one lefty's support for Dean

[ulysses]

My support for Dean represents the first time since I turned 18 that I've supported the frontrunner in a presidential primary. Honestly, it feels weird.

Every four years, like a good liberal, I blue-sky it in the Democratic primary and vote for who I figure is the most liberal offering. They predictably lose and then I suck it up and vote for whomever it is that got enough establishment support to win the nomination (or at least I did until '96). Thus continues the rightward slide of my party with my tacit blessing.

In 1996 and 2000, I stopped sucking it up and voted for He Who Shall Not Be Named. I don't regret those votes even a little bit.

However.

Dean, I think, presents us with an option other than being overly obedient to the Dem hierarchy on the one hand and voting third party on the other. I've never thought that he was the candidate who best represents my views, and he's never, to my knowledge, pretended to be, but as Armstead said the other day, he listens to the left. (One is sorely tempted at times to hear echoes of Nader in 2000 in that willingness on Dean's part to listen, but that's probably too facile.) And he fights. Whether his anger is hot or cold doesn't much matter to me - that he fights the right is huge, as is his willingness to campaign unconventionally.

I guess they call it "incrementalism". Howard Dean isn't the Second Coming. He's not going to lead us to any kind of progressive promised land and, should he win the White House next year, I fully expect to have to keep his feet to the fire as much as any other candidate. But I think that pulling the country leftward is the work of decades, not of one election, and I think Dean's a start.

Anyway...

[Vikingking66]

1. i totally agree

One of the reasons I support Dean is that I think if his CAMPAIGN succeeds, than we can use the same technique to propel a more
left-of-center presidential candidate to victory eight years down
the road.

[realFedUp]

2. nicely stated

He's a fighter....for us.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. That exactly why I'm supporting him...

Every one of our candidates would make a better President than Shrub, but Dean is the only one (with an actual shot at the nomination) not deeply ensconced into the DLC machine. And his passion is something I find very appealing. There's something "Rooseveltian" about him. And we'll need another bold and progressive leader like FDR to undue the mess he'll inherit from Shrub...

[ibegurpard]

4. I'm far too cynical

to trust any politician completely like I did when I was young and Clinton first ran. I fully expect that Dean will let me down in more ways than one. However, he has given me the indication that he is AWARE of what concerns me and others outside of the loop of political consultants and pollsters. The importance of that to me cannot be understated. NONE of the people running will be able to deliver on all they promise...that is just a fact we need to acknowledge. But I prefer to put my backing behind someone who has given me the impression that he seems to be aware of what he is up against.

[Padraig18]

5. Thank you, ulysses!

:hug:

[slinkerwink]

6. good post!

[buddhamama]

7. His campaign has brought life

to the primaries and the party overall, there is no denying that.

i don't recall this much excitement during the last presidential campaign. the nastiness aside, i'm enjoying the process.

If he should win the presidency, i look forward to holding his feet to the fire. And, i hope others do too. Keeping people involved after the election is over would be a political win for the DEM party and progressives alike.

:hi:

[ulysses]

10. that's the thing, exactly.

Electing a Democrat and then going to sleep won't cut it, and there's not a single one of them (even DK, imho) whose feet we won't have to put in the flames, at least occasionally.

:hi:

[depakid]

8. Incrementalism is exactly what they call it

in public policy circles. One of the first things that impressed me about Dean was that he explicitly stated that he wasn't going to promise things he couldn't deliver and he made it clear to the audience that they wouldn't agree with him on everything.

But, you and Armstead are right- Dean listens, and is not afraid to change his mind where the evidence warrants it. I've seen this in his record and I've observed it during his campaign. Like you, I've never backed a frontrunner in my entire life- and it does feel wierd- it's exhilarating- watching someone you support not only make all the right moves, but garner the kind of support it takes to win.

I harbor no illusions about Dean at all. I'm as wary as the next progressive- yet the man seems genuine, rational and caring and he surrounds himself with sincere, intelligent and hardworking people. That in and of itself is so damn refreshing. Not to mention your point about not having to feign obedience to the party hierarchy....

[ulysses]

11. it pays to be wary

Entirely agreed. :hi:

[jiacinto]

55. The reality on Dean

Of the candidates running he is the most liberal you can probably get without being unacceptable to the general electorate at large. Period. DK, Al Sharpton, and CMB are too liberal and too extreme for most of American. Lieberman is going nowhere--and is probably sufferin a lot due to the inherent antisemtism that exists among the Palestinian extremists on the far left. He also has the perception that he is "conservative", despite that not being true. Kerry's campain is foundering. Same with Gephardt. He doesn't inspire.

That leaves Clark and Edwards. I supported Dean--and still support him--because he spoke up early on. I respect that. I would also be happy with Clark and Edwards.

However, the reality is obvious--Dean is probably the most liberal candidate that is still electable and acceptable to the general public at large.

[Ardee]

72. I have never bought into that stuff, Carlos, sorry

I believe that the candidate who will best Bush will have to speak to the disenfranchised, those who have removed themselves froom the system because they correctly see that it doesnt represent them. I further believe that to fail to speak to the real issues, those you always seem to characterise as left wing wishful thinking, will be a death sentence to democratic chances.

Whether or not one might call the palestinians leftist is a matter for another post.

[jiacinto]

74. The myth of the non-voters

You have no idea that they are left leaning.

[Rose Siding]

9. A journey of a thousand miles begins with...

blowing the status quo out of the water :)

[ulysses]

13. LOL!

A good point. :D Dean may not be exactly blowing the status quo out of the water on policy - he's really not - but an innovative campaign and a willingness to at least not ignore your party's progressives pretty much amounts to the same thing in our age.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. I have come, a little reluctantly, to Dean.

After the Quisling 4's cowardly votes backing the slaughter, I was prepared to "waste" my vote (again) in the primary, and vote Green in the General. I had held my nose and voted for Clinton and Gore in the Generals with some hope that the party would, at some point, return to the left. Votes I later regretted for not voting Green.

I fully expected the same scenario this time. The moneybags, "connected", "politics as usual", "I'm not a liberal", wing of the party would win yet again.

But, Dean has shown that he can defy the conventional wisdom by going to the people and speaking out strongly. Is he the flaming torch that will save the country from itself? I doubt it. Is he "left" enough? No. But, he has turned the DLC/DNC insiders on their pathetic heads.

He may not save the country but he may save the Democratic party from it's worst inclinations.

My heart remains with Sharpton, Kucinich, or Braun. But, Dean will get my vote.

[slinkerwink]

14. welcome aboard but remember if Dean gets the WH, he'll be

setting up a way for people like Braun/Kucinich to follow once Dean gets his health care plan in. :hi:

[ulysses]

15. completely understood and agreed

My support for Dean has gotten very soft at times, and my heart remains with Kucinich. Still, someone who pisses off the DLC this much can't be all bad. ;-)

[whirlygigspin]

16. well said Ulysess

hat's off to you

[jpgray]

17. It's too soon to tell if Dean listens to the left

My guess is that if he wins the nomination and is elected, he will be a moderate Democrat along the lines of Clinton. All his records in Vermont that are available support this assertion.

Since, however, his financial support is grounded in internet activists, it only makes sense for him to talk the leftist talk, right? He doesn't need to adhere to it, and he can say it without fear of being called "hypocrite!" since he has no Congressional record to foul things up.

However, all that is fine with me and I expect and accept it. Even with all that I am sure that Dean is one of the best candidates out there, and I would be very happy to see him as the nominee--he's one of only three I have given 250$. If Kerry is eventually torpedoed (likely), then I will support Dean in the primary unless he is a total lock, in which case I will support Kucinich.

All these hardheaded pragmatists here who parse every Bush statement seem to fall to pieces when someone like Nader or Dean comes along telling them the same thing politicians have been saying for thousands of years--I think/feel as you do, give me money and give me power. Lefties can be just as blind as those on the right, when it comes to a kind of obscene desire to believe something that is likely to be false, and ambtious folks with charisma will net all the idealists every time.

Yopu may be right though--the great thing is we never really know, do we?

:D

[Eloriel]

24. jp, I understand your cynicism, but it's getting in your way a bit

Really, it is.

My guess is that if he wins the nomination and is elected, he will be a moderate Democrat along the lines of Clinton. All his records in Vermont that are available support this assertion.

He's never made any bones about being a "centrist." However, I've seen him grow tremendously as he's gone around the country LISTENING to people. I think he's grown to the left, while staying a fiscal conservative, of course. Doesn't mean he'll turn into some raving hardcore leftie, just that he doesn't necessarily believe he knows it all for all time -- and most of all is responsive to his constituents. How long have we been waiting for THAT?

Since, however, his financial support is grounded in internet activists, it only makes sense for him to talk the leftist talk, right? He doesn't need to adhere to it, and he can say it without fear of being called "hypocrite!" since he has no Congressional record to foul things up.

I am always surprised when I see the figures -- his internet fundraising is NOT as large as I'd been led to believe.

But most of all, I really reject your premise: that it's all just talk. In fact, that is precisely the "secret" of his appeal -- that he is the real thung, authentic, unscripted, unhandled, UNBOUGHT, etc. (Now,of course, he's getting SOME advice or "handling" -- including from bloggers on his blog -- but not anything like what Gore allowed, etc.)


Eloriel

[jpgray]

27. One great thing about Dean is you can see him get excited about issues

So I definitely wouldn't say everything he says is a calculated ploy to net the left. But I would say he's taken his politics and put them in a more leftist package, and there's nothing wrong with that. I would say that largely because of his Iraq stance and that activist excitement he has, he seems more left than he probably will end up being in office. However--he would do no worse than his major competitors, and he might do a bit better. There are three or four of the establishment guys who can at least stop the bleeding and maybe heal some things, and Dean's one of them. Goes without saying you have to be establishment at least in some degree to win the nomination--Kucinich would be an incredibly interesting president, but it will never happen.

[ozone_man]

18. I share that view.

I voted for Nader last time, but not this time (for a minute I thought you were referring to Lord Voldemort :) ). I'm further left than Dean, but it's time to start the swing back from the cliff edge that we are on and I think Dean is the one who can do it. Part of that is the ability to be elected, of course.

All in all, Dean represents the social issues important to me and he will not let the budget balloon into the stratosphere.

[ecstatic]

19. From what I'm hearing, Dean has attracted a LOT of first time voters

All it took was one speech earlier this year for me to get hooked.

[Armstead]

20. Been drinking that Dean Kool Aid eh?

I stated my feelings the otehr day, which are about the same as yours.

But I also live near Vermont, and had a basically favorable opinon of Dean long before he was ever a national politician. He's basically a pragmatic liberal, rather then a centrist.

I wish the rest of the Democratic Party would stop falling for the label that he's a leftie pacifist, and get to understand that Dean is basically a smart, sharp liberal pragmatist who knows how to get things done.

[ulysses]

25. nah - it's been offered

but I've been too busy shooting pool and scratching my ass. :D

[Eloriel]

34. That's a terrific description

Liberal pragmatic, or pragmatic liberal.

One of the things that turns me absolutely ON about the guy is his pragmatism. I LOVE that. Other candidates offer things that just won't (can't) happen, like universal payer. I'll take a pragmatic approach that CAN pass over pie-in-the-sky any day.

Eloriel

[Zomby Woof]

21. getting to be quite the pragmatist as you age?

What's that adage about turning conservative at 40? ;-)

Just kidding Uly. Though I firmly believe Dean is the wrong person for the nomination, and will continue to say so, I am glad you crafted a defense of him based on very real, and very concrete logical foundations, which reconciles your ideological position with a long-term schematic to fight for its implementation within the system. I myself have long argued that the change must come from within, and not from the sidelines.

Dean gives you that hope, and that is a good start. We may disagree about him, but our goals are similar - getting a more progressive agenda in place - incrementally if necessary.

If Dean becomes president, I hope the Democrats in Congress fight for him, and not cave to the GOP majority. I certainly will end my quarrel with him if he gets into office. In the end, we all have the same adversary, and the same goals.

[ulysses]

23. heh - been waiting for you to show up.

Joking aside, it is about pragmatism. When I first considered Dean, it was as "insurance" against someone even further center/rightward getting the nomination, since DK never had a prayer in Georgia. The rationale has continued to evolve.

I think real change has to come both from within and without. The "without" part I think has to come from us, largely, but like I say, I don't regret my Nader votes. I know you don't like Dean - several others here whose opinions I very much respect don't either, and that doesn't bother me. I trust my friends to follow their best lights. :)

[Zomby Woof]

26. ah yes

I shouldn't have come across as dismissive of 'outside' activism, since I participate in that very thing, and with energy. It IS needed to supplement the change from within. Mainly, as a repository of creativity and ideas. "Agitate, agitate, agitate", as Hightower says. Often, it is the progressive ideas similar to "the party which should not be named" that get assimilated into the fold of the larger party.

Civil rights? Once "outside", with the Socialists, then assimilated by the Democrats with a nudge from Truman (who would never admit rival Henry Wallace thought of it first), and a little more than a decade later, voila, a landmark law signed in 1964. We CAN do great things like that again. Hopefully, not over such spans of time. But we CAN.

Dean's candidacy is helping people believe that again, rather than falling into cynicism and hopelessness. He is certainly the insurance needed against a Lieberman nod, which thankfully, seems unlikely. :-)

I liked Nader when he ran in 2000 - you are right to stick by your principles without apology - but I actually supported Bradley at first. I have a tradition of supporting the principled liberal Democratic underdog ever since casting my first primary vote for Paul Simon in 1988. As for 2004, no predictions, just work for my candidate and hope for the best outcome. But I am prepared for any outcome.

Except one: Bush claiming four more years. We cannot accept that outcome.

[ulysses]

28. same here, actually.

but I actually supported Bradley at first.

I supported him until he dropped out.

[IndianaGreen]

22. I supported and voted for "He Who Shall Not Be Named" in 2000

I love Kucinich. Dennis best represents my views. Dennis is not going to win the nomination, partly because many American recoil at his nobility. To admit Dennis is right is to admit we were wrong, and we know how hard it is for Americans to ever admit they were wrong about anything!

I support Dean. I have supported Dean since I first heard him speak early in 2002. Dean is a centrist, but he is a centrist bulldog, one that will attack the Bushites without mercy instead of rolling over and play dead.

Dean reminds me of Paul Tsongas, a man I supported until I was seduced by Bill Clinton's charisma in 1991. Tsongas believed, as I do, that in order to fund the social programs we believe in, we must be able to afford to pay for them. Bush's "spend and borrow" economics are a recipe for disaster for ourselves and for future generations. Only Dean, from among all the other candidates, can restore the fiscal discipline that Clinton brought to the government. In case you forgot, Clintonomics gave us prosperity, jobs, balanced budgets, and a budget surplus.

As Hillary Clinton said yesterday, another Bush term will cause irreparable harm to the country. I will also add, another Bush term will also cause irreperable harm to the environment and permanently destroy international institutions, the rule of law, and the peace and stability of the world. Bush is as much a threat to this planet as Adolf Hitler was in the 1930s.

This is not the time for quixotic quests, or samurai battle for some vapid concept of right-and-wrong or morality. Like it or not, our electoral system sucks. As long as there is no proportional representation, and we are slaves of the undermocratic Electoral College (and the winner-take-all system of awarding states' votes), we are stuck with a duopoly of political parties. The Election of 2004 is not the time, or the place, to right the many wrongs of our electoral process. It is the time, however, to prevent a greater wrong from being inflicted on our country.

I will vote for the Democratic candidate in 2004 because that is the ONLY way to stop Bush from dismantling what is left of American freedoms and imposing a modern version of the cruel 19th century capitalism.

[ulysses]

32. your support

got my attention early on. One quibble here, though:

In case you forgot, Clintonomics gave us prosperity, jobs, balanced budgets, and a budget surplus.

I'm less willing to lay that all on the altar of Clinton - the tech bubble was an amazing thing. It's an interesting thing to see Molly Ivins call Dean even less a liberal than Clinton. I'm not sure that I agree with her, but in the event that she's right, all the more reason to keep an eye on him if he gets into office.

[KittyWampus]

29. The Myth Of Dean "The Outsider"

Dean's Presidential Campaign was seeded with money from Vermont Yankee/Entergy, A Big Energy company owned by the Kcoh Bro's.

That's right, before Dean became people powered he was very much Big Energy/Cato Institute powered.

Dean's campaign staff are Washington Insiders.

Dean himself is a DLC'er who is responsible for dragging the Democratic party to the right.

Dean is NOT an outsider nor is he an alternative to business as usual.

But you just go right on decieving yourself... but please tell me:

WHY DOESN'T IT BOTHER YOU THAT DEAN'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN WAS ORIGINALLY FUNDED BY THE KOCH BROTHERS?

[ulysses]

30. we're not at the point

where we're going to have a serious candidate who receives *no* corp. money. Does it bother me? Sure. As I said, Dean isn't the Second Coming, and I don't expect him to be.

[Iverson]

31. re: your argument for incrementalism and Dean

You make your case very reasonably. It is infinitely preferable to being hectored into surrendering to conservatism with a capital D.

[ulysses]

35. heh

...conservatism with a capital D.

:thumbsup:

A large part of me is dissatisfied with my own reasoning, to be honest. It feels like a sellout at times. Still, I'd be less than honest with myself if I didn't admit that the incrementalist view seems to me like the way to go.

[Iverson]

77. on satisfaction and reasoning

Hey, ulysses.

"A large part of me is dissatisfied with my own reasoning, to be honest. It feels like a sellout at times."

Your reasoning is fine just so long as the underlying warrants hold. That's the problem or tricky part.

The most important of these warrants is that Dean would indeed advance policies that you'd support. The danger in assuming that it's true is that most executives must compromise. Your support for Dean is already a compromise. It's very likely that Dean, in turn, will compromise with conservative Dems and neofascist Republicans. Whether this will result in your getting a little of what you want or a little of what you don't want is anyone's guess.

Clinton's example demonstrates the uncertainty of such an underlying assumption. Suppose that you were alarmed by the elimination of good paying jobs in the US. Clinton's rhetoric was generally very good, but on a policy level, his support for economic globalization and welfare reform worked exactly against the people thrown out of work.

This is the nature of the guessing game that you face, and I suspect that it feels like walking a tightrope. If you have feelings of ambivalence, the word for that is normal.

[ulysses]

78. it's definitely a gamble

I expect it to be a regular trade-off. I don't know that Dean will be any better than Clinton was on globalization (although the Greider endorsement is interesting in that regard) but he does seem to be making a break on at least some levels with the DLC/Clinton mold. Again, that may be too facile an analysis of the DLC/Dean feud, but I can always hope. :)

Ambivalence - yeah. It's a crap shoot with anyone, but remembering that the election's only part of the deal, and that a lot will remain up to us no matter who is sitting in the Oval Office, helps.

[ryharrin]

33. I think another point needs to be made.

Every president in a long time (since Carter, FDR, ever?) has been backed financially huge donations and corporate money. Dean's hundreds of thousands regular people will have access to him instead of oil and media companies. It doesn't matter whether he's liberal or conservative, it'll be a whole lot better having someone not beholden to the richest 1% of the country.

[KG]

36. well, it could've been worse

the clarkies might've got to ya first.... :)

[ulysses]

37. it could still get worse

Wait until I start calling you a "progressive whatever". :D

[KG]

38. i'd prefer 'leftist lemming' -

as a clarkie once called me. :eyes:

[buddhamama]

39. lemmings are cute

and they have been known to eat their own...hmmm.

but don't sweat it KG,
a Borg wouldn't know where they began and another ended.

[Iverson]

43. I thought you were ...

... "the wrong kind of left."

:pals:

[Terwilliger]

40. A POX ON YOUR HOUSE FOR THIS OUTRAGE!!

:hi:

Oh, I understand. He's the closest thing possible to stemming the tide of the right-wing, while still "electable" I think he has some serious work to do to gain the favor of the party establishment, and I don't know how much that will affect his "left" leaning.

I think that by the time I vote (March 2nd) there will be clear choices on who will become the nominee, and I'll reserve that commitment until that day.

I still want Dennis Kucinich to be the party's nominee.

[ulysses]

41. SNARF

Yeah, well, what does a toxic waste leftist know about mainstream America?

:D

You're right about Dean and the party establishment. I expect more to-the-center talk, and am bracing myself for that.

Happiness is having strong-minded friends with differing opinions. :D

[Terwilliger]

50. EEEK!

touche

I know NUTHINK!

[ulysses]

51. guys your height don't say "eeek", do they?

:D

[Terwilliger]

52. I'm an aberration

But you nailed me on toxicity...and I thought my abrasion was like a soft beard

[Eloriel]

42. Glad yo have you with us, Uly

But you sure don't seem very excited -- or even upbeat-- about your decision.

It also surprises me that you're missing THE most exciting part of this Dean candidacy/campaign. Yes, he listens. Yes, he fights. Those two alone are wonderful (and, sadly, somewhat unique).

You're missing the revolution.

Go find out about it, won't you? You'll begin to see all kinds of exciting possibilities.

Eloriel

P.S. Here are some hints, gleaned from his New Hampshire director's appearance on C-Span today (paraphrased some, no doubt, since i didn't write them down):

Politics has been run too much with voters as consumers of a product. We're changing that so that people are participants again. Dean isn't a product we're trying to brand, he's a (facilitator).

For too long this process has been in the hands of the professionals --pundits, consultants, etc. In this campaign we're getting the amateurs involved again, and the root of the word amateur is love --they're involved for the love of it. They have other reasons (than the pros do) for wanting their candidate to win.

-----

Now, your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to go see how that works on a daily basis. :-)

http://www.blogforamerica.com/

Eloriel

[ulysses]

44. excitement has its limits, yes.

I'm comfortable enough with the decision, and I'm excited by the possibilities, but the upshot of all this is that *we* have to remain involved, and I don't see that as being automatic by any means. I don't see a revolution.

[buddhamama]

48. an important question is,

will the so-called 'revolution' spread?

who's in the drivers seat is only one consideration for the running of our country. if Dean is attracting and energizing new voters to the party, i applaud him. but, there are House races to consider too, and without wins there, the problem of keeping people motivated and participating could be difficult. they'll need to see change/progress, and with the Houses controlled by Repubs that could be very very slow going.

i guess my wish is that, whomever should get the nomination will attract enough voters to the party overall. we need their excitement for the candidate to vote DEM in all the races, so that their candidate's policies stand a chance.

this is one of the few candidate threads i have actually enjoyed.

you're all right, ulysses. :thumbsup:

[Eloriel]

63. Dean is already on it

And has been for about a month or more.

Recently he invited his supporters to help out the one lone Dem Congressman in Iowa -- andmgot him $51,000 in short order.

He's been talking about voting in a Dem Congress, and getting lots of NEW voters (more yet), etc. He (or Trippi?) also mentioned that once Dean has the nomination they would be raising money for Congressional candidates.

Like I said, he's on it. ;-)

Eloriel

[buddhamama]

67. that is encouraging

i am pleased to hear that the issue of voting in the House races are not being ignored, at least by Dean. good for him :thumbsup:

[Eloriel]

60. And by all means don't trouble yourself to go look

at what i might be talking about.

(Sometimes I feel like the words I say go thru some invisible filter which render them meaningless to others -- or rather with just enough twisted meaning left that they respond in a way that lets me know I've not been understood at all.)

Glad you're comfortble with your decision. You'll see the revolution when you're ready, I suppose. 'Cause obviously you're not ready to either take my word for it or get curious enough to investigate.

:shrug:

One request: please don't do any campaigning, okay? No canvassing, no phone banking, please. With your attitude and mood, they'll think you're promoting Kerry. :evilgrin:

Eloriel

[ulysses]

66. jesus fucking christ.

I'm terribly sorry that I'm not as geared up as you are, Eloriel. If I do any campaigning, I promise to put on my happy face.

:eyes:

[buddhamama]

68. may i suggest

cheerleaders and clowns too.

nothing says "America" like cheerleaders and clowns.

you could throw in some dancing bears for good measure, although people might think communist Russia...better not. :-)

[Terwilliger]

69. damn, and you were just getting together too!

lovers' spat?

[ibegurpard]

70. Oh wow

uncalled-for and completely counter-productive. And after a statement like that why would anyone take your advice on how to campaign?

:argh:

[Ardee]

45. If you have done your homework

and researched Deans history in Vermont and can still throw your support to him then fine, I accept your opinion, but only as it relates to your choice.My research takes me in a rather different direction.

[ulysses]

46. and I respect yours as well.

As I say, I respect folks enough to trust them to make their own decisions.

[opihimoimoi]

47. Mynah Mattahs, a Pacific Rag from the Hawaiian Islands

sez its gonna be Dean and by acclaimation, Hillary Clinton as the running mate.

Its gonna be so coool. Whata refreshing contrast to the Babbler of Crawdad and his Missing Link Cheney

[ulysses]

49. I guess we'll see, opi.

I'd love to see a woman in the VP slot, but I won't be falling over myself with joy if it's Hillary.

OTOH, Winona LaDuke may be free...:)

[ozone_man]

53. That would be incredible.

In a perfect world, Winona LaDuke. I was sort of thinking Kucinich as a VP, and that is probably going to far.

Maybe Dean is just a medium for this "revolution" that eloriel speaks of. Maybe it will keep going as sort of a grass roots process. One day.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jiacinto]

56. The reality on Dean

55. The reality on Dean


Of the candidates running he is the most liberal you can probably get without being unacceptable to the general electorate at large. Period. DK, Al Sharpton, and CMB are too liberal and too extreme for most of American. Lieberman is going nowhere--and is probably sufferin a lot due to the inherent antisemtism that exists among the Palestinian extremists on the far left. He also has the perception that he is "conservative", despite that not being true. Kerry's campain is foundering. Same with Gephardt. He doesn't inspire.

That leaves Clark and Edwards. I supported Dean--and still support him--because he spoke up early on. I respect that. I would also be happy with Clark and Edwards.

However, the reality is obvious--Dean is probably the most liberal candidate that is still electable and acceptable to the general public at large.

[Terwilliger]

57. Ladies and gentleman, time has come to an end

I agree with Carlos

[buddhamama]

59. all or some

because there was stuff i kind of shook my head in agreement with but, other stuff like Lieberman suffering from an image problem and
anti-semitism;the far left fringes wouldn't be voting democratic to begin with.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[buddhamama]

61. that person agreed with your post

the DUers was Terwilliger

[VOX]

62. He was agreeing with you Carlos!

And I'm sure that his joke was very good-natured.

[Terwilliger]

65. what irony...I agree and he doesn't even know

I HEF NO SON!!

[Ardee]

73. pssst terwilliger

carlos said he had you on ignore in an earlier thread.......must be clairvoyant in addition to his other talents.

[slinkerwink]

75. who is carlos?

[seventhson]

79. Jiacinto. I believe

correct me if I'm wrong, though

[deutsey]

71. Great post, Uly!

As a Lefty who supports Dean, I agree with you 100%. The "hot/cold" thing is a non-issue, as far as I'm concerned. "Give me liberty or give me death" was a pretty damn "hot" thing for Patrick Henry to say. Opting to something more "cold angry" would have only eveloped Henry in deserved obscurity.

Welcome aboard!

[Romberry]

76. Bravo! nt**

nt**