Impeachment is NOT an option

[Chicagonian]

I honestly feel that it's long past time to put the Niger uranium story in the holster- it's not gaining any traction with the public, and gives the repukes ammunition to accuse the Dems of being "petty"(I know- war is not a petty thing- but it's just not raising the hackles of the electorate) rather than being seen as 'beating a dead horse' we should shelve the story for now, to be used later, during the election campaign.

Thr Repukes control both houses of congress- It's going to take something remarkable to oust the figurehead that they've succeeded in installing in the white house. And with The Junta filled with "loyal soldiers" ready to fall on their swords, or jump on a journalistic grenade to save their creation.

We need to keep our eyes on the prize- November 2004. Nothing is going to oust them before then, and any effort to do so is just wasted time, money, and energy.

[Trajan]

1. I think this position is weak ....

EVERY gun should be unholstered ....

Its time to fight back, not turn tail and run because everyone isnt agreeing with everything right away ......

Grow a spine .....

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

12. you must be kidding

50% of the population is too apathetic to vote- they get really tired of the constant partisan battles and squabbling over every little thing.

So they WILL vote if there's only one party? Sounds communist to me! :eyes:

Now, another thing, LYING in the fucking STATE OF THE UNION address would HAVE to be the worst infraction a president could commit. You call it "every little thing"??????

Bill Clinton was impeached on MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH less.

[Chicagonian]

14. Have you even been paying attention?

this issue is getting us NOWHERE, fast with the general populace.

we're going to end up being percieved as a bunch of partisan chicken-littles.

[Trajan]

21. This assertion is patently FALSE !

These collective arguments ARE going somewhere ...

They are leading DIRECTLY to Shrub's reduced polling numbers and doubts of his veracity ....

Furthermore: .. those who merely HEAR of 'impeachment', even if they dont agree with such an action, are MORE likely to listen to the individual subject areas to either support and refute the arguments in those subject areas ....

You dont have the energy to voice multiple arguments ? ... fine: .... go to bed ... and let the big boys fight for ya ......

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Trajan]

35. I am probably old enough to be your daddy .....

and I would confront you as a father and DEMAND you stand up for your core values WITHOUT moderating your convictions to remain 'non partisan' ....

THIS board is made of PARTISANS .... and we demand an ACTIVE engagement of our opponents, who 'speak' of nonpartisanship as they RAM our collective noses into the mud DAY in and DAY out .....

No .... simply tossing away issues like the Niger Report and the other LIES is not an option for us 'partisans' ..... We STRONGLY disagree with the direction this nation has taken since January 2001, and if we have to BITE SCRATCH AND KICK to be heard: ... then so be it .....

If you are interested in BI Partisan approaches to politics with the Boy King and his corporate stooges: .. then you are on the wrong forum ......

We intend to fight: ..... If you havent the stomach for such a fight, then I recommend you step back, and get out of the way .....

For safety's sake .......

[Chicagonian]

39. doubtful.

fight on, oh brave warrior(he said with his eyebrows fluttering at the manly-man, marching off to battle with the forces of political evil)

ummm...how exactly do you plan to accomplish this most noble of conflicts? you seem to have a lot of your meaningless rhetoric down pat- but what results do you expect, and how do you expect to achieve them?

or are you the type that just fights blindly and without a clear plan?

[Trajan]

45. You are proposing ....

that EVERYONE stop discussing the Niger report, ... because it 'wastes energy' ....

EVEN though it has provided OODLES of traction in the polls and with the attitudes of the electorate against the Bush regime ....

And YOU want to stop discussing it .......

WHY ? ...

WHY does this smack of GOP apologia ? ....

WHY do you wish us to be 'non partisan' with an EXTREMELY partisan pResident of an EXTREMELY partisan party ? ....

Honestly ..... do you think that the 'head in the sand-get along by going along' approach is going to work this time around ? ...

No ..... No no no and NO ! ......

IF you havent a desire to stand up for your 'partisan' beliefs, then you havent a philosophical basis for dissenting against its antithesis .....

You dont seem to understand this: .. > Just by TALKING of impeachment, it plants seeds of doubt into the minds of millions of former 'believers in the faith' ..... Impeachment doesnt have to be ABSOLUTELY viable to have a desireable effect .... it doesnt have to LEAD to impeachment, but only in the DOUBT of the veracity of the administration .....

The Niger Report is NOT alone: .. the claims of the Aluminum tubes, the 'chemical trucks', the ties to Al Qaeda, the imminence of an attack against US interests by Iraqi WMD's ... IE ALL the supposed assertions regarding the 'case for war' are now beginning to look like chopped liver to MANY americans who formerly 'trusted' this administration to 'tell the truth' .....

ALL of this 'doubt' has been buttressed by the admission BY THE WHITE HOUSE, that the Niger report was INDEED forged ...... and now the PROCESS of verifying intelligence claims can NOW be extended to the other assertions used by this cabal to justify war ...... ALL the other points used in the case for war have become extremely doubtful because of this admission ....

You say the American people are convinced that overthrowing Saddam Hussein was a good thing ..... and I am inclined to agree with that assertion myself .. it IS a good thing to overthrow vicious Stalinistic tyrants, ESPECIALLY those who were good friends of the GOP only 13 years ago .....

Its also nice to drive a nice new car: .... but would it be right to STEAL that car to do so ? .........

Look: .. if you ARENT INTERESTED in indicting this MISadministration for its failures and missteps, and you generally AGREE with the direction this country is in: .... then you havent any reason to vote againt George W. Bush in 2004 ..... and you havent any reason to form arguments against Bush and the GOP holding power ..... and perhaps you might STOP using arguments against them ......

Dont ask us to do the same: .. we ARE partisans, we DO reject this administration of dangerous numbskulls .... we will not stand down because you feel uncomfortable about doubting the truthfulness of George W. Bush and his henchmen .....

[Chicagonian]

48. what do you propose?

"...Look: .. if you ARENT INTERESTED in indicting this MISadministration for its failures and missteps, and you generally AGREE with the direction this country is in:..."

first off- where did I ever say or even imply that I generally AGREE with the direction this country is in...? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

second- how exactly do you propose "indicting" this mis-administration?
in what court?
by whom?
to what ends?

remember- it's best to have an exit strategery before jumping blindly into a conflict.

[Trajan]

66. I propose ....

That you read ALL the other posts that OPPOSE your call to 'lay down our arms', and learn why .....

1) The days of bipartisanship are OVER ....... fool me once, shame on you, fool me TWICE, shame on ME ! ....

2) Talk of impeachment is JUST that: .. talk ...... it isnt intended to ABSOLUTELY lead to imminent impeachment; .... But it WILL reveal the various subterfuges used by this MISadministration to propogate UNJUST war by misleading the american people, and the people's representatives in congress .... WHY stop this talk ? .... it has an impact that converts those at the margins .....

3) The Niger Letter is forged; it was wrongly and KNOWINGLY used; this has been admitted by the WH; it is representative of the other false claims made by the WH to make the case for war: .. nearly EVERY assertion by the WH stinks to high heaven ..... and YOU want to stop talking about it ......

I propose: .. you simply admit your 'stratergy' is wrong ..... and then you join the local DEMOCRATIC party organization to help rebuild a mighty grass roots voter movement to unseat these vicious heathens ....

And DONT forget to tell ALL of those people how the GOP lied to them .........

[Chicagonian]

71. just what I figured-

you've got nothing. but bluster...

no feasible plan to do anything except running in circles shrieking about how the sky is falling.

I actually never expected anything more...

thanks for that.

[Forkboy]

81. I see bluster,but it isn't from Trajan

he gave you a thoughtful answer,you responded with junk.

[Chicagonian]

85. he didn't answer the question posed.

no matter how thoughtful you thought he was, if the issue isn't addressed, all you're showing is...bluster.

Nobody here is providing a realistic way that all this Niger/uranium crap is going to lead to impeachment.
I'm not saying to ignore the issue...I'm saying to save it- and let the stuff come back up during the campaign, when people might actually be paying attention. the public is as aware of the issue as they're going to get right now.
save it, and use it in conjunction with all the other items in the Junta's patterns of deceit(even more are sure to come), to make one grand convincing case as to why the guy no longer deserves the job.

droning on endlessly about each issue that pops up gives the Junta the opportunitty to trivialize it in the minds of the public, and portrat the Democratic party as the constantly braying donkey...and dumbya isn't going to die the death of a thousand cuts when he's surrounded by loyal staffers with steptic pencils at the ready.

and since the repugs control both houses of congress and the major media, nobody is coming up with a realistic roadmap for getting from Niger to impeachment prior to the November 2004 election.

[charlie]

44. Iran Contra amounted to little

just as much from tepid efforts from senior Democrats to pursue it as it did from Republican resistance. Lee Hamilton said publicly that it wouldn't be good for the country to be put through another presidential impeachment drama and consequently often took administration officials at their word instead of investigating. George Mitchell spent a lot of time in a book he wrote later with William Cohen patting himself on the back for having averted such a crisis.

[alfredo]

49. Reagan was a 'kindly' father figure

loaded with charisma. Bush is not. Reagan was good on the offense and defense. Bush is good on the offense, but weak on defense.

We can wear them down by making them answer one charge after another. Stick to the truth. Do not sink to the Republicans' level.

[Chicagonian]

51. no, bush isn't a father-figure...

he's a drinkin' buddy, and fellow simpleton.

remember- think about how stupid and uninformed the average American is...and realize that at least half the population is dumber than that.

[diplomats]

95. Actually, Iran-Contra drove Reagan's ratings down considerably

from the 60s to around 50 percent and even lower. I didn't realize that until I saw a graph of Gallup approval ratings of presidents going back several decades. Reagan's numbers really took a tumble in his second term. They were much lower than Clinton's comparatively. That being said, I agree that the Niger issue isn't our magic bullet. Bush's numbers are dropping because of the continuing troop deaths in Iraq, the bad economy and the fact we haven't found WMDs. Bush's credibility has taken a hit but we can't put all our eggs in the Nigergate basket.

[kayell]

59. Have you been reading the news at all?!!

The Niger/SOTU story is not only out there still, it has branched and rebranched into dozens of related matters. The lies are starting to be reported. The interest is there. The people are starting to wonder what in the hell we've been dragged into. The media is actually starting to do some real reporting. Why in the HELL would you possibly want to back off on anything NOW????!!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Trajan]

22. Weak ....

Shamefully weak ....

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NashVegas]

2. I'm With You

Why get stuck on Niger, when, now that the press are finally willing to write something negative about *, there are so many other fish that can be fried?

[Trajan]

5. The pan is big enough ....

to fry ALL the fish .....

Why drop your ANY of your weapons ? ....

WHY toss the fish in the trash uneaten ? .....

I think the electorate is sophisticated enough to process multiple avenues of inquiry .....

[Chicagonian]

9. Aaaaahhh...there's your problem-

"...I think the electorate is sophisticated enough to process multiple avenues of inquiry ..."

They aren't.

[Trajan]

16. ENOUGH of them .....

are .......

[Chicagonian]

20. No...

They're not.

Take the partisan blinders off, and take a look around.

[Leftist78]

80. I always knew we were pessimistic but this is pathetic

I'll agree that our populace has been misled successfully before, but the average person is much more capable than you would seem to think. There’s the rub. When you sit down and talk to people one on one, you find that they are usually loaded with interesting ideas, and are generally informed about the world around them, but in groups people invariably resort to mindless sloganeering and defer their own intelligence to whoever claims to lead the group.

I thought democracy was about trusting people to be capable of governing themselves, and believing that the people should have the power. With your attitude, you should be a monarchist. I run into a lot of stupid people who I wouldn't trust with my dog let alone my government, but I believe they are in the minority.

[Mz Pip]

3. I don't

want to see the country go through another Impeachment. However... What I would like to see is Bush pulling a Johnson and not run in 2004, either due to pressure from his own party or from the fact that everything is going so badly.

Impeachment won't happen, but pressure to resign or not run is still feasable IMHO.

MzPip
:dem:

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. So

There are other ways for this misadministration to come to an end. I for one, fully support demanding W & Co.'s resignations, preferably in disgrace.

Eventually, they will have to for the good of the country.

[Chicagonian]

7. Face it, it's NOTgoing to happen.

the campaign season is less than a year away, and the Smirk is surrounded with people willing to take a metaphorical bullet for him.

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. Now that he's turned the CIA against him

I doubt if W will be on the ticket in 2004.

He'll be lucky if they let him go back to the pig farm, to clear brush for the rest of his life.

[Terwilliger]

8. It very well is

It's quite obvious to anyone who has even the tiniest of understanding that Bush is a total liar. Uraniumgate or whatever is just the tip. I would suggest that the "ends justifies the means" defense will tell the American public that its ok to do whatever we want to do in this world as long as we get attacked by terrorists.

If we don't impeach Bush, we'll be bombing other countries in perpetuity. And I don't mean just the Repuke administrations.

[Chicagonian]

13. Impeached by whom? and over what, exactly?

Do you even understand how the process works?

the constant petty partisan bickering is what turns off a big part of the people turned off to the process.

trying to pursue this avenue is a sure loser, and makes our party no better than the repukes who ganged up on Clinton over a blowjob, and the repuke "morans" behind the recall in CA.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. The process requires fair and free elections

every four years.

Since the 2000 election, we no longer know if we have fair and free elections in this country. If you have not been following the scandal, that is coming to light, about Diebold and their hackable voting systems, then maybe you should spend some time around here catching up on the news.


Until Americans can again trust our election system, democracy is over.

[Chicagonian]

33. So...what do you propose?

How do you see an Impeachment moving forward prior to the election in 2004?

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. Bu$hCo will be tried in the court

of public opinion.

With a repug controlled congress and Asscrack in control of DOJ there is no hope of the system working the way it should under the circumstances. However, with 24 hour cable news and the internet, this misadministration will not have time for impeachment when their end comes.

[Chicagonian]

47. and how will that end come?

I say that the end of this Junta will come with the election in 2004.

how do you see it happening, if not at the ballot box?

particulars of the process you envision, not empty and ultimately meaningless rhetoric, would be appreciated.

[never cry wolf]

37. In this country, the process inolves elections every 4 years.

when i was a freshman in college in 1972 and watergate broke my very astute poly sci prof (dr. martin diamond) told us to watch out, this thing is going to thr top. nobody believed him of course, it was just a little break-in story at some dc hotel. well, after two years of "petty partisan accusations by the post" and many of nixons minions falling on their swords it got to the top.

this stuff with the niger yellowcake is just the tip of the iceberg and has laready resulted in an alleged felony (burning of an undercover cia agent) in an attempt to intimidate others from speaking out. with the power these guys have over the media it will not be a quick or easy process to get to the truth and it should start immediately!!! the more we can get out to the public on these guys as quick as possible will just cause their numbers to slip further. remember that he was elected by many to bring "morality and honesty" back to the white house. the sooner we can expose these phonies as hypocrites and liars the sooner the public will realize they must not be re-elected.

while i agree that impeachment is a long shot, every investigation, every resignation, every admission builds our case and damages theirs. there are potentially many to fill the entire time span until the next election and each succeeding charge will lead to more bungling of their stories and cover-up attempts. this is all exactly how watergate started, with a drip the turned into a waterfall.

[Chicagonian]

43. impeachment isn't just a long shot-

it's a virtual impossibility, especially before the 2004 elections.
Instead of going back to watergate, you need to go back to the raygun mis-administration. if the repukes learned anything from watergate, it was how to do a better job of protecting the figurehead.

[never cry wolf]

92. impeachment isn't just a long shot-"

what they have built is a house of cards. thay have pissed off the cia and the leaks will start. once you get on the inside and start unravelling how they set up the office of special plans to sift through the intelligence to cherry pick what they wanted and start calling some of these lower echelon guys in front of committees and judges they will turn on their higher ups. believe me, not all of the repugs are happy with the misadministration. yes, with this congress, the short time frame and the doj in their hands impeachment is a near impossibility but i will settle for embarassment at this point. if some of their higher ups are on the stand when the campaign season starts in earnest people will want a change BIG TIME. the more we can expose prior to that the better.

AND, i do not think the big I is impossible. if the absolute truth were to come out there would be such a hue and cry from the voters that repug congressmen will be shaking in their boots about their own re-elections. that is the only way to do it, educate the country on just who these guys really are and what they are about and force the issue. this is way worse than iran-contra and if we can get them on their heels and get the public to demand the truth they are dead.

[Blecht]

23. My God

You say this: "the constant petty partisan bickering is what turns off a big part of the people turned off to the process."

Don't you understand that this "petty partisan bickering" is just a repuke label for democracy? The alternative is one-party control - like Soviet-style communism.

You've been listening to too much cable news propaganda.

[Terwilliger]

25. lying

in the State of the Union address....that is PURPOSEFULLY FALSE STATEMENTS MADE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC...YOU KNOW...THE GOVERNMENT.

Now, why you continue to pursue your amelioration of this outrage I don't know.

[Chicagonian]

30. technically, he didn't outright lie.

and with an entirely republican-controlled congress, how do you expect any impeachment effort to move forward?

It's a complete waste of energy, and will just end up diluting the effect that the stories could have at election time.

[Terwilliger]

36. technically? is that like "technically, Bill Clinton didn't lie"?

Technically, he knew that the uranium report was wholly discredited. It should not have appeared in the state of the union as a political (or otherwise) justification for engaging in the war, which was illegal in the first place. There is no question that Bush's entire political motivation since 2000 has been a conquest of Iraq.

The Cheney energy papers prove it.

The Republican platform proves it.

They have been lying to the American people so that thy could get their war.

Insofar as trying to get an impeachment? You have John Kerry stand up in the Senate and call Bush a liar and a traitor and see what happens. I think the American public's demand of a full accounting will get the Pukes over their trifling party loyalty. They'll have to impeach if people demand it.

[Chicagonian]

50. And...do you honestly see this happening?

You have John Kerry stand up in the Senate and call Bush a liar and a traitor and see what happens...

when/how exactly do you see this happening, and can I have the Zamboni job in hell when it does...?(I have behind-the-wheel Zamboni experience)

[Terwilliger]

54. well...there's the rub

if we had an opposition party in this country, things might be very different indeed

By lying and carrying out American government policy in furtherance of that lie, the credibility of the US is in total question by the world community. They may never listen to us again, even when we ACTUALLY have a case against someone. Too bad there was no one to stop all this mess last year, but they could make amends by standing up now and calling bullshit on Mr. Bush.

THAT (of course) depends on whether or not they disagree (per Mr. Clinton)

[Chicagonian]

58. no...it's not the rub, it's the POINT of what I've been saying.

short of Dumbya being caught in something INCREDIBLE, an impeachment is not going to happen, and is a wasted effort that makes those that persist in pushing it seem like a bunch of chicken littles out of touch with reality, and causes others to not pay attention to the message when it actually matters.

[Leftist78]

84. What about the falling poll numbers?

I tend to agree that impeachment won't happen, but that's not the reason we keep harping on the lies Bush tells. The numbers are falling because people are starting to question his credibility. The mainstream media is finally starting to raise the right questions, the more they do that, the better it is for our chances in the coming election. The more we poke and prod, the more lies that come out, the more we make the rest of the American people question his credibility. I can't believe you don't see how this helps us it 2004.

[Chicagonian]

86. Ummmm- the title of the thread is-

IMPEACHMENT is not an option.

what I'm saying is that to constantly call for impeachment over the niger/uranium story is pointless. It's gotten as much traction as it's going to get, and it's time to ease back on it, and find another issue to sway the public to our side.
the niger story will only bring the numbers down so low...probably not even below 50%.

[Leftist78]

89. I know the title of the thread

and I have read all of your posts, and if I didn't know better I'd call you a Republican. You claim that the whole thing is a waste of energy, and have been doing everything you possibly can to convince the rest of us that it's not worth pursuing. I find your motives highly suspect, but leaving that aside, I think most of us here believe that any opening we have against dubya and his regime should be exploited, and when a president lies in the state of the union address that's an opening for the opposition.

I also don't know where you get your ideas about polls from, but without any research to support your conclusions, you're just guessing about where his numbers are going to go, and as they say, your guess is as good as mine.

[Chicagonian]

90. constantly calling for impeachment over each misstep-

makes those that do look as petty as the repukes that pursued it against Clinton, or the CA repukes looking to oust Gray Davis.

I never said to just ignore this, or any other issue...my point is that we have to realize when we've taken each story as far as it will go for the time-frame the story occurs in. to harp on it beyond that point only serves to lessen it's impact when it's needed as part of the campaign strategery.

[Leftist78]

91. you're forgetting that those have worked

The Republicans impeachment of Clinton damaged his credibility to the point that Gore distanced himself from him during the election, which was a huge boost to Bush's campaign. The thing against Gray Davis is working and may put a Republican in the Governor's seat.

I think persistence will pay off the same way it did when the conservatives did it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

98. If it had NO LEGS, the story would have gone away days ago

Dems aren't keeping it in the press. Reporters are.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chicagonian]

17. It's not enough to bring him down.

because the fact tha Sadaam is out of power is seen as a good thing by a vast vast majority of the electorate.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chicagonian]

29. over 50,000 died in Vietnam.

even at 3-a-day, it's going to take quite a while to match that.

Our best shot is to concentrate our efforts on the election, that's all I'm saying...the process by which impeachment works makes it virtually impossible for it to happen to Bush prior to the elections.

[Uzybone]

40. Election on what....

so Dems should put the issue of Bushs' mismanagement, dishonesty and incompetence on the back burner? I dont expect impeachment to happen, but that doesnt mean we should holster our guns and play nice. Nice will only get Bush 4 or more years in the WH.
Your talking points do really sound like those of the talking heads on cable news. Pointing out when someone has lied and put our troops and country in further peril is not partisan politics, its being responsible.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chicagonian]

53. no...

I'm saying that we shouldn't run it, or anything else, into the ground so that it becomes meaningless in people's minds by the time the height of the election season does come around.

[Terwilliger]

31. Can I hang George Bush? See, I believe he is a murderer

In fact, he laughs as he recounts his record of murdering people in Texas, so I say we hang him. Why not?

There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a sick, twisted, murdering thug....but he was the same murdering thug that a George H.W. Bush run CIA was willing to play ball with in the 70's because he provided us our oil and other favors. When Rummy went to talk with him in 1983, we knew he was a murdering thug dictator, but Rumsfeld shook hands with him. Obviously, he wasn't so bad.

So now, all these years later, when any number of other means to oust Saddam have been rejected time and again by Bush after Bush, they say "oh, lets go to war and make the Iraqi people and American soldiers pay for our misdeeds."

If you don't see impeachment as a viable option, I don't know what you're smoking. It's time to find out just what the hell the BFEE really is.

[Chicagonian]

34. If you see impeachment as a viable option...

you don't understand a whit about how the process actually works.

Inform us all as to how you see the process moving forward...

go ahead, a simple outkline will do-

just as long as it's realistic.

[Terwilliger]

52. why dont you?

you keep saying its not an option without explaining why its not an option.

high crimes and misdemeanors...why dont you think and outright lie by the president is not impeachable?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[October]

32. The electorate

isn't as keen on the peacekeeping (killing of US soldiers) though, or the unforseeable end to the rebuilding of Iraq.

Remember Watergate; that took years before the public paid attention.

Same with all the Clinton non-scandals that eventually took hold.

(It's also why we see 8 of the same commercials every half hour!)

Repetition of the fact that Bush lied us into war is exactly what we need to be doing -- till it sinks in.

Why do you think the republicans were screaming "Saddam!" and "WMDs!" for months on end after 9/11??? Think back. No one really listened at first. (They were still thinking "What about Osama bin Laden?) The Bush administration KNEW all they needed to do was repeat "Saddam!" often enough for it to replace the "truth."

[Redleg]

38. There is much more to Bush's deceit than the uranium story...

This link outlines just a few...

http://www.fair.org/press-releases/beyond-niger.html

Now maybe you are right that the republican controlled congress will never impeach (much less investigate) Bush but the voters need to know the truth so we can put Bush's ass out of office.

[revcarol]

42. Keep attacking on ALL fronts!!(Some new ones will even come out,

knowing the corruption of this regime.)
Offer POSITIVE alternatives!!

Pointing out that the President and his cabinet have committed IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES is productive, IMHO.

BUT THE VOTES AREN'T THERE, either for impeachment, nor for conviction. Prefer to not waste MY energies on impossiblities.

But others may disagree; feel free to CRITICIZE THE PRESIDENT and POINT OUT IMPEACHABLE OFFENSES.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chicagonian]

60. thank you, no...

I'm not cowering anywhere...

I'm standing tall, watching the chicken-littles make fools of themselves and at the same time, weaken (yes, weaken)the chances for getting the message heard at election time, when it will actually matter.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquart]

57. I forgot. What's REALLY important

is forcing the Republicans to explain over and over and over why Clinton can be impeached for one lie but Bush can't for a thousand.

Because, honestly, there's nothing on TV this summer and it will be so entertaining.

[Chicagonian]

61. nothing on TV?

you need a dish.

[TreasonousBastard]

62. On the contrary....

The uranium story is one of the few that actually is gaining traction.

One of the first lessons you learn in advertising/PR/propaganda is to keep the message simple and relevant. The mass of the populace may be capable of understanding the nuances of balance of payments and deficit problems, the root causes of unemployment, or whatever, but is not interested in long dissertations by academics or gasbag political wonks. If you're going to get traction, you need a quick message-- the dreaded "sound bite." The "16 words" is just such a rallying call that everyone can hang on to. It is clear, simple, and indisputable. It sums up everything that is wrong with the administration, and we should keep up the pressure. As it gains more traction, those on the sidelines will be more amenable to listening to the rest of the charges against this abysmal crew.

I doubt there is any possibility of impeachment with both houses controlled by Republicans, but there is a critical mass building to dump Shrub one way or the other, even by his own side. This is what happened to Nixon. No one really liked Nixon himself, and whatever support he had was either blatantly partisan or for whatever politcal philosphy he was seen to espouse. Watergate was simply the vehicle used for his expulsion.

Clinton's blowjob was also simply the vehicle for his expulsion, but the enemy didn't realize that there was no critical mass of hatred for Clinton, and the effort failed.

Impeachment is not a legal process, it is a political process, and is pretty much ruled by the same passions as an election. While I doubt we could get an impeachment unless Congress changes radically in the coming election, we still have to wedge open the crack that the uranium story gives us. There's an election coming next year, and my schadenfreude would be seeing this pantload going down in the greatest electoral defeat in US history.

[Individualist]

64. Why are you so upset

about the possibility of frat boy's impeachment, and why do you defend his lies?

[Isome]

67. He just repeated...

At least three of the weak deflections I've heard used by the talking heads (like on Faux News or Scab Country/MSNBC) since the Niger story first broke.

That's interesting.

[Individualist]

69. I was being facetious

in asking those questions, Isome. Another DUer questioned his motivation. Based on the contents of Chicagonian's posts, I see his motivation quite clearly. However, I probably should thank him for the laughs I had when he accused Trajan of being immature by starting his post with "whatever" (and he calls Trajan immature????). On second thought, nah, I wouldn't thank him for anything. Incidentally, welcome to DU!

[Chicagonian]

72. please point out-

where I defended, and which lies.

[Individualist]

74. Post #30

n/t

[Chicagonian]

76. please point out which lie was defended and how.

technically, he didn't outright lie. (he didn't...he may have intentionally misled, but he didn't outright lie, did he?)


and with an entirely republican-controlled congress, how do you expect any impeachment effort to move forward?

It's a complete waste of energy, and will just end up diluting the effect that the stories could have at election time.

so again...please point out which lie, and how it was defended
(and please be accurate and specific, false rhetoric doesn't count as an answer)

[Individualist]

78. False rhetoric?

Is that the best you can do? In case you haven't noticed, your condescending attempts to sound superior are falling flat. You also don't seem to have noticed DUers don't fall for spin. At first I found your posts amusing, but now you're simply boring so won't waste any more time on you. Why don't you try playing games elsewhere?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

99. It underscores one of two things. Integrity (lack of) or incompetence

I'll take either.

[DemLikr]

65. Wasting my time arguing with you is NOT an option...

...the Shrub's poll numbers are steadily falling...partly because of the Niger story, partly because of our casualties in Iraq, partly because Shrub is a twit and everyone knows it at their core.

[Chicagonian]

73. steadily falling....someday they may even get below 50%.

I never said to drop the Niger/uranium story...only to save it until the day when it will matter.
And I seriously doubt that the day will come before the 2004 elections.

[HFishbine]

68. Not Mutually Dependent

The "Niger Story" is just part of a larger pattern of lies and deceit. Whether the truth leads to impeachment or a democratic president in '04, there is absolutely no reason to stop pursuing it.

[Blue-Jay]

70. OK. Newbie post.

There are some outstanding points raised on this thread, and I can see the merit in each side. The uranium lie is but the beginning of the news media's willingness to finally begin to feel comfortable with questioning this administration, but it's not the proverbial "smoking gun". Basing an entire campaign strategy on this one issue is ill-advised at best. No, I'm not saying that we should let the matter drop (as Clinton advised. dammit), but instead it should be (and likely IS being) used as a door-opener to the general populace.

After 9/11, the nation as a whole was pissed off and we allowed Shrub & his merry band of jackasses to ride that emotion in order to pursue their agenda of world domination (PNAC, anyone?) and blatanty line the pockets of their supporters. The media, the Democratic members of congress, and my Aunt Flo were fed a line of horseshit and made to believe that any questioning of the current administration was tantamount to treason. Not only were they fed it, they (mostly) believed it. Fear causes people to do funny things, and the Bushies fed that fear to achieve their own ends. Who wants to bet me that the "terror alert" status is bumped up in the weeks preceeding the next election?

Anyhow....

Yes, the uranium lie is important. No, it's not going to seal the deal. Not by a longshot, but perhaps it's (I hope) going to be the first in a long line of opportunities for John Q Public to allow himself to be OK with the idea of wanting to take this administration to task, and hopefully take this administration down.

Should we focus all of our energies on this issue? No. That will be percieved poorly by the average citizen. Should we use this issue to remind people that it's their duty to question the ruling party? YES! It's but the beginning. We, as a nation, are beginning to feel "comfortable" again in our ability to ask questions without fear of being labeled "unpatriotic".

This issue has legs, but it's only the beginning. There are many more abuses of power out there designed specifically to enhance the power and control of the ruling elite. We need to use the uranium scandal as a starting point, but not appear fixated on that issue alone.

I promise to be less verbose/rambling/ranting in future posts. nice place ya got here, BTW.


EDIT: While I was typing, I let my made-from-scratch pizza cook too long. Who wants to join me in a dinner of fresh manhole cover? :D

[ParanoidPat]

75. BWAAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Boy are you on the WRONG site! :evilgrin:

You don't want to play, that's your right. Don't come here and tell us what to DU! I suppose next you'll be telling us to drop the black box story and get over it so we can win in '04 LOL!

IMPEACH
BUSH
NOW!

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[judgegina]

79. WRONG!

Not only do we need to keep talking about those sixteen words, we need to talk about Enron, the economy, Iraq, Sept. 11, Election 2000, the environment, health care, Halliburton, budget deficits, bin Laden, Afghanistan, and on and on and on

[Chicagonian]

87. Did you happen to notice the title of the thread?

IMPEACHMENT is not an option.

what I'm saying is that to constantly call for impeachment over the niger/uranium story is pointless. It's gotten as much traction as it's going to get, and it's time to ease back on it, and find another issue to sway the public to our side. You listed a lot of issues that have been used- but when was the last time you heard about Enron in the national media? or Haliburton?
Once the campaign season is going, the party needs to stand unified behind a cohesiveargument as to why the Junta needs to be removed.
with different segments of the party constantly calling for impeachment endlessy over each issue ultimately it ends up diluting the message for everyone, and making it harder for things to stick when it matters.
winning in the court of public opinion does no good if you don't win at the ballot boxz.

[Pallas180]

88. IS an option and coming closer all the time. Many republicans upset

with the lying to them and the country to get into the
war.

When you have Jay Rockefeller and Porter Goss D & R of
the intelligence committees agreeing and going after
shadow government set up by Cheney and Rumsfeld...with more
expose's to come......impeachment or forced resignation of
Cheney and/or Bush comes closer.

Watergate 2003-04---scuse Iraqgate.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

93. impeachment of bush would give us cheney...no?

[tomp]

94. the niger lies and impeachment...

...do not necessarily have anything to do with one another.

i do not believe that impeachment is going to get anywhere. but neither would i tell anyone to drop it. it is entirely appropriate to call for bush's impeachment. he is a criminal of the first order. if it could be done, it should be done.

and who knows, if enough people hear enough bad things about bush, public opinion might just turn against him, and repubs would have to vote for impeachment.

but if we give up on everything that you say won't get him impeached then we will have exposed nothing about these criminals.

we have an OBLIGATION to expose the criminality of this mis*adminsitration, more than any other administration BECAUSE THEY ARE ILLEGAL. this has never been true of any other administration.

oppose bush at every turn!!!!! no quarter for the traitor criminals!!!!

[tomp]

96. i also oppose the idea that bush's lie-telling nature...

...is not gaining traction among the people. i think more people know he is a liar now than before. i never believe the polls. i never believe the media. i never believe the govt. for the sake of the nation i would advise you to do the same.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

97. Option schmoption. There is good reason NOT to let go of the Niger story

The Niger story basically helped TO FORCE the release of the 9/11 investigation by FINALLY causing the public to question this administration and their integritude. It also FORCED the story into the press that SOMEONE in the WH outed Wilson's wife. IT has put the Whitehouse on the defensive which they HAVE NOT HAD to be since 9/11. It has allowed the conversation to shift to the VERY CLOSE relationship with Saudi Arabia that may have caused CRITICAL lapses in our security and it has FORCED the issue of secretiveness and incompetency into the press.

It has ended the FREE PASS they have been getting. It has made the morning WH press conferences much more aggressive and risky than they have been.

If BOB GRAHAM who is much more moderate than 99.9% of us would drop a hint of the word, who am I to question him.

I think you maky need to RETHINK your position since the Niger story HAS brought up other mini-lies told.

If it had NO LASTING benefit, then why did his numbers drop?

BTW, your advice that we save it till the campaign removes all semblance of an inquiry into the truth and politicizes the issue more.