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jChicago Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:31 PM
Original message
Matthew 25 31-46, Looks like * skipped over Matthew

I find this to be an amazing passage, no matter what your religious stripe, especially the verse about those in prison. When you think of the "undeserving poor" attitude that really exists beneath the laughable compassionate conservatism (geesh, what a joke), one can be certain that not only do they cherry pick data from all scientific venues, the cherry pick scripture as well. Well if it's any consolation, looks like they're going away to eternal punishment.


31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are
blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for
you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are
cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to
eternal life."
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Some right-wingers say private charity is great, but the
Some right-wingers say private charity is great, but the government shouldn't provide services.
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jChicago Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. If Bush was a passionate about the vulnerable ....
as he is about waging war, there would be no hungry people left on the planet.

Yes, right-wingers support private charity, but even a cursory review of the state of the poor in this country and around the world tells you that private charities can't, and are not capable of providing for those in need at the levels required.

And what about people in prison -- we all know the facts about that -- no money for the "truly disadvantaged" but we'll spend tens of thousands to lock 'em up. Vulgar.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. It was the reason countries went to a welfare system.
Church could not take care of the ill and poor. Towns had trouble, if they would, taking care of the old and poor, And God help anyone that was ill, old , poor and black in the South,Welfare was all done for a reason. It also helped to have better cared for people in the town you lived in. It does take a village to do it all. And or all people the Bush's should know this, They have done nothing on their own for a 100 years and have always had their hand in soneone pocket.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. But...
Isn't this a government of the people, by the people and for the people? What kind of government exists in a vacuum, as if sustained as some objectified entity divorced from the very people for which it was created? The founders of our Constitution were MEN, not robots... those whose blood is spilled in defense of that Constitution are also men and women, not robots.

Those who are so indignant about "government services" are simply objectifying government in order to selectively abrogate not only human responsibility but their responsibility as citizens. If their consciences aren't pricked by government picking up the tab for endless war, then their hue and cry over the tab for sustaining the peace only makes them the worst of hypocrites.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. I'm sure Bush's tax return
Edited on Fri Dec-05-03 11:31 PM by Yupster
is posted on line somewhere. I don't know if he's generous or not.

I don't think the verse from Matthew supports governmental welfare-style programs. No where does Jesus ever tell his followers to march on Rome or Jeruselum to demand an increase in the bread dole. He pretty much ignores the government even though the Roman government had a very advanced welfare system for its time.

My belief is that each Christian will be judged on what he individually did to help his fellow man. That's why the Good Samaritan didn't turn the injured traveller over to the local Roman garrison for help. He helped.

On edit - I found Bush's 2002 tax return. He made $ 771,940 in 2002. He paid $ 268,719 in federal taxes, and donated $ 69,925 to charity. Generous? I guess that's a judgement call for each individual to make.

Remember when Gore got in trouble in 1998 when he released his 1997 tax return and it showed of his $ 197,729 income, he donated $ 353 to charity? I bet he never has made that mistake again.
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banana republican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Yes
but who did he give it to...

Don't forget some of delay's fundraising tactics involve non-profits...
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. And Arianna Huffington said that one of the factors that
most influenced her to move from Repug to her current views was that it was so easy to raise funds for museums, operas, etc., among her well-to-do friends (e.g., at lavish "galas" and "benefits") but so difficult to raise funds for the homeless and disadvantaged.
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for posting this.
I don't read the bible much, but I found this passage to be a "good read", as we say. :)
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Alabama's repub Gov used this kind of rationale
for a tax hike on the last ballot. It lost. The piety of some is really heartbreaking.
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. this was profiled on NOW - the unChristian coalition is evil
Edited on Fri Dec-05-03 11:10 PM by Woodstock
The Christian Coalition of Alabama thought the sad state of affairs for the poor in Alabama was just fine the way it is. One guy even said he never sees anyone go without. How low can you go. They joined up with big business to oppose Riley's bill, with shameful misinformation to confuse the largely illiterate poor to vote against their own interests. The bill was defeated. To me this is PROOF they don't believe in Jesus or God. Because if they did, they'd be afraid, very afraid.

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_taxjustice.html

...the lowest-earners - two-thirds of Alabama's population - pay 11 percent of their income in taxes. In contrast, the wealthiest 1 percent pay less than 4 percent. Meanwhile, Alabama's families are taxed on earnings as low as $4,600 a year. Even by the standards of the poor Southern states, this is extreme. In Mississippi next door, you pay no income taxes until you earn $19,000...

Governor Riley proposed correcting the tax burden with a bill so the poor would not pay more taxes than the wealthy... there were moderate Christians who agreed with Riley, saying the inequality of the state's existing tax system was downright 'unChristian.'" Riley said, "In my New Testament, it says that there's three things we should do, 'Love God, love each other, and take care of the least among us.' I think this does that."

"The gap between rich and poor in Alabama, rather than being reversed, is destined now to become wider than ever." Says Sheila Smoot, commissioner of Jefferson County, "I feel a sense of hopelessness more so than I've ever seen in this state. They just don't feel like there's any hope..."
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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. According to Dante, bush* and his crew will end up at the
very bottom of hell. Even at a level below those who have actually
comitted murder,because as Dante points out fraud always precedes
violance!
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Military Brat Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Whatsoever you do unto the least of these, you do unto me."
Another variation. One of my favorites, and good words to live by. I hate the way bush has hijacked religion. Gives a whole new meaning to the term "Jesus Freak," doesn't it?
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jChicago Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I'm going to collect these verses in preparation for my visit
to my in-laws where my husband (and leetle one) will be surrounded by so-called Fundamentalists who seem to have this bizarre blindspot when it comes to the plight of the born. I DON'T GET IT.

I was listening to a segment on NPR where they were dicussing the Repub platform in Texas which is completely controlled by the "Religious" Right. According the positions stated by the Chairwoman:

-- Christ would want us to live in, a filthy, unsafe environment (abolish the EPA).

-- Christ would want Corporate Greed (abolish regulations).

-- Christ would want the poor to go hungry and unsheltered (abolish all forms of welfare).

======
God, save us from your more irrational followers.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. * skipped right over the ten commandments!!!
He practices from the Scottish version.....what ever that is.

It ain't St.James version.
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Notice the only difference between the two --
the people who went to heaven vs. the people who went to the lake of fire --

it's not what they said, what they believed, how they voted, etc.

It's what they did and didn't DO for the weak, downtrodden, and helpless. To know God is to care for the widow and the orphan, period.

In so doing, we become like the rest of nature and serve the whole, instead of ourselves.

This is my favorite passage in the Bible. I've memorized it in several different versions and will soon memorize it in Latin, just on general principles.
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jChicago Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. What are some of your other favorites?
Please share ....
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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-03 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Plenty of information at:
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Liberator_Rev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. To be more specific, Theodoty, check out GOD vs Greed !
Thanks,Theodoty, for directing people to our site, which covers scores of topics from a Liberal Christian standpoint. There are two sections, however, which deal SPECIFICALLY with the issue of the GOD of Love vs. MAMMON, the God of Money :
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/GODvsGreed
&
http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Challenge
.

The former shows what a difference it would have made in world history, or will make in the future if the teaching of Christ and of the great prophets of the Hebrew bible were only followed.
The later challenges people to stop calling themselves "Christian Conservatives" unless they are willing to start conserving and following Christ's teaching.


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Liberator_Rev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. Yupster's promoting the "Christian Conservative" view.
I don't know that Yupster is "Christian Conservative", but he/she is expressing their view when saying:

I don't think the verse from Matthew supports governmental welfare-style programs. No where does Jesus ever tell his followers to march on Rome or Jeruselum to demand an increase in the bread dole. He pretty much ignores the government even though the Roman government had a very advanced welfare system for its time.
I counter this rationale at some length at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/GODvsGreed , but to give you a taste of that answer, the world has changed a lot since Jesus spoke of "Caesar" as a synonym for "the government". In countries like America, Caesar has been overthrown and replaced by "we the people" who elect every public official of any importance to represent us. The welfare of millions of people who have personal problems is too damned important and too damned complicated to be left to the haphazard whims of people deciding who needs help and who is a fake, how much this person needs and deserves vs. that person. Only fools would advocate that we abandon the public school system, the police system, the justice system, the highway system, the defence system, the public health system, the housing inspection system, etc., etc., etc., to a "do it yourself system". But when it comes to helping those OTHER PEOPLE who are REALLY IN NEED OF HELP, so-called "Compassionate Conservatives" say "why the hell should we have a public welfare SYSTEM??? Let good hearted people take care of such matters willy nilly."

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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. Here is info I sent to a friend...
Edited on Sat Dec-06-03 07:27 PM by steviet_2003
A friend who complained that their tax dollars went to welfare mothers on crack and asked why I would support them. I am not particularly religious but I am spiritual and it is on a personal level, not organized. I was brought up as a Christian and from what I got out of it was the Jesus may have been the ultimate progressive. This is a bit long but lots of good stuff I think. I didn't reread the whole thing before posting but Jesus was also NOT anti-tax, "render unto Caesar what is his."


--------------------
If the right-wingers really studied the matter, they'd find they have more in common with Muhammad than with Jesus. Muhammad was a merchant, a businessman and entrepreneur - a capitalist. Before Jesus walked off his job, he was a carpenter, a common laborer - and with his talk of brotherhood, no doubt would have been a union man.

He hung out with the dregs of society: the poor, prostitutes, tax collectors, and finally thieves. Not exactly the kind of person to whom you would entrust your most precious and eternal possession: your stock portfolio.

Jesus revealed his anti-business agenda as soon as he threw the money-changers out of the temple. To the orthodox for whom taxation is government organized theft, Jesus' clear advocacy of paying taxes by "rendering unto Caesar" is a complete abomination. Scholars are still divided over whether the raising of Lazarus was to escape the death tax or an intent to pay it twice.

--------------------

Jesus mollycoddled the poor and went out of his way to condemn the rich. His warning that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a wealthy man to get into heaven was typical socialist blather. The affluent have had to devote themselves to breeding smaller camels and building larger needles ever since.

------------------
Jesus' purpose in life was to do the will of His heavenly Father. Wherever He went, He brought goodness. He never hurt or injured anyone, although He did get angry at others who did wrong. He called self-righteous church-going people vipers and once turned over tables in the temple where money-changers were taking advantage of the people.

Jesus was friends with the outcast of society—sinners. He reached out to the publicans, thieves, prostitutes. He never scorned anyone. He knew what was in the heart of a man (or woman). Just because they were religious did not mean that they knew God.

----------------------

Jesus challenged the Pharisees’ purity system by almost everything he did. It’s no coincidence that there are so many stories about Jesus getting into the everyday dirt and grit of life. Touching lepers, being touched by a hemorrhaging woman. Forgiving an adulteress. Going into an unclean graveyard to cast out demons and send them into a herd of unclean pigs. Eating with outcasts like tax collectors and prostitutes, and drunkards — all of those people at the very bottom of the Who’s Who of the Impure.

So Jesus came to confront the heart of this system — the temple — by driving out the money-changers and the sacrificial animal dealers; by exposing the profits and the kickbacks that the temple elite received “under the table” when he said that the temple authorities had turned his Father’s house into a “den of robbers,” as it’s recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

----------------------

"Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments'" (Matthew 22:37-40, emphasis mine).

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

The counterfeit Christ and his followers have long lists of "do's and don't's" that are preached as "Gospel." And everyone who doesn't subscribe to their legalistic list are condemned. We see them protesting with signs that read "God hates fags," "God hates baby-killers," and "God hates !"

But the genuine Jesus has just two laws: love God and love people. True followers of Jesus may not agree with the lifestyles and opinions of everyone (in fact, they shouldn't), but they will be the first to show compassion to those they disagree with. That's why Jesus hung out with drunks, prostitutes, "tax collectors," and "sinners." He loved people. He didn't love all their actions--and didn't join them in all their behaviors--but He showed them that he loved them. True followers of Jesus are not preaching against people with addictions; they are volunteering at rehabilitation programs at local shelters. They're not bombing abortion clinics; they're working in the pro-life Crisis Pregnancy Centers.

--------------------------

Jesus also had withering words for the wealthy who oppressed--or simply ignored --the poor.

"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort" (Luke 6:20, 24).

Genuine followers of Jesus have a sense of joy and satisfaction in who they are--at whatever "level" on the social or ecclesiastical ladder they may find themselves.

Jesus said, "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete" (John 15:11).

----------------------------

5. His earthly father was a carpenter, a humble hewer of wood with whom He lived and laboured, conforming to our human ways of life, custom, language and living that He might understand and love us better and communicate with us on the lowly level of our own limited human understanding!--He learned to LOVE Mankind. He saw their suffering and had great compassion on them, longing to not only heal their sick and broken bodies, but also to save their immortal spirits!

6. When the time came and He began his life's work, He went about everywhere doing good.--Helping people, loving children, healing heartaches, strengthening tired bodies, saving whom He could. He not PREACHED His message, but He LIVED it amongst us. He not only ministered to their spiritual needs, but He spent a great deal of time ministering to their physical and material needs, miraculously healing them when they were sick, feeding them when they were hungry and sharing His life and His Love!

7. He was so simple and His religion was so simple that He said you must become as a little CHILD to receive it! He didn't preach Temple worship, He didn't preach going to synagogue nor going to church, He didn't preach any complicated ceremonies or difficult rules.--All he did was preach LOVE and show Love, as He strove to lead God's children into the True Kingdom of God, whose only laws are to "love the Lord with all thy heart" and "love thy neighbour as thyself".

8. He had very little to do with the high-fallutin', rich-robed, churchy scribes, pharisees and hypocrites--the religious leaders of that day--except when they insisted on annoying Him with their critical questions. Then He would sock it to them, publicly exposing them as the "blind leaders of the blind" that they were, even telling them that they were like white-washed SEPULCHRES, which indeed appear beautiful, clean and holy on the OUTSIDE, but WITHIN are full of rottenness, corruption and stinking dead men's bones!

9. He was not a mere religious reformer, He was a REVOLUTIONARY! He refused to compromise with the false religious system, but rather worked totally OUTSIDE of it, reaching and sharing His Love with the poor and common folk who had long ago abandoned and been abandoned by organised religion. He never went into any bar with whip in hand, breaking up the bottles and throwing out the bartender. Nor did He ever enter any brothel, beating up the poor girls, overturning their beds and throwing the men out the window.--But He DID make a whip, go into their big beautiful religious Temple, overturn the tables, spill out the money and drive the money-mad money-changers out of the church, condemning them for turning what was supposed to be a house of prayer into a den of thieves!

10. He made Himself of no reputation, and was a companion of drunks and prostitutes, publicans and sinners, the outcasts and downtrodden of society. He even told them that they would enter the Kingdom of Heaven before the so-called "good" people, the self-righteous and religious leaders who re jected Him and His simple Message of Love. The power of His Love and of His appeal was so great and gave such great faith to the sincere truth-seekers that they didn't hesitate to drop everything they had and forsake all immediately to become His full-time followers!

on edit: jChicago, I am adding your passages to my list, thanks for posting!
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Liberator_Rev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. V G , Steviet!
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks Rev
Edited on Sat Dec-06-03 08:38 PM by steviet_2003
Like I said, I am not religious. But I do believe there was a Jesus and that he had some damn good ideas about the way humans ought to behave, as did Buddah, Muhammad and many others. I am not sure he was the son of God but believe he was sent by some higher intelligence to teach us, the core values that I learned in sunday school about Jesus' teachings are as above. (He was against organized religion, btw.)

There is NO way He would vote repug!!!
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