perfect middle man to make such a deal happen. Do you suppose he could feel safe for the rest of his life if he REALLY betrayed the Hussein clan as he purported? Remember that the style of government in Iraq resembled nothing more than a mafia operation.

[birdman]

23. So the owner of the house called Karl Rove

to broker a deal that would let the Hussein brothers get
away but allow the administration to claim they were dead
and of course Rove takes calls from Iraqi landlords all
the time.

Four stooges who just happened to look the Husseins (right down
to the leg wound that one of them had) and their companions
were then inserted into the house and the stooges instead of
surrendering decide to fight it out with the troops finally
getting killed after a six hour battle.

Did Rove tell Bush and Cheney and Rummy about this or did
he just do it on his own ?



That Karl Rove - he's everywhere.

Stop it - my sides are hurting so bad I can't look for the strawberries.

[stickdog]

26. If ain't the strawman king suiting up to tilt at his strawmen!

I merely used Rove's name as a shorthand for "the Bush Administration's electoral/PR interests" since he is widely perceived to reign over that domain.

Now let's look at your strawmen:

Rove takes calls from Iraqi landlords all the time.

Somebody in the Bush Administration set up a little deal with our Iraqi middleman, regardless of how this went down. Right?

Four stooges who just happened to look the Husseins

Four? Have you seen more than two? When? Where?

(right down to the leg wound that one of them had)

Whoa! Now that would be a impossible task, wouldn't it? I mean, finding a wounded man in Iraq! Who has ever heard of such a thing!

and the stooges instead of surrendering decide to fight it out

Really? They decided to "fight it out"? Who told you that? A little birdy, maybe?

with the troops finally getting killed after a six hour battle.

But it is believable that 3 men and a teenager could give 200 US Special Forces a "six hour battle"?




Shazam! You can't get anything past ol' birdman!

[birdman]

32. Okay any attempt to visit planet earth is a strawman

You said Rove but you didn't mean Rove you really meant some
vague conglomeration of Bushies. But really you said Rove
- shouldn't Rove be a part of this ?

Iraqi middlemen ? Any names ? Any sources ?

There were four people in the building who wound up dead.
In your scenario they have to be unwitting elements of the
conspiracy.

I'm sure there are gazillions of Iraqi's who look look
just like Husseins son who have wounds in the same part of
their leg that the dead individual has.


I guess the gun battle that everyone witnessed didn't really
happen. It was a Rove creation.


The Hussein brothers must have the strawberries

[stickdog]

35. Any attempt to leave planet strawman is met with a strawman.

Here is EVERYTHING I've said in this ENTIRE THREAD that even mentioned Rove:


Benefit from Rove's POV:

Sorely needed "good news" on the Iraq front.


Now then, did that say ANYTHING about Rove controlling the universe, strawman king? Or did it simply say exactly what it said -- namely, that from Rove's POV a deal to fake Cain & Abel's death would have been politically beneficial?

Yes, I realize that's a trick question for you.

So here's a far easier one: who is obsessed with Rove in this thread, you or me?


birdman said: Iraqi middlemen ? Any names ? Any sources ?


Um, just our favorite multi-millionaire, Nawaf al-Zaidan. Or did you somehow forget about him?


birdman said: There were four people in the building who wound up dead. In your scenario they have to be unwitting elements of the conspiracy.


You mean like the 10,000 other Iraqi civilians who have been "unwitting elements" in this "conspiracy"?


birdman said: I'm sure there are gazillions of Iraqi's who look look just like Husseins son who have wounds in the same part of their leg that the dead individual has.


Well, you got me there, I'll admit. Yep, the idea that a Hussein could actually have a double is completely outrageous!


birdman said: I guess the gun battle that everyone witnessed didn't really happen.


Who is "everyone"? Can you supply one Iraqi quote that confirmed the supposed two sided nature of this supposed 6 hour raging battle between three men and 200 of our finest Special Ops?

And if you were a Hussein brother double strangely ordered to meet at a house where you encountered another Hussein brother double, and then the owner of the house slipped out just as US troops surrounded you, do you think you might just put 2 + 2 together and realize that you weren't getting out of there alive by flying a white flag?

Or perhaps you think a Rovian mind ray would somehow block any such thoughts out of their heads?



Shazam! You can't get anything past ol' birdman!

[Chicagonian]

8. exactly right.

It would be insane to fake the deaths...when they showed up alive, whatever slivers of credibility The Junta still hold at home, around the world, and in the arab world in particular- would be lost forever.

lotsa wrong trees being barked up around here lately, it seems.

[stickdog]

9. And when and where would they show up alive, knowing that doing so

would seal their deaths?

Have we seen Osama and Saddam "showing up alive" anytime recently?

Note that many experts think they are both alive. So why aren't they "showing up alive"?

Could it be that "showing up alive" might be extremely hazardous to their health?

And wouldn't it be even more hazardous to the well being of the "those now dead (and mutilated beyond recognition) hardline Baathist doubles who somehow thought they could pull off such a stunt just to embarrass the United States"?

[Chicagonian]

10. ummm....anywhere?

I also notice that The Junta hasn't put the "bodies" of Osama or Sadaam on display...wouldn't those bodies be a better PR device that the bodies of U and Q?

if they were going to fake a couple of deaths, why not choose sadaam and osama rather than those two?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm??

[stickdog]

18. BECAUSE THE PEOPLE YOU "CHOOSE" HAVE TO BE COMPLICIT!

I have a feeling that it may have gone past that point for Osama & Saddam, don't you?

If not, I'd expect a September/October surprise, wouldn't you?

[charlie]

19. We're not close enough to the election yet

:)

[IggleDoer]

33. Holding up today's newspaper?

Couldn't Uday and Qusay's body doubles do that too.

[patrice]

5. Ouday and Qusay were part of a deal that Saddam

(if he is still alive) made with his Iraqi successors, to collect the reward money, and allow Saddam to "disappear" one way or another. All will lay low for a while then the rate of increase in guerilla activity will rise.

What happened to all of those Royal Guard? How were they being paid, where is their money now, and what kinds of controls are there over it?

Why were Ouday and Qusay almost alone when cornered?

[bpilgrim]

11. you mean like DNA? who needs that when we got pictures

peace

[Clete]

12. Yes, the best one.

Credit goes to my husband for this insight. He said that when the relatives come forward to ask to bury them, then both the Iraqis and the rest of the world will know for sure they probably are dead. A funeral conducted by those closest to them would be a good affirmation. A cousin has come forward asking to bury them. I think it would have been better if they had been turned over to their mother and sisters for burial so there would be 99.9% confirmation they are dead.

[stickdog]

22. Which "cousin"?

I assume the Husseins have cousins out the wazoo.

Why wouldn't the brothers Hussein let some of their family in on the scam in order to give the proceedings a veneer of believability?

[Clete]

27. Possibly but would they think about it?

It seems they wouldn't want to be bothered about a funeral if it wasn't one of them. But then what to I know about the Arab mind except what I have read.

[stickdog]

28. Folks, the Hussein family can't be said to represent the "Arab Mind"

any more than the Colombo family can be said to represent the "Latin Mind."

[DUreader]

13. Have we any evidence the Hussein or Usama ever stopped working with Poppy?

?

[sandnsea]

14. Pick your battles

This is such a silly thing to get worked up over. If they're not dead, we'll know in time, just like we have again and again with this Administration and their killing and capturing people. In the meantime, it just makes Democrats look petty when baseless accusations are thrown around. I think we do more damage to ourselves than Republicans could ever manage. They wouldn't have so much fodder if we didn't give it to them.

[leesa]

16. Probably right. It usually doesn't take too long for Bush's

dead Muslims to resurrect.

[stickdog]

24. Who's worked up? Is it now considered a "battle" to ask a simple question?

I just wanted to know what, if any, the presented evidence was, just how many Iraqis actually find it persuasive, and why or why not.

If you can shed some light on the topic, I'm all ears.

Otherwise, I will remain calmly agnostic about the whole affair.

[sandnsea]

30. If I hadn't seen it asked ad nauseum

I wouldn't have posted a response at all, which I haven't when I've seen it posted over and over and over and over. I just don't know why people get all worked up over these two when there are so many more important and valid issues to discuss. It makes us look like we'll jump at any crazy thing to try and discredit Bush. And if that isn't the intent of your post, sorry.

[stickdog]

31. I've just been very busy this week, and I was just trying to see if there

was some shred of definitive or even semi-definitive evidence presented that I missed.

In lieu of this, however, I'm not inclined to welcome a slew of illogical attacks simply for keeping an open mind when it comes to trusting this administration at its word.

[diamond14]

29. now, pResident Idiot is giving $30 million to SADDAM's cousin

what is that craziness ?

of course, pResident Idiot gave osama and his Taliban $43 million for "foreign aid" in May 2001, which no doubt funded 9/11/2001 attacks..

some brave American BEGGED shrub NOT TO GIVE $$$ to OSAMA....
read it here...May 2001....

_____________________
Bush's Faustian Deal With the Taliban
By Robert Scheer
Published May 22, 2001 in the Los Angeles Times

http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/01_columns/052201.htm

-snips-
.........the recent gift of $43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the most virulent anti-American violators of human rights in the world today. The gift, announced last Thursday by Secretary of State Colin Powell, in addition to other recent aid, makes the U.S. the main sponsor of the Taliban and rewards that "rogue regime" for declaring that opium growing is against the will of God. So, too, by the Taliban's estimation, are most human activities, but it's the ban on drugs that catches this administration's attention.

Never mind that Osama bin Laden still operates the leading anti-American terror operation from his base in Afghanistan, from which, among other crimes, he launched two bloody attacks on American embassies in Africa in 1998.

[pruner]

34. most US press reports I've read seem to include the phrase...

"according to US/administration/military sources" when referring to the confirmation that it's them.

it's almost like they're saying "well, we haven't been able to verify these claims so we're just reporting what we've been told, and not making any judgements as to the veracity of the statements...that's up to you."

[ObaMania]

36. Not only that, but...

One of the bro's had his chest sewn up like an autopsy was performed on him. :wtf: