How do Dean and Kerry differ?

[StrongBad]

The only issues I can think of whereby there exists a disparity between the two are:

-Iraq War
-Gun Control
-Death Penalty

This is a pretty menial difference if my assessment is correct. Can anyone refute or affirm my statement? Thanks a lot!

[Ripley]

1. Kerry puts you to sleep when he talks.

Dean wakes you up!

[Frederic Bastiat]

3. And Dean is short and fat, while Kerry is tall

What's your point?

[Ripley]

6. Dean is not fat.

And I don't think he's that short...probably average American male height.

But gee, you guys sure don't have a sense of humor do you?

[molly]

10. Was this thread about humor?

[Ripley]

12. Are you the thread Nanny?

I'm not allowed to use levity in my posts now?

Gee the new DU sucks.

[molly]

22. Whoa - must be - 9 times!!!!

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[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

11. I heard he's like 5'8

[JohnKleeb]

132. thats slightly below average but I dont care

I support the guy who would likely look like a kid up against me thats right Dennis K. I think Kerry is more economically liberal than Dean remember Dean is a fiscal conservative. I dunno who I like more Kerry or Dean well I prefer Kerry for being more liberal I like Dean for opposing the war.

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

9. lol

[molly]

4. No - I saw Kerry in person - he exudes energy

charisma and intelligence. Dean looks wishy-washy and he shifts his eyes.

[TLM]

75. Kerry is a sleepy speaker...

He sounds like he has something better to do... calling it in.


I met Dean and WOW! THe man is inspirational... makes me proud to be a democrat again.


Kerry just makes me sad, sad that our party let Bush start another war, loot the surplus, gank education, and screw our troops.

And while I'll never get over the 2000 thieft, I will get over Kerry.

[blondeatlast]

71. Well, there goes my hopes for this thread. Damn, I had the same questions.

The first damn post, for Carrot Top's sake!

[vi5]

2. They don't...that's whats so silly about the whole rivalry thing....

They aren't even all that far off on the death penalty since both now say that in "extreme cases" they would be for it.

The only answer I ever get to this question is "But Dean speaks out!". Both guys would be good candidates with minor personality differences that could play either way in the general election. Nothing that can't be worked on by either guy.

But I'm sorry, I need more to enthusiastically commit myself to someone than simply him telling me things that make me feel good about being a democrat.

[molly]

7. I look at it like running a track race - you conserve until

the time is right.

[Frederic Bastiat]

5. Dean didn't have to vote for/against the war

That leaves you with gun control and the death penalty; to each his/her own.

[jcgadfly]

76. Neither did I

Most people didn't.

Sen. Kerry didn't have to vote for it either as he was running virtually unopposed. Therefore he voted for it because...he agreed with it.

I find it difficult to believe that a person with as much on the ball as Kerry got duped by Bush. It is also incomprehensible to me that any legislator would vote on something as important as this was without bothering to read it.

What was your point again?

[TLM]

78. YOu keep saying this as if having a vote on the war

is required for having a position on the Iraq war.

Dean did not vote because he was not in congress, however he has been vocal in his opposition to the war since day one.

So why doesn't that count? Simply because you say so?

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

8. One is electable and one is not

[killbotfactory]

23. Here's a few...

Kerry - For No Child Left Behind provided it's funded.
Dean - Against No Child Left Behind whether or not it's funded, thinks we should start over.

Kerry - Pro NAFTA, WTO etc... not sure if he wants to include labor standards.
Dean - Pro NAFTA, WTO but wants to change them to include labor/economic standards.

Kerry - Pro-Kyoto
Dean - Pro-Kyoto if it's changed to prevent businesses from flocking to third world nations who are exempt from regulations.

Kerry - Pro-Tax cuts, but against Bush's tax cuts which target wealthy.
Dean - Anti-tax cuts, wants to repeal Bush's tax cuts.

[TLM]

82. And don't forget....

Regarding the 2000 election thieft...


Dean feels we have good reason to be angry and that we should give power back to the people and make sure that this never happens again.


Kerry feels we should just get over it and stop crying in our tea cups.

[tpub]

24. it's not just issues

they differ in other ways (and I don't mean height)

I'm sure Dean's Meet the Press interview has been hashed and re-hashed around here before I even found this site, but his contradictions and his temper turned me off.

[KFC]

25. Kerry is a war hero

I don't think Dean served

[molly]

27. Kerry was debate champion - Dean has a problem with

that. I thought Dean had a chance before I watched him on MTP the first time. He came off as slow on the draw and very stiff.

[FoxNewsIsTheDevil]

30. Dean has a problem with talking

He struggles to finish sentences. He's sort of like our Dubya...without the low IQ, criminal history and bad ideology.

[Adamocrat]

31. C'mon!

Oh come on, please! Is that the best you can come up with? Against Tim Russert hammering me, I'd look like a dolt, too. No one can prepare for an interview where the interviewer says, "You're a steaming pile of shite. Justify yourself!"

-A

[tpub]

40. are you running?

No offense, Adamocrat, but are you running for president? Isn't this the same argument people had for voting for W? He speaks like your average Joe...

[Adamocrat]

48. Heavens no!

The fact is, against an attack dog like Russert, most people won't give their best performance. The man is vicious. I still think that Dr. Dean did a good job considering he was being attacked and insulted at every turn.

-A

[molly]

61. I remember when Kerry was on MTP and Russet tried to do the

same thing to him. He failed.

[jcgadfly]

80. Throw out the fact that Russert was practically fawning over Kerry

and you might have a similarity.

Tim handled Kerry with kid gloves compared to his run with Dean.

No, I didn't think that Dean did that good of a job either but you're comparing a respectful interview with a hit piece.

[molly]

94. Russet is afraid of Kerry but he still got some jabs

[madmax]

92. Saw that too

Kerry didn't take no crap from Timmy. Kerry wouldn't let Tim difine him - HE defined the debate. It was great to watch :)

[Ripley]

34. LOL you guys kill me...now Dean IS Dubya!

Hah. I suggest you listen to him speak in other venues than that one MTP interview.

Look, you may be energized by Kerry, but I've listened to him recently and he is boooooooooorrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnngggggggggg. Like I have said before, I'll vote for him if he gets the nomination, but frankly you aren't paying attention to what people across the country are saying. They don't nod off when Dean speaks.

[TLM]

83. Well hey if Dean is W....

Then we can expect Kerry to start kissing his ass and supporting everything Dean does.

[TLM]

85. Yeah Kerry was very exciting and energizing when he

told dems to stop crying about the 2000 election thieft and "get over it."


Too bad it was energizing to the wrong f-ing party.

[molly]

97. It's all in the intrepretation - if someone you love dies - you get

over it - don't you? If you don't, you die too. Get real! We need to be in FIGHT mode not boo-hoo-boo-hoo mode. The term "bleeding heart" is VERY insulting to me - how about you?

[jcgadfly]

102. Many interpreted Kerry's remark not as "get in FIGHT mode"

but get in "FORGET" mode.

I fear that if we forget about 2000, it will happen again. It may happen again anyway.

[TLM]

105. Kerry mouthed the republican party line... insulted dems

and reaffirmed all the things I do not like about him by telling dems to stop crying in their tea cups and "get over it."


I wonder if he's going to get a nice "Sore/Loserman" sticker for his campaign bus?


A nice topper to his silence over the DLC attacking leftists and activists in the democratic party. Guess he felt the DLC was not attacking dems enough, so he had to pipe up witht he get over it comment.

[Ripley]

29. Dean had a med deferment.

But what you are saying is basically no female should entertain the notion of running for President because she could never be a "war hero" since females are not allowed to serve in combat capacity.

By excluding half the population and then all of the "non war hero" men, you sure have a limited number of people you think are qualified to run our country.

[molly]

32. Hillary is not a veteran and she has a tremendous chance

in a later election.

[Ripley]

37. Not according to KFC.

His post was a single issue.

[blm]

35. Did the med deferment stop him from protesting the war?

It seems he didn't take ANY side back then. I guess that's another difference. Kerry served but came home to spearhead a movement AGAINST the Vietnam war which helped bring it to an end.

[killbotfactory]

39. Have your politics changed at all since you were 20?

Come on, this is ridiculous.

[blm]

43. I only asked a simple question.

Is there an answer that can be cited?

[killbotfactory]

50. He said he was against the war..

I don't think he protested.

At Yale, Dean was a political-science major, but his college friend Ralph Dawson, now a Manhattan lawyer, says Dean wasn’t politically ambitious then: “If he wanted to be president, he certainly didn’t tell me.” Dean opposed the war in Vietnam, but he wasn’t an outspoken protester. He was classified 1-Y by his draft board because of an unfused vertebra in his back. Dean’s sixties-era entry in his Yale yearbook lists his future occupation as “living” and quotes a favorite Neil Young song: “Don’t let it bring you down . . . ”

link

[TLM]

88. Anything to change the subject from the Iraq war that

Kerry supported. Or the rest of Bush's garbage Kerry gladly voted for.

Quick claim Dean is not a war hero because dodged the draft by cleverly going to his induction physical and being rejected... oh wait that won't work, then attack him for not protesting the war... yeah.

Can't get him for not being a war hero, then get him for not being an anti-war protester.

Damn, BLM make up your mind.

[blm]

122. I didn't bring it up...

the post ahead of mine did. Mine was a reply.

[Ripley]

42. Oh man. Now Kerry has reached God-like proportions.

He single-handedly ended the Vietnam War.

[molly]

46. You must be having a really bad day - you seem to be edgy

or something?

[Ripley]

47. Actually I'm in a great mood, it's my birthday.

I haven't started partying yet, but having fun with you guys here!

[molly]

54. Well, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

[Ripley]

56. Thanks!

And honestly where do you get the notion that I'm edgy? I think I can be quite sarcastic, but in a dry humor way. And seriously I am way, way calmer than about 50% of other posters on DU who have to rant and cuss their way through a post!

:toast: Cheers to me!

[mdmc]

89. Happy birthday Rips

Now the difference

Kerry war hero
Dean did not serve (could a poor black kid get a med def back then?)

Kerry nationally known
Dean not yet known

Kerry supported Bush's war
Dean opposed it

Kerry is a bonesmen
Dean is not a member of Skull and Bones

Both are rich Yankees (not so good for us in the south)
both support the death penalty (good during the general election)
both support the drug war (general election good)

Kerry seems unable to generate interest in his race
Dean is growing by leaps and bounds.

Dean opposed the war. I voted for Nader in 2000. I support Dean.
I'll get behind whomever wins the nomination.

[Ripley]

93. Why thank you!

You make some great comparisons my friend.

I too voted for Nader in 2000, only because here in the heart of Dixie they didn't even know Gore was on the ticket!

:party:

[TLM]

110. I think even a poor black kid could get Y-1

for having a misplaced disk issue with his back.


The armed forces do not want to waste money training anybody who won't make it to the field of combat.

If on week 5 of boot camp you go down with a pinched nerve in your spine... you're done, and the army is not only out the money it cost to train you, but also what it will cost to fix you.

[mdmc]

148. Good luck in the Army

And God Bless!

[madmax]

95. Happy Birthday

:toast:

[Ripley]

100. This is my first online Birthday Party!

So nice of yall to come. Where are my presents????

:bounce: :party: :beer: :smoke: :bounce: :spank: :toast:

[blm]

60. Happy day....

we'll party together AFTER the primaries. ;)))))

[Ripley]

65. Oh come on now...I'll party with Kerry backers any day!!

:toast: :party: :beer: :spank:

In that order!!

Altho I think my fellow Dean supporters might be more fun! :evilgrin:

[Forkboy]

64. Could you provide a link proving

it's your birthday?

:evilgrin:

[Ripley]

66. I could post my DOB....

but then I would most definitely have to kill you.

:party:

[blm]

53. Can you cite that?

I was certain I said this,

"Kerry served but came home to spearhead a movement AGAINST the Vietnam war which helped bring it to an end."

Where YOU claim I said this,

"He single-handedly ended the Vietnam War."

Perception problems?

[KFC]

38. What about Jessica Lynch?

She should be old enough to run in about 15 years.

Actually, my point is that Kerry's war hero past is a particularly attractive quality in these times. There have been many non-hero Presidents, starting with Clinton.

[Ripley]

45. Pvt Lynch is a "war hero" because what?

She wrecked her jeep and got captured? That is ridiculous.

She'll end up doing Playboy in a year, do the talk show circuit and be burned out in 10 minutes, not 15.

I don't think being a war hero has anything to do with actually running the country, which takes more diplomacy than "fighting."

[KFC]

55. I guess it is not funny

If you have to point out it's a joke.

Anyway, Kerry being a war hero nullifies Bush's hawkish stance. It will help him get elected. And you can bet your ass that Kerry has much more high-level foreign policy/diplomatic experience than the Govenor of Vermont. Although I've heard that Ben & Jerry are pretty tough negotiators.

[Ripley]

59. And that most-respected by the UN guy, um, er, um

Bill Clinton had such world leadership skills as Governor of one of the poorest rural states in America.

SARCASM.

[molly]

68. Were his years as president GREAT years or what?

I know I prospered and now I'm not. People had jobs and now they don't. So, what's wrong with Bill?

[Ripley]

73. You do not understand sarcasm?

I remember the Great, yes, Great days when Bill got long standing ovations from the UN and frankly any world stage he stood upon and spoke truly presidential.

I am so ashamed of the nitwit who is running around pretending to speak for us.

(My post was trying to compare Dean to Clinton, in that neither was a war-hero, neither had any REAL foreign policy experience and neither served in the military. However, that did not stop Clinton from being elected twice.)

[TLM]

91. Two words... Max CLeland.

Being a war hero doesn't mean shit when you're up against Bush.


They'll hit Kerry with throwing medals on the white house lawn, and the whole war hero play will be a dead end. It will look phoney.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. War Heroes get medals for killing people.

The more efficient they are at it, the more medals they get.

I once respected Kerry and considered him "my" candidate until his cowardly and cynical vote for war.

Just an observation from someone who doesn't think killing people is all that deserving of praise.

BTW, I'm a vet. USMC '61 - '65, so save the "You just don't understand crap".

[w4rma]

103. Dean on the 1-Y deferment that was given to him

Dean: First of all, let me say that there’s only one person who’s contending for the Democratic nominee for president who did serve in the military, nomination for president, and then let me explain the circumstances of my draft classification. I went to my physical in Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, which was a great deal like the scene out of Alice’s Restaurant in terms of the different sizes, shapes, colors, and all kinds of people were there. I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn’t have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. I didn’t try to get out of the draft. I had a physical. The United States government said this is your classification. I’m not responsible for that. I didn’t have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice.

Russert: A military physical.

Dean: Yeah. I had a military physical. I had a draft induction physical in Ft. Hamilton. I think it was, perhaps, during my senior year. I don’t remember the exact date.

Russert: If called, you would have served?

Dean: Of course.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

[Adamocrat]

26. Please don't hurt me!

Please don't hurt me if I'm wrong, but Dean is also rather vocal about including gays and lesbians in the fabric of America. Kerry DOES support gays and lesbians -- make no mistake. He just hasn't been as outspoken about the issue.

Being a gay man, that's a very important issue to me.

Cheers,
-A

[blm]

33. Adamocrat...check your history.

It was John Kerry who first pushed for gays to serve openly in the military in the 1980s LONG before any gay issues were discussed, and even testified FOR that in front of the Armed Services Committee. He also helped draft the Hate Crimes legislation. You do a major disservice to the history of gay causes by ignoring one of their longtime advocates in the Senate.

[Adamocrat]

36. I said...

"Kerry DOES support gays and lesbians -- make no mistake."

I just haven't heard him SPEAK OUT very much about the issue since he began his campaign. I've been keeping up with him. He just hasn't really been vocal about gay issues LATELY (i.e. while campaigning). I do appreciate his service, and I applaud all of his efforts. I'd just like to hear more from him NOW.

-A

[blm]

41. Actually advocating FOR gays goes beyond support....

and was done AHEAD of any trends. A sign of real leadership. The facts are important.

[Adamocrat]

44. F&D

That's fine and dandy. I guess I just expect more out of a leader like Senator John Kerry. Sue me.

-A

[w4rma]

113. I agree with you on this, blm

Kerry has done a good job on that issue, IMHO. (Disclaimer: I'm a pro-gay heterosexual)

[molly]

49. I believe you will when the campaigns go full gear

[Adamocrat]

51. Don't doubt that!

I don't doubt that for one second, and as I've said in other threads, if Senator Kerry gets the nomination I will support him 100%. I just want Senator Kerry to address gay and lesbian issues up front, NOW, not months from now. I want Senator Kerry to address gay issues to the straight world, too, not just at HRC fundraisers. You'd better believe I expect the same from Dr. Dean, too. (To date he has been very vocal about gay and lesbian issues - even with straight crowds.)

I admire Senator Kerry a great deal, and I would be thrilled to no end to see him remove Dumbya from office, believe me. I'm not blind to him or any other candidate, I just support Dr. Dean because he has (thus far in this campaign) shown the most support for the issue that is closest to my heart.

-A

Howard Dean For America!

[blm]

28. Kerry for public financing.

Kerry a committed environmentalist for over 30 years.
Kerry never accepted corporate pac money.
Kerry has extensive experience with veterans' and military matters, and foreign policy.
Kerry worked with world leaders crafting the Kyoto Accord and earned their respect.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. Kerry has blood on his hands

and is complicit in the murder of Iraqis and the deaths of American troops for political gain. No different than Bush.

Is that not enough reason to shun him? He sold us out in favor of the right wing.

I'm not a great supporter of Dean because he's too conservative on some issues, but I can vote for him.

Kerry (the alleged "war hero" who got his medals for killing people) has apparantly gone back to his roots.

He is worthy only of contempt from anti-war liberals. (Which is redundant because pro-war liberals is an oxymoron).

[blm]

58. He got his medals for saving the lives of those

who were lost and separated from their fellow soldiers, risking his life many times over to save the lives of others.

The Biden-Lugar bill that authorized military action was not far off the Iraq resolution.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. Hurray for him but..

if he's so proud of saving lives, why did he vote FOR the fratboy-in-chief's war? Did he believe the lies about WMD? About an "imminent threat"? Did he think that American lives would not be lost? Did he believe that there wouldn't be "collateral damage" of Iraqi civilians? Does this qualify as "saving lives"?

Now think about this:

a. Is he an innocent idiot who believed BushCorp's lies and couldn't see what was coming.

Or,

b. Did he vote for the war for political gain?

My answer is "b". But either way he'll not get my vote.

How alleged "liberals" can overlook that vote baffles me.

[TLM]

96. Again with the not far off crap.

"The Biden-Lugar bill that authorized military action was not far off the Iraq resolution."

Why do you keep repeating this garbage, BLM?

Is unilateral not far off from multilateral?

Is taking over and occupying Iraq not that far off from disarming Iraq with no regime change.

Is WITH the UN not far off from WITHOUT the UN?


Do you think people are going to fall for this crap?

[quinnox]

57. Kerry will win New Hampshire

Dean won't. <wink>

[blondeatlast]

70. That's the clincher for me . . .

Who has the best chance of beating hewhosnamemustnotbespoken.

I believe Kerry can.

[LSdemocrat]

63. Kerry's spent 18 years in DC

Dean hasn't

[northernsoul]

127. is that an asset or a liability

some of us out here in the fly-over country (oh god, sorry to use the Rushism) tend not to view decades inside the beltway too keenly. We like populists and outsiders, not the cool kids from the inner clique.

[rabid_nerd]

67. Other Menial Differences

Kerry has five letters, Dean has Four.

[blue america]

69. And forget the Death Penalty

Cause its not going anywhere. I'm against it, I'd love to see it abolished, but we're at least 8 years away from abolition.

[sangh0]

74. Kerry investigated Iran-Contra, MENA,

and the BFEE. Dean has not.

[Ripley]

77. Dean signed civil union legislation.

Kerry has not.

What exactly is the BFEE investigation Kerry did? Seriously. I don't know what you are referring to. (I do know what BFEE stands for.)

[sangh0]

79. BCCI

.

[Ripley]

81. Ok. I admit, I'm not a wonk like you.

(That was not an insult. In fact I admired Gore's wonkiness.)

But...what is BCCI? And what became of this investigation?

[sangh0]

84. BCCI was a bank

that was used to finance many of Bush/Reagan's criminal schemes, including Iran-Contra.

[sangh0]

87. link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5981&mesg_id=5981&page=#6065

[Ripley]

90. Thanks for the link.

But clearly his requests for information went nowhere, or we would have heard something, anything about this by Gore or any Dem in 2000. Clearly did not stop the BFEE.

However, it is interesting, thanks.

[sangh0]

112. Not exactly

He got the info. His "requests" did go "somewhere". He finished his investigation, wrote the report, and recommended prosecutions. Besides marching into the White House and hand-cuffing Reagan and Bush, what else could you reasonably expect from Kerry's investigation?

or we would have heard something

I can't speak for you, but I certainly heard something about this from other Dems. Are you operating under the illusion that if you didn't hear it, it didn't happen?

Clearly did not stop the BFEE.

Yeah, and??? Senators don't have the power to arrest anyone, nevermind POTUS and VPOTUS. Kerry did all he could do, given his powers as a Senator. If it weren't for him, we probably wouldn't know as much as we now do about the BFEE.

[TLM]

99. ANd what came of Kerry's investigation of his frat brother's Daddy?

And if Kerry had all this knowledge of the evils of the BFEE, why on earth would he vote to give Bush the authority to go to war?


Kerry... member of Skull & Bones.

Dean... not.

[molly]

101. You guys sure fight dirty - where did you learn to do that?

Kerry voted to get approval from the UN along with most everyone else. Dean was a dud in college.

[Ripley]

104. Dean finished medical school in 3 years.

That would be the Albert Einstein Medical School. Not really a dud.

Where are my presents molly?

:party:

[molly]

106. My birthday is in less than 2 weeks - let's call it even!

intellectually Dean is fine - it's his "people skills" that suck.

[Ripley]

111. Okay....Even!

Hope your milestone is a good one!

Hmmmm...people skills. Yes, he could work on his "Mr. Politican-speak" and he will. I think he will be finely tuned by next November.

[TLM]

115. I've seen Dean work a crowd...

and I can think of 7.5 million examples of Dean super people skills.

[TLM]

118. No he voted to give Bush the authority to decide

when they had done all they could to get the UN behind the war, then to go ahead and attack Iraq.


There was no UN approval requierment in the authorization Kerry supported.

[sangh0]

121. That's not true

The Iraqi resolution did not give Bush* any authority to decide anything. All of POTUS's powers derive from the Constitution, and nothing Congress does overrides the Constitution. The Constitution makes POTUS the CINC of the military, and that gives POTUS the power and authority to wage war even without UN approval.

[sangh0]

116. Can you translate that into English?

And FYI, the Iraq resolution didn't give Bush* the authority to go to war; The Constitution (and the Supreme Court) did that by making Bush* CINC. You might want to give it a read someday.

[TLM]

120. Really? Care to cite the part of the constitution that says

the C&C has the authority to declare war?


The version of the constitution I've read says that is solely the job of the congress.

And I'll be happy to once again quote the authorization section of the bill that specifically states BUSH is given the authority and discretion to go to war.

Congress abdicated their most important responsibility to the legislative branch and Kerry was fully in support of it.

[sangh0]

123. Think while you read. It helps

1) The "resolution" was NOT a "Declaration of War". Resolutions are "non-binding" which means they do not carry the force of law.

2) CINC does not need a Declaration of War or a resolution to *WAGE* war (see Panama, Grenada, Korea, VietNam)

3) Congress abdicated their most important responsibility to the legislative branch and Kerry was fully in support of it

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Congress *is* the legislative branch, and so Congress can't "abdicate" it to "the legislative branch". I think you mean that Congress failed in it's responsibility to prevent Bush*'s war, but that's just as inane because the Constitution places no such responsibility on Congress.

You might make more sense if you stopped relying on slogans, and used logical arguments instead.

[Mechatanketra]

145. Bullhockey.

OK, here's a logical argument for you, Sangha.

SEC. 2. (b) Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

SEC. 2. (c) The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.

From the War Powers Act of 1973 (emphasis mine, of course) -- in short, the President's war powers are clearly subordinated to Congressional approval. In other words, Congress gets to define when the President can use any war powers, and that currently that definition is limited to declarations of war, specific laws (such as the Iraq vote), or responses to actual attacks. Being "commander in chief" does not authorize the President to start wars as he chooses, it merely means he's the top dog once a war has started.

Now, it's certainly true that the President doesn't, in practical terms, actually need a resolution to wage war -- any more than I need a shopkeeper's permission to physically take money out of the till. But that's not the same as saying he has the authority to do so.

[blm]

124. No, Dean and Bush's grandmothers were close

and bridesmaids for each other.

Almost everything we know about the BFEE is due to Kerry's investigations of BCCi, IranContra, ans CIA drugrunning.

NO congressional investigator ever prosecuted the case he compiled. The US Attorney and the special prosecutor always did. Unless you're privvy to info I've never seen. btw...why DID Poppy Bush have to pardon all those people?

[molly]

126. Bush and Dean's grandmothers were close? I never knew that

how did that happen?

[blm]

131. Parts of their families share similar Wall Street

backgrounds, and ran in the same circles. I'm not certain, but, Dean's dad was a Republican wasn't he?

[molly]

135. It only counts of he was S&B

:silly:

[Egnever]

86. NCLB

Kerry voted for NCLB and is supportive of it, while Dean opposes this unfunded legislation that is only hurting our schools and children.

NCLB requires that 100% of children pass state mandated testing...now that's just unreasonable, given special education and ESL students. There are many other things wrong with NCLB, but that's one part of it. I'd vote for Dean on that issue alone.

[molly]

98. Are you Dean supporters in this for the long haul or did you

sign up on DU JUST to support Dean?

[Ripley]

107. There you go.....

In a previous post you accused TLM of fighting "dirty." Then here you are insulting me!? What is that about?

I've been with DU since last summer. I didn't know who Howard Dean was at that time. Why wouldn't we stick with our candidate of choice?


Most of us Dean folks have clearly stated we will support whoever gets the nomination. But don't expect us to not support him now!

sheesh.

[molly]

114. Great! So we can count on you when Kerry wins the nomination?

[Ripley]

117. Yet, I rarely have heard a Kerry supporter

say we could count on them to vote for Dean when HE wins the nomination.

Just an observation.

[molly]

119. I will - I've always said that - I don't dislike the man - I just don't

think he's got the goods.

[killbotfactory]

108. Are you Kerry supporters in this for the long haul or did you

sign up on DU JUST to support Kerry?

[Adamocrat]

125. A year or so...

I've been actively posting at DU for the past year (meaning 12 months - prior to Dr. Dean's candidacy). Prior to that, I just lurked. I don't like getting involved in threads due to the nasty tone many often take. G*d willing, I'll someday make it to the 700 Club so I can find out what's really going on behind the scenes with those evil bastages.

-A

[baby_bear]

109. 'menial?' I don't think so.

minor or trivial, perhaps, but not menial.

s_m

[Nicholas_J]

128. Taxation

Kerry is a strong supporter of a progressve taxation, and his legislative record is for voting AGAINST tax cuts.

All we have is Deans word for what he will do as president is his word, as Dean gave a number of income tax cuts, threatened to veto any attempt at raising taxes on the rich,and would only accept consumtion tax increases to save or fund programs.

Deans record on taxation is far poorer than his presidential campaigning is.

An with Dean, all we can go on is his record as goveror.

[Larkspur]

129. Dean has a vibrant campaign that is exciting new voters

to the political process and his Meetup campaign is like a Political Science 101 class to get these new voters, most who are new to the process, to became active participants in the democratic process.

Dean's purpose isn't only just to win the White House but to rejuvenate participatory democracy and increase a voter base that not only could put him in the White House, but bring along some Democratic senators and representives to help offset the Rabid Republicans, who are killing our democracy.

Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman, and Graham are following the same old script that worked 10 years ago with Bill Clinton, but is out of date in this Age of Connectedness.

[newsguyatl]

130. ouch!!

the tension is here is THICK (as kerry's hair) lol, just kidding...

but seriously, folks, i get so offended when people talk about how short dean is because in a picture i have of him and me standing beside each other, we're the same height :-(

lol

[molly]

133. How tall are you? Don't be offended

[molly]

134. I'm an OLD voter - many-many-many years and I'm not excited

at all about Dean. Is this 2nd shift?

[indigo32]

136. obviously you are working a double

*

[molly]

137. I'm not working - what's a double?

[indigo32]

138. Double shift

I was being facetious... as you were implying Dean supporters are here for pay. Just like you like to imply we all came over in the last month.

[molly]

139. Did you come here specifically to promote Dean?

pay never entered my mind. But there are many "newbies" that are Deanie boppers - young and enthusiastic and new to the election process.

[indigo32]

141. First of all NO

second I resent the implication, as do many others here and I think you know that, because you've made it many times before.

I came here right before the 2002 elections.

[molly]

142. There are many Dean proponets here that have completely

turned off many people. I'm not talking about you. But, these people are on a MISSION to discredit every other candidate and I ABHOR that. There was a point in time where I may have supported Dean - no longer - mostly because of his people on this board. They are obnoxious and irrational and pushy.

For the longest time, I refused to get into this. About 2 days ago, it got so bad that I am now fighting back and NOONE on the face of this earth will ever make me a Dean supporter. I got REALLY turned off.

on edit - it seems to me that they are taking the pug strategy - preemptive strikes at the other candidates

[Ripley]

143. Look in the Mirror!

Oh my. You are now accusing us of being moles!

Kerry strategists are as ugly towards Dean as the few, and I repeat the few you may be talking about.

I have never attacked Kerry, unless you consider calling him "boring to listen to" an attack.

I have never heard a DUer say "NOONE on the face of this earth will ever make me a Dean supporter" where you substitute Kerry for Dean. Yet you guys say it's the Dean supporters who are "Dean or no one!"

On edit: I HAVE heard that statement, but by Kucinich or other candidates.

[molly]

144. I will not support Dean, but I will vote for him if he wins the

nomination.

[Forkboy]

150. Molly,who the fuck are you

to keep questioning why people are here at DU?

[robbedvoter]

140. Simple: Dean opposes bush

And, no, I don't have a candidate yet, but I'll pick one from the actual opposition. ("Opposing war and tax cuts will lead the democrats nowhere " - Joe Lieberman - maybe you should ask what are the differences between Kerry and Lieberman)

[Coffee Coyote]

146. not by much

Putting a New Englander on the ticket for the Democrats is a concession of defeat next Fall. You can be assured that no matter which ideological stripe their supporters OR detractors paint them with, the conservative media will have a field day with demonizing them as "liberals" and bringing up Dukakis stories. You can trust the American people to be easily led by the propaganda. I vividly recall the flag factory crapola, the Willie Horton smear, the goofy tank photo op... and people eating it up, their most ignorant fears played like a broken fiddle.

Their 'differences' are negligible in the face of electoral history, and the fact that America is perhaps the most conservative it has been since the McCarthy era. So even though Kerry is touted as a tough war veteran, who will "stand up" to Bush, that doesn't mean it will wash with Middle Murikans.

This is not to disparage Dean or Kerry, so much as it is to disparage the voters who will pass either of them up for the bumbling and dangerous mediocrity squatting in our Oval Office.

I do think the Dems can win, but I am sorry to say that none of the candidates at the present overwhelms me, and I have a sick 1988 "deja vu all over again" feeling.

We always pass up the great ones.

[Ripley]

147. Don't "pass" on Dean yet.

The more Americans see him and hear him the more they like him.

Just a fact man.

[Coffee Coyote]

149. evidence, please?

I see no evidence that his positives are up with more exposure.

Please, I am sure you can do better than 99% of GD, where posters make all kinds of assertions WITHOUT EVIDENCE.

Anyway, the more DUers push Dean, the less I like him.