Well, I was right about Clinton, who wants to debate that?

[ShaneGR]

After Clinton made his "move on" comments a lot of my fellow leftists freaked out and smited the man who is the Big Dawg. They claimed he had abandoned us. They claimed he was trying to get Hillary elected in 09. They posted a bunch of conspiracy stuff. Some even said the 911 report was going to be damning to Clinton and he was covering his backside.

I said it was a calculated thought based on the premise that removing himself from the argument took away the Republican argument of "this is just party politics." I said it was hilarious to see Republicans using Clinton quotes to defend Bush. I said Clinton had succeeded in removing the Republicans biggest weapon, Bill Clinton. All of those things have happened. There is something perversely humorous in watching Bill O'Reilly use a Clinton quote to defend Bush with. While the truth about Bush slowly leaks out, Republicans build back up the integrity of Clinton. It's downright ironic.

And I also said the massive criticism of the Bush Administration wasn't going away. WMD Gate isn't going away because Iraq is going to stay very ugly. Eight of the last nine days at least one soldier has died under hostile fire. Three of those days had KIA's of two or more. Today three brave soldiers were killed while guarding a childrens hospital. We don't have enough troops there. We need more international support. 150,000 troops guarding a country the size of California, where everyone has a gun, is completely ridiculous. Divide up the force by division, by rank, by jobs like truck drivers vs. grunts.... it's a friggin mess.

To top it all off, like Watergate, the Bush Administration continues to create new problems for themselves. Whether it's a White House official committing a felony by leaking the name of an undercover CIA officer in order to settle a score, or pointing fingers in every direction except Mr. Bush himself. First it's the British, then it's the CIA, and now it's the Dep. National Security Director. In the next month it will be Condodosentlisten Rice and probably Cheney too.

And Iraq isn't getting any better.

And they have reduced themselves to showing graphic video of their enemies. This isn't going well.

And never again can they turn and blame Clinton. They have lost their sword.

[Ellen Forradalom]

1. The Big Dog is the master of political triangulation

Always keep that in mind. He's mastered Washington calculus.

[ShaneGR]

2. I wish I had his calculator

Seriously.

[jos]

3. Nice Try

But your spin won't wash. Clinton is just looking out for himself and Hillary, who if you've notice has been pretty much silent during this controversy.

He tried to cut the legs out of the Democrats' argument. But an interesting thing happened. It isn't working. He's yesterday's news. Good riddance.

[Pepperbelly]

7. I think you are dead wrong ...

but on our level of competence, both of us are doing nothing more than guessing.

[Cocoa]

14. guessing is right

very wise of you to point out the fact that we're all talking out of our asses when it comes to political strategy.

[chaumont58]

38. What you say could be true, but

a question about this sentence at the end of your post:

"And never again can they turn and blame Clinton. They have lost their sword."

The repukes are not logical, they are shameless, they would blame FDR and Eleanor if they thought they could get anyone to believe them. They will continue to blame Clinton when it is convenient, and quote him when that is convenient. They will lie when the truth would serve them better. One does not get in bed with a rattle snake and expect to be bite free the next morning, or even be alive the next morning.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tomp]

18. dean promptly rejected his advice.

mentioned the niger case upfront in yesterday's demand of the truth from bush.

clinton is old news.

carville and shrum also seem to disagree with you.

[Pepperbelly]

20. Then I guess time will tell whose ...

judgement is better, won't it?

[tomp]

26. i agree.

there's too much certainty coming from both sides of this argument. there's nothing to do but wait and see, and throw opinions back and forth.

[Pepperbelly]

27. thank you...

:toast:

We are still in the wilderness and will not know much until we finish the journey.

[tomp]

28. p.s.

don't think i'm holding up carville and shrum as paragons of knowledge or political acumen (they can both drop dead for all i care). but they do know clinton far, far better than we do and didn't seem to think much of his "advice".

[Pepperbelly]

31. sometimes people differ ...

but the important thing, I think, is that Clinton's political efficacy has far outlasted either of theirs.

Bob Beckel ... now there's a hard-assed Democrat.

[ShaneGR]

41. You are missing my point, READ!

If Clinton had come out and said, "Bush is a liar. Bush made it all up. All our problems are because of Bush." He would have gotten hammered by the entire press and taken the focus of Bush. Instead, he kept the focus on Bush and removed himself from the equation. Good for Dean to skeap about it! It gave him a free soundbite and it seperates him from Clinton. This is good. You aren't looking at it from a political view.

[asjr]

58. Clinton

I never got into the threads about this. I believe you are correct. Bill Clinton knew exactly what he was doing. That is why he is the smartest president we have ever had. He would never hand the Repubs anything that would help them. I appreciate all opinions on this subject. That is one reason we are better than repubs. We listen.

[edward]

82. let's see...impeachment.

Yes, pure political genius. That's showing them.

[Pepperbelly]

83. a shallow non sequitur at best ...

that was an almost suicidal stunt by the gop. There is no accounting for an insane enemy.

[diplomats]

17. Um, jos

Hillary supports an investigation into the intelligence flap. In the early stages of her book tour she made comments to that effect in an interview, even before some of the other Dems really began to give it traction. BTW, I never had any doubt Clinton's comments wouldn't change anything but the sky-is-falling contingent here wouldn't listen.

[JI7]

21. hillary WANTS an investigation into niger/uranium

not true, hillary has not stayed silent. she agrees with the candidates and other democrats. she has also called for an investigation into the niger uranium claim. in fact in one of the same articles where clinton says bush made a mistake, it says how hillary does not agree with him on "moving on" .

[Gin]

71. He has every right to look out for himself and Hillary...

we act like every word we say is gospel...come on folks...there are lots of wrong ideas thrown around here too...he is not a saint...and I don't put him on some pedastal...he is a man..not our savior.

[Pepperbelly]

4. it is stunningly arrogant to believe ...

as rank amateurs, that any of our political judgement is superior to his.

[Ellen Forradalom]

13. Our political judgment is different from his

by virtue of our place in the body politic--as informed, concerned, activist citizens. It is just as good, but focused in a different way and it has a different effect.

Clinton is the ultimate example of someone you'd rather have 'on the inside pissing out than on the outside pissing in.' Since he is, all by himself, an issue, it was important to neutralize himself, and he has done that.

[Pepperbelly]

16. in making the right call for he party politically ...

I would always put my money on Clinton against all comers. Hell, I would even give you 10-1 on Rove.

[jos]

35. Really?

Trust him to make the right call for his party?

Let's see, when he came into office the Democrats controlled everything, state and federal, now they're practically in the minority on everything. I wouldn't trust him for a second to do "what's right for the party."

[Pepperbelly]

40. and the party had been losing ....

for 12 looooooong years.

I think that the 1994 was more about democgraphics, gerrymandering and the craven conduct of the Democrats who would not support Clinton of health care.

Do you have some information that shows that to be wrong other than just your opinion?

[jos]

48. The party had been losing for 12 years?

On the presidential level yes, on every other level no.

They held the House for all of those "12 long years," they held the Senate for half that time, and a majority of Governors and state legislators for all that time.

[Pepperbelly]

49. it was slowly draing away ...

as the old war horses retired and gops got elected. That is why I said a function of demographics and gerrymandering.

[jos]

51. No, it wasn't

In fact, the Democrats retook the Senate in 1986 and by 1993, has expanded their majority. Plus, there were more Democrats in the House in 1993 than there were in 1981.

[Pepperbelly]

55. that is true ONLY ...

with cherrypicked data.

If you take another look at the data, you see that from the '94 electi0on through the end of the 1990s, the Democratic party made steady gains back as well which contradicts your argument.

[JI7]

57. the 1998 elections

also the 1998 elections were very significant considering it was during the impeachment, monica lewinsky etc. many predicted the republicans would gain seats, some saying they would gain 30, 40, 50, or more seats. but the feeling overall was "of course republicans will gain". but it turned out it was the democrats who gained seats. that's why the lame duck republican congress had to rush impeachment. they had lost seats and may not have had enough if they waited.

[jos]

63. "Cherry picked data"?

Since when is the total amount of seats in a year to year comparison "cherry picked." If anything, you're cherry-picking. You look at two elections where Democrats made single-seat gains, which is not unusual after a tsunami. In neither case, did they win back control. They were poised to win back control in mid-October '96, but then Clinton's fundraising problems, brought on by his DLC-inspired lust for corporate money, hit the news. That sunk their chances.

[JI7]

65. i'm not pepperbelly

i'm the one who mentioned the 98 election. pepperbelly was the one you were discussing the cherry picking thing with.

[Pepperbelly]

69. i said 'cherry-pick' because ...

you ignored and still ignore the data from the 1990s that contradict your proposition. In addition, you have a habit of taking a fact and assuming causation for whatever position you are taking. That is specious.

[jos]

76. What data?

That they gained 15 seats back after losing over 50 in '94. I addressed that.

And your argument reminds me of the line, "Other than that, how did you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?"

[Pepperbelly]

84. dismissive tone does not work well here ...

particularly when anyone reading the exchange realizes that you have yet to come to grips with eithre the cherry-picking of data or the specious causality you attempt to apply. Your argument is most like a rooster assuming that he made the sun come up because it did so after he crowed.

[G_j]

5. though,

I was upset with Clinton for his comments BEFORE the war (thousands of deaths ago). When Gore was brave enough to say it was a bad idea,it was of great help and opened the way for other Dems to speak up.

[Pepperbelly]

10. I do not understand why so many here cannot conceive that ...

a fellow Democrat can disagree with their positions without being some sort of cynical traitor to the cause.

It's just fucking bizarre.

[Trajan]

15. Hear Hear .....

Clinton has a right to hold his opinions .... as we do ours ....

Can you imagine a world where EVERYONE agreed on EVERYTHING EVERYTIME ? ....

Now THAT would be bizarre ! ....

I dont agree with Clinton on every point: ... but overall: he was a helluva President, and an outstanding human being .....

[Skittles]

36. LOL

that world would be FREEPER WORLD!

[bearfartinthewoods]

47. if that actualy happened, i'd change my mind <grin>

[G_j]

19. you must have noted by now

that the "cause" you refer to was preventing the slaughter of thousands of human beings, something which is unacceptable to many of us.

[Pepperbelly]

24. does 'many of us' mean that no other ...

positions are legitimately possible?

Are you for purging those who hold a different view from their segment of the party?

Many here do. Of course, those same people are in no position in terms of political power to actually do it and should realize that no one has tried to purge them from the party. Any purging in that direction was self-purging, not the same we-ought-to-throw-them-out purging that they often suggest for others.

[G_j]

29. I said I was upset

with his comments, nothing about purging.

[Pepperbelly]

32. sorry ...

I didn't intend to put words in your mouth (or keyboard) and I apologize.

My only excuse is how many PURGE threads I have seen here and took the opportunity presented by your post to vent.

Take care and have fun.

[Terwilliger]

72. HMMMMMMMMMM!

I'll say

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. Clinton is the ultimate politican

And sometimes he does thing that are maddening, but somehow he always ends up on top.

When it comes to politics the Big Dawg is one of the best.

I caught a bit of FAUX the other day when they were quoting Clinton in order to defend W. Clinton must be laughing his ass off.

[ShaneGR]

11. Last night I could only help but think of what Clinton was doing

Probably sitting back in a recliner, eating popcorn, having a beer, and trying to stop laughing at the Republicans.

[G_j]

12. I'll agree with this,

.."somehow HE always ends up on top."

[tomp]

23. the irony...

...is that you consider "ultimate politician" to be a complement.

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. I respect anyone who decided to be something

and then did their best. We all have our short comings and long comings but for the most part Clinton tried to do what was best for America. He also had a vision of a better world for everyone and he has done more than almost anyone else to achieve that goal.

It is a crime, that in just 2.5 years W has managed to destroy most of what Clinton had built.

[Cocoa]

68. I like good politicians

because they are such an integral part of democracy, and I love democracy.

[nostamj]

9. i was talking to a friend who freaked over

those commments.

I also pointed out that by admitting that Presidents make mistakes, he was essentially challenging * to step up and admit to his mistake (like Clinton did).

of course, * isn't man enough to do that and ends up looking worse and worse and worse with every passing day.

redact the report? SAUDI'S IMPLICATED IN MISSING PAGES is the headline.

do a victory dance on the corpses of the Hussein Brothers? INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE AT BUSHCO IGNORANCE OF ISAMIC CUSTOMS and backlash at home.

big dog knew what he was doing... allowing Dems to distance themselves from his comments (and legacy) while challenging * to be as 'standup' and humble in admitting a personal failure.

[tomp]

22. and clinton's totally above board with saudi arabia?

let's see those redacted pages first.

[nostamj]

30. hmmm... didn't mention anything about that

but, I still doubt that clinton has DECADES of business connections with Saudis (specifically, bin Ladens)...

the expedicted passport program was BushCo
the 'hands off saudis' policy was BushCo

still, if Clinton's hands are dirty... then they're dirty.

but I seriously doubt that he's as mired in saudi-sleaze as BushCo.

[JI7]

34. cia robert baer

that former cia guy robert baer has a new book out on saudi arabia. it says how the whole united states/saudi relationship was huge during the republican, especially reagan/bush years. he details all the connections of individuals. and how the relationship went down when clinton got into office. saudi prince bandar was some big shot with reagan/bush in office, invited to presidential gatherings, treated well etc. but he pretty much went away when clinton got into office. but when gwbush got into office in 2001, the relationship picked up again. i think an excerpt from his book is available online somewhere, it's very good. i'm going to buy the book sometime.

[DoYouEverWonder]

44. Clinton did get convictions of 3

of the al Qaeda terrorists who did the 1993 WTC bombing.

Considering the lack of congressional support for anything Clinton tried to do and the harassment that he had to put up with, it is amazing he got anything done.

Besides it was Tenet, a Clinton appointee who was the one jumping up and down about al Qaeda when Bu$hCo took office but none of the Bu$h people wanted to listen to him.

[bearfartinthewoods]

61. it is impossible for me to believe that whatever started with poppy

and contined with bush was not ongoing during clinton.

[DoYouEverWonder]

78. At least Clinton wasn't in bed with the Saudis

How many times has W had Saudi royalty for sleep overs down at the pig farm? Geez and the repugs got upset because Clinton let Americans sleep over in the Lincoln bedroom?

Besides Clinton was too busy trying to save the economy after Bu$h Sr. lied about how big the deficit really was, that he couldn't rock the economic boat too much if he wanted to get the country back on its feet.

[October]

25. No debate here

I agree with you, and was surprised how many here at DU were ticked off with Clinton after those comments. I thought his diplomatic strategy was brilliant.

He's playing the "former president" card of diplomacy, and he's playing it to the hilt. (He would've lost ALL credibility if he were to keep attacking Bush's every move -- now he's free to take a jab every now and then.)

The republican talking heads now have to eat their words, and sing Clinton's praises. So...where once the republicans were completely unified against Clinton, they are now fractured, hence weakened.

[bpilgrim]

37. "from 1 liar to another" i think its brilliant

:evilgrin:

too bad we live in a world were politicians have to pretend that there is no elephant in the living room. :crazy:

peace

[Khephra]

39. I still think it was a stupid move on Clintons part

A very stupid one.

I'm just glad that it didn't take hold like I was worried that it would. Bush is in too much trouble to be saved by Bill anymore, thank Elvis.

[Pepperbelly]

42. he wasn't trying to save him ...

and if you read what he actually said, that is a long haul from what you suggest to what was actually said.

[Khephra]

46. Um, please don't insult me like that

I posted the original thread on the topic. I think you should know me better by now to know that I read what I post.

[Pepperbelly]

52. then which part of it ...

what Clinton said, was an attempt to save Bonehead? Please be specific. And btw, believe it or not, what you write CAN be challenged. It is a concept called freedom of speech. :D

If you take it as an insult, I suppose that is something you'll just have to learn to bear.

[bpilgrim]

60. Former president accepts explanation on State of the Union - let's MOVE ON

"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are president," Clinton said. "I mean, you can't make as many calls as you have to make without messing up once in awhile. The thing we ought to be focused on is what is the right thing to do now. That's what I think."

...

Clinton told King: "People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/23/clinton.iraq.sotu/

he has a point that we do NOW have a huge problem that needs to be addressed in IRAQ but to encourage that the reasons leading up to the war need not be reviewed is BS.

he is carrying water for the neo-cons and i am glad i am not the only one who can see it for what it is.

peace

[Pepperbelly]

62. it is not possible to argue with anything he said ...

Presidents make mistakes (hint: Bush made a mistake), when he left office, there WERE nbcs that were unaccounted for, and Afghanistan and Iraq are currently cluster fucks.

What was written in the title of your post was a characterization, not a quotation and that characterization is not apt in my view.

I think your view on what comprises water carrying is overbroad and perhaps specious.

[bpilgrim]

77. the kommisar's in town

"Presidents make mistakes (hint: Bush made a mistake), when he left office, there WERE nbcs that were unaccounted for, and Afghanistan and Iraq are currently cluster fucks."

and the inspectors were sent in, none were found, they wanted more time, many insiders and outsiders said they aren't an imminite threat, forged and 'sexed up' documents and arguments for war, all to justify the first test case for the new specious PREVENTIVE WAR doctrine and even today the evidence shows we did NOT have a strong intelligence case for i.e. still 0 WMD in iraq.

"What was written in the title of your post was a characterization, not a quotation and that characterization is not apt in my view."

exactly, it is the most widely accepted interpertation and helps to prove our point, ahem... hows it feel to be on the fringe :evilgrin:


"I think your view on what comprises water carrying is overbroad and perhaps specious."

of course you do though that doesn't make it so and with you failing to actually use ANY part of his quotes to back up your 'argument' is even more telling.

like i said before the BEST we can hope to gain from this is the sentiment of 'from 1 liar to another' it certainly is understandable. :evilgrin:

:hi:

peace

[Pepperbelly]

85. nope ...

what I did was characterize the remarks as they were actually made, not with value judgements added.

Those cost extra.

[Khephra]

66. Um, where did I say that no one can challenge what I wrote?

I just said that telling me to go back and read a news article that I posted is insulting, and I asked you (notice the word "please") not to insult me, using my own freedom of speech.

I used saved in the sense that Bush would be let off the hook by Clinton's comments, not that Clinton was trying to save Bush personally. Clear now?

[Pepperbelly]

70. absolutely and ...

if I offended, I apologize.

Now, I do believe that your view that Clinton's remarks 'save' Bonehead is inaccurate. I think what it did was actually put Bonehead in the position of either doing what Clinton said (ie admit a mistake and deal with the mess he's made in 2 foreign countries and the good old USA) or to not do so, thereby looking like the arrogant and ignorant prick that Bonehead truly is.

[Khephra]

74. I hope you all are right, I really do

I'd be more than happy to be on the wrong side in this case.

(And thanks for the apology. I shouldn't have expected you to know that I posted the original thread, and I apologize for that too. ;-) )

[bpilgrim]

56. it may help us with via 'guilt by association'

:evilgrin:

but seriously, for clinton to try and provide cover for these war crimminals is inexcusable.

i'd prefer to see him hammering home the need to have the UN take over NOW.

that would have been much more effective and helpful.

makes you wonder about that popular claim/discovery that there is 'not much difference between the two parties leadership'

peace

[caledesi]

43. Brilliant! You were right then and you are oh so right now.

I remembered your post sgr, and I for one said that Clinton is always 3 steps ahead of everyone (that's why the repugs hated him) and I thought that when heard his comments. "Hey, :WTF:....then I realized, there is a "method to his madness" and it AINT'T to help *.

Excellent. Clinton is a master politician. Let no one forget that.

[ShaneGR]

45. Hehe

It's so twisted only Bill would have considered doing it.

[opihimoimoi]

50. He the MAN

Sumpthin the Bush guy will never be

[caledesi]

79. "Slick Willy" lives up to his name....the beauty of it! n/t

[KG]

53. i guess it's true, you are a GENIOUS!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

59. SGR . . . you are probably correct.

But, a small voice in the back of my head is still telling me that he just MIGHT have been trying to help Hillary.

[LiberalLibra]

64. I was also one who defended Clinton saying he was being tactful and......

....diplomatic but he was also ripping Bush/Cheney a new one. Doesn't it feel good when we are right????

[caledesi]

80. I rememer your post as well LL and you were RIGHT-ON!

[Sophree]

67. I think you are right, sgr

It sure took the wind out of their sails.

I still think that WJC would have gone into Iraq if his Presidency had not been shut down, but that he would have gotten an international consensus and gone with the UN.

[retread]

73. All I can say about Clinton is "Lani Guinier."

*

[JNelson6563]

75. I'm inclined to agree with you

I caught Blob Nofacts quoting Clinton to back up the Simian and it was a delightful moment. haha

I think Clinton has completely neutralized himself in this. I don't believe for a second that he seriously thought the Team Bush lies would be swept aside at his command but he is on record as having suggested it and NOT encouraging the ensuing ruckus.

The Freepers and Dittoheads hate Clinton with a passion and the neo-cons swept into and have held power with a message of hate and derision. Bravo for Clinton not serving them up a perfect target/scapegoat on a platter.

Julie

[caledesi]

81. Now we really can see how Clinton is a genius.

Yeah, he was a Rhodes Scholar (only about 20 people/year get this chance)....and *, let's see...thru Affirmative Nepotism, he kinda graduated from Yale and Harvard. So why is he so illiterate?

Take that all you freepy anti-Affirmative Action people.

[Pepperbelly]

86. I would purely HATE ...

to play poker or chess against the son of a bitch.