From Miami Herald: Florida Democrats Worry as Gore Endorses Dean....

[flpoljunkie]

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/politics/7456441.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Posted on Wed, Dec. 10, 2003

CAMPAIGN 2004 | DEMOCRATS

Fla. Democrats worry as Gore supports Dean

In Florida, some Democratic leaders say they're worried that nominating Howard Dean -- who is staunchly opposed to the Iraq war -- risks turning off centrist voters who decide close races.

BY PETER WALLSTEN

With a surprising endorsement Tuesday from Al Gore, Howard Dean won something that widening leads in polls of early primary states and massive fundraising success had not yet achieved: the legitimacy of a national party standard-bearer.

But in Florida, one of the nation's most coveted states in presidential politics and the most poignant symbol of Gore's 2000 recount loss, some Democratic leaders say they remain worried that anointing Dean in 2004 risks turning off centrist voters who will decide close races up and down the ballot.

''The reality is that there are some who have major concerns over Dean's candidacy,'' said state Sen. Rod Smith of Gainesville, a former prosecutor who is being pushed by centrist Democrats as a candidate for governor in 2006. ``We don't know that much yet, but those of us who come from a part of the state where moderate Democratic politics is the rule want to make sure that the Democratic Party has someone with whom everybody can be comfortable.''

Democratic strategists in Florida are most concerned that Dean's stiff opposition to the Iraq war will hurt candidates vying for other jobs -- particularly in the open U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Democrat Bob Graham -- and that Republicans would easily paint him as ``angry.''

...more...

This follow a recent article from Orlando Sentinel on same topic of Dean's electability in the South. We are angry in Florida, but we would like to put forward the candidate who has the best chance to beat George Bush--that man is not Howard Dean. I hope the media will see fit to cover this event.

John Kerry would make the best president we have had in my lifetime; he has spent his political life fighting entrenched special interests, particularly, the BFEE. I admire him tremendously.

Next on my list for who would make the best president is Wesley Clark. Charley Rangel's endorsement of Wes Clark in Harlem tomorrow will make quite a contrast to the Gore/Dean event yesterday, which was very noticeably short of people of color.

[theboss]

1. From a pure entertainment standpoint, this is going to be fun

If you can step back for a moment and forget that the future of the nation is at stake, the bloodbath that is about to take place inside the Democratic Party is going to be political theater at its best. It will be political junkie heaven.

Good times. (Unless of course you actually care about the future of our nation . . . in which case, bad times).

[absyntheNsugar]

6. Sadly...I agree with you

Dean is a big gamble. I like him, and he's the candidate who most closely matches my stances on issues - but like I've said before it is going to take a lot of work to get Dean into the White House.

IMHO, Clark will be a much easier sell to the American People, and he's a knotch slightly further to the left from Dean. I like Clark too and will be voiting for him in the primary for the 'easier sell' reason.

But you are absolutely correct - this may be the vote that splits the Democratic party apart. Liberals from New Dems, Blue Dogs from Green Dogs. Watchers of international politics will note a similar event took place in Britain when the Liberals and Labor parties split - bringing in the reign of Thatcher and her Tories. God have mercy on us all if such a thing should happen - Thatcher pretty much destroyed the UK's social safety nets and threw them back about 50 years. It took until Blair's coalition for them to start on damage control again.

[CWebster]

10. STOP DOING THE RIGHTS WORK FOR THEM

None of our candidates are a gamble.


(&^$%$%&&%$%&^*(!!!!!!!!

[absyntheNsugar]

13. All candidates are a gamble....

It's just some have better odds than others. I agree, a lot can change between now and November. If Bush continues as he has, with no new jobs...the Dems could run a Ferret and get him elected.

But...the Repubs are big on surprises. It's how they won in 1980 and it's how they got Nixon re-elected.

I'm not doing the Right's work for them - but to run into this election without body armor and a nice boom stick would be foolish. Too much is at stake.

If Dean wins (as he most likely will) we need to think strategy, strategy, strategy! The Dean Defense Corps is probably our best hope at that.

[CWebster]

18. the very first piece of body armor you adorn

Is the winning mindset.

[msmcghee]

24. It's not our bodies that need armour.

It's that 20% in the middle who will decide the election. The invasion is dead as an issue. It happened several months ago with the approval of a majority of Americans.

Running a campaign telling those people they were idiots is not a very smart way to spend limited campaign funds - donated by people who want you to use them to win - not to die on some ideological cross.

[absyntheNsugar]

28. I disagree re: the Invasion

As long as US Troops return in body bags, this is an issue. A good strategy would be to get with the relatives of the troops killed and tell their stories in campaign ads. Exploitive? Perhaps. Kid gloves have to be off tho.

As for the winning mindset - rose colored glasses do nothing to protect you.

BTW...I dont think Dean is doomed. I think there is a lot of new technology (Dean Defense Corps is one) that can win this one. But this will be battle of Stalingrad type of election. Don't expect much in the spoils of war left over.

[msmcghee]

29. Of course I think the invasion was a terrible mistake . .

. . on many levels for our nation. We will be paying for it for decades.

But those costs have not made a big impression yet on most Americans - although that number is growing. The real world out there is far diffent from what you see and hear on DU.

We should use that growing awareness as a powerful part of our strategy. But it would be foolish to base our strategy on that. Most Americans are not ready to condemn the BFEE over that. Most still think it was at least OK, while many think it was laudable.

Almost all Americans, however are very uneasy about the economy, for example. Instead of using campaign funds to get more Americans to hate the war, why not use issues that they are already upset about - and make sure they know we are on the side that will reduce their fear of those issues - and Bush* is the guy who created their fear and will make it worse. That's a much easier sell.

I'm sure the pukes would love to see us orgainize our whole campaign around national security. But it would be a big mistake.

I know that doesn't satisfy those here who would rather that we go down in flames while yelling how much more moral we are than our enemies - but it might give us a better chance in the election.

[absyntheNsugar]

35. "It's the economy, stupid"

I agree with you that the economy should be brought up to the front - and I think it's a major issue and weakness the Dems could exploit. It's what won Clinton the White House, and it's what can unseat Bush in 2004.

But...don't write the war issue off yet. This is a heartstrings issue, and can always be used to that end.

Bascially if we take a "heartstrings and pocketbooks" approach to 2004 we can have it in the bag.

[polpilot]

39. For those of us who have supported and believed the race would

develop as it has there is absolutely no fear or surprises thus far. I have followed a brilliant Dean campaign from an * to being endorsed by Gore yesterday. I believe the Dean surge HASN'T BEGUN yet and it will not resemble ANY presidential race in history.

Dean '04...E-Z

[absyntheNsugar]

52. Let's hope so...

But we would be crazy to think it will be an easy ride.

If Dean gets the nom, I think all DU'ers should be working the Dean Defense Corps - that seems to be his biggest strength.

In the words of the immortal Jim Morrison "They got the guns but we got the numbers."

[msmcghee]

17. All our candidates are a gamble.

That's the point. Improve the odds.

Whoops, looks some similarity of thoughts here. ;-)

[Skwmom]

19. Stop playing into the rights hands

by nominating the person who is the longest shot to beat Bush in 04.

[RetroLounge]

38. "who is the longest shot to beat Bush in 04"

I assume, as you are a Dean Basher, you mean Dean.

Care to back that up with any proof.

Or will you admit it's just YOUR OPINION.

Well?

:cry:

[Snivi Yllom]

63. extra messy

But it is battle long in the making.

[Hep]

2. Wow, more FAKE concern.

Dems in FL are so worried, Dean holds a lead! You know where you can stick the fake concern.

[Kosmos Mariner]

44. Deanies THINK they know Florida?!?!

It is unbelievable how many people here think that Dean is just going to waltz in Florida with his "aura of inevitability" campaign and win. I suppose you are going to tell us Floridians how Florida politics works!? What a JOKE! Democratic politics in Florida is 100% MODERATE, with only South Florida having a hint of left wing ideology. I wish Florida was more progressive, but it is not. And Florida IS the most "LIBERAL" state in the south by far.

Dean is not going to fly here. Even though he is right of someone like Clark, he sells himself as a liberal revolution. He is going to sink himself with bad marketing. Look at EVERY prominent and successful FLA Dem politician, they sell a MODERATE DEM platform in the election, and then try to nudge the electorate left once in office. Bob Graham was the master of this. Know your audience!

Floridians consistently back progressive constitutional amendments, and laws. People just don't want revolutions, and fire & brimestone in paradise. People here, and in the south in general don't want to be pissed off all the time. I've lived up north as well, and there is a clear difference in mentality. People like Wes Clark here, and he will motivate and uplift citizens, usher in progressive ideas, and radically change the disasterous course this country is headed in. Not only would Dean lose big here, he would screw Dems at all levels of government. It will be much worse in the rest of the south. I KNOW, I live here.

P.S. Florida's most left-leaning newspaper(and best), the St. Petersburg Times even ran a similar article today about state Dems being very uneasy about a Dean candidacy.

:dem:

[Hep]

49. You read an awful lot into what I say

It would be nice if you asked questions rather than jumping to conclusions. I didn't say one thing that isn't true. Dems might be scared, but Dean is still in the lead in FL.

[Kosmos Mariner]

50. Scared?

We are not scared here. I am just trying to tell fellow Dems, what the politics are like down here. We want to win, and boot Bush and his righty ideology. The person to do that is Wes Clark. The man is progressive, but his packaging is palatable to independents and mod. repugs.

Clark '04!


:dem:

[Hep]

53. whatever you say!

Scared, worried, whatever the original post said. My point was that FL isn't worried at all. They're just as angry and devoted to beating Bush as everyone else. If it's through Dean, so be it, if Clark, so be it.

[CMT]

3. lastest Florida poll

has Dean losing to Bush by only 8-points (the same margin as Clark) and running better vs. Bush than Kerry, Lieberman, or Gep.

[CWebster]

4. What is the point or being fearful or cowering

They are going to attack any of them ruthlessly. Look what they did to the war vet, Cleland. The reason they are playing games with Dean is because he is at the top of the heap.

I say hit them fast and hard and keep up the pace.

[absyntheNsugar]

11. That's where I have hope

Clark has a great chance to beat Bush, but he does play fair and all it would take is a few strategic attacks against him (like those used against Cleland) and being that he has never run for office, he would react to slowly.

Dean is fire and anger. When he's attacked, he bounces back fast, with a faked right and left connect. With what Rove and his scoundrels are going to lay against him, we will need a fighter.

[CWebster]

14. They will tear clark limb to limb -

don't think any of them are immune.

Face this, just fucking face this:

Clark was fired from the Pentagon, do you understand that? Clark prefers that we refer to it as being encouraged to retire early, but for crying out loud, you don't really think the Right is really going to honor his request?

Are you all under mass hynosis? You think the Right is going to breathe a word about what they got on him?

We might as well fight as Democrats then lose trying to be adhere to the Republican model.

[SaintLouisBlues]

37. STOP DOING THE RIGHTS WORK FOR THEM

None of our candidates are a gamble

[CWebster]

42. Except this isn't about being unelectible on account of anger

or lack of experience that everyone here highlights without studying the reality of the nightmare Bush and the Republicans got us into, this is about a reality about a candidate's SOLE CLAIM of superior military credentials that can be used to bring him down.

[INTELBYTES]

54. I'm glad someone said it.

The pukes have not even began pulling out their dirty tricks. They are saving their fireworks for who ever gets the Dems nomination. Clark has a lot of skeletons and a lot of ex-comrades waiting to come out and shred him. We don't even know the extent yet. While Clark might be the best, imho, the right is just frothing for him to get the nomination. Dean is more of an open book. Even though they will try to ravage him, I believe he has less liablities than Clark.

[in_cog_ni_to]

67. The right is foaming at the mouth to

go after whoever the nominee is. Why not vote for the one with the best chance of winning? Clark's not afaid of KKKRove. In fact, KKKRove may have met his match in Clark. Clark will kick ass against those people. No doubt in my mind.

[Tatiana]

61. That's not true.

The PENTAGON said it was an early retirement. Clark himself, in his book, and in countless interviews said he was fired.

And if people take the time to listen to the reasons why the Pentagon got rid of him, I think they'd like Clark even more.

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. CWebster,

Now I know you know the true story about Clark's retirement and his policy disagreement with Shelton and Cohen. It's been explained to you over and over and over. If THAT is what the shrub throws at Clark there's plenty of video tape of Cohen praising Clark at his retirement ceremony and Shelton is standing right there by his side. Clark will wipe the floor with this administration and isn't the least bit intimidated by them. He also has President Clinton who can back him up on the facts of what really happened. THAT issue will be a non-issue come election time.

[Donna Zen]

68. Of course you know that is untrue

Clark was fired from the Pentagon, do you understand that?

Does hyping that out right--very rightwing--lie make you feel so superior to everyone? Does it make you feel powerful? Or does it just remind you that Ralston, the republican general, turned lobbyist now works for Dean.

Ah_Ralston, the man who got caught in a fire-storm because of an affair with a CIA agent. The man who thought it proper and fit when an airforce WOMAN, was court marshalled and forced to leave the service because of the same thing. But when his turn was up, the brass tried to smooth it over. Then he needed a place to go because he was going to forced to retire. Up or out. So, Shelton (R) and Cohen (R) lied to Clinton and forced Clark into retirement 3 months early. It is all so easy for republicans with no respect or honor.

So everytime you post that lie--and I don't expect you to ever for a minute stop--remember who and what party you are siding with: weapons contractors and republicans. Nice company to be keeping if carrying GOP is your thing.

Please continue. What's your next one? OMG he's a republican!!!!!! Well, my dear, I would think that R-size shoe is fitting you very well by now.

[Cheswick2.0]

5. both Dean and Gore are correct on this issue

Does that mean nothing? Are we really going to aks candidates to now take the wrong position to satisfy voters who still think Saddam had something to do with 9-11? We have now murdered thousands of Iraqi people for a lie. Mr Walsten I suggest you educate the people of florida not pander to them. After all aren't they the people who couldn't even turn Jeb out of office after the fiasco election in 2000?

[Iverson]

7. maybe it means that invasion is moderate

If so, I wouldn't want to know what's extreme.

[msmcghee]

20. Yes, the invasion is moderate.

According to average Americans - the ones who will be voting to elect the next president.

We far-lefties always get ideology mixed up with campaign politics. They are two different things. Not because of some missalignment in the universe but due to the "winner-take-all" nature of our election laws. Failure to understand that will be our downfall.

[Cheswick2.0]

31. I truly believe people are uninformed and need information

not that they would believe the invasion was the right thing to do if they knew the truth or understood the issues.

[fishnfla]

9. Yes and Janet Reno could not either

She did not even win the Dem. nomination!

[fishnfla]

8. If Dean is the candidate, Bush takes FL , 53%-47%

There is just not enough anti-war, anti-bush sentiment here.

Martinez also walks awy with the open Sen. seat

[Hep]

16. What kind of odds are you giving?

n/t

[fishnfla]

21. I'll bet you 1000 dollars right here,right now

straight up,even odds

on edit: i have to go back to work, if you want to take the bet, pm me

[Hep]

25. $1000 on 53-47%?

What's the margin of error? That's a pretty stupid bet for you to make.

[dansolo]

27. But that doesn't mean those numbers won't change 11 months from now.

Most people can't even name any of the Democratic candidates. Right now, Dean doesn't have the name recognition, and most people haven't been paying attention to the Democratic candidates. They only hear the pro-Bush media point of view. The fact that Dean, who has been characterized as a northeastern anti-war liberal, is polling within 6% of Bush in Florida is pretty amazing.

[Hep]

30. Don't throw the bet!

I was going to score a cool grand! Don't convince this overconfident person to back out!

[Eloriel]

64. If the voting machines aren't fixed, Bush will take FL anyway n/t

[LeahMira]

12. If Florida voters pay attention...

''The reality is that there are some who have major concerns over Dean's candidacy,'' said state Sen. Rod Smith of Gainesville, a former prosecutor who is being pushed by centrist Democrats as a candidate for governor in 2006. "We don't know that much yet, but those of us who come from a part of the state where moderate Democratic politics is the rule want to make sure that the Democratic Party has someone with whom everybody can be comfortable.''

They will find that Dean is very "centrist."

Really... when we have an administration that makes "John Boy Walton" look like a red-eyed radical, perspectives get skewed.

[ieoeja]

15. This worries me.

Dean's position on Iraq should be extremely palatable to swing voters ... if they know what it is as opposed to what the Right tells them it is via their coordinated media appearances. Local, trusted individuals (i.e. those running for local office) would stand the best of chance of combating Rightwing spin out of Washington.

Unfortunately, it sounds like many Democrats running local campaigns are going to distance themselves from the Democratic presidential candidate leaving the Rightwing spin not only unchallenged by local Democrats, but actually championed by them. Are the local Democrats too stupid to understand/explain Dean's position on Iraq, or just opportunistic?

[msmcghee]

22. They are not stupid.

They just want to be elected. That's why they are running.

Not to put a democrat in the whitehouse. Running against the Iraq Invasion is a loser for (well over) half of Americans out there.

[ieoeja]

48. Because they don't know any better.

And apparently there are no leaders within their community willing to explain the situation to them.

[msmcghee]

51. I understand what you are saying.

But that teaching process has to come before the campaign.

Once, the campaign starts you have to deal with the demographics of the voters out there. It would be nice to think that some great speech by our nominee will cause the other half of the country to say, "Wow, what was I thinking. I've been so wrong about this. Now, all those Dem campaign issues seem so relevant to me. I better start listening."

Unfortuantely, the lines are already drawn for the most part. A third of voters will love anything our guy says. A third will hate every word he says. And the last third don't want to hear someome lecturing them about the morality of war, and how they "should" see it.

They'll go with the candidate that makes them feel good and secure. Right and wrong has nothing do with it, unfortunately.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Should read, "Some Democratic bosses worry.."

"In Florida, some Democratic leaders say they're worried that nominating Howard Dean"

Of course they're worried. The see the Democratic Party being taken back by the people.

[msmcghee]

26. How fatuous.

They are worried because they see Democrats losing influence and credibility nationwide.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. "How naive"

They are worried about losing THEIR influence and credibility nationwide. They're terrified that the grass roots Democrats might take over the party and chuck them out.

[TopesJunkie]

32. It's all anti-Deanite all the time!

DU boards! 24 hours a day of anti-Deanitic furvor.

[lewiston]

36. It's to be expected...

let em bring it on. Oooops... did I say that.

[killbotfactory]

33. Nothin's stoppin' the Dean juggernaut

Not even Bush.

Stop being so f***ing afraid.

[guajira]

34. These Dems Should have been at FLA State Convention!

Dean was clearly the front-runner, with Clark 2nd.

Thousands of Florida delegates attended this convention, and one of the strangest moments was when Kerry was speaking at a luncheon which was being shown on big screens in an overflow room. Shouting from the hallway made people think Dean and/or Clark were arriving, and they got up and ran out of the room, right in the middle of Kerry's remarks!

What makes the DNC think a bush-lite candidate would be better than Dean, Clark or Kucinich?

Three more Americans killed in Iraq in past 2 days and 15 children killed by US Military in Afghanistan in past few days! America needs a major change!!

[Dr.Phool]

60. I was a delegate

to the Florida Convention, and I can honestly say that Howard Dean stole the show.

I was a Kucinich supporter until I started hearing about Dean, and after hearing him at the convention I'm planning to actively work for his campaign. In fact I'm going back to Orlando for Camp Wellstone training this week-end.

The only person shown less enthusiasm than Joe Lieberman was Senate candidate Alex Penellas. This after he said what a great job the Miami Police did during the FTAA protests.

Howard Dean can and will carry Florida.:kick:

[mrgorth]

40. F*** the war

If the war is that important for you, vote for Bush.

[flpoljunkie]

43. Hit a nerve, did we?

Dean's cynical use of the IWR to capture the anti-war, activist left makes me angry. And his use of Trippi's recycled, warmed over campaign slogans like, "You Have the Power!" leave me nauseous.

When I see Dean perform his stump speech, I think "infomercial". In a debate his lack of coherent and well thought out positions becomes all too apparent. Anger he has in spades, gravitas he lacks.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Kerry voted FOR IWR.

"Anger he has in spades, gravitas he lacks."

Kerry may appear to have "gravitas" but he's more than a little deficient in integrity as proven by his cynical vote to back Bush.

[blm]

47. Dean supported the same provision allowing Bush to use force

that Kerry supported in the IWR. Does that make Dean a warmonger? No. No more than IWR makes Kerry one.

[Scott Lee]

56. Wrong. Dean supported BidenLugar, which was different from IWR

And you already know this.

[blm]

59. Slightly different bills, but BOTH allowed Bush final determination

on use of force and THAT, my dear, is the provision that is the KEY issue to Dean's attacks on the others.

Can you argue that Biden-Lugar did NOT allow Bush to determine use of force? or that Dean didn't understand the bill?

[Scott Lee]

65. Big difference in the bills - go read the ACLU take on it.

Neither bill secured Iraq against attack, but at least BidenLugar raised the bar and demanded more certified proof of an immenent threat. Kerry passed on that and went with the safe "patriotic" vote.

And that's what he's going to wear all the way to the end of his failing race.

[mrgorth]

46. No

I simply think the war is so absurdly bad for the country that I'm willing to jettison anyone blind enough to still think it was a good idea and want a pro war candidate. You know what I think of Kerry? I think he's great. I'll give Kerry my money and my work if he wins the nom but then I'm not bitter. Marcia! Marcia! Marcia!

[Scott Lee]

58. Oh my. Handwringing alarums from the FLA Dem bosses.

Maybe the fearless leaders down in Florida can do an analysis of the polls that show Americans in general having a FALLING support of the war, not a gaining one.

HINT: That squiggly line moving gradually down means decreasing support.

[Scott Lee]

57. Well then maybe your boy can explain how it's done, right?

I mean he is running at the top with the most support and fundraising and...


Oops, wait. Sorry, Kerry's way behind Dean. My bad.

[bobbyboucher]

55. I know plenty of Floridian Dems,

some pretty damn active, and most don't know much about Dean, so they aren't worried to say the least. Their minds are open.

Floridians will LOVE DEAN.

[Dr.Phool]

62. building support

I don't know where these guys were last week-end, but Dean stole the show at the convention. In the past few months I've been involved in Dean meet-ups support has been growing.

We've had a few "flash mobs" for Dean, standing on street corners, waving signs and banners, and the overall reaction from the public has been fantastic.

I think if we ran a gecko against Bush in November we'd win.:kick:

[guajira]

69. Hi RRRick51, I Didn't See You There! LOL

Did you notice how the State bigwigs were trying to shove Graham as VP onto every candidate? They even asked Kerry and Gephardt outright if they would pick Graham. Both said he would be capable, what else could they say??

Also on the program was a video about a soldier who had died in Iraq. Instead of making it sound like a bad thing, the video glorified the Iraqi "war". It got bad "reviews" from some of us for being hypocritical and pro-war.

Then Dean, Clark, Kucinich drew great cheers and applause for criticizing our involvement in Iraq! It seemed like there were 2 Dem groups there, the candidates and the FL Dem Party leaders!

[Dr.Phool]

70. Maddox

sold us out to the DNC by not letting us haave a straw poll.

In my opinion, and many others, Dean took the show. I saw everyone except Gephardt (I was sick Sat. morning) I'm heading back to Orlando tomorrow to attend Camp Wellstone, a 3 day grassroots organizing program conducted by Paul Wellstones people. It should be good. It's also at Coronado, so if you know anyone who's interested have the contact Wellstone action. We're gonna have a hell of a fight this year.