Washington Post article about Dean

[IDUDOYOU]

If you are not a Dean supporter, you know what this article is about.
If you are a Dean supporter, you know what this article is about.
The strategy may backfire in the long run.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47852-2003Jul25.html

I am sure Dean supporters will flood this thread with scathing criticisms.

[molly]

1. I like this line

"When anything's orchestrated, you sort of smell a rat."

[IDUDOYOU]

2. I get that sense on DU, the whole rat line

When supporters of any candidate have the same mantra, they start to sound too eerily similar to * supporters.

Just so everyone knows, I am not sure exactly who I will vote for(but have it narrowed down to about three), although Dean supporters have really turned me off to him.

[molly]

3. Dean was my second choice until

they launched a campaign to flood DU - it too turned me off big time.

[chimpymustgo]

5. Some of this supporters might want to re-think their strategy.

It is turning off far more people that it it could ever possibly persuade. The strongarm bullying is offensive.

[Egnever]

32. So vote for bush!

God you people are amazing

[Kahuna]

54. Excuse me. Has Dean won the nomination?

What do you mean, then vote for Bush? This is the attitude that turns people off.

[Egnever]

57. Not yet !

When he does will you refuse to vote for him because some of his supporters were mean?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. No-You Are Amazing

I'll put my Democratic party bonafides up against anybody on this board. My mother was a Stevenson delegate in 1952. I was a Kennedy delegate in 1980. I shook RFK's hand when I was seven years old. A signed picture of Ted Kennedy sits on my dresser drawers. A signed picture of Bill Clinton thanking me for my contributions to him and the party hangs in my study.

I as well as others at this site have the right to question any of the actions or alleged actions of the candidates and their supporters without having their allegiance to the Democratic party challenged.

Or are you folks going to purge from the party those folks that don't agree with you as that is what you have so clearly suggested.

[Egnever]

64. Not you folks!

Just me!

And if you stand with the person who started this thread in suggesting that dean Supporters should just go away and stop bothering you then yup I dont care if you drank democratic milk in the womb your off base and perhaps your time would be better spent in your candidate of choices private web pages.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. I Don't Have A Candidate

I don't have a candidate in the primaries though I find the intramural competition quite entertaining. I will support whoever emerges victorious from the primaries.

When the Florida primary comes I will vote for the Democrat who I believe has the best chance of unseating Chimpy.


btw, I don't have a problem with forcefully responding to criticism

[w13rd0]

38. Launched a campaign to flood DU?

Campaigns "flooding" DU have been going on since its inception, or maybe you haven't paid attention. In addition to that, there are many members of this board that have been around since its inception. Many Dean supporters who were originally Gore supporters, or just outraged by Bush. I find it rather suspect that there are those who so readily find bad apples and judge the lot by them, and those that take issue with "campaigns to flood DU" that seem oblivious to the campaigns to flood the same DU with orchestrated attacks on a candidate. Would it turn you off to <CandidateX> if the board were flooded with new signups, half attacking <CandidateX> and half defending? That's where your 'logic' leads. Perhaps you should choose a more reliable and verifiable starting place.

The Dean campaign has also gotten a lot of people interested in politics, some for the first time. That they would then find political discussion forums of interest should come as no surprise.

[Eloriel]

82. There is NO campaign to flood DU --

Absolutely none. Most of us Dean supporters have been DUers before we ever heard of Dean.

Eloriel

[Khephra]

85. Damn straight

I've been here since June of 2000, so I'm no johnny-come-lately.

[Forkboy]

98. This has been pointed out to Molly many times

she doesn't care...it doesn't jibe with her thoughts so it can't be true.

[ulysses]

110. add me to that list

[HFishbine]

102. That's me

"Most of us Dean supporters have been DUers before we ever heard of Dean."

[SummerGrace]

12. When anything is orchestrated,

you sort of smell a rat. Well, maybe the press will eventually figure this out - the rats of sElection 2000 have been reeking for three years and it's about time someone fights back. It's time to level the playing field and it's going to be no easy task.

[shance]

81. DOUBLE STANDARD ALERT****

When Republicans whip up their lies and false stories, pit people against one another, start false and vicious and untrue rumors, its gosh, oh those darn Republicans hahaha, or more often than not Republicans smear campaigns are accepted as fact.

While Democrats on the other hand simply DEFENDING THEMSELVES, the press reacts with a <gasp> how dare the Democrats (or in this case Dean)be so aggressive WHEN WE ARE MERELY DEFENDING OURSELVES!!!!

This bogus double standard reminds me how men love when women are pretty and sweet and docile, but the moment we assert ourselves, we are then looked at as selfish, domineering, etc. Seems to be the same type double standard going here.

As long as Dems keep their mouths shut and look pretty, everythings just fine with the press and Republicans.

[Eloriel]

84. Wow -- that's a really good point

We should write the author and say just that.

Eloriel

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. I don't understand

why the bruhaha about this. MoveOn and other cyberorganizations have been asking people to write/phone their Congresspeople for a long time now-probably the first TV comments I heard about the anti war movement was about the Virtual March on Washington (in which I took part). I'm looking hard at all the Democratic candidates now, and I will admit Dean is on my short list, along with Kucinich, but I'm still undecided which candidate should get the nod. So explain, please, why the flood of emails supporting Dean is so bad?

[IDUDOYOU]

7. The tone of Dean supporters

Dean supporters act like * supporters.

Don't criticize our candidate or we will make your life a living hell is the basic message of dean supports. Again, like * supporters.
It seems to me a few people, or maybe more than a few, have gotten this attidude from Dean supporters.
I know of no other candidate's supporters who act this way.
Which is why a dean candidacy for President would really scare me because I think a lot of independent-minded voters would really get turned off by Dean because of the people supporting him.

My basic message to Dean supporters is tone it down.
If you rub many hardcore Dems the wrong way, what will happen with other voters?

[sfecap]

20. I think you are right...

Dean supporters ought to just sit down and shut up.

Knock this stuff off.

Go back and sit on the couch and turn the TV on.

Let Karl Rove send out his daily talking points and just accept that is what the media will print, people will see through the spin, and everything will be OK in the end.

After all, * won last time fair and square.

Tone down that enthusiasm for their candidate, it's annoying.

Politics should be nice and calm and genteel. That's how the rethugs like things, and see what they have accomplished in the last few years! Take a lesson from them.

Quit it. You are rocking the boat. You are making waves.

Someone else will make sure our country gets fixed. You don't need to get all wound up about it.

Everything is just fine. The adults are in charge.

Yep.

:-)

Damn! It's a beautiful morning!

[Egnever]

58. !!!!!

Well said!

Im Tired of lying down. I am here to fight for whats right and so is the candidate i have chosen to support!

Its about damn time!

[MODemocrat]

92. Must I get permission to be a DEAN supporter?

Tone it down? I am a Hardcore Democrat, and I love Howard Dean.

_-_-_-_-_GO DEAN_-_-_-_-_

[molly]

8. I did not come to DU for the specific purpose

of an organized rally.

[Egnever]

56. What did you come for?

[HFishbine]

104. Whaaa!

"an organized rally?" Look, Molly, you really have to understand that, in spite of how awesome the Dean campaign must look to you, there are Dean supporters here who were not "sent" here by the Dean campaign. I don't know of any indication that any such coordinated effort has even happend, beyond you saying so.

I can assure you, on the other hand, that there are people who found DU well before developing an interest in Dean; and we've come by our opinions honestly.

I also like Kerry, and my thoughts about him are, fortunately for his candidacy, not going to change because one of his supporters is confrontational, accusatory and insults me by implying that I'm part of some subversive effort.

[nuxvomica]

6. I am not a Dean supporter but the article was unbalanced

These are tactics in use by the Repubs for years yet there's no mention of that. Why not? Probably because Kurtz is a right-wing lapdog. Dean's supporters are simply following the Repub's lead and going them one better. I'm not sure that Dean is the right candidate to fight the disturbing trends in the world today but I'm glad that this sort of thing is going on and I hope it continues regardless of who the nominee is.

[IDUDOYOU]

9. Just mentioned * supporters in my last post

There is a difference between defending one's position and attacking one's critics.

[IDUDOYOU]

10. And remember

It is not what you say, it is what the other person hears.

[nuxvomica]

16. I agree that they need to get smarter about this

But don't assume that this article tells the whole story. Kurtz is going to skew this to the negative as much as he can.

And let me add my welcome to you, IDUDOYOU. :hi:

[IDUDOYOU]

35. Hey nuxvomica!!

:-)

[liberalnurse]

11. Welcome to DU.......IDUDOYOU

If you are new to the board. Many got new names with the new board...Either way Howdy.

:hi:

[LastRobot]

13. To all turned off by Dean supporters

OK, I really wish you could meet me in real life, as I'm a Dean supporter and do not see myself in the descriptions of Dean I read here and in some other places. I also do not see that attitude in the supporters I've met at Dean Meetups, but I've only gone to the central Jersey one and New York one. I am always open to the possibility that I am wrong. However, it just stinks reading these things about myself that I know are not true. I respect all opinions except those designed to instigate hate and fear (i.e. Republican opinions).

Now maybe I'm walking into tinfoil hat territory here, but anyone ever think of putting together the facts that Freepers/Rove/wingnuts say they want Dean and then some comments similar to those by Bush supporters appear supporting Dean? Maybe their writing style is showing through their deception? Divide and conquer? Or do I need to run out and buy more aluminum foil?

I like almost all the candidates (save for Sharpton who I wish had some elective experience and Lieberman who I just don't feel inspired by) and will support the winner of the primary as enthusiastically as I currently support Dean today. We have an awesome field of dedicated Democrats running, each trying to show that he or she can defeat Bush and turn this country around. There are many good ideas and I hope the winner uses the ideas of the other candidates to make this country a better place than its been these last few years under Bush.

Please someone who does not support Dean for president let me know what you think. Thanks! :-)

[molly]

14. How did you find out about DU?

[Egnever]

18. Are you trying to imply

there some vast conspiracy from deans camp to flood DU?

[molly]

19. Is there - was there?

[Egnever]

24. Not that I am aware of

nor from the sound of it from what you are aware of. And I am a preatty close follower of the dean blog and get all his official emails.

The simple fact is he apeals to a wide range of people. How else do you explain the number of volunteers he has signed up in comparison to all other candidates.

Again he may not motivate you and theres nothing wrong with that at all but trying to assign some vast conspiracy to it because you dont see the attraction is more than lame.

[LastRobot]

33. actually I see the conspiracy as from the right

The conspiracy is not among Dean supporters I think, but among some from the other side who (wrongly I think) believe and hope he will destroy the Democratic party. They promote him but in a very divisive way. I think most Deaniacs are as positive as supporters for Gephardt, Edwards, Kerry, et al. I really wish there was a way for us Dems here to be viligant about observing the opposing tactics without having to delve into tinfoil hat territory.

I guess all I can realistically do is be the best person I can be, and try to respect other people's opinions. It just stinks reading negative things about myself from my Democratic allies...and remember, when you say "Dean supporters" or "Lieberman supporters" you are lumping all the supporters of that candidate under your blanket statement. Words matter and while politics is for those with a spine, it is also easier to get what you want through diplomacy as opposed to vitriol.

[Egnever]

37. I agree

you certainly get more bees with honney than you do with vinegar.

But as far as the dem party goes... Well it needs a shake up cause if the last lections are any indication its failing misserably in the state its in right now. The time for being nice is over. The right wingers have proven that vitrol sells and as long as the dems continue to lay down and take it no matter what garbage is spewed out they are done!

Its time to stand up! Stop allowing the lies to go unchallenged! Fight for what is right or lay down and hope for people to realizze how badly they are being screwed. If the present state of this country is any indication it could be a long wait!

[Eloriel]

86. No, Molly, there isn't / wasn't

There IS NO CAMPAIGN to flood DU or anywhere else. The Dean Defense Force is completely different -- aimed at countering bad press, esp. distortions and inaccuracies.

Eloriel

[HFishbine]

106. Where's the real "conspiracy"

So now newbies are fair game for suspisions of being Dean operatives? If that's going to set off alarm bells, maybe we should take another look at the number of posts made by the person who started this thread. Could be a new Kerry operative, or a freeper, or an A15 lurker, or Karl Rove himslef -- oooohhhhh.

[molly]

107. Tinoire says it best here

BTW I had seriously thought of becoming a Deanie until this....he was a very-very-very close 2nd to Kerry with me

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=83383&mesg_id=83645&page=

[HFishbine]

108. Yeah

I'm a relative newcomer, and it didn't take me long after my first few visits to start to really like Dean. I don't know if your point is that you resent the fact that Dean's popularity is growing (yes, even here), or if you pine for the good ol' days when DU didn't (apparently) have such organized and motivated supporters of a particular candidate.

Since you seem resentful of newcomers and don't hesitate to tell us what you think should or should not happen on DU, allow me to make three mutally exlusive suggestions.

1) Start your own message board where you can dictate the rules and choose who participates.

2) Express your desire to the moderators of this board that they change the rules to create an environment more to your liking.

3) Put your energies into supporting your candidate, instead of focusing on the behavior of others. Dean and his supporters are doing just fine without your critiques.

[molly]

109. You obviously paid no attention to what was said

[HFishbine]

112. Darn it!

I've dissapointed Molly again.

[Forkboy]

99. She's not implying

She's come right out and said it before.

[LastRobot]

21. through Google

Some time ago I put Democrat into Google and came up with this site. I must've just read posts before posting for a year.

Out of curiosity, why do you ask?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I Don't Think Dean Can Beat Bush

and beating Bush in 2004 is my raison d'etre.

Rightly or wrongly Dean has been tagged as a cultural liberal and aggressively anti-war. That is a prescription for an electoral disaster. I think once the media tags you it is extremely difficult to shake the label.

I am afraid the Democratic party will repeat the McGovern debacle of 1972. We could afford it then- we had firm control of both houses of congress and most state legislatures. The Democratic party is now the minority party- the Republicans control both Houses of Congress and most state legislatures.

A landslide loss in 04 to Chimpy could open the floodgates. That is a fate to avoid at all costs.

[w13rd0]

41. Please keep repeating that mantra...

...the McGovern line is proving to be a real non-starter.

The media will tag ANY candidate that is worth a vote as a "cultural liberal". And as for their being aggressively anti-war, you haven't been paying attention. Anti-arrogant and pre-emptive war based on bad intel. Sorry, but hindsight and the fact that most of the candidates are now trying to say that's where they've always been proves you wrong...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. The Media Will Tag People

on what they perceive as their cardinal trait. For instance Clinton was slick, Gore was boring, Holy Joe is sanctimoniuos, Chimpy's stupid, etcetera.

Dean , rightly or wrongly, now carries the banner of the cultural liberal. That and his agggressive anti-war stance will not play in the Red States, some of which we need to capture to win the White House. In fact , Gore carried several states with large rural areas like Wisconsin, Iowa, Oregon, Michigan, and Pennsylvania which will now be put in play. Dean proponents like to say his pro-gun position will help him with rural voters. Being pro gun is just part of a larger cluster of conservative values and if he campaigned with gun nut Ted Nugent it would still be of no help.

[indigo32]

94. Hey DemocratSinceBirth

I just want to throw my perspective out here and you can tell me what you think.
Personally... I don't see signing onto Bush's war as a positive, I NEVER supported it in the first place, which should come as no surprise, but think about it. Bush drove this war, it wis administrations idea, why should folks whom are somehow convinced it'll make them safer chose those that followed the leader :gag: :retch: (and I'm wretching in at the thought of considering him a leader).

What we need to do is STRONGLY FRAME the weaknesses in his security plans.... and there are only about 1000. If we can do that.

I, like you, will be at my caucus, and then vote for whomever the Dem candidate is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. People Are Very Passaionate About Dean

and I respect that passion. My allegiance is to my party. I will do whatever I can to advance what I believe to be the interests of my party and that means to me supporting the candidate who can beat Chimpy.

My reservations revolve around Dean's electability and it's alot more than "Dean can't win because I said so" but I respect his passion and his bringing the fight to Chimpy.

Maybe that's a discussion for another day.

The Dems don't control the House, the Senate, or the state legislatures. There is no margin for error. The reactionaries are at the gate. I just pray they will be stopped.

Good luck to you and your candidate.

[Egnever]

15. If you dont like Dean thats fine by me

Support whoever you want to. This kinda crap is just lame though.

This article is great stuff. First it goes on about the deluge of emails they get from some Dean conspiracy wing then goes on to say the wing consists of a dozen people.

Sounds like crap to me.

Ill vote for anyone other than bush personally but the way its looking now it wont matter cause if this forum is any indication of the state of the democratic party we are well on our way to self destructing.

Or do all you posters above just like to bellyache about how mean Dean supporters are while still being willing to vote for him if he gets the nod?

Cause quite honestly there are a few candidates in this race that the idea of voting for them to lead this country makes me want to puke, but the idea of bush in office for another four years is far worse.

[molly]

27. Take a look at the all the Dean threads started this morning

[Egnever]

42. Gues what!

Hes popular!

I know you dont like that fact. Its glaringly obvious. But the fact is there are a mess of people out there that think the man is just what they have been looking for and after listening to him they are motivated to act!

Sory this bugs you but you better get used to it its only going to get more prevelant as time goes on.

[molly]

46. Using DU for FREE fundraising?

never have seen that with any other candidate - boy, you guys have nerve - I'll give you that! :wtf:

[LastRobot]

49. Dean is using DU for free fundraising?

I don't think this is true.

[Egnever]

53. What in the world are you talking about?

?????

[Khephra]

77. Maybe your candidate's supporters should try it

I'd rather have nerve than waffles in the morning.

[Aaron]

101. lol! (n/t)

sharp one.

[LastRobot]

47. Now I'm reading more carefully

Why do you need to use phrases like "you better get used to it"? Does this help or harm? Is the goal here to feel right or be right?

[Egnever]

52. No goal at all

Just spatting with the spatters.

This is not the first time molly has come up with this idea that somehow Dean is telling people "go forth and flood DU" wich is just rediculous in the extreme.

The simple fact is Dean is gaining supporters at an amazing pace. something lie 7,000 people have signed up on his sight in the last three days. Molly seems to think its some conspiracy wen really its just a growing amount of people that believe in what the man has to say and are vocal about it.

I am growing tired of the Dean bashing and perhaps am not as gentle as I could should be about it.

But the bottom line is I am not running for office. Nor am I trying to win anyone over here.

I Believe firmly in voting your heart in the primaries and your head in the general.

If Dean doesnt get the nod Ill vote for whoever does.

Till that time ill go tit for tat with anyone that wants to spout grossly inacurate crap about my chosen candidate.

Dean sent people to flood DU come on! You take that seriously?

[LastRobot]

59. Its just that...

We should be able to win over the naysayers by putting forth the positives of why we like Dean. We should try to raise the level of debate, not lower it.

Now don't get me wrong, I get mad too sometimes and have posted things which were taken as insulting. Its human.

However, many people are turned off to voting because of the negativity. If we can "spin it positive" we may get more people interested. Most people on DU vote, but this is a good place to start trying to turn things around before bringing it into the real world.

[Egnever]

62. Well...

I will be in the real world on sunday handing out flyers and smiling and gooshing sweetness then.

To be in a democratic forum and hear this crapolla these folks in this thread are spewing just boils my blood and quite honestly im tired of the whining.

I will say it again if you dont like Dean thats fine, by all means support your chosen candidate whole heartedly. But crying because so many people are genuinely enthusiastic about a candidate other than your chosen guy, going so far as to imply that theres some kind of conspiracy to promote him by his campaign is where I draw the line and I start to push back.

Guess what as of today there are 215,000 people signed up on Deans website if just 1% of those people posted at DU this sight would be nothing but Dean posts. As his support continues to grow there will be more and more posts here about him. Shouting for it to go away wont make it so.

This is a democratic forum perhaps these people expect Dean supporters to be posting on perhaps Free republic? Its just sillyness!

[Eloriel]

87. WhOAAAAAA, LastRobot. Check your FACTS.

It's just that ... We should be able to win over the naysayers by putting forth the positives of why we like Dean. We should try to raise the level of debate, not lower it.

PLEASE take that message to the Kerry supporters who are the ones who take it upon themselves again and again and again to bash Dean WITH LIES AND DISTORTIONS. THEY'RE the ones who need to get a positive message about their candidate.

With the number of posts you've racked up, I don't know if you've been here long enough to have a longer view of the situation. But if anything, Dean supporters are just sick and tired of Dean being lied about (repeatedly -- we totally discredit some piece of disinformation and the very same posters post the very same shit again and again and again), and we're sick of being bashed ourselves. If that brings out the fight in us, well so be it. I too will NOT sit back and let the lies hold forth about Dean. He's a perfectly wonderful candidate -- IMO the best of the bunch. I will NOT abide him being trashed with untruths.

Some days I've literally spent ALL my time defending Dean on various threads -- and I spend quite a bit of time on any given day here at DU. It gets very fucking old.

Ya know?

Eloriel

[LizW]

44. There are 5 and 3 of them are negative towards Dean (n/t)

[sfecap]

48. Isn't that interesting....

the majority negative. Who would have thought? :-)

[Khephra]

76. Maybe it's because we're working to support our candidate

and that our candidate is doing and saying more than any other candidate, hmmmmmm??

Frankly, a lot of the Dean critics sound jealous to me more than anything else.

[TheBigGuy]

91. This could be counterproductive for the Dean campaign....

I mean, to spam journos with emails.....does anyone thinlk this is such a good idea...to piss-off the media?

I don't have a problem with spamming sites like DU (if this "Dean Defense Force" is even paying attention to a place like DU), or letters-to-the-editor to newpapers or places like CNN...its another thing to hassle journos....you sort of want them on your side, or at least not alienate them.

[Khephra]

97. Yes

I've read that one reason the press responds to the RW the way it does is exactly because they're flooded with RW mails. I've read that in several articles and the quotes were from different reporters/editors. The stupid editors/reporters said that because there is more RW mail then there must be more RWers out there than LWers. We have to change that perception.

Fight fire with fire, that's what I say.

[IDUDOYOU]

17. Hey there liberalnurse

Right back at ya! :toast:

Like I mentioned before, it is not what you say, it is what the other person hears.
Dean supporters need to remember it!

[Egnever]

22. or perhaps?

you might want to listen to Dean himself and make your own judgement?

if hes not your cup of tea theres nothing at all wrong with that, but judging someone based on what people who like him say makes absolutely no sense to me.

Follow your own heart but vote against Bush!

[IDUDOYOU]

23. You are judged by the people around you

I have listened to Dean. Some things I really like about him, some things I do not.
But his supporters are what really turned me off.
Also, I think it is way too early to definitely say, "I am voting for this candidate."
A lot can change between now and next spring.

[LastRobot]

25. and that really stinks about life

To be judged by those around you and not for who you are...

[IDUDOYOU]

29. So it is why you should be careful about who your friends are

or how people support a particular candidate.

[Individualist]

68. You need to do this,

you should do that???? Who are you to tell me what I should do?? I find these Dean bashing threads amusing, and this 60 year old deanybopper will continue enthusiastically supporting Gov. Dean.

[Egnever]

26. well he certainly could grow horns and a tail

But I have personally read everything i have come accross on dean and viewed/listened to everything I can get my hands on regarding him or said by him.

After veiwing all of that i feel pretty secure in my decision to support him whole heartedly.

I personally have been looking for the person I thought could get bush out of office in the next elections since the selection and Dean is the only one that has made me feel there is hope so far. It may be early for you but for me it is never too soon to start working on getting rid of Bush

Again if he doesnt do it for you thats fine i have no problem with it but bashing him because of what some of his supporters say seems as lame to me as me bashing you because the person above welcomed you to DU and I didnt like a post he made in the past.

[SummerGrace]

66. it's not too early!

to work for a candidate. Whatever experience you get from working for a candidate now will make you a better supporter for the candidate that does get the nomination. We will need the best ideas and energy from all the candidates and their campaign workers to take into the election.

[ShaneGR]

28. Well, it is kind of like a free republic operation

If they do it then so should we.

[papau]

30. One of the few fair WP stories in a while

It does not say or imply that Dean folks are doing anything wrong.

It does note that they are watching the media.

And doing this on a budget of $585 to date - they should compare this to the team leader GOP operation and it's cost!

[nuxvomica]

40. Fair?

Did you read the headline:
Dean Defense Forces: Lobbing E-mail at the Enemy (my italics)

Did you notice how he cherry picked the most negative reactions?

Did he bother to once mention how Repubs have used these same tactics to engage in outright character assassination of other candidates? Did he mention Repub activism at all?

This article is very bad, very slanted journalism and pretty much what I'd expect from Howard Kurtz.

[IDUDOYOU]

31. liberalnurse, they will not let me PM

Not enough posts. :-(

I have heard absolutely nothing about Dean around here.
The only passing mention of him is that seven of the nine Democratic candidates will be in Pittsburgh on Monday at the National Urban League conference.

[liberalnurse]

39. Yea, I saw that...

I sent it to my sister in Bridgeville which is just south of downtown Pittsburgh. I haven't heard back yet...I did not see a Dean web site either for Pittsburgh. Typically a strong democratic area but it too is changing like the Mayors race.

Get some more posts.....

[IDUDOYOU]

43. Post about LTTE on Santorum

The first line almost made me laugh.
Different thread.
Santorum is reason enough to move out of PA.

[SaveElmer]

36. Just doin their job

Looks to me like the Dean people are just doing their job. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this tactic. The Republicans have been frying our bacon with this kind of thing for years. It's about time Democrats fought back. I would hope the other Democratic candidates would do the same thing. If a few journalists get irked, big deal. Howie Kurtz is a Republican shill, so naturally he is going to put a bad spin on it. I say keep it up. And Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt et al., get your asses in gear and do the same thing.

[nuxvomica]

45. Well said

I have nothing to add. :)

[maxanne]

50. this article fails

to mention how the right wing does the same things. We all know how freepers freep polls, and Amazon.com book reviews. The right also does letter campaigns to newspapers - you may have seen some in your local paper - only the names are different - it's a scripted letter.

As for all of you who whine about Dean supporters - fine - don't support Dean. Find a candidate whose supporters meet your requirements. Ask yourself this, though - who is going to be in the White House - the candidates or the supporters?

I have not committed to a candidate - but I would no more choose my candidate on the basis of his/her supporters than I would on what they look like.

[IDUDOYOU]

51. But a person's supporters do work in the White House

Cheney et al. just did not appear out of nowhere.
"Hey, W. I'll find your VP. Guess what, I'm the best candidate."

[maxanne]

95. great comparison

IDUDOYOU. :eyes:

You're right, Cheney didn't just come out of nowhere. He came out of Poppy's closet. Not even remotely comparable. A great many of his advisors came from Poppy Bush's stable.

Maybe we should find out who Dean's father's buddies are. :crazy:

[ProfessorPlum]

60. Everyone has missed the most important line

At the end:

(snip)
One Dean supporter who wrote back, Tim Withers of Arlington, told Lynch, "We just want to make sure he gets better treatment by the press than Al Gore did in 2000."
(/snip)

THIS is the most important sentiment in the whole piece. Democrats, as Bob Somerby has been noting for years now, need to wake up and not let the press walk all over them and their candidates. The DDF needs to be expanded to be the Democratic Defense Force so that Media Hos will know that they can't just write or say anything they want.

I'm actually surprised that these letters aren't just being ignored, and that Kurtz would validate them by writing this article. I know he wants to smear these people for being politically active, but he is giving me hope that these kinds of campaigns actually might work.

Don't let the media "Gore" YOUR candidate, whoever it is! THIS is the most important message in the article and I salute the DDF for being on top of it.

For God's sake, we've GOT to be a little partisan, finally, after all this time of having partisan Republicans ram their agenda through everything. Partisanship in defense of a good candidate is not a crime, and hopefully that partisanship will be conferred to the Democrats as a party, if we can just keep people aware of what is going on.

[Isome]

65. I second that...

even though Dean's not my choice.

The press, of all groups, needs to be reminded of their "egregious malfeasance" during the 2000 presidential campaign. It was sickening then and I, personally, was outraged that the Democrats weren't organized enough, or indignant enough, to fight back with any efficacy.

Screw Kurtz. He's an illogical vacillator. Good for the Dean crew! Stand behind your candidate and don't allow the mainstream media to decimate him they way they decimated Gore.

[sfecap]

71. Great post....

Apparently, Democrats have a short memory. There are still people who will swear that Al Gore said "I invented the Internet". It never happened, of course, but if a "story" gets repeated enough it becomes "fact" for the masses.

The rethugs have VERY effectively used their resources to flood the media with their spin. It works very well. Every morning, thousands of media outlets get faxes and emails from the RNC spinning the days events. Much of it makes the news that millions of Americans watch. I am married to a PR consultant. I know firsthand how the system works. 95% of what you read or see in the media had been "fed" to them by PR professionals. Believe me, there is very little "investigative" reporting anymore. Log onto the PR Newswire and watch the stories roll off every second.

If the Democrats, or the candidates, permit the RNC to shape the news we will get 4 more years of this administration. They kicked Gore's ass (media wise) in 2000. Why do you think that nary a negative story was published about the chimp? Because Rove's machine controlled the output, they dominated the flow of "stories", and the Dems didn't respond effectively and forcefully.

If you think the DDT is a bad thing, you better think a bit more deeply about it. EVERY candidate ought to be doing exactly what the Dean people are doing. EVERY story that is inaccurate or untrue should be challenged immediately. If it isn't, it will become like the Gore/Internet story. America gets it's "news" in 60 second sound bites. They have a small attention span. The Rove team knows this very well and exploits it very effectively.

The DDT is a very good thing. You may not appreciate the intensity of his followers, you may not appreciate the enthusiasm or the focus or the determination, but that is the ONLY way that * will be removed from office.

The nice guy shit lost us the WH in 2000. The nice guy shit lost us the majority in 2002. The gloves are off. If that makes you squeamish, get out of the way. This is down and dirty tough politics. This is for keeps. The stakes have never been higher.

Support your candidate, whomever it is. Get motivated! Fight hard! Get involved! Make it happen! And when it's all over, remember that the goal is regime change.

May the best man win, and defeat the facists that have stolen out country.

Now...go over to the Dean site and donate some money! :-)

[oldcoot]

103. "Gore invented the Internet" Myth

You are correct. Many people still buy into the myth that Gore claimed to invent the Internet. Many people also believe that Bush is a nice and honest man despite the tactics his supporters used against Senator McCain. If the Democrats want to win, they need to start fighting fire with fire.

[newsguyatl]

63. i'm not even

going to read the article based on what i've read in this thread...

but i must say, there are a TON of idiots here at DU; please don't make me start naming names, 'cause golly, you know who you are...

IF there's some "conspiracy" here at DU concerning dean, TRUST me, it's not from his supporters, it's from his detractors... that's painfully obvious from the threads started, especially from a ton of "newbies"... i have NEVER seen so many threads posted against one candidate merely to smear or just "compare" him to others...

there's no opponent i can think of that i must continually drag up in threads... guess that shows my faith in dean, and others' fear in him...


you guys wanna keep picking a fight with the dean team, bring it on! you'll only fire us up more...

we're used to fighting off attacks from the right, but trust me, we can fight off attacks from within, too...

you have good reason to fear many of his supporters... we're angry, we're passionate, we trust our leader, and we want our country back...

[CMT]

67. That is fine we are doing what conservatives have done for years

with all their liberal bias crap. If we disagree with what is written we will respond. Though many of them are thoughtful in expression this writer wants to play up the negative in tone.

"I am sure Dean supporters will flood this thread with scathing criticisms"... this of course is meant as a knock of Dean supporters. If the candidate you support were doing the same thing--was finding inventive ways of challenging the press preceptions then I guess it would be fine, but because it is Dean--who by the way may have the most support on DU but also gets the most criticsm in threads by opponents of other campaigns who then claim how mean and nasty Dean supporters are when we respond--then of course this is the wrong strategy. It is about time our candidates stood up both to Bush and the conservative press--and Dean is doing it.

[Khephra]

69. All I need to know is the name of the author of the piece

Howard Kurtz.

Nuff said.

[Joeve]

70. I'm curious

I don't know how long DU has been up, but I wonder, if it was, if Clinton supporters in 1992 got as much crap as the Dean supporters do now. Will Dean be the man? Still too early to tell. The fact that a lot of people like his spirit and his willingness to fight should say something to the other candidates. It seems to me that all too often Democrats don't play to win, they play not to lose and that's where the problem lies.

Let me add this: I don't post here as often as others do, because I'm busy with other things, but I *do* read DU regularly (and have for the last three years or so), and I've even had several articles printed on the main page (do a search for "Joe Vecchio" and you'll see them). While there are more than a few people here who speak intelligently about the issues, there are also plenty of whiney crybabies who bitch and moan about everything yet refuse to get involved in any coherent way. Being part of a democratic republic means that if you want to have influence you need to get more involved.

That's what I decided to do this time around, volunteering for Dean, but I'm doing so because I wanted to learn more about the campaign process and Dean was the only candidate with an active group in Atlanta. Will I support any of the other Democratic candidates? Hell, yes: I happen to like nearly all of them, and the ones I dislike (Lieberman and Gephardt) I dislike because of their track records, not because of their "supporters." I happen to think it's a good idea that the Dean campaign fights back so hard, that's what James Carville did and that's why Bill Clinton was elected twice. They understand that in politics, principles are something to have after you've won, because there's no such thing as second place. You either have the power to make changes or you don't. And nothing the Dean campaign has done is anywhere near as bad as what the GOP propaganda machine does regularly.

I hope the Dean people keep fighting, and I hope that, if another candidate gets the nomination, the Dean supporters will give that energy to that candidate's campaign and help defeat the real enemy, the leadership and financial supporters of the GOP.

[Khephra]

78. DU has been up since the 2000 Selection

Or rather somewhere close to that point. I think they started it when he got into office.

[pansypoo53219]

73. guess what people

we need a candidate willing to take on the VRWC full bore. we can't sit in the middle. we need someone to grab the lazy assed viscerally to go and VOTE. to inspire the young. Kerry is fine, but he just is so damned bland, i think the MWs will just roll over him.

[IDUDOYOU]

89. Whoa, you are wrong about Kerry

Remember the Cali fundraiser when he said we need a regime change at home and the Repugs questioned his patriotism.
He replied that he was not going to take crap about his patriotism from people who never served in the military.
Never heard another peep about Kerry's patriotism after his comeback.
He did not yell, he did not shout, his face did not turn read.
He simply stated the fact that he was a war hero and the Tom Delays of the world were just exterminators.

[newsguyatl]

74. ok, i just read the piece

and i LOVE it...

why in the world would a dean detractor post it here? you think to fellow liberal democrats, it makes him look bad?

if anything, it makes him look BAD ASS! this campaign is about fighting back, about not taking the abuse from the right anymore... it's about the underdog picking himself up off the ground and saying 'i'm not gonna take you're bullying anymore." it's about an incredibly organized group of highly intelligent and determined folks...

so thanks for posting! a nice reminder of why i continue to support dean!

[Armstead]

75. Duh, Gee "Talking Points." How unusual

I'm not a die hard Dean supporter but WHATDAFUK is wrong with an organized campaign to contact the Media Whores and let them know there are real people who disagree with the Corporate/Rove/Right-Wing/DLC "Centrist" line about everything?

Like Dean supporters atr just supposed to let the fuking Beltway Mafia say "Dean is too liberal to be elected" and allow that to go unchallenged as the Conventional Wisdom?

That's why we're in the mess we're in today. Only One Voice is getting into the media. All others -- including the very moderate Howard Dean -- are ignored or insulted as the "fringe.

Fuk that. The Whores don't even mention Dennis Kucinich, even though his views represent a substantial portion of MAINSTREAM DEMOCRATS...We need more angry voices letting the Media and Political Gasbags know that they do not have a monopoly on opinion yet.

[janx]

79. I have searched for a Kurtz email address and cannot find it.

Does anyone have it? Google revealed nothing, and it's not provided on his column pages.

[nuxvomica]

83. [e-mail]

Here's the page for all WP addresses:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/interact/longterm/stfbio/wpemail.htm

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

80. This sums it up:

One Dean supporter who wrote back, Tim Withers of Arlington, told Lynch, "We just want to make sure he gets better treatment by the press than Al Gore did in 2000."

[IDUDOYOU]

88. Opposite view

Sometimes when a certain strategy or way of doing things fail, people try the exact opposite to accomplish a goal.
And sometimes that strategy backfires even more.

"Gentleman can disagree with being disagreeable."

[DarienComp]

90. Oh for God's sake, it's by Howard Kurtz.

Jeez. Are the anti-Dean people so bloody desparate that they feel they must resort to posting badly written articles by confirmed media whores?

<ducking>

[MODemocrat]

93. Howard Kurtz! That says it all

Thanks for that info.

[indigo32]

96. IDUDOYOU

I'm a Dean supporter... ya wanna know something,
I don't have alot of sympathy for the press. In fact I have NONE.

I totally agree with "One Dean supporter who wrote back, Tim Withers of Arlington, told Lynch, "We just want to make sure he gets better treatment by the press than Al Gore did in 2000.""

As for how I go about supporting Dean in everyday life...besides the occasional letter to the editor, if that's OK with you, I hand out lit at public events. I spent this morning at a farmers market handing lit, AND CONTRIBUTE MONEY. And guess what... that ain't got anything to do with any of the other candidates. SO you do your thing and I'll do mine... and methinks thou protesteth too mcuh.

[IDUDOYOU]

111. I really do not care what you did this morning

Dean people are a little too senstive about criticism and a little too ready to dish it out.

[Capn Sunshine]

105. If you have a problem with organization

and a united front who will defend their man zealously;recognizing the threat we face from wingnuts who have changed the course of the debate when you weren't looking


maybe you should look up the Kerry forces?

Just a thought
:nuke: