My big gripe with Howard Dean is his tax policy, which would lose general.

[Eric J in MN]

Yes, taxes were ok under Clinton.

The fact remains that some of Bush's tax-cuts are very popular.

Other Democratic nominees are promising to raise taxes on the rich but not the middle-class. That policy could win the election; promising to raise taxes on everyone won't.

Walter Mondale said he would raise taxes, and lost.

Michael Dukakis said he would only raise taxes as a last resort, and lost.

Bill Clinton said he would give the middle-class a tax-cut, and won.

[StopTheMorans]

1. if you're not Rove, you'll realize that Dean is not raising taxes

he's just bringing them back to the level that worked WONDERS under Clinton. These tax-cuts suck on every level, they're not really helping anyone enough to change the direction of the economy, and Dean is the only one willing to risk the political capital to say it.

[Eric J in MN]

3. I know that most middle-class people got a very minor

I know that most middle-class people got a very minor tax-cut from Bush.

But there are people who make millions who could afford to pay more than under Clinton, let alone more than what they pay now.

Saying the rich will pay significantly more could win. Saying the middle-class will pay even slightly more than they do now will lose the general.

[StopTheMorans]

4. it's not a tax increase tho

it's the way they were under clinton! noone's taxes need to go down, taxes on the rich need to go up! after that has been implemented, maybe we can start talking about a real progressive tax system instead of the farce we have now, but you can't slash prices 50%, then raise them back to where they were, and tell people that overall it's an increase, that's just crap.

[Eric J in MN]

6. Reversing Bush's tax cuts means raising taxes.

Reversing Bush's tax cuts means raising taxes.

Even if that would be good policy, it's a losing campaign promise.

[StopTheMorans]

8. that's the GOP argument in a nutshell

thanks for elucidating it. So we should accept GOP policy just because you say it's "a losing campaign promise"? We should give up our ideals and the way the country should be done to cave-in to what the Republicans want? phsssst, if I were worried about that, I'd vote GOP-Lite.

[Julien Sorel]

16. So his point is incorrect because the GOP make it?

If the GOP say the world is round, must I disagree?

What's another phrase for 'campaign losing promise?' Failing to listen to the voters.

[polpilot]

18. Lay down that bunt Bro man!!!

Dean '04...

[StopTheMorans]

19. i didn't say that

my argument was "if we need to be the GOP to win, are we really winning?" to which i reply "NO!". we don't win if we become everything that is wrong with America, and if you want to become the GOP just to win, then I don't want any piece of your vision of America.

[Julien Sorel]

41. That's your 'argument' after prefacing it with

comments about 'That's the GOP argument in a nutshell,' or words to that effect. But whatever.

No one wants to 'become like the GOP just to win.' But as has been pointed out, a promise to raise taxes has gotten this party crushed in three relatively recent presidential elections. Can we be Democrats without promising to raise taxes, or is that a sine non qua of Democratic values?

Something tells me that if Dean dropped the raising taxes part of his speil tomorrow, almost every single one of his followers would jump up and down screaming about how brilliant it was. Just a guess, of course. Just a guess.

[JanMichael]

30. Since your "I hate him" comment...

...I can't take your anti-Dean comments seriously anymore.

That was sick. Unless of course he stole your girlfriend years back or took your lunch money in 4th grade...

[Julien Sorel]

39. I'm sorry, saying 'I hate Dean' is sick?

In what way is hating Dean different than hating Bush? Or does hating Bush also make one sick? What about Sharpton? Lots of people here obviously hate Sharpton. Is that sick? What about Lieberman? Is hating Lieberman sick?

[JanMichael]

42. Heh. I figured you'd use that comparison.

But:

"In what way is hating Dean different than hating Bush?"

You tell me? Perhaps you've missed the last three years of shit policy? Better yet: There's an obvious difference in the two. I'm sure you can admit that? Either that or you're making a terrible "Apples to Dirt clods" comparison. Bad move.

"Or does hating Bush also make one sick?"

It's a "Team" thing. Or perhaps Ideological issue, one based on Actions. Or perhaps a difference between believing in the New Deal Amarica v. the Corpo Fuedalism of Bush?

"What about Sharpton? Lots of people here obviously hate Sharpton."

Riiiight. I beg to differ. Some may not "Like" him but "Hate" him? Laughable.

"What about Lieberman? Is hating Lieberman sick?"

I doubt that 1% of DU'ers would state that they "Hate" him. Dislike his actions? 95%. Hate? I doubt it.

It's an irresponsible statement, perhaps even sentiment, to express on this site. I'm sure ther FR says the same thing, no?

Did he somehow hurt you personally?

[Julien Sorel]

46. Let's see.

You tell me? Perhaps you've missed the last three years of shit policy? Better yet: There's an obvious difference in the two. I'm sure you can admit that? Either that or you're making a terrible "Apples to Dirt clods" comparison. Bad move.

Oh really? If hating Bush is OK, then so is hating Dean. Because Dean and Bush are two sides of the same coin. I've made this point before, but apparently because Dean has a 'D' by his name, his failings are to be ignored. Maybe in your world.


Riiiight. I beg to differ. Some may not "Like" him but "Hate" him? Laughable.

Several of the Kool-aiders began hating Sharpton as soon as he showed up Dean. On every Sharpton thread, some of them pop up with their Tawana Brawley, why don't you drop out, street thug comments. Hatred? The comments aren't pretty, and the persistence is revealing, but you decide.

doubt that 1% of DU'ers would state that they "Hate" him. Dislike his actions? 95%. Hate? I doubt it.

We must read different Lieberman threads and comments.

It's an irresponsible statement, perhaps even sentiment, to express on this site. I'm sure ther FR says the same thing, no?

If the FR says the earth orbits the sun, must I change my mind about that, too? Not an argument.

[JanMichael]

48. Refer to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=834702

You'll see nothing but anti-hate comments...Yet a few "Pro-Hate" votes (EDIT: BUT NO COMMENTS:-) ).

Go for it:-)

[Julien Sorel]

56. LOL

So if your poll is representative, 27% of the people here are 'sick' according to you.

I think we can conclude that this part of the discussion has reached the end of its usefulness.

[JanMichael]

60. Yep 27% are useless IMO.

Conversation over.

[Bombtrack]

17. no it isn't, the tax cuts will be law, and an increase will be a new law

that's how government works.

And not all of "our ideals" are that the middle class's income taxes aren't high enough

[StopTheMorans]

21. deal with budget problems/deficits/states aid first

before you start talking about "we can't raise taxes". what a crock, we're in the worst fiscal disaster we've been in in most of our lifetimes, and people are whining about "raising" (if you want to call it that) taxes? Give me a break :eyes:

[Bombtrack]

25. Voters will support a raise taxes, but not on the middle class

on the top 2 percent, and on passive an unearned income. There are other ways of raising revenues and cutting spending without Dean's platform that effectivly hands him an election

[no name no slogan]

44. Most polls support this

Polls indicate that a majority of Americans would not mind paying more in taxes if the money was used to improve our public schools and provide universal healthcare for its citizens.

Remember what happened to Dubya's daddy? "Read my lips: no new taxes" was his slogan in 1988. In 1990, he admitted defeat and raised taxes. He lied, caused a big recession, and lost in 1992, even though he looked unbeatable after Desert Storm.

Why do we have to buy into the "no new taxes" mantra/lie? If we are up front and HONEST with the public, we'll win.

[Bombtrack]

47. WE DON'T HAVE TO BUY INTO ANY LIE, RAISE THE TOP 2 PERCENT

and taxes on passive and unearnerned income

Show me a poll that says the voters would rather have have increased healthcare spending and increased taxes more than increased healthcare spending without increased taxes.

you won't because you can't.

[Justice]

54. Please provide Link to Polls

I am interested in reading those polls, thanks.

No agenda here, just haven't seen them and would like to. I have that view (would pay more in taxes to pay for deficit) but I don't see that view expressed often.

I will say that IMO people won't be happy about a tax increase. Heck, people didn't really go sour on Iraq until Bush came out with the 87 Billion price tag - cuz it was about their money.

[Monte Carlo]

20. We don't have to accept it, but we can't fully deny it, either.

Because this is, I'd say, the single strongest hold the GOP holds over the Democratic Party, that we want to raise taxes for the sake of raising them. You can argue that all day long, but if that's what the voters think, that's what they think. Appeals to one's wallet can be very strong.

[StopTheMorans]

24. you make the best appeal to rational thought so far

but, it's not "raising them for the sake of raising them", it's "raising taxes for the sake of righting our economy and protecting our grandchildren's future", doesn't that sound better? and BTW, for all of you who are arguing how "POPULAR" these tax cuts were, it would do you well to look back to roughly this time last year when 60% of americans were AGAINST these same tax cuts you're all touting as "popular" b/c a majority of americans didn't feel that they would help our economy.

[Monte Carlo]

33. I agree absolutely about the need to repeal the tax cuts.

Tax hikes are expensive, but debt accumulating with compound interest can be much more so.

My thing is this... Bush has the Oval Office and the bully pulpit, plus the GOP has control of both houses of Congress and, to put it lightly, more than a few friends in the media. Put together they create a din in the national consciousness that will be very, very tricky to counter. I'm not saying Dean can't do it, but he's going to have to be extraordinarily planned and careful about it.

[forgethell]

61. Only if we want to win

n/t

[Monte Carlo]

7. He's taking a big gamble by being so polarized against them.

You and I know that Bush's tax-cuts were basically useless to those who really need them, like those who aren't pulling in high six-figure salaries. And I think that most people know they got little to nothing, too. But perception can be reality, and right now, that perception is that any instance of something tantamount to a tax-raise is dirty and evil and suicidal. I'm not saying that can't be changed, but it's going to take some really, REALLY delicate handling to pull it off. God knows the Bush campaign and the entire GOP campaign is going to be blaring "THE DEMOCRAT WANTS TO RAISE YOUR TAXES!!!" continually for six months.

[Selwynn]

32. Will I pay more or less with Dean? If more, then its RAISING TAXES

[PROGRESSIVE1]

2. Deab should not cancel the tax cuts for the middle and working...

class people! He would rightfully loose the election and we cannot afford to loose to the Furher next Fall.

Cancel the tax cuts for the rich fat-cats like Kenny Lay and CO!

[aquart]

12. Honey Lamb, WHAT tax cuts for the middle and working class?

Those pennies he threw? Please.

Take it back and pay my doctor bills with it.

[bread_and_roses]

40. If it is pennies

(and I agree...compared to the cuts for the rich and corporations it is) how can it pay your medical bills?

And the refunds were not "pennies" to a lot of people. It's catching up on a bill or a car repair or, goddess forfend, a weekend camping trip.

[xray s]

5. I would like to see him throw away references to Bush's tax cut

Forget running against Bush's tax cut. That allows Bush to make the case he cut taxes every time he debates Dean. Instead, talk about a new plan to make the tax code simple, fair and progressive. Take the discussion into another direction. Make Bush defend corporations that pay no taxes and explain why many rich people think the repeal of the inheritence tax is a stupid idea.

[Eric J in MN]

11. That would be fine, too. Dean has to be able to say

That would be fine, too. Dean has to be able to say that he won't raise taxes on the middle class to have a chance to win.

[alcuno]

9. As of right now, they can't accuse him of class warfare.

He's saying he'll work to repeal all of the tax cuts. I don't know if his position will stay the same or change over time. From a bargaining standpoint, you always ask for more than you are going to get so that the movement is in your direction.

The average American hardly feels as if he/she even got a tax cut (I don't know if I got one.) But they sure know that the wealthy (+200,000/year income) got some big ones. I even have relatives who have made out like bandits and they are not voting for *.

[Eric J in MN]

13. I doubt that accusations of "class warfare" sway most people.

The Democrats should be as populist as possible.

If pundits want to denounce fairness as "class warfare," let them.

The average American won't care about a "class warfare" accusation.

[aquart]

10. No, you won't lose. You'll win.

If the entire tax cut is rescinded (remember you won't have to give back those checks because they were only advances on next year's taxes), the government will be able to pay its bills instead of borrowing. If it can't pay its bills, it will borrow and YOU will pay the interest on the loan. Every FEE will be raised because that isn't a tax, oh no. Well, you already know because that's already happening.

If the government has enough money, then it can share with the states who won't have to further increase your property taxes and other state fees. Or did you think all those increases in your state were unrelated to the Bush tax cuts?

To put it much more simply, pay as you go is a saner, more conservative policy than borrow and spend. And, face it, fella, Bush is a real Big Spender.

(Of course, the more he borrows from his friends the banks, the more interest he can commit you and your children and your grandchildren to pay. When you scream because an unpaved, potholed road ruined your car, or because there weren't enough cops to keep your daughter from being mugged on a public street, or enough firefighters to keep your house from burning to the ground, or when air pollution gives your spouse a chronic disease requiring years of expensive medical care out of your pocket, remember to thank George and his welfare for the rich policies.)

[Bombtrack]

14. Dukakis didn't lose because of taxes

he lost the electoral college mostly because he was a perceivedly typical liberal new england governor known for a particularly unpopular history on a major social issue.

So Dean would ALSO lose because of that and disagreeing with america on the way they support conducting foriegn policy, like McGovern.

[mzmolly]

15. Eric, you may note that property taxes in Minnesota increased

as well as other expenses, so we never got a tax cut. I understand your point however. And would venture to guess Dean may tweek his plan a bit before all is said and done? I support him either way.

[Bombtrack]

22. we've all heard his local taxes talking point

but that ultimatly is a DECISION, not a law, decided by local goverments as they see fit.

I'm sure mondale had plenty of talking points that DIDN'T change voters minds to justify a hike to them as well

[Eric J in MN]

29. The perception is more important than the reality with regard to

The perception is more important than the reality with regard to campaign tax-proposals. Even if people are paying more now, they still don't like the idea of paying more federal taxes.

And while property taxes were raised recently, it doesn't mean that if federal taxes are raised the property taxes will go down.

[bread_and_roses]

23. Those of you supporting Dean's

position on rescinding the tax cuts for the working and middle class ignore two things...or three...or maybe more...
One is that if someone is told they will pay more this year than last, they will consider that an increase in their taxes, regardless of what their taxes were two years ago.
Another is that it is not the tax cuts to the middle and working classes that are bankrupting our states and services, it is the tax cuts to the rich and Corporations. Fix that, and you won't need to raise (yes, RAISE, no matter how you spin it) the taxes on working and middle class incomes.
Another is that Dean cannot promise to deliver health care or any reduction in the various state, local taxes and fees in return for his tax plan.

And more important than all of those is that tax policy for at least the past twenty years has favored the very wealthy and promoted a concentration of wealth among the top 5% and especially the top 1%.

Dean's policy promotes the very false notion that what is good for the very rich is good for "us" too...it obscures the difference between income and wealth and ignores the banana-republicanization of the United States.

And to whomever accused the original poster of using Republican talking points by raising this question, I am about as far from a Republican as you can get and not be an out and out anarchist. Plenty of people concerned with social and economic justice think this particular policy of Dean's is misguided.

[YNGW]

26. Good Post

Don't listen to the people on here saying these things. You're absolutely right. The American people won't hear anything but "That Democrat candidate is gonna raise my taxes", and that'll be the end of it.

Raising taxes on the rich won't make up squat; there's not enough of them. People who say this have no concept of economics. To have any type of increase in tax rates become effective, you gotta hit the middle class. Reason being is that rich people have tax shelters where you can't touch their money, and NO, the laws are not going to change, so let's talk frankly about this. Raise taxes on the rich, they'll shelter it, and neither of the political parties are gonna do anything to change that.

You've hit upon one of my biggest concerns about this coming election year, that is that our candidates are all saying essentially they are going to raise taxes. It's a proven death sentence, and no arguments of "Pay me now or pay me later" will fly with the general population.

[poskonig]

27. You are worrying over nothing.

The advantage is that Dean can promote his health care with the repeal (which most people support, even with higher taxes) and look fiscally responsible at the same time. In addition, Dean can sharpen his differences with Bush on the issue.

Keep in mind that while Republicans will cherry pick minor examples of a small percentage that saved a thousand dollars in tax cuts, most people got a few hundred bucks, if that.

I'd rather see the Dean campaign keep the middle class tax cuts on principle -- I support progressive taxation. I also would not want to take the risk of getting attacked on the issue, but the Dean's campaign apparently doesn't mind being aggressive and taking risks.

[Eric J in MN]

31. In California, the car-tax was a small amount for many people, but

In California, the car-tax was a small amount for many people, but people were still angry over it, and recalled Governor Davis.

I don't think most voters will shrug off a proposal for a small tax increase.

[poskonig]

37. This isn't a matter of belief.

The polls indicate people supporting more health care, even if it means more tax increases, by 65-70/25% margins.

[Eric J in MN]

45. I hope you're right, but I wish Dean would at least modify a little,

I hope you're right, but I wish Dean would at least modify a little, say that he would keep at least one part of the tax-cuts passed under Bush.

Even Dennis Kucinich has said he'd keep part of the Bush tax-cuts.

[KittyWampus]

28. Why Doesn't Dean Just Cut Pentagon Spending?

Not only would it provide more funds for social programs it would help redirect our whole Domestic & foreign Policy.

Why is the current level of spending okay with Howard?

[poskonig]

34. Amen! (answers within)

Your solution is right on.

Dean refuses to make it a campaign issue because he doesn't want to look weak on defense. I'm not sure if anyone besides Kucinich unfortunately has had the courage to speak out about this.

[Donna Zen]

43. The "make want" budget

Clark has said that the Pentagon budge is on the table. He calls it the "make want" budget and the budget he knows best. Not only would he cut it, he knows how to cut it. There are bodies buried in them thar non-bid contracts. Let Tom Delay call Clark "weak on defense." Double-dare.

[Eric J in MN]

35. Dean's answer is that we shouldn't cut the Pentagon budget during a war.

Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate who has said definitively that he would cut the Pentagon budget.

[Donna Zen]

36. Why Doesn't Dean Just Cut Pentagon Spending?

Because he can't; to cut spending it to buck the Pentagon. To do this would mean two things that Dean cannot buy: gravitas, and credibility on all matters defense.

Only Nixon could go to China...words written here often, but never fully appreciated.

That budget is where the money to change this nation for the better is currently stashed. The lock box.

[arewethereyet]

38. you will not win a debate over repeal not being a tax increase

once the genie is out of the bottle it does not easily go back in.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. You obviously don't even know what Dean is saying about taxes

Yes, he wants to repeal the tax cuts. He also intends to reform the tax system to make it more fair for the middle class. The tax cuts you are arguing over start to automatically disappear starting in 2005 anyhow. They are temporary, phasing out between 2005 and 2008. Dean is also giving people a choice...health coverage that can't be taken away, full funding for schools, investment in small business, jobs, a strong economy or get a $300 check along with your higher property tax bill and skyrocketing college tuition for your kids.

I'm a single mother of 4 kids and I never even got one of Bush's checks. My expenses have gone up, though. So all I can say is: What tax cut? I didn't get one.

[Eric J in MN]

51. I'm following the primaries closer than most people, so if Dean

I'm following the primaries closer than most people, so if Dean has a plan for eventually lowering taxes on the middle-class, and I haven't heard the plan, neither have many others.

If Dean wants to eventually lower taxes on the middle-class, why doesn't he say so during the debates?

[Bombtrack]

52. that's not acurate

only the May 03 cuts are temporary.

And all the serious candidates have health care spending plans with more in common than not, and Kerry, Kucinich, Edwards, Clark, and Lieberman, can pay for them without a middle class tax raise.

"full funding for schools" is an awfully ambiguous and questionable claim.

And every politician has a plan for investment, jobs, and a strong economy.

The voters who decide elections most in this country more than any other group got more than 300 dollars and understand that property taxes are, by definition, not a federal responsiblity, and therefor that excuse is rediculous

And Dean objects to you getting a child care tax credit, if you are in fact a single mother.

[FrenchieCat]

53. Yea, maybe we don't know that it's

not supposed to be seen as a tax increase...but after 2 years of having their taxes cut, the voters will see it as a tax increase...and it won't matter what Dean says. That's why it's so stupid to think he can even win with that kinda of platform. You guys just gonna crash and burn. Hope Dean supporters have a big smile on their face while it's happening......

Tax increase....or tax put back the way it was...is a DOA during the general election!

[SahaleArm]

58. Balancing the budget on the backs of the middle class?

How about the $1000 child tax-credit? How about property value increase not increased property taxes? Does he plan to cap tuition increases?

This tactic is a stinker and I'd call any candidate on it.

[AP]

65. His educatioin plan encourages people to go into more debt.

It's a safety net tax dedcution when your payments exceed 10% of your income. You have to work to get it, so it'll mean an buyer's market for labor. And it will mean students will be encouraged to take on more debt.

Also, it's just guaranteed profit for banks, subsidized by taxpayers. Ie, it's a big gift for Wall St.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

50. That's fair

I'm a Dean supporter, but I think your concern is completely understandable. That's going to be a very difficult sell.

[Woodstock]

59. I think you raised a good point, I've been wondering about it too

[Zynx]

55. He'll change it at the convention.

He has an out of this "simpler and fairer" system of taxes. The fairer portion can be spun into steady middle class taxes. That will be his position if he is the nominee and I firmly believe that.

[FrenchieCat]

57. Why wait for the convention?

Why not change it now? or you hope he changes it? Or did he already give you advance notice? Will he also release his "secret" papers? Did he tell you supporters already?

[Donna Zen]

62. People don't take off their coats

in the middle of a blizzard. You believe that everything will fall into place, but America will see it as both a flip-flop and just another politican saying anything.

That is a no sell at the ballot box. And it is not the only problem Gov. Dean has.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

64. Fuck that 'Bait and Switch' Bullshit!

If he has a plan he thinks will work he should stick with it. And it is disturbing that you think he should and will change it.

Kerry has stated plainly that he will keep the middle class cuts because it is the right (and Democratic) thing to do. Either Dean has his shit together or he doesn't.

[AP]

66. Only bait & switch is, bait: "I'm a democrat, switch: "I'm libertarian."

No progressive taxation. Privatization. Deregulation. No gun safety legislation.

And, inevitiably, no victory in 2004.

[IronLionZion]

63. agree, because people are naive

the poor and middle class don't get shit from the tax cuts but they provide a motherload of revenue through their huge numbers. We could easily forego that revenue in order to win their votes. Winning is more important than funding Dean's radical health care plan.

He needs to get some smart economic people on his team. I dunno about covering uninsured children up to age 25, that just wasteful. 18 is old enough. I'm 20 by the way and insured.

Any socialists out there who dream of the socialized health care of Canada should remember how badly that healthcare blows. What good is free health care if you die before seeing the doctor? In America, emergency patients are seen and treated immediately. Many Canadians who desperately need operations will come to the US and the US hospitals will treat them and bill the Canadian government. I've seen it first hand.

How 'bout them apples.