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[Selwynn]

1. ...or... not...

[jpgray]

2. Blood in the water syndrome

Or a pecking party--the Republicans can throw some blood out there among us and off we go. :) There is more vitriol on average poured on Kerry than on Bush, some of the time. But that's largely because he was a major candidate who is fading--people want to exult over his defeat.

edit: some Clark/Kerry/whoever fans would be rubbing it in on Dean as well, I'm sure, if the situations were reversed

[KoKo]

3. Good Grief! "Ravaging?" Isn't that a little harsh? And, "disdain and

disrespect?" I haven't seen that here or out there, but have not ready every single article about Kerry looking for that.

I think he's very respected, but he has been disappointing to many who had such high hopes for him. He should have been the perfect candidate for us. That he hasn't been able to get out in front causes some of his supporters to be frustrated, which is understandable.

[Name removed]

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[joeybee12]

13. I wouldn't call this from across the spectrum

Kaus is an idiot.

[virtualobserver]

15. and hardly a Democrat ....

or a liberal.

[Closer]

4. Quite honestly

I think what most people are "ravaging" is how his campaign has been run, not the man himself. It was his to lose, and his campaign just floundered.

As I've said here many times before, I have MUCH respect for Kerry the Senator (with big exception to his War vote) but I think he's just run an ineffective campaign. He just didn't connect with the base.

So I agree, he, the man, shouldn't be 'ravaged.' But his campaign, well, it's open for criticism.

[joeybee12]

5. What are you specifically referring to?

The post with large chunks of Eric Alterman's blog? I don't think the article is bashing Kerry--I think he's pointing out a real problem with Kerry's candidacy right now. Besides, it's clear that Eric likes Kerry.

[Name removed]

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[Hep]

21. His campaign hit rock bottom

when he likened me to sonny corleone.

[Padraig18]

56. That happens to Dean all the time.

I agree it may be disgraceful, but no less disgraceful than what people gleefully do to Dean every damned day here in GD, and P&C.

[PurityOfEssence]

116. The idea of Dean playing the victim is laughable

He is the one who started and has most vigorously sustained the nasty derision of his opponents. He is the one to dismiss much of the elected members of the Party as toadying Bush-lite cowards. He is the one who has smeared with deliberate disinformation on votes for tax cuts and speaking about race in front of white audiences, and has squealed like the proverbial stuck pig whenever confronted by it.

His display of not even admitting this to Kucinich in the face of prima facie evidence was nauseating.

Dean has gotten better, but far too many of his supporters are exactly like religious zealots: he's allowed to skate on any mistake, and it's vicious heresy to ever attack him.

This contention of yours is silly.

[joeybee12]

68. I think a lot of it was just posting what is in the "mainstream media"

about Kerry. To say that his campaign ISN'T in trouble, really isn't true. That's the media line du jour, and they ain't gonna let go of it any time soon!

[Hep]

6. While I wish I agreed

He crossed the line when he made unfair comments about me. HE's never met me, so why would he talk shit?

[Cocoa]

7. he's also got class

I'm convinced his decision to lay off Dean at the start of his campaign, against the advice of some of his advisors, and against the pleading from the press, contributed to his being behind.

But, that's the price that sometimes comes with doing the right thing. Winning isn't everything, it's how you play the game.

[Armstead]

8. A lot of it is disappointment

Kerry's my senator, and he's been a good representative of our state. And, you're right, many of his positions are ones liberals support.

But he dropped the ball. And many see that as pandering. I was so angry about his Iraq War vote. It wasn;t even the fact that he voted for it -- but he supported giving Bush a blank check, while trying to simultaneously be an opponent of Bush's rush to war.

At least Gephardt and Lieberman were consistent and clear. I disagreed with them, but I saw their vote as based on their real assessment of the situation, and honest belief.

But Iraq is not the only instance. It just seems that too often he trys to be both a safe centrist and a raging liberal. So I don;t know what he is.

And, unfortunately, he is no Paul Wellstone, who was a clear progressive liberal, and spoke clear truth to power and clearly fought against the Corporate Oligarchy.

[imhotep]

10. hahaha

I think you have it backwards.
Kerry disrespected the United States by trusting Bush while the rest of us knew better.
He is a disgrace, not us.

[regnaD kciN]

36. You've got that right...

I was a Kerry supporter until IWR. Enough said.

[Bonobo]

115. Right!

I'm from Mass. Who the hell was he representing when he voted for that chickenshit, pro-war vote. Let's not whitewash this issue. We had weapons inspectors doing a professional job in Iraq and that vote was turned the whole thing Dubya's way!

Never forget. Kerry took part in that wrongheaded decision and has not yet fully apologized for the error.

[RBHam]

11. Huh?

Kerry's been treated with kid gloves compared to the smears Dean has received. Mostly from Kerry himself and Kerry's buddy Holy Joe.

[JI7]

12. pete

whatever

[PROGRESSIVE1]

14. I agree with you 99%!

We should not attack John Kerry. A great Senator, HELL YES!!!!!!!!
The reason I said "99%" is that his IWR vote was WRONG. Otherwise he is a good man!

[sallyseven]

22. Kerry is a good man

I prefer him to anyone else. I will vote for him because I know what he stands for. I have been a democrat all my life. That is over 50 years. Lets be very careful who we pick. We need to win this election. Need to change the house and senate. We are doomed if we don't. bush is going to bankrupt this nation and sell us all to the corporate interests. Pay attention to what is going on in the health cares systems for an example. There will only be special insurances left. bush is trash and needs to lose next year. Vote your choice but don't bash other candidates. When it is over we all have to fight bush and beat his butt.

[durutti]

16. I agree... but one problem.

I will probably vote for Kerry in the primary. Of Democrats who have a chance (i.e., not Sharpton, Kucinich, or Moseley Braun), he has the best program.

My only problem with Kerry is one of electability. I think that the Democratic nominee will have to be a Southerner to beat Bush.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Kerry brought it on himself with his cowardly vote.

Is that "ravaging"? He voted to have people killed to advance his political career. THAT is "shameful" and "disgraces" all Democrats. Not to mention humanity. I have no sympathy for him.

[Monte Carlo]

41. Combat veterans are never eager to leap back into the fray.

I cannot believe that Kerry made such a vote to further his political career when that could have meant the deaths of many civilians and soldiers. All I can say is that one cannot condense 6 months of national fervor leading up to the war down to a vote in Congress

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

61. He seemed able to "condense it" into one vote.

As for combat veterans not being eager to leap back into the fray, I had a friend who was a door gunner on a Huey who volunteered to go back to Vietnam 3 times. Becuase he was some sort of hyper-patriot? No. He liked war. He changed after being wounded. Not to say that Kerry is of that stripe, but as a vet, I can say that the military has plenty of pyschopaths in it who enjoy shooting off guns, dropping bombs on people, and all the other forms of dementia that they obscure with flag waving.

As for Kerry, I refuse to believe that he was unaware that the war was instigated to benefit Bush as a sign that he was a "decisive" leader ready to satisfy the lust for vengeance after 9/11. 23 other senators had the courage to vote against the tide of public feeling at risk of their office. Kerry didn't.

[Monte Carlo]

67. Kerry had to, he's a Senator.

And he had to give a yes/no vote, so that's just a non-sequiter.

Hey, combat can drive a lot of people crazy. I've seen it too. But Kerry really, really doesn't strike me as either stupid tough or crazy brave, and I don't think he strikes you that way, either.

As for the tide of public feeling and the risk to office... all I can say is that Kerry was surely aware of the backlash of a 'yes' vote. He is a liberal Democrat from the People's Republic of Massachusetts, after all, that he would not be expected to vote 'yes'. I don't see how he chose 'yes' for political gain.

And I'm certain that Kerry was aware of Bush's political motivations for war. But I'm also certain that he was aware of other things, such as the fact that you really can't be too hard on Saddam Hussein, whether he had weapons or not.

[dsc]

19. I heartedly agree

I do not see why we give the lying liars out there free reign here by quoting them. I have seen oodles of negative pieces on every candidate and I don't post them. I know that the writers are anti Democratic and just worthless.

[KaraokeKarlton]

20. Before you single out Dean supporters

regarding any disrespect towards Kerry, you should be speaking to your fellow Kerry supporters about their disrespect of not only Howard Dean, but his supporters. Do you honestly expect Dean supporters such as myself to show any kind of respect for John Kerry when his supporters on this site imply that we are idiots who don't research candidates before supporting them and are essentially cult members?

John Kerry has made a lot of mistakes and he hasn't shown the ability to overcome those mistakes. Not only that, but he refuses to own those mistakes. Many people are disappointed in him for that reason. This is where some of the disdain is coming from. Much more of the disdain comes from Kerry's obsession with using what time he is given to attack Dean instead of talk about why people should vote for him. He doesn't take advantage of the opportunities that present themselve to him. That's his own fault and as long as Kerry and his supporters continue to blame everyone else for his faltering campaign it's only going to continue to falter.

[Name removed]

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[KaraokeKarlton]

50. Go back and read your first post

You specifically named Dean supporters. You didn't name the supporters of any other candidate.

Some Dean supporters are very hard on Kerry. I certainly am. Most of that comes from me being sick of reading certain Kerry supporters posting outright lies about my candidate and my state. I can't call a lie a lie, so my only recourse is to criticize what I dislike about their candidate of choice. I have no interest in bringing down Kerry, but I DO have an interest in defending MY chosen candidate from the attempts by the Kerry campaign and some of Kerry's supporters to bring down MY candidate. It's purely defensive posturing and as long as Kerry supporters and the Kerry campaign choose to focus on attacking my candidate rather than building up their own, it's quite likely some supporters of the targetted candidate will react as you are seeing and not liking.

Frankly, Dean supporters would much rather discuss what they like about our candidate. Some supporters of other candidates make it a point to try to piss in our cheerios every chance they get. You piss in my cheerios and I'm liable to dump them over your head. Basically, you get what you give and as long as some choose to give what they do they are just going to get it flung back at them.

[adadem]

122. Right on

Dean tried to take down Kerry while the Senator was recovering from surgery. I'm not a fighter but I will stand up when someone of merit gets ruthlessly attacked and that is one reason I have come to despise, yes despise, Dean. Never have I sat out an election but I refuse to cast a vote for Dean and his NRA buddies.

[ibegurpard]

24. I take no particular pleasure in Kerry's campaign woes

but I agree with everything you've said here.

[blm]

27. Here's your own post

KaraokeKarlton (1000+ posts) Thu Oct-09-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. I'm not unravelling

I'm simply sharing my view that Kerry is basically nothing but a festering, oozing shit polyp.
____________________________________________________________


The pride and the joy you must feel.

[sistersofmercy]

62. Hey blm,

It's only candidate bashing if it's critique of their candidate. Furthermore, their candidate EVOLVES but Kerry flip-flops! How they figure this I have no idea.

[dsc]

72. that is disgraceful

but you just today claimed Ivins said Bush was harmless and still, hours later, no citation. It is one thing to trash a candidate and quite another to trash people like Ivins.

[blm]

92. I didn't trash Ivins at all.

I just don't think her instincts are perfect and SHE did write a column when Bush took office saying basically - don't worry, he's harmless.

[flpoljunkie]

112. Hi, blm. Am deeply disappointed in Ivins. Remember she voted for Nader.

For me, that is is the sign of a Democratic with their head up their ass. Altho she did say that she would not recommend that anyone vote for Nader in a state where the vote was close......say, FLORIDA!

Did you read Nicholas Kristof today in the New York Times? The title of his column says it all, "There They go Again"... nominating a Democrat who cannot beat George Bush--namely Howard Brush Dean III.

[Hep]

113. Odd that all this is coming out NOW!

n/t

[sendero]

151. I don't know about "harmless"....

... but she DID say "he's not stupid and he's not mean".

I love Ms. Ivins but I'm not sure I agree with her on this one. Based on his policies he's got to be one or the other.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Ditto

Dean took a lot of Kerry's potential supporters by relentlessly attacking the Bush regime while the Democratic leaders in Congress were more interested in appeasement and accommodation than in acting as an opposition party.

Kerry will never get those voters back.

Clark took another big chunk of Kerry's potentials supporters by providing them with a viable alternative to Dean that would not waffle on the issues of peace and war as Kerry had done. Clark also has more medals, and a more extensive record of heroism and military accomplishments than Kerry.

Clark also has a rare quality not seen in America since the days when General George Marshall served under the Roosevelt and Truman Administrations: a classic intellectual, true patriot and humanitarian that puts country above his own personal and political considerations.

Kerry will never get those voters back.


George C. Marshall

[sujan]

43. clark has more medals than Kerry

True.

Other than that, I dont think he has anything.

Kerry would make an excellent president.

[IndianaGreen]

82. Clark has the potential of becoming another George Marshall

one of the greatest Americans of all time, and Presidents Roosevelt and Truman's most trusted advisor.

It was Marshall that planned and coordinated the Normandy invasion, but FDR could not afford to lose Marshall and let him become the Supreme Commander of the invasion, so Eisenhower was tapped (by Marshall) to lead the D-Day invasion, and on to fame and the White House.

[thehonesttruth]

25. wake up, pete

kerry is a follower, he voted for war(following bush), then voted againest aid for re-building iraq and the supporting troops (following dean or worst, kucinich). the people of america deserve a leader, and they will elect one.

[Name removed]

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[GalleryGod]

30. I Stood With Him at Operation Dewey Canyon III, April,1971.

and I ain't quittin' the guy until he tells me to "Stand down,Troop".

Kerry & Clark
Real World. Real Danger. Demands REAL MEN:pals:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. "Gentle People

sleep well at night because rough men are ready to do violence on their behalf."

-George Orwell (no freeper)


Also, I like Kerry... Unfortunately he has been "Muskieified"... Edmund Muskie was the front runner in 1972 whose campaign self destructed in the snows of New Hampshire... An insurgent Democrat went on to win the nomination and lose the most lopsided general election campaign in the history of the republic....

Whatever, the trashing of John Kerry is pathetic...

[sistersofmercy]

69. Excellent post!

I love Orwell's essay's, brilliant man! Thanks for the insightful post.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

119. Thanks for that post

and thanks for your service to your country.

[thehonesttruth]

47. sorry ass retort

check out the rnc rag the new york times for kerry's voting record.

[Name removed]

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[thehonesttruth]

60. my father really threw his purple heart on nixon's lawn.

and your personal attack is no substitute for logical agruement. please give some facts, not your feelings and mindless retorts. maybe some du members will help me with the idea that 53 well reasoned posts are better than 1000's of insults. i love you.

[THUNDER HANDS]

31. Good job Pete

I agree with you 100%

[pistoff democrat]

32. Whoa, there!

Did you just read a critical article or something?

All the candidates are getting bashed now; it's called P O L I T I C S.

Simmer down.

[Name removed]

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[JNelson6563]

33. The ravaging of all Dems is disgraceful

You'll find no smears from me on any candidate because I think it is counterproductive. I do not feel John Kerry has gotten any worse treatment than anybody else. If it weren't for his vote in the IWR he'd be in a different situation.

I say all the hateful smear efforts stop between camps. Civil and productive dialogue is what we all should strive to achieve. In the end, when unity is required, we will fare better if we have not alienated each other irreparably.

Julie

Julie

[Renew Deal]

34. Pete

I am not sure what to say. I don't know how bad it is overall. I didn't think it was to bad here. I was watching a woman from NH last night. It was a videocast of her radio show. She was literally shocked that Kerry might not get #2 in NH. One of our fellow DUers said it best. It is the blood in the water syndrome. People now see Kerry as a sinking ship. Some of the Deaniacs might think this is a good thing for them. It's not. Those votes are not going to Dean. I have to tell you, I will be happy if 3-4 candidates drop out tomorrow. I haven't thought that Kerry should be one of them. But I am also not going to rub it in. All I can tell you is that the primaries suck. Now more than ever. Just stay focused on the goal which is beating Bush. Even if Kerry fades, there is plenty of work to do.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

35. I'm confused

Are you saying that it's ok to ravage other candidates, but not Kerry?

All of our candidates deserve equal respect. They have each served our country honorably in their own way.

[Name removed]

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[Cooley Hurd]

37. I didn't have much of a problem with him until...

...he said that he'd include James "Attorney for the House of Saud" Baker on a short list of people he would consider for a diplomatic position. That he would suggest such a thing tells me that he doesn't "get it."

[phirili]

38. It is a great shame. PeteNYC I cannot agree with you more. My DU family

need to be more objective. We have an opportunity to select a great candidate in John Kerry, and many of our democratic brothers and sisters join the Repuks in in ravaging him.

[Terwilliger]

39. That's the problem

not everybody thinks he's a great candidate, and the only person really responsible for the public perception of John Kerry is....none other than John Kerry. He's swimming in the soup he made.

[Monte Carlo]

44. Well Kerry is a great candidate.

And campaign troubles shouldn't overtake the fact that he is. This whole thing isn't over yet.

[Terwilliger]

48. he's polling at an insignificant amount

now, if you want to say that Kucinich has just as much chance as Kerry, that's fine. To me, and most anybody else looking at the situation from a distance, see this Democrat who is hard-pressed to generate a lot of support. Maybe something will happen to Dean or Clark over the course of the campaign, I don't know, but potential Kerry voters are not manning his candidacy with their support.

[OneBlueSky]

63. no . . . Kerry is a great senator . . .

and has the potential to be a great president . . . but he's a lousy candidate . . . and therein lies the problem . . . Kerry was my first choice and still may be, but watching how his campaign has progressed (or, more accurately, regressed) gives me faint hope that he could win in the general election . . . yeah, I have some problems with him, but I have some problems with all of the candidates . . . I want whichever one can beat Bush, and Kerry is proving every day that he's not likely that person . . . too bad . . . the potential for greatness is there, but it's being squandered . . .

[Monte Carlo]

71. Kerry has had problem, but have you seen him lately?

Ever since he dumped Jim Jordan as campaign manager and brought on Mary Beth Cahill, he's been hitting point after point after point.

Hey, Kerry has slumped in the polls recently, but only one poll really matters in this primary race, and that is in March.

[Renew Deal]

42. Everyone's been ravaged

except CMB. I am not sure the pukes have had anything to do with it. One thing I didn't think of, the James Baker thing was the first problem for Kerry this week. Then the poll numbers came. So I am not sure it is all lack of objectivity. James Baker was bad and the poll numbers worse. It doesn't matter who you support, it's trouble.

[Scott Lee]

52. Dissemblence of the hypocrites. This is high humor!

One of the most humorous parts of my day is to log on to DU and see the very perpetrators of the slimeball tactics and negative smears, a tiny grouping of very nasty, determined and vocal individuals, have the nerve to cry about Kerry being "ravaged" by other democrats.

Here's a thought. Did all this coming down on Kerry's head have anything to do with the FACT that this little supercell of systemic smear has gone on the attack against Dean practically from day one? Have many of you noticed that this little group has spent about 10% of their energies building up Kerry or Clark, and 90% hating and defaming Dean? Have many of you noticed that many of us Dean supporters decided to start fighting back against the stupid attacks, and now we get handwringing from our systemic attackers?

It certainly has not gone without notice. Let me give you haters a little advice. Don't define yourselves by who you are against. Don't cry when we decide to throw your mud back in your faces. If you want goodwill toward you candidate, show some toward the others.

There is a very simple and timely natural law that says you get what you give.

[ibegurpard]

58. To be fair

Pete has been pretty even-handed and I wouldn't apply what you said to him. There are several others, though, that are more than deserving of your criticism.

[Name removed]

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[sistersofmercy]

65. Nice try, but why don't you inject some truth in your thought process

rather than basing it on defensive speculation. I defend Kerry but have never attacked Dean, never! I do take issue with Dean supporters who continually bash the other candidates.

[Cha]

77. Scott has never been anything But

Truthful and he says it so eloquently.

[sistersofmercy]

83. Truth being subjective, right? Eloquence?

I would think dogmatic more appropriate.

[Scott Lee]

87. A dogmatic Dean supporter? There's an oxymoron for you.

Seeing that Dean elicits an anti-party dogma response in most of his supporters, I think your insinuation is pretty comical.

If you want dogma, check out the hate clutch. They not have the dogma down, they have learned well the Goebellsian tactic of repeating the big lie in faithfully regurgitated memes.

[sistersofmercy]

91. I assume your misspelling is...

suppose to be "Goebbelsian tactic" which I find quite offensive and you just proved my point!

[Scott Lee]

98. No, it was quite accurate. AntiDeans have learned Goebells well

and they repeat it with every drum droning meme stream of bullshit they vomit.

Carry on!

[sistersofmercy]

102. Your Coulteresque attack of fellow Dems is a disgrace! n/t

[Scott Lee]

106. Yeah but I have better legs. Nyaa.

[sistersofmercy]

109. OK

That was funny! But honestly I feel you attack your fellow Dems a bit unfairly. There is no need to make the attack personal. I have personally stuck up for Dean on occasion, for example, when others were criticizing his "I'll unseal mine if he unseals his" retort, I found the remark hilariously audacious and a way to spoon feed the GOP some of their own. I further stated that I believe Dean will unseal his records, so it's a nonissue to me.

[mitchum]

120. you need to get out more, zidzi

[Scott Lee]

86. Perhaps you haven't been reading the threads on DU lately?

What you call "defensive speculation" is borne out by truth if you but peruse the threads on DU regarding Dean. Maybe we have been reading two different Democratic Underground sites?

Try that little experiment, search the archives and look at the threads. You will find this little hate clutch popping up on all of them, at different frequencies.

So before you go accusing someone of lying or fantasizing, perhaps you'd better make sure your Nike is not in your own mouth first, hmm?

[sistersofmercy]

89. Twist away, mon ami, but critique and hate are not the same!

[Scott Lee]

99. But aimless hate and aimless hate are the same.

You can identify it by the near lack of positive said for any of their respective choice for president. 10% support, 90% denounce - that is the mix in their arguments. I'm sure you can see what type of person does this.

[sistersofmercy]

104. I think you should apply your criticism to yourself. n/t

[Scott Lee]

107. Are you slithering away from acknowledging the antiDean hate?

Get on back here and face the issue. That issue would be that the antiDean frothers are well known for all they are against, and little what they are for. The reason you see some blacklash against attackers is obvious. Happens in nature.

[sistersofmercy]

110. I have only seen the issues addressed but I have not seen

anyone attack or bash Dean, needlessly or on a personal level for that matter.

[Scott Lee]

130. Then your eyes have been closed.

I recommend going back through some of the threads that lead up to this. No one who has actually been watching the on going back and forth can truthfully say there has been no Dean bashing going on at DU. That is the height of ostrichism.

[sistersofmercy]

135. Bet you thought you were going to get the last word, didn't you?

Again critique is not bashing. What I have seen is an all out war between Dean and Clark supporters.

[Scott Lee]

146. No!.....oops.....

Correction, you're seeing a ridiculous nasty spirited tet a tet between SOME supporters of both men. What I find laughable is that some think the Dean supporters started all this nonsense - when in all honesty I have seen no one so beleagured on this board than Howard Dean.

As a matter of fact, that right there helped steer me to Dean. I hate it when people pile on, driven by a bunch of lies and old stories.

[sistersofmercy]

159. Oh....

you really are a stinker!:P There may be a few Kerry supporters who bash Dean but to assume the majority do is just incorrect. You've certainly done your share of bashing Kerry. BTW Congratulations on the Gore endorsement of Dean! Now go gloat, you have every right.

[adadem]

123. Here's why

FACT that this little supercell of systemic smear -

Kerry has done much more for our country than any of the other candidates in the long run...he does not deserve your remark above...and you wonder why many have come to despise Dean.

[sistersofmercy]

129. Great response! n/t

[sendero]

152. Yeah but..

... what has he done for us lately?

I don't want to bash but it seems to me that the electorate could care less about his 30 year record. That is not what makes a man president. If it was, Bush* would have never survived the primaries.

Kerry just doesn't have the new ideas and he doesn't have the fire. Yes, that is merely my opinion but I contend that the polls reflect it is a widely held opinion.

The truth is, just like an employer - I'm a lot more interested in what a candidate is going to do tomorrow than what he has done. Kerry erased a commanding lead and a great deal of respect and admiration with one vote. That's how life is, you are faithful to your wife/husband for 30 years and cheat once and you are in the sh*thouse.

Go figure.

[Bandit]

40. I have never ravaged Senator Kerry or any Democratic Candidate

However he has said a few things lately that have dissappointed me. I think it was an affront to say he would select James Baker to be part of his administration. I also was a little put off by his "Get Over It" comment. He does have all the qualifications IMHO to Whoop Ass on Bush* and he has some great ideas. I could forgive him his IWR vote and his Patriot Act vote but not choosing Baker. I found that highly offensive. It showed him to be so much of an insider that he cared not about our sensibilities. It was a major blunder IMO and probably lost him my support. I will vote for him if he gets the nomination but I think he just lost himself that chance. just my $.02 worth.

[phirili]

70. Typical Kerry bashing; find a non-issue and flag it as an issue re: Baker

James Baker was a great Secretary of State by any standards. James Baker performance as an attorney for Bush was as good as it gets. It was a pity Gore didn't have someone with Baker's skill as his attorney for the Florida debacle.

[Scott Lee]

85. Supporting an antisemitic warmonger is a "non issue"?

Holy Guacamole. That's one of the most disgusting apologist acts for a candidate I've ever heard.

[DrFunkenstein]

125. Apparently, Dean's Backroom Deals With Sharon Are The Non-Issue

Whatever.

[Scott Lee]

131. And this has WHAT to do with Kerry supporting an antisemite?

Allow me to pull you back to center. Please try to stay on topic and explain to us why Kerry has supported a warmongering antisemite.

[Bandit]

158. Non issue to you only

Jim Baker was not Bush*'s Attorney. That was Ted Olsen. Baker was his mouth piece for the Media. Remember "I Trust the People" Well Baker was the one to say they don't trust the people and that only machines are trustworthy. If that is the kind of person you swoon over than you are in the wrong place. We like Democrats and honesty here. Senator Kerry is a fine Democrat. He has made some pretty big blunders lately. I guess you don't care or else just want to bitch at someone. Whatever! Just try and get your facts straight so you don't appear to big a fool.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. I've given up hope of Kerry being treated fairly

I don't bash candidates although I do question from time to time. I didn't like Kerry's war vote but disagree with Armstead that Lieberman's and Gephardt's decisions were more principled. I don't CARE if someone is consistent but wrong, and their deliberate undermining of those in their party that were attempting to foster a more airtight agreement was single minded.


Kerry does have the BEST record on the things that seem to matter MOST to Du'ers whether it is labor rights, environmental issues, women's issues or other traditional Democratic values.

I have felt at times like he didn't seem to WANT the presidency that bad, based on his campaign direction, but I chalk that up to the crazy times we live in combined with the fact that he does need to reconcile a couple of his positions...IWR, the Patriot act and the fact that he took what would have in the past been considered a more "statesmanlike" position in dealing with the Bush administration rather than using RAW rhetoric to attack.


I'm also a bit amused that he is absolutely SLAMMED for invoking James Baker's name in the mid east conflict by those who say BRING BACK OUR TROOPS. The irony of that is that NO MATTER how slippery Baker is as a BUSH family "consigliere," he does have the power and ability to assist in restructuring Iraq's debt, thereby increasing aid, reducing future pain for the Iraqi people, removing ALL the assessments from nuts the likes of Perle and at least MAKING some of our allies feel less like the patients are in charge of the sanitarium.

Democrats CAN make strategic use of Republicans the same way Republicans make STRATEGIC use of Democrats.

Tell that to anyone on this board and it is a sign that they belong to some secret clandestine cabal.

As far as I am concerned, based on damn near EVERYTHING he has done as a senator with few exceptions, if there IS some secret clandestine cabal out to get us all :scared: I WANT him on the inside knowing what they are up to. For the most part, he really can't be considered as giving them what they want.

[salin]

46. Sadly... disparaging dems has become a national pasttime

almost reaching to the level of obsession.

It is done in a unique way to each candidate. Abject marginalization (as keeps being done to Kucinich, who I think is even closer to Wellstone in many ways.. by a nose.) Trumped up malicious stories that get passed around at first as a quiet bzzzz (since it is so malicious at first no one gives it credence)... but as it gets repeated it becomes 'accepted' (more due to the number of times it quietly goes around rather than due it actually gaining ANY credence.) Ridicule (just before Gore announced no run... the commentators went on and on and on about his not wearing his wedding ring... because he had gained weight *gasp*) which was transferred immediately from Gore to Kerry (Kerry's early days in the race... speaks... and the commentators focus on... his Hair? that he looks "French"?)

The extra sad thing is that the broader dem community picks up on these things and repeats it - be it journalists/columnists; bloggers and/or Duers. We keep the negative tone alive. And by doing so - it is used by the right to 'demonstrate legitimacy' to the attack (as in... even the democrats say this...)

[paulk]

49. We Democrats hold our candidates to a higher standard

and when they fail us, we want to punish them.

That's why the Republicans can get idiots like Bush and Reagan elected - they vote for the party, not their ego.

[SahaleArm]

59. Sad truth - we do this to sitting Democratic presidents

Of the last four presidents, only Clinton was savaged by the left, right, and the media. All the others were given a free pass as they led America down the toilet bowl.

[sistersofmercy]

73. It's true!

We seek those who represent our ideal selves that even we couldn't measure up to.

[DemCam]

51. I'm listening to him now.

I want to like John Kerry. He looks great...he's got experience.

But I can't stand to listen to him...just bores the bejeezus out of me. But I certainly don't ravage him.

I think the "ravaging" is coming from zealous supporters of other candidates who want about 4 of these guys out of the race.

I know how you feel, though. I get my feelings hurt when people do acid-drip posts on Wes's threads, too. I'll be glad when this primary is over.

[JackSwift]

53. I've kept pretty quiet about Kerry

This is the first time I've mentioned in any public or semi-public place how disappointed I am that he voted for the Iraq war without seeing the evidence. I have no enthusiasm for Edwards, Kerry, or Gephardt for that reason. Lieberman I actively dislike because he is such a putz.

[lostnfound]

54. Pardon me, but Dennis Kucinich gets the Wellstone spot first. n/t

[Deja Q]

81. I second that

The idea that ANY of the major candidates comes even close to being like Wellstone is an outright insult him, and to us.

[TeeYiYi]

103. I'll third that . . .

Kerry as Wellstone? . . . NOT.

DK would be a more likely comparison.

TYY

[Eloriel]

55. It couldn't be because

he has earned that disdain and disrespect, could it?

I'm sorry, Pete. I know that from the very bottom of your heart you support John Kerry. I've seen you do logical and rhetorical gymnastics trying to support him here -- and those little excapades have done you (or kerry) no good. But you're entitled to support whoever you want to.

But refusing to see Kerry's mistakes or failings and blaming his woes on anything BUT the candidate himself takes it a little far, IMO.

I won't enumerate my problems with Kerry, they're not important. But I will tell you that your attempts to sway me, this one in particular, does more harm than good. It makes him look even weaker, actually.

Eloriel

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

93. Yet Dean's failings and weaknesses are loathsome to many

and lovable to you. Go figure. Some of us are attracted to brilliant men. Others attracted to 'bad boys' with secrets.

[sistersofmercy]

95. Hey blm,

check out reply 87, am I reading it wrong or was that the most insulting accusation applied to fellow Dems?

[KoKo]

100. blm, "bad boys with secrets?" Who the heck is that?

?????? I still say Kerry could have had us as any easy coast if he'd even voted yes on one of the Amencments to IWR and not been so waffley ever since trying to backtrack over that vote. I'm sorry about it. I thought he would turn out better than he did with that wonderful Environmental speech he have over a year ago. He was my man until....the VOTE. Since then it's been downhill for him in my mind, much as I hoped for the best.

[Scott Lee]

101. Yes, to all 12 of the antiDean knitting clutch.

I'm sure Dean is thinking of throwing in the towel in response to this devistating news.

[TankLV]

57. Opps! - I thought you wrote the "Ravings" of John Kerry....."

Wrong thread.

Continue.

Bash amongst yourselves.

I feel so ferklempt.

[jiacinto]

66. I respsect Kerry

I really do. But it's clear that his campaign is faltering. He is not getting traction. And that is unfortunate because I do respect him.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

74. Don't you even worry.

Kerry will be VP.
Clark/Kerry will be the ticket--that's my educated, honest guess.

[Deja Q]

80. I can think of a candidate who is more like Wellstone than f-word Kerry...

Kucinich seems to be far more Wellstonian than Kerry.

As for f-word Kerry, I mean Kerry said the F-word in publc describing Bush. Can't blame him, but that seems to be far more disgraceful than people ravaging him. I don't mean "f-word kerry" as in "fuckin' Kerry... :grr: " so don't get any clever ideas.

[annagull]

117. Disgraceful to compare Kerry to Wellstone

Wellstone, you may remember, voted against the IWR. He thought it would cost him the election, but he could not go against his principles. If only John Kerry had shown the same bravery and stuck to his principles. alas he was struck dumb by the DNC conventional wisdom gurus and made the biggest mistake of his career.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sistersofmercy]

127. Right on!

[Scott Lee]

133. Kerry the "progressive" - pro IWR, pro Patriot Act?

Now, either the Progressives have massively overhauled their ideological planks, or somebody is no progressive.

[annagull]

136. That "one vote" may cost him the presidency

I like John Kerry, but that one vote showed a lack of his own principles. This war had Vietnam written all over it, many of us here at DU saw this coming a mile away. John Kerry, who should have known better than anybody what a huge mistake this was, voted to give Bush his war. Paul Wellstone knew, we knew, why didn't Kerry know?

[Cheswick2.0]

84. He is losing it all on his own

I am starting to feel sorry for the guy. He voted for IRW, he told us to "get over" 2000, he said he would appoint Baker to a post in his administration. He said he wouldn't have gone to florida in 2000 during the recount even if he had been asked.
He is screwing himself.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. I Will Never Get Over 2000

but what are we supposed to do about it now besides ensuring it never happens again?

[Terwilliger]

94. and what have Democrats done to assure people that it doesn't happen again

anything? anything substantive, or just a lot of talk?

[DrFunkenstein]

126. Where Did He Say That?

I find it hard to believe that Kerry said he wouldn't go to Florida when he was one of Gore's strongest supporters - and even shortlisted as VP. If Gore had gone with a progressive fighter like Kerry instead of Holy Joe, Nader would have been a blip.

[Scott Lee]

90. I'll bet Kerry would be disgusted with some of his "supporters" here

and their discussion habits. The Kerry supporters in the hate clutch are doing no small amount of damage to their own candidate and I wouldn't imagine that John Kerry appreciates it.

[adadem]

121. Because

The Deanibots have put supporters of other candidates on the defensive with their robotic chants and challenges. Of late I support all candidates except Dean. That I made a early donation to his campaign makes me want to scream...what was I thinking. I didn't have all the facts...that's what.

[sistersofmercy]

124. I'll second that!

Furthermore, who is he to say what would offend Kerry?

[Scott Lee]

132. That broad brush of yours needs some more paint...

This is a recurring theme with the antiDeans, but no one has ever backed it up with facts or cites of any kind. Not surprising, as it's easier smear an entire group with one ridiculous, unproven accusation than to deal with factual specifics.

What color you want, red or black?

[sistersofmercy]

139. You really are a ...

stinker! :evilgrin: Pot callin' the kettle black? "antiDeans?" :eyes:

[Ksec]

96. Trivia

Kerry is one of a very few that has never taken a nickel from the Pharm industry, and yes I agree Kerry is the best pick candidate that has gotten NO respect. Hes a mystery . How can a guy with so much going for him get such pathetic-ly low numbers?

[phirili]

111. Rove has his fat hand in the low numbers

[Jacobin]

97. Hate to break this to you. He's ravaging himself

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

108. No disrespect from me

Kerry is a good candidate and would be a good choice for the nomination.

[robbedvoter]

114. kerry used to be a great guy. Now, he wants Baker, says s* like:

kerry said this on his floundering campaign:
"We got crowded out by the other events," he said. "Very simple.
Crowded out by first the Internet and Dean and the war, and then
crowded out by Arnold Schwarzenegger, and then crowded out by the new
face on the block . Now's the time for people to focus and say
who can be president."

[sistersofmercy]

128. I couldn't agree more, PeteNYC!

The unrelenting contempt towards Kerry as well as his supporters is quite unsettling.

[Scott Lee]

134. This thread is Passive Aggressive bullshit

Trying to garner Kerry supporters with "shame". How utterly pathetic.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

142. I demand you fly this thread to Cuba!

Seriously, Pete, the jig is up. I've watched some of your threads and at first I thought you really were someone trying to find some harmony amongst us in picking the Dem nominee. You tipped your hand with this thread. It is nothing but a passive aggressive pity screed to sneak up some Kerry support.

You're selling, but I aint buyin'.

[realFedUp]

138. Thanks

for saying that...agree.

I'm not loving the dispersions cast on Dean or
Dean supporters. And I had thought better of some
in here who are starting these threads.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adadem]

141. If not here to ravage

and rip apart John Kerry then what are all you Deaniacs and Deanibots doing here in this thread. Admit it...no other reason than to attack, spin, slam and spread hate toward a courageous veteran who has devoted years to public service and to standing up for Democratic values.

[Scott Lee]

147. Careful - calling us names empowers us ;)

Shame. I thought you'd have figured that out by now.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

143. and Kerry uses an expletive and he's accused of pandering and 'fake'

he just can't win with some people. The disgust is compounded for me this afternoon.

[Isome]

144. Agreed. Who cares if he cussed...

As someone who does so often, it's not a crime!! In times like these, a little cussing helps lessen the stress.

[Scott Lee]

148. Hey I commended him for dropping the F bomb

And I'll do it again. It just so happens that I don't want him to represent the Democratic Party in battle against Bush-hole. So sue me.

[sendero]

154. HEY...

... you know I'm no fan of Kerry's but you'll find me defending the f-word comment in several threads. I contend that the culture of our country has changed since the 50s, and few people are shocked by that word any more.

Blows the deanibopper theory all to hell don't it :)

[Scott Lee]

157. Amen! I still can't figure out the social stigma with that word.

You can say "screwed" all you want - but the f bomb, Jeezus it still sends some into gasping fits.

Come on people. It's not 1955 anymore.

[ACK]

145. I respect the hell out of Kerry ...

I still hope that he pulls something out of his hat and can re-ignite the fire in his campaign.

I am leaning toward Clark and thinking hard about Dean.

Still, my heart says vote for Kerry.

You are right despite the dumb ass waffling on the war and a some other things the man is a consistent killer badass democrat.

[Hippo_Tron]

149. Would you people STOP COMPLAINING!!!!!

Kerry is my choice for the primary and frakly I don't care when others criticize him. I'm sick and fucking tired of people going on and on about "Dean said this about Kerry" and "Kerry said this about Dean" and so on... Can't we all just get along, say positive things about our candidates, and let the media be the ones who point out when one candidate criticizes another.

[sendero]

155. that would be nice...

.... now wouldn't it :)

[cosmicdot]

150. it might have helped had he stood with the CBC at the Electoral College

... which would have meant putting Gore, Party and Country first ... regardless of where that would have led ... it would have been the right thing to do ... both Constitutionally and historically ... a true profile in courage and leadership ... but, as it was reported: no one 'asked' him to sponsor the Congressional Black Caucus effort ...

the CBC would have been 'in order' with one Senator ... just one ...

I promised to never forget ... any and all parts of the 2000 debacle ...

[Kamika]

153. If you want to play the game...

Kerry and everyone else knows that this game is dirty. If he didn't have thick skin he wouldn't have played it.

He knew what he went in to and thats the game he's playing

[RebelOne]

156. Hannity had a field day with him on the radio this afternoon.

He was saying that Kerry dropped the "F" bomb and should apologize.