Why is the pope still against the use of condoms?

[Swede]

The numbers are in and aids is on the rise again. His attitude is blind to modern day problems.

[Beaker]

1. maybe he's just really into barebacking-

like andrew sullivan.

[Swede]

5. Ooooooooo,your gonna burn in hell.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pansypoo53219]

9. OOooooooh

meow, but i agree!

better to be LUTHERAN!

[plcdude]

12. Yes it is

someday they will come to their senses become Lutheran too.

[evil_orange_cat]

3. because he's a crusty, dopy, old fool who has lost his mind

;) and his underlings shelter and shuffle around child molesters...

[sangh0]

6. So how many votes will Dems win with Pope-bashing?

.

[evil_orange_cat]

15. hmmm... do you see a Dem candidate doing so? What about the media?

The media is the one constantly attacking the Church (and rightfully so). But wait, everyone says the media is helping Dubya. So which is it? Are Dem's Catholic bashers? Considering Clark and Kerry(I think) are Catholics themselves?

Do voters dislike bashing pedophiles? Judging from the Michael Jackson coverage and Catholic scandal coverage, people like bashing pedophiles.

[sangh0]

17. I see Democrats

engaging in bigotry

Are Dem's Catholic bashers?

This thread seems to indicate "Yes"

Considering Clark and Kerry(I think) are Catholics themselves?

I don't think Clark and Kerry's good behavior excuses the bad behavior of some DUers.

Do voters dislike bashing pedophiles?

The Pope is a pedophile now? I'm sure that'll win Dems some votes.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

30. It's pretty weak and poor

to imply that the Pope is a pedophile, with no evidence. Such strong remarks with so little to support them are the very definition of bigotry.

No... did I say the pope is a pedophile?

You obviously implied it. I mentioned "Pope-bashing" and you responded by asking if people didn't like pedophile-bashing. Asking about pedophiles in response to a question about the Pope implies that you think the Pope is a pedophile.

Otherwise, why bring up pedophilia when I asked about Pope-bashing? I didn't complain about pedophiliac-bashing.

[AntiCoup2K4]

42. The Pope isn't a pedophile

But he hasn't done too much to remove the pedophiles from the church hieracrchy that he's supposed to be running. After all, this behavior among priests didn't suddenly spring into existence within the last two years when it started getting major media coverage.

If the pope didn't know about it, the cardinals should have told him.
If the cardinals didn't know about it, the bishops should have told them.
And the bishops certainly knew, because somebody was moving those priestophiles from one parish to another. Granted, I'm not Catholic so I'm not sure whether it's the bishops or cardinals who approves those transfers, but certainly a portion of the church hierarchy was aware that they had priests who liked to fuck children, and did nothing to stop it. And ultimately, as the head of the church, that responsibility falls on JP, does it not?

[Blue_Chill]

34. Was there a need to launch that insult?

Did you stop to consider that some of us are Catholic and might take offense to you crass and senseless comment? Seriously I want you to think about what good could possibly result from launching into attack on the leader of the Catholic church.

Did it make you feel better about youself?

[sangh0]

4. The Church only approves of sex

for procreational reasons.

[Beaker]

14. someone should tell the priests that young boys can't bear children

maybe that's the problem....they're confused.

[youngred]

53. that has what to do with the topic discussed at the start of the thread?

Oh wait, nothing...you just want to get in another chap shot.

Bravo!

[Beaker]

63. ummmm....in case you hadn't noticed-

I wasn't responding to the original post.
sheesh!
:eyes:

BTW- I wasn't aware that a thread-topic nazi had finally been appointed...congratulations

[dfong63]

7. he'll probably die soon - hopefully there will be some doctrine changes

[arewethereyet]

37. I wouldn't hold my breath

been pretty steady on this for centuries

[Silverhair]

50. No. To make that doctrine change, they would have...

to do away with some of the doctrines that are critical to the foundation of the Roman Catholic church. Those would be the same kind of changes that Protestants made 500 years ago. They would lose the doctrines of Original Sin, the Immaculate conception, the sinlessness of Mary, for starters. Ain't gonna happen.

[youngred]

54. There will be, unfortunately

he has stacked the college of cardinals with arch-conservatives and Opus Dei has increasing power. The time is now for liberal Catholics to raise their voices and oppose the further destruction of their church. And a little bit less hostility from DUers towards all things catholic sure wouldn't hurt anything

[patdem]

8. Maybe because they do not make shriviled up condoms?

for shriviled up...well you get the idea?

[Shrek]

10. It's fundamental to the Catholic faith

Here's an excerpt from a longer explanation.

Contraception is wrong because it’s a deliberate violation of the design God built into the human race, often referred to as "natural law." The natural law purpose of sex is procreation. The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.

But sexual pleasure within marriage becomes unnatural, and even harmful to the spouses, when it is used in a way that deliberately excludes the basic purpose of sex, which is procreation. God’s gift of the sex act, along with its pleasure and intimacy, must not be abused by deliberately frustrating its natural end—procreation.

[LondonReign2]

19. Uhhhh, help me out here..

So, if you should only have sex if it is for creation, then...

Does the Catholic church frown on sex after a woman has passed menopuase?

Does the Catholic church frown upon sex for an infertile couple?

[sangh0]

23. Yes

The only sex the Catholic Church approves of is sex for the purpose of procreation.

[Silverhair]

52. No. In the Catholic church all sex has to have a theoretical

chance of conception. That the chance is extremely small doesn't matter, as long as whether or not a new life will result is "left up to God". Those doctrines were in place way before modern medicine.

[ShimokitaJer]

21. That explains why Catholics shouldn't use condoms...

... but why should the Catholic church spread the lie that condoms don't protect against AIDS?

It's one thing to tell believers to follow a certain restriction, but to attempt to impose it on others through a campaign of misinformation... well, it's downright Bushlike.

[Padraig18]

32. Correction:

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that condoms don't prevent the spread of disease, etc., but certain uninformed priests and bishops do. The Church teaches that abstinence and then monogamous sexual behavior is the only 100% effective way to stop the spread of the HIV virus and other STDs.

Do we say that ALL Democrats believe that Queen Elizabeth is part of a drug cartle and worldwide crime syndicate, just because Lyndon LaRouche says so, and he's a Democrat? :eyes:

[ShimokitaJer]

39. Correction back at ya

The Vatican deliberately released misinformation regarding condoms' ability to resist the AIDS virus. Certain Catholic groups have rejected the claim, but it's not just "certain uninformed priests and bishops" -- it's the official position of the church.

" The Catholic Church stunned scientists and angered the World Health Organisation (WHO) in October by claiming that condoms had tiny holes in them which allowed the virus to pass through."

"The Vatican supported that bizarre claim in October, saying that condoms had tiny holes which allowed the virus to pass through - so that to use them would encourage its spread. The WHO angrily called the advice "incorrect" and "dangerous"; Catholics for a Free Choice called the Vatican's policy "a disaster"."

Read about it here:

http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2240985
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=468918

[TomNickell]

28. I doubt it....

No catholic theologian and no claim to be.

But most lay catholics ignore the church on this one. And otherwise respectable catholic writers consider it crazy.

It was once fundamental that the Earth is stationary....

[Nikia]

33. The Pope must be Catholically consistent

Yes, popes have the power to change church policy, but no contraception is a church policy. I believe that the Church now encourages fertility awareness as an accpetable form of limiting a married couples family size, but artificial contraception is still against Catholic policy. It doesn't matter whether few lay Catholics agree or not, the Vatican evidently thinks that it is important to continue to promote this policy. I don't think that this policy is going to change anytime soon.

[NNN0LHI]

11. No procreation = No sex n/t

[sybylla]

16. Yeah, under penalty of horrendous suffering & death, apparently

Seems fair </sarcasm>

Might be okay if it only applied to pedophilic priests.

[Catt03]

13. No, not blind, just rigid

The Catholic Church sets it's own rules.

The rules are:

1. No sex before marriage as sex is for procreation; marriage is a sacrement.
2. No sex for same sex partners
3. No extramarital sex

Therefore...that eliminates any need for a condom.

[janx]

18. You think it matters to HIM?

He certainly doesn't have a problem with the absence of condoms.

[ieoeja]

20. Because Sex is a Sin.

While sex had* been necessary for procreation, it is still a sin**. One should never have sex except for the purpose of procreation and, even then, seek forgiveness. Using a condom is sort of like flag burning.


*By this logic the Roman Catholic church should be thrilled by the invention of in-vitro fertilization and should, to be consistent, insist that all their followers use this method henceforth.

**Baptism of infants by the Roman Catholic church is done for this reason. Baptism, for most other Christian sects, washes away sin AND confirms the individual as a member of that faith. Roman Catholics have a separate ceremony for the latter called Confirmation which occurs at about the same age one would normally be Baptised into his/her parents' choice of religion. Many non-Catholics ignorant of these facts see the infant baptismal as some sort of attempt by the Church to "capture" the child into their religion when it is actually an unconditional washing away of sin that has nothing to do with the infants beliefs.

[salinen]

22. Because he looks like

a copulatory appendage and is afraid that someone might accidentally put a dry cleaning bag over him.

[youngred]

56. Wow that was certainly useful and constructive to dialogue

thanks for participating!

[progressivejazz]

29. Ever hear of Jansenism?

Relying completely on memory here (no googling), it seems to me you're stating the fundamental precept of Jansenism. The Catholic church declared this a heresy some time back.

Further:

"*By this logic the Roman Catholic church should be thrilled by the invention of in-vitro fertilization and should, to be consistent, insist that all their followers use this method henceforth."

It would be just as consistent for the church to retain its historical position, which leaves more space for the will of God.


"**Baptism of infants by the Roman Catholic church is done for this reason. Baptism, for most other Christian sects, washes away sin AND confirms the individual as a member of that faith. Roman Catholics have a separate ceremony for the latter called Confirmation which occurs at about the same age one would normally be Baptised into his/her parents' choice of religion. Many non-Catholics ignorant of these facts see the infant baptismal as some sort of attempt by the Church to "capture" the child into their religion when it is actually an unconditional washing away of sin that has nothing to do with the infants beliefs."

True, baptism is considered the washing away of sin--original sin. Nowhere does the Catholic church say that original sin is sexual in nature. Many uneducated people make this assumption, but it's just not true.

[Scott Lee]

24. Because they decrease sensitivity?

.

[NNN0LHI]

25. I wonder if French Ticklers are OK? n/t

[eleny]

27. Because he doesn't need them anymore? n/t

[Padraig18]

31. "Why is the pope still against the use of condoms?"

The most likely reason is that he is still Catholic, I would guess. What an obvious piece of flame-bait! :eyes:

[Swede]

35. Aids is reaching epidemic proportions in Africa.

He cannot be compassionate and still not see the preventive use of condoms.

[Blue_Chill]

36. He and many believe that condoms give a false sense of security

Having sex in Africa is like holding a revolver to your head. Protected sex just puts less bullets in the chamber.

In the end however everyone will end up blowing their heads off if they don't stop pulling the trigger.

[Swede]

38. Blue_Chill just say "no" doesn't work,never has.

The only logical step is to have safe sex.

[Blue_Chill]

44. The only logical step is to stop

Safe sex is a aspirin for a brain tumor. It may give you the illusion of a cure in the short term but the problem will grow and you will pay less attention to it.

I don't support "just say no" for most areas, like the US. But when a problem has grown like it has in Africa it's time for drastic action. And if the pope is right and "safe sex" does in fact lead to increased sexual activity because of a false sense of security, you will alter the culture in a way not easily reversed and in effect doom them all.

[Scott Lee]

49. Do you realize what you just said?

We gots to stop them Africans from all that unsafe sex? I can't even go into how that comment is laced with racism. Telling Africans to "just say no" will do no more good than telling Americans to. What Africa is lacking is not some twiglike finger wagging at them to resist those sexual urges - but more access to condoms, better doctors, and information.

I really, really want to pretend you didn't post what you actually did.

[Padraig18]

51. When faced with a self-inflicted epidemic disease,...

...why is telling both the potential victims and carriers to 'just say no' racist?

[Blue_Chill]

61. This has nothing to do with race and YOU KNOW IT.

I don't care if it's africa, america, or fucking mars. My opinion has no basis in race it is based in REALITY. The disease has spread TOO FAR for half cures and false hope. Death is a powerful motivator my friend and when a disease is rare as it is in the US people can rationalize risk away. But when you know the odds are against you, it's much easier to resist temptation.

Part of the problem is that no one can be honest and straight forward without people LIKE YOU crying racism for no damn reason.

I am a hispanic that came to the US as a child, I have been the victim of racism many times myself so save your accusations for someone else.

[Padraig18]

48. You might as well be King Canute...

... and stand at the shore commanding the tide to not come in, as to expect the Catholic Church to promote ANY means of artificial contraception. It won't happen, regardless of the reasons you think condoms should be promoted by the RCC. You might as well ask pigs to fly... :eyes:

[sandnsea]

40. Sex is a blessing, not wild lust

To add to the other discussions about sex within marriage for procreation. Respecting that idea is supposed to create a more respectful, healthier sexual attitude. Where couples appreciate each other, use restraint for the purposes of birth control, etc. In addition, considering life as a natural 'consequence' of sex means pregnancy should ALWAYS be a consideration when having sex because there is no perfect contraception. Children should be welcomed into the world regardless of circumstances, not be considered burdens. Agree or disagree.

However, on the subject of condoms, the Church could easily take the position that condoms are necessary to protect ones own life. Staying alive is the primary duty of any Catholic, so to speak. Using condoms is definitely self-defense in this day and age. They're so wrong on this issue and it just pains me that so many people are dying because of it.

[knight_of_the_star]

41. Exactly!

That is why to most pagans we don't give any kind of shit about how many times you have sex or who with so long as you are responsible about it. Not to say that pagan women are loose mind you.

[sandnsea]

60. I think you missed the point

Or I'm misunderstanding your definition of responsible. Any time a couple has sex, they ought to recognize that a baby may well be the result. Birth control is 99% effective, at best, not 100%. That means at least 1 in 100 sex acts are going to result in a pregnancy. That's alot of unintended pregnancies, especially if the people are just having sex for fun. The Church seeks to remind people of the natural (biological) procreation purpose of sex so that children who are born are welcomed into a loving family. Maybe that's what you meant by responsible sex, I'm not sure.

[youngred]

58. "staying alive is the primary duty of any Catholic"

WTF? Is it not a natural instinct of all humans to stay alive as long as possible. Where does the Church teach that Staying alive is the primary duty of Catholics?

I agree with you that the church is wrong, but that is their opinion, and one, in case you didn't notice, endorsed by many non-catholics as well. I as a Catholic oppose that belief and wish to see it ammended, but they are as entitled to it as I are they not?

[sandnsea]

62. Life

This post is about the Church, specifically. My response is about Catholic teaching, specifically. Living, life, is a fundamental teaching of the Church. No suicide, no assisted suicide, no abortion, the fetus and the mother's life are equal, against the death penalty. The ONLY reason to take a life is in self-defense which is where the death penalty can sometimes be appropriate if the society cannot otherwise defend itself. Think third world nations that don't have the money or technology to build super max prisons. Life, living is dogma. They just recently allowed suicides to have a Catholic burial and I'm not 100% sure on that.

This is my point. The Church could easily change their position on condoms by stating that with the AIDS epidemic it is self-defense and essential in some countries in order for Catholics to stay alive. Staying alive trumps procreation, so to speak. It's about the Church, not anybody else's opinions which they're certainly entitled to have. And it's not saying anything about anybody else's opinion or that others don't have a desire to live. It's just about the Church.

[terrya]

43. He wants more Roman Catholics.

It's no accident that the church goes out of its way to preach against condoms...particularly in Third World countries.

My take, anyway.

[AmericanDem]

45. cuts down on sensation

[Terwilliger]

46. "ehh...I can't get any myself, why should I be so generous?"

Can you imagine that pope getting laid?

[Scott Lee]

47. Allowing priests to screw would stop so much misery in the world

It would reduce all this sexual tension and nastiness, saying nothing of what it would do to reduce pedophilia.

[youngred]

59. uh-huh sure

:eyes:

There are near equal rates of pedophilia among the clergy of other religions, but no big story because there was no cover up. While I agree priests should be allowed to marry and have sex if they want I doubt it would change the "sexual tension and nastiness"

[Stuckinthebush]

55. Cue music....

Because...

"Every sperm is sacred....."

(Thank you Monty Python)

[JackDaniel1216]

57. a matter of control

centralized religions (ones that have 1 person at the head i.e. catholosim, mormonism) feel the need to control their masses. the use of condoms is just an arm of that, if you can control peoples natural sexual release then they fall into line and get married and be monogomous, but it never turns out that way.

[mitchum]

64. Because "they're ribbed for HER pleasure"?

[Moderator]

65. I am locking this thread.

This is flamebait.


DU Moderator