Autopsy Report on Cincinnati Black Victim

[TNOE]

has been ruled a "Homicide" - on local news now.

[wndycty]

1. Now it gets interesting. . .

Oh oh.

[RebelOne]

2. Oh boy, keep us Cubicle prisoners updated.

[Loonman]

3. Any more details?

I hate speculation and jumping to conclusions.

[Isome]

123. You do... pray tell why? You do it quite well!!

Please tell the board whether I'm wrong when I say that you were in the first thread about this incident saying that he deserved to die. Is that not a conclusion that you jumped to?

[Loonman]

129. That's bullshit and you know it

Never did I say he deserved to die.


I said if you resist, this is what happens.

Sometimes better and sometimes worse.

In this case, worse.

[Isome]

156. No, I didn't know...

I did ask you to tell "the board" if I was wrong. It's still not bullshit, even though I'm wrong about what you said.

You jumped to the conclusion that the dead man brought it on himself. You are repeat that over & over, while you caution everyone else to withhold judgement.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

4. As if Cincinnati wasn't already a racially tense environment.

[RebelOne]

9. Guess Cincinnati is going to be the scene of the next major race riot.

[rucky]

97. Why should they break their streak now?

that was the site of the last one.

Tensions are high here in Portland,OR as well. (but that was over a stuffed gorilla...nothing like this)

Anytime now...tick, tick

[ecstatic]

5. Fox News dismisses it as a nonissue and continues to bash celebrities

But the story just came in on Yahoo.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&e=3&u=/ap/20031203/ap_on_re_us/died_in_custody

[PROGRESSIVE1]

7. Why isn't there any bashing of...

KKKcountry music???

:puke:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

12. Welcome dittohead. . .

We look forward to a long relationship with you.

[liberalnurse]

33. Cincinnati loves reugs and

Hannity and Foxx......This should be interesting how they try to spin a homocide to protect their "turf".

[TNOE]

6. Apparently

had my daughter on the phone giving me play by play - doctor is saying that the "incident" played a part in his heart failing - but his heart would have done the same thing had he gotten in a fight or got very upset, etc., etc. Saying that the police didn't really do anything wrong... Asking for calm.... although last night Boycotters are gearing up. Asking people not to shop in Downtown Cincinnati during the Christmas holidays. Boyfriend has a jewelry store in downtown Cincinnati - so this will be it for him - he can barely stay in business as it is. Family is supposed to speak out today too. Cincinnati has just recently paid out $3.5 MILLION to other families whose black sons were killed by cops. This will no doubt be another one. Just a matter of how upset the community is going to get.

[supernova]

35. So he would have died anyway

due to Heart Failure... the beating just sped up the process?

This is just stupid.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Too presumptuous for my tastes

would he have died had he gotten to a hospital?
was the heart condition accelerated and aggravated by the beating?
At what POINT IN TIME would his heart disease have killed him but for the beating?
Was the beating the only way to manage the situation?
Even if he took a swing were the officers lives immnently in danger?
What part did they play in aggravating or escalating the situation?

[supernova]

59. Those are all legitimate questions

and as someone w/ a heart condition:

With proper care you can manage H.F., for many years in some cases. So it's not like he might have keeled over in the next six months. Also, I don't see that HF had much to do with it, unless they beat him right over the heart and perhaps injured an already overtaxed artery.

You can have a pretty low exercise tolerance, such that even mild physical exertion seems like running a marathon. All I'm saying is, he would have to have been in pretty severe HF for this to work.

edit: I mean "severe" as in so weak he was ready for a cardiac transplant.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

68. See my other posts

One aspect of my career is that I TEACH lawyers how to cross examine doctors and I TEACH doctors how to be cross examined including having taught courses at major academic institutions. It isn't too difficult to take statements such as the one paraphrased in the opening post (granted I would need to see the acual statement) and have that doctor backtrack on his statement, thereby contradicting himself, damaging his own credibility thereby rendering his opinion useless in the matter.

[supernova]

81. Yes, I'm aware of your

background, NSMA. I wasn't impugning your credentials here. I was agreeing with you, based on personal experience.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

91. I understood that too

I was clear your statements were illustrating the point :hi:

[Goldust]

79. Let me get this straight...

A 350 pound man goes nuts in a restaurant, attacks the police and when his heart gives out from his own obesity and drug abuse, and suddenly he's the "black victim?"

A) His race had nothing to do with this.
B) He had heart disease and coke/PCP jacking up his system.

Part of me hopes all the people calling for this boycott and free money get cornered in an alley by a nutjob like that guy. Makes people who really care about police tactics look like idiots.

Sorry about the rant, but this is just a case of some moron getting himself killed by people trying to defend themselves.

[Loonman]

84. Hear, hear!

:thumbsup:

[supernova]

88. Regardless of whether he died

it's still a beating. The fact that he died is just a the most grim icing.

[redqueen]

92. What's the alternative?

If a person who's under the influence of PCP is attempting to put a policeman in a headlock, throwing them off of him, etc... what option should they have used to get him to submit?

[Goldust]

It's not an f'in beating!

A 350 pound man coked up on cocaine and PCP attacks police officers, tries to fight them as he cuffs them and continues to fight them while on the ground. Whacking his legs with a nightstick to get him on the ground and then sitting on him to keep him down IS NOT A BEATING!

Rodney King got a beating. This guy got restrained. If the cops wanted to beat him, he'd have a busted-up skull.

The problem is you people watch too damn much TV and think it's like on Law & Order where the bad guy just glares at the cops, who can get off a one-liner while single-handedly cuffing a guy. Real life is much different.

We had a similiar situation in Houston a couple of years ago where a crazy woman was standing in the middle of I-10 swinging a knife at people. The police tried to talk to her and when they approached, she started running at them swinging the knife again. The police did what they were trained to do, which is defend yourself by shooting at the center of mass.

There were actually morons calling into the TV station asking why the police didn't shoot a net at her or just shoot the knife out of her hand.

This guy was not a victim. He wasn just some moron with heart disease who decided to tank up on booze, coke, PCP and then head over to the White Castle to cause trouble. The police officers were clearly defending themselves and trying to keep this idiot from getting up and charging again.

I swear, every day I get more and more ashamed to tell people about this site.

[neuvocat]

112. Homicides have victims.

Unless you were a coroner who did the actual autopsy you can't say for a fact that the man wasn't a victim.

[Goldust]

122. Definition of "homicide"

That simply means someone died directly, or indirectly, at the hands of someone else. It does not establish fault.

For instance, if someone were to punch you and you were to punch him back, causing him to fall and strike his head, or suffer internal bleeding, and die, that would be "homicide." It does not make him a "victim."

I can say for a fact that a 350 pound man doped up on booze, coke and PCP who tries to attack police officers and dies as they try to keep him from getting up again is only a victim of his own stupidity.

Even attempting to label this as police brutality makes a joke out of people who have suffered actual brutality.

[supernova]

126. No, No, No

What I am saying is there is possibly more to this story than what is being leaked out at the present time. We will have to wait for the trial to hear all sides of this issue.

It's not as cut and dried as you are trying to make it out to be. Are you in law enforcement?

[Isome]

169. It's not as cut and dried ...

That's not what you said earlier. You said it was all his fault. He was "coked up" you said. He tried to fight them you said. Don't stop now. You've made your conclusions, you evidently don't care what information may come later.

[neuvocat]

127. Someone died directly, or indirectly, at the hands of someone else.

So which is it? That the man died at the hands of someone else or that he wasn't a victim?

[diamondsoul]

176. The two are NOT intertwined no matter

how much you may wish it to be so.

He was a "victim" of his own stupidity. Drug use, obesity and following all of that with attacking armed law enforcement officers..

Damn, people, sounds suicidal to me!

Homicide is not murder in every case else we wouldn't have "justifiable homicide".

[Nlighten1]

104. From my experience

I have never done PCP but I have done coke and the effects of coke don't last 3 hours (at least for me they didn't) and the PCP was 5 hours old. I'm not sure about the maximum effect of those drugs but I can't imagine them lasting that long.

[Zuni]

114. You can feel the effects of PCP

a day later. Depending on how much you smoke, it can really jack up your brain. People who have done it a lot most likely have brain damage.
And coming down off of cocaine can create intense mood swings, especially for an addict.

[Nlighten1]

119. Was this guy an addict?

[solinvictus]

162. Addict

According to local news sites, he was sentenced to an inpatient cocaine treatment center as part of a drug conviction. He violated the terms of the treatment several times and then was sentenced to jail.

[Zuni]

115. I agree with you

If I were the cops, I would have swung first and asked questions later.

[Isome]

167. dupe

[Isome]

168. If you knew the facts, you might have gotten it right.

But you started off wrong.

[ecstatic]

64. So you favor involuntary euthanasia?

Hmm... how did you feel about the Terri Schiavo case?

[supernova]

83. Where do you get that I'm for

"involuntary euthanasia"? :shrug: I was repeating in my own words the arugment that the coroner has put out.

Who is Terri Schiavo?

[ecstatic]

90. my bad. didn't notice the question mark. Terri Schiavo

is the vegetable woman who has been kept alive for 13 years. Her husband tried to take her off the feeding tube and the Right to Lifers got Jeb Bush involved.

[supernova]

98. Oh yes,

I remember now. I had forgotten her name. Truthfully, if she had had a Healthcare Power of Attorney for Hubby, this would not have come up.

But, who am I? :shrug: I don't have a HPofA either, so I shouldn't talk.

Personally, this isn't anybody's business. I felt bad for the husband. The whole situation was traumatic enough, let aone having nosey outsiders demanding he do it their way. I'm inclided to believe medical professionals when they report actions that "seem" like sentient life but really aren't.

[ecstatic]

8. Another issue: Why does the media include his weight in every article

In some articles they call him a "400 Pound Man" in others they say 350. But why is the media hell bent on including his weight? Sheesh, I better lose some weight in case something like this happens to me.

[opihimoimoi]

11. its an attempt to make the perception of him MENACING

[liberalnurse]

39. Also to defocus off the

fact they neglected a man who was not breathing. They did not initiate CPR; or respirations! My grand-kids can do that much.....

[ArkDem]

13. Perhaps the intent is to show that he was more intimidating

because of it.

[SadEagle]

19. Does it do that?

I don't know, but my reaction is more of an opposite. Now, if they said "200 pound highly athletic...", well, that would sound threatening.

[BlueEyedSon]

23. Yeah, they could outrun him easily! nt

[Blue_Chill]

26. You ever try to wrestle a guy that out weighs you by..oh...150lbs?

If you had you'd understand why they say it. This isn't hollywood, wieght matters and it matters a hell of a lot. It's a very important fact to put things in proper perspective.

If the guy 100lbs people would rightly ask "why didn't the guy just grab the dude and cuff him?" But being that the guy weighed as much as both cops you understand why there was a struggle.

However my question is what sort of shit ball training did these two savages recieve that led them to believe the best way to catch a criminal was beat him until he lays still enough to hand cuff? I mean do these guys not learn any tricks, there was after all TWO of them. Couldn't they just hold him down until more guy arrived or something! I just don't see any possible situation where a beating seems in order. I hit here and there to keep a guy from attacking you is one thing, but to play the drums on a guys back, or worse to stabb at the guys back with a club is suspect if you ask me.

[DrWeird]

31. I have.

That extra two hundred pounds is just extra flab. Two fit police officers against one 400 lb man is more than enough to wrestle him to the ground and restrain him.

[Blue_Chill]

52. Extra flab that if directed at you can kill you

Weight makes for stronger impact on pushes and punches. It also make it harder to release yourself from the grasp of your heavy attacker if he shifts his weight over you. Added to that it make it harder for you to grab him because of his width, while you remain very easy to grab and yank in any direction.

In any case I agree with you that the cops should have been able to beat him and question the fact they resorted to the 'beat to death' tactic police seem to use all too often. Hell you can see the tactics litte sister 'beat to near death' used on the police show cops frequently.

Did you read my whole post because I didn't want to sound like I supported what the cops did, I was just explaining why weight was a factor worth mentioning.

[DrWeird]

63. Your post was a bit schizophrenic.

I used to wrestle in the heavyweight class in high school. Basically everbody over 190 lbs get's grouped together, because after that it follows the law of diminishing returns. The guy who is four hundred pounds of flab has no real advantage over the guy who is two hundred pounds and lean. Frankly, I'd rather wrestle the former.

That said the guy who is outnumbered loses any advantage to size. Unlike hollywood, you can't fight more than one person at once.

Clearly the police had the right to use batons when the guy was up and swinging. Once he was face down on the ground and surrounded they were clearly abusing their authority.

[jayfish]

102. Agreed. I Wrestled In The 198lb Class And Was Often Bumped...

up to heavyweight. I never lost a match in that class even though I was outweighed buy up to 150lbs. When you wrestle someone who outweighs you, you use their momentum and extra weight to your advantage. Police officers are trained on submission techniques and to call for backup. From what I witnessed, unless he was totally blown on PCP, this guy should have been a piece of cake to subdue.

Jay

[ecstatic]

36. So you don't think the 4 or 5 cops involved weighed 400 pounds or more

collectively?

[Blue_Chill]

48. Did you read my whole post?

I asked why they couldn't out wrestle the guy two on one and was suspicious of the fact they resorted to beating the guy as if trained to do so.

Also you can't say I'm wrong about weight being a factor. There is a good reason for including his weight in news articles .

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tom_paine]

29. Hey, DittoHead, here's some Doublethink for you

Dittohead from 1980-2001: I hate deficits. Lousy tax-and-spen Lie-berals!

Dittohead from 2001 to whenever he's told to think otherwise: Deficits are great because they keep liberals for spending.

How does one account for such Sovietized behavior from your people who profess such a hatred (which I happen to share) for Commies?

Dittohead from 1992 to whenever he's told to think otherwise: Clinton is a Commie! (no, actually closer to an Eisenhower Rerpublican than a Commie, but I would understand how you, a Bushevik and a Totalitarian, wouldn;t know that...after all your Masters didn't tell you to think that, did they?) Hillary is Hitlery! Clinton murdered Vince Foster! Clinton sold cocaine!

Dittohead from 2001 to whenever he's told to think otherwise: I just don't understand the unreasonable hatred of our glorious Fuhrer Bush?

Go back to suckle at the teat of Faux News, your Party Loyal Sub-Media which differs from Soviet Pravda only in the sophistication of how they manipulate you but not in goals or aims of Protecting the Leader with a blanket of fog, half-truths and lies...

Of course, I'd say read Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm", because they are all about YOU and your Bushevik friends (HINT: You are not Winston and you are not O'Brein, you are the bit player standing and shrieking during the Two Minute Hate), but I know someone like you doesn't read or watch anything not Bushevik-Party-Approved.

[Loonman]

14. I don't get it

With booze, PCP, cocaine, an enlarged heart and obesity?

Not the poster child of healthy living.

Besides, most people I know don't get jacked on intoxicants and dance around in a White Castle, but that's just me.

[King Coal]

16. I don't know why they didn't just shoot him.

A blown off kneecap could have saved his life.

[arewethereyet]

163. paperwork ! if you use a bullet its lots of extra forms

and most cops could not hit the kneecap even on a big ole hoss like that guy. Besides a guy on angel dust is a handfulthat does not register pain as you or I do. If guns were drawn he would have died on the scene insted of after his heart blew up.

[ecstatic]

20. This could have been a suicide attempt or even weight loss attempt

He couldn't have been using such substances for long because you can't worship two addictions at one time (food and drugs). If he had been using long, he would have been a lot thinner.

I say this was a suicide attempt OR maybe an attempt to escape his pain OR to just lose weight. My sister picked up smoking to try to lose weight. Being overweight is horrible depressing situation for many people--they would literally do any and everything to either lose the weight or escape the pain.

[Bandit]

24. Did your sister lose any weight because of her smoking?

I find the correlation between the two to be a false assumption.

[ecstatic]

40. No...because she is not yet a heavy smoker

I do believe she is addicted but I would hope that she isn't smoking more than two cigs a day. So now she's addicted to food and cigarettes. :-(

[joycep]

62. If I started back smoking on a regular basis

I would be as skinny as a rail shortly. I smoke to deal with stress and eat to deal with stress. But not both at the same time.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. SO we should give people the death penalty for that?

Are cops enforcement or judge jury and executioner?

[Loonman]

17. Does anybody know what humans are capable of when "dusted"

With PCP that is?

Anybody?

Bueller?

[BlueEyedSon]

18. Help me here, English is my second language.

<snip>
Parrott said the death will be ruled a homicide, but added that such a ruling "should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police."
</snip>

Homocide means someone killed him. The only people to interact with him were the police officers. Therefore, one or more of the officers committed the homocide. (Unless the homocide was commited by the invisible man or someone who quicky warped in and then out again from another dimension!)

So the police, one of whom is responsible for a homocide, were performing their duties using "appropriate behavior". I guess it's all in a days work to be commit a homocide. I wonder which one did it? Probly the same guy who outed Valerie Plame! Don't hold your breath about them identifying the guilty party.....

Only kidding about ESL. But the doublespeak sometimes makes English unintelligible to me.

[Walt Starr]

22. "Homicide" is always listed on the death certificates of people who

have the death penalty administered on them.

Nobody ever pays for that one, either.

If I were a betting man, I'd put everything I have on acquittal for the cops.

Please note, that does not mean I agree with it, just that this is the reality of the brutal barbarian society in which we find ourselves.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. A medical coroner should not be making that determination one way

or the other (beyond determining homocide as a cause of death, deduced scientifically). His/her duty is to determine cause of death. Other issues are subject to a fact finding mission via an investigation or trial

[Renew Deal]

21. That means that he was killed by another person.

It does not mean it was murder.

[Walt Starr]

30. What it means is, the man was beat to death

Plain and simple.

That's why preliminary results were leaked to the press, to attempt to limit the impact of the fact that this man was beat to death by six cops.

That's why an incomplete video was released.

Cincy is going to explode when the internal investigation rules in favor of the cops...

[bearfartinthewoods]

76. no it doesn't mean he was beaten to dealth

it would 'read' homicide if they had only knocked him down and piled on him as well. no internal organs were bruised. no bones broken.

the sad thing is his heart just broke from the strain.

and if a ruptured aorta was the cause of death, no CPR would have helped him. he bleed out too quickly and could never have been revivied.

[Isome]

124. His aorta ruptured because they beat him... to death.

Stop trying to save face people! Admit you were wrong and be done.

[Loonman]

125. No.

.

[Isome]

155. Yes.

[Loonman]

25. PCP

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/pcp.html

[DrWeird]

27. OMG! That's a horrible drug!

Obviously people with trace amounts of PCP in their system should be beaten to death unmercifully. 

[Loonman]

32. Whatever

I wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of any self-righteous bullshit.

[Nlighten1]

34. Were the cops aware that he was on PCP?

This is something that hasn't been discussed.

[DrWeird]

37. Does it make a differnce?

Last I heard people who used drugs had a right to a trial before being executed.

[Romulus]

57. or not

In suburban MD outside DC, at least two innocent people have been beaten to death in broad daylight by PCP-heads within the last year. Both in front of shocked bystanders who just sat and gaped at the incidents. (MD :eyes:) One of the 'beaters' was shot dead after he tried charging a just-off-duty DC cop who was driving home to MD and who witnessed that murder.

PCP is no joke. Witnesses to that incident said the PCP-guy looked "crazy and out of control." That guy killed his victim with one punch to the head/face.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A51950-2003Apr7¬Found=true

But on Sunday night, as Stokes, 53, motored slowly toward home on a heavily traveled Prince George's County road, another driver refused to be patient, authorities said. In what a police spokeswoman called "one of the most brutal" road-rage incidents in memory in Prince George's, a driver with a long record of alleged assaults and drug crimes repeatedly rammed Stokes's sport utility vehicle from behind until it stalled, then got out and beat Stokes to death with his fists.

An off-duty D.C. police officer who happened upon the scene ordered Phillip Hansberry, 41, to stop hitting Stokes, according to investigators. They said that Hansberry charged at the officer and that the officer fatally shot him.

Police said that Stokes, a slightly built man who had a few minor strokes in the past year, stood no chance against the 6-foot, 200-pound Hansberry.

*snip/more*


An off-duty D.C. police officer driving home noticed Phillip straddling and beating Clifton and decided to pull over. The officer could tell that the smaller man was already unconscious and that it looked as if the pickup driver was beating a lifeless body. The officer identified himself and told the attacker to stop. Phillip, the driver of the pickup instead continued beating the driver of the SUV and then got up and charged at the officer. The officer, feeling threatened pulled his service revolver and fired a fatal shot into the chest of the pickup driver. The pickup driver was taken to Prince George's Hospital Center where he died from the gunshot wound shortly after arrival. The SUV driver was beaten to death in the middle of the road. Authorities have referred to this incident as "one of the most brutal" road-rage incidents in recent memory.

The driver of the SUV has been described as, "frail". He had heart surgery ten years ago and since then did things at a leisurely pace. He also had a few minor strokes over the past few years. He knew he was a slow and cautious driver and just figured that if people needed to they would drive around him. The driver of the pickup truck, Phillip Hansberry often lived in Capitol Heights, he frequently changed his addresses, had a long record of assaults, and had been arrested on drug, assault and theft charges more than a dozen times since the 1980's. One of his arrests was for possession of the dissociative PCP.

[Walt Starr]

38. Don't they carry around little drug test kits

Hold a piece of paper in the air, BANGO, they know what drug somebody's on.

/sarcasm

[uncle ray]

51. to put it bluntly...

he could have been a 400 pound retard.

that kind of force should be reserved for people strongly suspected of committing violent crimes, not being a nuisance in public, which this boils down to.

[Nlighten1]

61. Exactly.

But I guess he crossed the line from public nuisance to violent criminal when he charged the cops.

At least that is how some people see it. I don't.

[Walt Starr]

77. That's how I would see it

if there wasn't 96 seconds missing from the record of the incident just prior to his attack on the cops.

For all I know, he may have been defending himself from unprovoked attacks made by the cops.

Methinks something is rotten in the State of Ohio...

[Isome]

132. I got your self-righteous bullshit....

That would be your latest posts. What happened to logic around here... wouldn't want THAT to get in the way of self-righteousness.

The man was 350 to 400lbs. No dispute on that. They said they found PCP in the preliminary autopsy and the final autopsy. No dispute on that. But what does that mean? It means they found PCP in his tissue. At over 300lbs, he could have done PCP 5 years ago and it would still be in his soft tissue. The autopsy report did not, does not, will not say he was under the influence of PCP, it'll conveniently say only & repeatedly they found trace amounts in his blood.

GTF out of here with the face saving. It's cracked and on the floor, in tiny little pieces!! You were wrong then and you're wrong now!!

Added: ? Oh' they're so brave. They knew they couldn't out manuever him because he's so agile, so one stood in back and one stood in front and beat the hell out of him him with their metal nightsticks.

[NicoleM]

150. According to the coroner,

he had "intoxicating levels of cocaine, PCP and methanol in his blood."

[Isome]

152. Given Cincinnati's history of protecting out of control police

The part of the article that says:

The ruling came shortly after lawyers for Jones' family called for an independent investigation, claiming the coroner has mishandled past cases.

has far more credence than an official report that comfortably covers the police. Why? Because of this:

The information damaging to Jones' reputation being put out at this early stage of the investigation, Lawson complained, is reminiscent of the 1999 case of Michael Carpenter, an unarmed black driver from Mount Airy shot to death by police.

Officials later said Carpenter had cocaine in his system, but in court, a state toxicology expert said the drug had been ingested days earlier and that Carpenter was not high when he was killed.

It wouldn't be the first time law enforcement in Cincy bend over backwards to cover their ass.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Prove the incidence of it's deadliness in patients with heart conditions

[Character Assassin]

74. I'm not a doctor, but I do have some experience here.....

I've been confronted in the past by people under the influence, and, in this case, he was likely smoking 'amps', or MJ joints laced with PCP.

Both of them can and usually do raise the heart rates of the user, and very often with PCP this is really obvious by the user being a sweaty, slimy mess, with persperation increased to an unmistakable extent, just like someone on meth.

A. He had an enlarged heart.
B. He had recently, if not immediately before used two substances that can dramatically increase RHR.
C. He was obese and likely had artertial problems from his diet.
D. His exertion level during the confrontation with police was obviously (from the tape) very high.

Not exactly a recipe for success, IMHO.

If it is clear to me that it is more than likely (based on behavior, speech, appearance, etc...) that somebody has been dusting, there is also the high probability that drawing a firearm will end up in a shooting death. , as the state of mind of such an individual is unpredictable to the point where the appearance of a gun can cause him/her to go completely out of control.

From what little I've seen (just the tapes), the officers clearly avoided striking the perp's head, and they never drew their weapons.

The jury is still out on this one, pardon the pun, and it's likely a vote for aquittal when they return.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

107. Very complex statement but allow me to adress a few points

Both of them can and usually do raise the heart rates of the user, and very often with PCP this is really obvious by the user being a sweaty, slimy mess, with persperation increased to an unmistakable extent, just like someone on meth.

True but heart disease and stress can cause same said symptoms...


A. He had an enlarged heart.

true

B. He had recently, if not immediately before used two substances that can dramatically increase RHR.

apparently it was hours prior...so again it takes more than what we know to determine the effects left on his system especially considering his large size which would mitigate some of the effects of drugs

C. He was obese and likely had artertial problems from his diet.

from his diet is speculative...arterial is a matter of needing further info...not all individuals with enlarged hearts suffer from vascular disease.

D. His exertion level during the confrontation with police was obviously (from the tape) very high.

True so was the stress level from being repeatedly struck...cops retire on medical disability from the stress of that all the time (trust me)


I would tend to agree that the officers will likely be cleared but that is based on the history of high profile type cases...if this weren't so widely reported the results to the deceased might actually be more favorable based on my past experiences.

[Character Assassin]

135. With meth and/or PCP, the perspiration is, in fact, more slippery

This comes from sweating out the impurities/extenders/call-them-what-you-will in meth or dust after it's been stepped on a few times. It can literally make it much more difficult to control someone physically, as one's grip tends to slip at contact with their skin. It's most pronouced in the facial area, often referred to as 'the grimies'. If someone's face is really shiny, and they're acting strange, it's a good bet their on something like this crap.

He had recently, if not immediately before used two substances that can dramatically increase RHR.

apparently it was hours prior...so again it takes more than what we know to determine the effects left on his system especially considering his large size which would mitigate some of the effects of drugs

Right, no way to tell yet. However, he was apparently in possession of three amps, and this indicates to me an habitual user together with all the attendent circulatory problems this brings.

C. He was obese and likely had artertial problems from his diet.

from his diet is speculative...arterial is a matter of needing further info...not all individuals with enlarged hearts suffer from vascular disease.

Quite correct, but I am assuming, based only on my own experience, that this was an unfortunate coinciding of the drugs, his heart and his circulatory system in general. He was, after all, very short and well over 300 lbs.

D. His exertion level during the confrontation with police was obviously (from the tape) very high.

True so was the stress level from being repeatedly struck...cops retire on medical disability from the stress of that all the time (trust me)

First off, a pet peeve of mine is that yes, there are too many out-of-shape fat-ass cops. You'd figure with potentially life-threatening physical confrontations possible every day, they'd take it more seriously. Although I don't like the imagery very much, a cop is to greater or lesser degrees, a street warrior, and he/she damn well better take that seriously and not rely simply on firearms. If I can't walk out onto the street comfortable in the knowledge that I can take down at least over 95% of the people out there, I'm coming up short.

I have seen cops retire from burn-out that stems from the stress inherent to constant confrontation, both physical and mental. These are the guys who make the right choice. It's the fools that stay on and don't do anything about it who often result in hair-trigger incidents going bad.

Sorry to vent.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

138. No major issue and mostly agreement with many of your statements

On the vent part:
agreed and communities and departments are often lax on their "fitness for duty" evals because they don't WANT to know. Good cops are hard to find.

My VENT..the PULL towards paramilitary style policing versus community oriented policing LEADS to these occurences, burns cops out, puts them MORE at risk, makes them MORE feared rather than cooperated with thereby resulting in more violent outcomes.

Smooch snookums!

[Character Assassin]

143. There is a reason for that most cops won't admit: the WOD

It's a failure, it needlessly endangers officers, it has eviscerated the Consitution wholesale, and has involved the police in so many more areas of people's lives than they used to be in that they fundamental national image of police has changed probably more than any other single profession in the past, oh, 30 years.

And we're still working on getting rid of run-on sentences in reports. Ba-duhmp!

My experience is that the most gung-ho roughrider types gravitate towards narcotics and SWAT outfits. I've often thought (but never said out loud) that if they hadn't have become LEOs, they be playing for the other team.

That ESPECIALLY holds true for the mouth-breathers who work for the DEA.

Good cops are hard to find.

Certain people I've dated always said that hard cops were good to find.

Do you have any idea how the goddamn quickly the whole 'cop fantasy' can get? If I had a dime for every time...... ;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

147. Can I borrow one of your old uniforms for my next date?

I agree..in fact in a sense this guy was a victim of the WOD...although it is too soon to tell entirely.

WOD has made cops the enemy in many communities rather than the protector which biurs the lines between enforcement and perp.

It has also emboldened cops who have a bent towards violence.

WOD has resulted in many funerals for cops and others.


that's what I like about you..we vary in approach but often find the middle ground :D

[Character Assassin]

157. Ummm....ok. I'm 6'3", 245. Might be like a tent on you.

Glad, as always, that we agree.

[redqueen]

158. Speaking of the WOD

Kucinich has already espoused decriminalizing mj

The beginning of the end of the "WOD"... tragic farce that it is

[Bake]

28. Cincinnati will whitewash it for the cops

And Over-The-Rhine will explode. I've seen it before (not too long ago actually; maybe a couple of years). Something about the Cinci cops; they can't just beat somebody, they HAVE to beat him to death.

In a great moment of irony, former LA Chief Gates was on MSNBC last night saying, "I think the officers acted entirely reasonably and professionallly."

Bake

[Blue-Jay]

41. I just got through listening to the coroner on the radio.

The guy was overweight, had a pre-existing heart condition, aside from that PCP, Cocaine, and trace amounts of embalming fluid were found in his system. The PCP was ingested no longer than 3 hours prior to the TOD. The coke was injested no longer than 5 hours prior to the TOD. The injuries sustained during the struggle were described as "not deadly". His death was due to his own exertions in tandem with the issues I mentioned above. He died of heart failure. He wasn't beaten to death. Had he not resisted arrest, he'd be alive today (but probably not for too much longer, due to his excessive abuse of his own body).

If this had been a white guy; Not news. Period.

[Loonman]

42. Thank you

Boy, I sure love the facts as opposed to phoney knee-jerk reactionary baloney.


I was going to ask if anybody would give a shit if the guy was a a fat drugged up white guy, but then I knew my question would have been rhetorical.

[redqueen]

47. And this is exactly why white Southerners are leaving our party in droves

They sense this keenly.

Most of us pretend it's not true, or ignore it altogether.

Which is why I posted yesterday about how they're USING stories like this to distract and divide people.

It's not that nobody CARES if it's a white guy. It's because nobody KNOWS when it happens to the white guy, because it's not NEWS. It's only NEWS if it's a black guy. Better to stir the pot.

Keep the people distracted by their own selfishness and resistance to uniting in common cause.

[Nlighten1]

66. opiate for the masses

Keep them sweating the little stuff.

[mzmolly]

161. So f-ing true, the media loves to insight racial tension ....

It's good for ratings.

They'll milk this shit for months on end.

[ecstatic]

69. The cops should not be beating anyone to death, regardless of race

But this type of thing happens to blacks far too often. For every case that makes national news, there are hundreds of cases that don't. Imagine how things would have been if camcorders had not been invented.

[Nlighten1]

43. Did they say why the autopsy report said it was a homicide?

Normally if someone dies of "natural" causes, in this case his drugged up, agitated, over-weight, and heart problems, it isn't labeled a homicide.

[Blue-Jay]

49. The coroner didn't mention the word "homicide"

That's not his job. He determined the cause of death, and had a press conference to relay his findings to the public.

From what I understand, either the family or a third party (I didn't catch who) is going to request a second autopsy. I'll be interested in those findings.

[Nlighten1]

71. Sorry

this thread was started with the topic that it was called a homicide. So the coroner didn't say that...I wonder where it came from?

[redqueen]

75. Now THAT is an excellent question. n/t

[Blue-Jay]

86. I dunno where it came from.

I'd assume the county prosecutor's office, but I'm not sure.

[Nlighten1]

101. From LBN...coroner states "homicide"

with a caveat though...

The coroner said Wednesday that a struggle with police was the primary cause in the death of a 350-pound black man whose scuffle with officers outside a fast-food restaurant has prompted outcry among black activists in Cincinnati.

Hamilton County Coroner Carl Parrott said Nathaniel Jones, 41, suffered from an enlarged heart, obesity and had intoxicating levels of cocaine, PCP and methanol in his blood.

Parrott said the death will be ruled a homicide, but added that such a ruling "should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. There are no shortage of medical experts that could challenge those

statements some of which are quite speculative and frankly smell. How did the coroner arrive at the conclusion that it his struggle versus the beating?

How much cocaine was in his system?
How long standing was his heart disease?
If Joe Schmoe has a heart condition and I shoot him, can I argue that he would have died anyway?

[Blue-Jay]

65. So, you suspect the coroner is lying. Why?

Is it because cops are generally racist and like beating people up?

Quite a few of us are quick to judge the actions of the police without having all the facts. I try to avoid that trap without using ridiculous words like "execution" or drawing inaccurate comparisons.

Let's look at it this way: My car was stolen about a year ago by some crackhead. My brother, a local cop, saw my car being driven the following morning by said crackhead. He pulled the guy over. The crackhead ran, and my brother caught up and bulldogged him in a parking lot, causing the guy to shit his pants. By some of the logic I see here, my bro should have been sent the dry cleaning bill. (true story, BTW)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

80. No I am not implying anything about the cops but for one thing

Paramilitary style policing is a form of policing I disagree with since it is far more impersonal than community oriented policing. Community oriented policing might have helped in this situation since communities and police can work together to determine who the dangerous people are versus who the drug addicted nuts are.

As far as the coroner's statements, he was politicizing them.

I don't make automatic assumptions about individual cops but have been on the legal team of a number of police brutality cases.....in most a settlement was reached. Communities pay HUGE sums of money in payouts due to my first paragaph NOT being the case.

[Blue-Jay]

85. I listened to the coroner, did you?

He was being very matter-of-fact about his findings. He actually stated (as best as I can remember) that the cause of death was directly related to the altercation; the physical exertion of his resistance, coupled with his condition. I didn't hear any politicizing, and believe me, I was listening for it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. I've already addressed this aspect in another post

Matter of fact is it is homocide based on scientific protocols. Not so matter of fact and subject to inquiry is the second statement. Distinguishing physical exertion from beating is VERY difficult to do...that statement was indeed political and NOT scientific...it requires MORE information that one can ascertain in a few short days with only witness statements and unless he has specialized training in both coronary and vascular diseases beyond his current credentials, he is most likely not the individual to answer it decisively and with any degree of medical certainty.

[Zuni]

120. I agree

this man brought his own death upon himself.

[redqueen]

44. Already praying

Black leaders need to urge calm as well. Nothing is solved by riots. That's like Palestinians using violence to try to solve their problems. They merely give the more militant among the Israelis an excuse to become more militant.

Regardless of whether or not the cops knew he was on PCP, they knew he was not responding to being clubbed the way a normal person would. So my estimate is that yes, they probably figured he was on drugs. Someone that out of shape being able to throw two guys around, and lift themselves partway up off the ground WHILE being beaten with clubs? Yeah, it's a pretty good bet they figured he was 'hopped up' on something.

They probably also weren't very well trained. Probably hell, they weren't! Seriously, though... there's no way they'd shoot this guy in the leg to keep him down. They'd probably pay hell for that as well. Still they might have been able to use other methods to calm him... I don't know for sure - haven't seen the whole tape.

One thing is certain -- if there are riots, it will only make things worse. An excuse for martial law? Naaahhhhh...

And on and on it goes...

Kucinich & your Department of Peace... how badly we need you.
:(

[MISSDem]

56. when the police tell you to do something

you need to do it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. What if you have a developmental disability ir don't speak the language

it isn't that simple.

[Loonman]

87. Besides having nothing to do with this case

I'm sure people can figure out when not to resist.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

94. I was responding to the individual's very broad and general statement

I'm sure people can figure out when not to resist.

No you aren't...you simply believe it to be true.

[Loonman]

100. As do you...

Works both ways.

[redqueen]

72. That's pretty much a no-brainer

But some people are so out of their minds on drugs, or maybe even borderline retarded... my husband is addicted to COPS (barf) and I see people ALL THE TIME on that show ignoring the instructions given by the police. I think most of them just plain don't listen. Sad.

Either way, it's a very unfortunate thing that happened and I hope it doesn't result in any more violence.

[Isome]

146. Why do Black leaders have to URGE calm?

Tell the WHITE police officers to SLOW their fucking roll in beating, shooting, & sodomizing Black males and PERPER SPRAYING Black females!! Stop that shit. They're the ones who need to be calm... then the victimized and their families wouldn't have reason to be upset.

You spoke about white folks leaving the party, did it ever occur to you that Black folks are leaving too? But not because Democrats care too much about them, but because of ridiculous statements like these.

White people need to stop being so damned scared of everything. When white folks are scared they'll fucking set off a nuclear bomb and kill every man, woman and child in sight. When it's local fear, they'll just get together and beat or shoot anything that moves. Calm down white folks! Where are the white leaders to urge calm in the white community... ya'll are too violent!

[redqueen]

159. Because things could get out of hand, and that's just what 'they' want

I think we already know that police brutality is a big problem. We've been fighting it for centuries (Pinkertons, anyone?)

And yes, I understand that both blacks and whites are abandoning the party because they're being played against each other through the exploitation and sensationalization of just this type of situation.

I understand your rage, but honestly... white people riot for sports losses or the loss of beer drinking rights... and yes, white leaders (all leaders, actually) should speak out when those riots occur. It's kind of hard to predict, though... which crowds for which teams will decide to start overturning cars or whatnot. And due to the reality of the game being played, those situations are not exploited or sensationalized the same way this one is.

However, given that the 'system' LOVES to perpetrate the 'blacks riot all the time' or 'blacks are violent' crap, it's incumbent upon ethnic leaders (GOD how I wish MLK was still around) to call on minorities of all colors to rise above, and protest peacefully. No one can deny that minorities get the shaft at nearly every turn, and as long as excuses are provided (again you can use the Palestinian / Israeli situation as an example), then the vicious cycle will continue, and get worse.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not taking sides here. On the contrary -- I wish we all could recognize when we're being played against each other and stop being pawns in the game.

We all have much more in common than we're manipulated into thinking. And by allowing ourselves to be played on by having our 'buttons' pushed, we're being made fools of.

[Isome]

166. You're missing the point.

Where are the white leaders to call for calm among white people who perpetuate the violence that leads to the upset among people of African descent in America? Where are they? Why is one group obligated to suffer injustice and remain calm, while the offending group isn't admonished to stop their egregious behavior? Where is it written that the burden is always ours to bear?

Don't get too idealistic. If MLK were still alive he'd be called an anachronism by the right and the right's sympathizers. He'd be derided as out of touch and no longer effective. His past extra-marital affairs would be brought up frequently to prove he's not worthy of his position as a "leader". He wasn't universally loved while he was alive, despite the johnny-come-latelies who now misquote him frequently and opportunistically invoke his name, and he'd be even less so if he were still with us.

It's not admirable not to 'take sides'. There is a right side and wrong side here. It's wrong to abuse authority. It's wrong to view an entire group as inherently more violent, or more likely to be violent, and to shrug off their deaths that come at the hands of those paid to preserve order in society. It's wrong to dismiss the obvious pattern of abuse (both in Cincinnati & across the nation) in an effort to appear fair, at the expense of actual fairness to the victims. It's wrong to feign blindness to the disparate treatment received by non-whites, at the hands of law enforcement and the judicial system. It's wrong to practice conscientous ignorance about the wholesale coverups for police officers, that come in the form of dehumanizing the victim and/or smearing their reputation.

It's wrong to prefer an absence of tension, to the presence of justice.

What happened in Cincinnati is not an attempt to play 'one against the 'other'. It's a miserable fact of life. It happens all too frequently with almost unvarying results: no charges against the police, or acquittals on all charges.

The game of pitting groups who have more in common than not, against each other can be seen when the GOP tells it's people that Democrats are taking away their liberties, as they sanctimoniously champion the Patriot Act. It can be seen when they maliciously push legislation to de-fund public schools, which their base relies on as much as ours, while lamenting the way liberals want to spend their hard earned tax money on "government social programs".

This isn't part of that game. This isn't a game; just ask Nathaniel Jones' family. Expecting them to suffer in silence, and others to stand silently by, can rightly be called playing someone for a fool.

Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth said, "Too many people are comfortable at this going on. We want to create some discomfort. We're saying this kind of thing has got to come to an end.''

[redqueen]

171. Not missing the point.

"Why is one group obligated to suffer injustice and remain calm, while the offending group isn't admonished to stop their egregious behavior? Where is it written that the burden is always ours to bear?"

Of course there is no written law that one group is obligated to suffer. Since police brutality is largely successfully covered up it has not been dealt with or addressed in the manner it should be by anyone in power regardless of color anywhere in the world up to this point in time. (Susan Bandes wrote an excellent expose about the systemic nature of police brutality and its relation to segregated areas. Click here to read her well-annotated article which details how widespread, systematic brutality and corruption is able to remain hidden despite the prevalence of it. A more comprehensive set of articles on the subject can be found here.) This issue does need attention, no doubt about it. And it does happen more to minorities, which is the case all over the world, throughout history. Whether it’s different types of French people, Slavs, or whatever, there has always been one group oppressing another.

However, if we as American citizens allow ourselves to be divided along lines of color, there is no arguing that this IS the result of successful manipulation. Both MLK and Gandhi preached nonviolence. Nonviolence is the ONLY way to overcome this kind of abuse. Resorting to violence only gives the perpetrators of this kind of injustice MORE of a reason to continue and even INCREASE the violence. Reference, once again, Palestine. How much like them do we want to become? Things can get worse, or they can get better, but the choice is up to the oppressed. The oppressor has no reason to try to change the system. In actuality, their funding and power only INCREASE when there is violence / criminal behavior.

“It's not admirable not to 'take sides'. There is a right side and wrong side here. It's wrong to abuse authority. It's wrong to view an entire group as inherently more violent, or more likely to be violent, and to shrug off their deaths that come at the hands of those paid to preserve order in society. It's wrong to dismiss the obvious pattern of abuse (both in Cincinnati & across the nation) in an effort to appear fair, at the expense of actual fairness to the victims. It's wrong to feign blindness to the disparate treatment received by non-whites, at the hands of law enforcement and the judicial system. It's wrong to practice conscientous ignorance about the wholesale coverups for police officers, that come in the form of dehumanizing the victim and/or smearing their reputation.”

I’m not trying to be admired. The reason I don’t ‘take sides’ is because we are all humans, and just as sure as the fact that we’re not all innocent, not all of the police are guilty. Making enemies on either side is counterproductive. We MUST unite as people, and until we see ourselves in that way, we will continue to shoot ourselves in the collective foot, to the great satisfaction of those that profit from our misery.

Of course it’s wrong to view any group as a collective, and label them with whatever stereotype is used. However this happens all the time, and not just one group is guilty. It’s human nature to seek patterns, so it happens. It’s something you have to be vigilant against. Many here on DU see all Republicans as stupid or evil. This isn’t true, though, is it?

I have not suggested, and I believe (hope) others have not intended to suggest, that we shrug off the death of this man, or the death or any person. Nor has anyone attempted to deny that there is a problem with police brutality in general. The effort to try to remain calm and rational is only an attempt to get at the true nature of the problem. Viewing it in its most simplistic terms is fruitless. And there is never a reason to give up the effort to be fair. I disagree strongly with you on that point. Being fair is not at the expense of any victim. On the contrary, with fairness comes understanding, which furthers peace. Similarly no one is feigning blindness. I think you’re reacting emotionally to this, which I understand. When you categorize the only victims worthy of discussion or consideration solely on the basis of their skin color, aren’t you minimizing any victim of brutality who doesn’t happen to have that color of skin? And what does this say about the perpetrators of police brutality who aren’t white? Are they to be given no scrutiny? Certainly you don’t think that it’s only white officers who have been guilty of brutality…

No one is practicing conscientious ignorance of cover-ups. What is happening is a cause and reaction situation. When this situation provokes the expected overreaction, which it is now doing, people on the ‘other side’, in other words those that wish to have a reasonable reaction, will similarly overreact, which results in the types of comments you’re interpreting as a dismissal of the situation entirely. In my view, the family of the victim should be devastated. An entire community should be disturbed and moved to productive and meaningful action. But an entire nation? Wrapped up in useless (to them) emotional anguish? This is unreasonable. One man has died, and that’s truly sad. But can you really not understand how I and others on this board may lament that such outrage was not shown for the thousands of dead in Iraq? Or are their lives not worth as much? And if not, why?

Nothing is cut and dry. There is clearly a case to be made that these officers were poorly trained, and were not simply abusing authority. Equally, there is a case to be made that this man was treated with undue harshness, and his death was precipitated by neglect. We just don’t know enough right now to be sure either way. Because there is not enough information for a certain decision, we MUST avoid reacting to this situation. The police don’t have to worry. They’re not about to be incited to riot. The community is. IF that should happen, then the hand will have been played according to plan, IMO.

“It's wrong to prefer an absence of tension, to the presence of justice.”

IMO justice cannot be reached while a high degree of tension exists. As long as both sides are incited to react and think emotionally instead of rationally, progress will never be made, and the game will continue as planned.

“What happened in Cincinnati is not an attempt to play 'one against the 'other'. It's a miserable fact of life. It happens all too frequently with almost unvarying results: no charges against the police, or acquittals on all charges.”

IMO it is a game. It is not an attempt, it is a successful manipulation. Yes, it happens frequently, and yes, the results are predictable.

“This isn't part of that game. This isn't a game; just ask Nathaniel Jones' family. Expecting them to suffer in silence, and others to stand silently by, can rightly be called playing someone for a fool.”

No, it isn’t a part of that game. But it is the same game, with different pawns. The pawns in that game are divided along ideological lines. The pawns in this game are divided along mostly color lines. Also class lines. No one is asking the family to suffer in silence. Again, I perceive that you’re reacting emotionally since this request has not been made. It is well and good that the family seeks out justice. However, inciting a community to violence is self-destructive.

“Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth said, "Too many people are comfortable at this going on. We want to create some discomfort. We're saying this kind of thing has got to come to an end.''”

This kind of statement, IMO, is irresponsible. Maybe it’s been edited. I don’t know what else he said. It is a fact that this should be brought to an end. However, stating that ‘discomfort’ must be created, without a specification of what kind of discomfort is to be created, or who should be the target of such discomfort, could be interpreted as an incendiary statement, just as certain posts on this board contain such arguably incendiary statements.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Consider this

If the individual has heart disease, how MEDICALLY POSSIBLE OR PROBABLE is it that he also has hypertension?
Which is more contributory to raising blood pressure causing the heart to pump faster than it can accomodate blod flow?
Drug ingestion from several hours ago or an imminent beating?

I am not saying the cops are guilty, I am simply saying this is NOWHERE NEAR defined nor over.

[Nlighten1]

67. Not only that but

he had 5 or 6 cops sitting on top of him for several minutes and when they got up he wasn't breathing.

[opihimoimoi]

70. We live in a Bizzarro World. We got women coming into the Hospitals

with shoe marks all over their bodies still clinging to the DVD Players they were attempting to purchase at WalMarts Sale.

Now we got a guy with baton marks all over HIS body ala Rodney King, trouble is, this dude died.

and we got a Prez in the Oval Pig Pen who had marks all over his FACE....? from PRETZELS??? or from falling off the mech bull?


"Watch my Drive"

[mmm]

60. those cops waled on him over and above the call of duty

two cops in full battle gear should be able to subdue
a fat man without making him a human pinata.

[opihimoimoi]

73. 2 skinny cops can out run one fat guy any day in the week

[Loonman]

78. A 97 lb weakling on PCP can deck 7 built guys, easy

You can speculate, I can do that, too.

[opihimoimoi]

82. Some smart lawyer gonna get the family and himself very rich

Cincy Police Dept gonna pay thru the nose

Hint, guess who sits on the jury??

[Walt Starr]

89. I have two predictions

1) The cops will be cleared by the internal investigation of any wrongdoing in this incident.

2) Cincinnati will erupt in what may possibly be the ugliest riot in American history.

I'm absolutely 100% certain of number 1.

I sincerely hope I am dead wrong on number 2.

[Ripley]

95. No to number 2.

My in-law relatives live there and basically say the media is hyping this more than the local black population.

My only question to those who claim the man was a poor innocent victim...have you ever known someone on PCP? I have and his behavior was such that I saw him lift the backend of a truck off the ground and nearly throw it (he was only about 5'8").

I have yet to hear someone answer how they, as a cop called to a scene with this guy present, would have subdued him? Or do folks just think he should have been left there in front of a business harassing customers and making the employees feel unsafe?

The guy had loads of heart-impairing drugs in his body, was extremely overweight and was sleeping outside in 30 degree weather. Then he violently attacked the cops first. Why didn't he just sit down? Oh yeah, PCP makes people go crazy.

I heard they used pepper spray to no avail, so what was left for them to do? Shoot him? Frankly I think they should have used a tazor, but it probably would have induced a heart attack, too. Maybe just a big elephant tranquilizer, oh yeah, that may have induced a heart attack, too.

I give up. I guess on DU cops are always the enemy.

[Walt Starr]

99. I hope you're right

Because of the missing minute and a half, I fear you'll be wrong.

I will keep hoping, despite my fear.

[redqueen]

108. "the media is hyping this more than the local black population"

Confirms my worst fears.

We're being played.

Why are so many buying into this game?

:(

[Loonman]

109. Because that's what they want us to do

:(

[Ripley]

113. I don't know why so many are buying into this.

The media is trying to start a riot in Cincinnati.

They will try to start one if Koby gets convicted.

It seems as tho the media has been taken over by the Separatist Movement that still thinks the race war is coming. But in reality, it is just the sad fact that the media doesn't do any hard journalism anymore. They simply do the "National Enquirer" work of sloppy, titillating story telling. They get their ratings and to hell with the consequences of uninformed citizens or more importantly mis-informed citizens that go into the streets for lame or artificial reasons.

Let me ask, which is more important to march in the streets for...thousands of civilians killed in an illegal occupation by our government or the death (due to multiple circumstances) of a crazed PCP user?

[redqueen]

145. That's exactly what I mean

Combine your statement re: thousands of deaths in an illegal invasion (funded by our taxes), with the thread about capitalism being a con job...

So easily distracted...

Makes me wanna holler, throw up both my hands...

[Isome]

149. You're getting pretty scary....

e o m

[redqueen]

172. How so?

I've briefly described two situations which should create uproarious outrage in the citizenry.

Contrast that with the amount of media attention to incite uproarious outrage at this incident within an exploited segment of the citizenry, which will not reduce police brutality, but in fact will only serve to increase the amount of rationalization done by others in order to to excuse it.

The song by Marvin Gaye I referenced never fails to start up in my mental jukebox when I consider situations such as this one. In my heart and mind I know the situation is not hopeless. But I'll be damned if sometimes it doesn't seem like it would be 'sane' and 'realistic' to accept that it is, and bury my head in the sand.

[Booberdawg]

130. Oh I sincerely hope you're wrong about #2

If Cincinnati does erupt in riots over this then it would only be the trigger for past injustices by the Cincinnati police. As I recall from reading past threads on this case, it seems there is already tension in Cincinnati because of police singling out blacks for heavy handed treatment and excessive use of force. I would hate to see a case in which a hyped up suspect initiated an attack against the officers be the impetus.

[Walt Starr]

140. That's my fear. So much anger for so long.

It's been building and when it is let loose, it'll be very ugly.

Hopefully it'll get defused.

[Loonman]

96. Since when did objectivity take a back seat

To knee-jerk reactionism?

COPS BAD - RESISTING ALLEGED CRIMINALS GOOD
COPS BAD - RESISTING ALLEGED CRIMINALS GOOD
COPS BAD - RESISTING ALLEGED CRIMINALS GOOD
COPS BAD - RESISTING ALLEGED CRIMINALS GOOD
COPS BAD - RESISTING ALLEGED CRIMINALS GOOD

There, I am now cleansed.


By the way, where's Jesse and Big Al on this?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

103. You aren't demonstrating any yourself

By the way, where's Jesse and Big Al on this?

What do you mean by that? I request you explain the reasoning behind that question so I can be objective and not jump to a conclusion as to the inference.

[Loonman]

105. It means exactly what it means

I find the fact that they have not made any statements on this issue to be telling.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. What does it tell you?

I see lots of speculation in that response

[Loonman]

111. It tells me that

It tells me that "death by beating" has not been established yet.

Unless you count in here.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

117. I haven't made that statement myself

but you are assuming since no statement was made, none is forthcoming. I have noticed you making a number of conclusionary statements. Most of my comments in this thread have been questions or statements that further inquiry is required.

[Nlighten1]

118. You certainly are bombastic

about your opinion. You should pause and ask yourself if you might be wrong with your assumption on the facts of the matter. If you don't pursue every available option you can't be objective about what happened.

People who deal in such black and white views on life need to reflect on themselves a bit more. Black and white is the exception not the rule.

[Loonman]

106. I don't like officer buzz-kill any more than anyone else

But this looks like a windmill joust to me.

[Padraig18]

116. Be careful.

I asked our coroner a bit ago what is the significance of the ruling, and he said, "Not neccessarily any significance; all it means is that he came to his death as a result of the acts of another. Those acts may be either lawful, or unlawful--- that is for the prosecuting attorney to decide, or a grand jury."

Let's be cautious here...

[Nlighten1]

121. In other words...

get me Johnny Cochran...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

128. There isn't enough info to conclude much at all

All we know is an overweight person with heart disease and drugs in his system was in an altercation and is dead and his death was ruled a homocide.

We do NOT know the source of his heart disease.
We do NOT know the source of his obesity..it coulc have been CAUSED by the heart disease rather than the reverse (cardiomyopathy can result from something as inocuous as an insect bite)
We do NOT know his past drug history.
We do NOT know the history of the officers involved.
We do NOT know what happened for 96 seconds.
We DON'T KNOW more than we do.

In summary, I agree with you, P.

[Padraig18]

175. We had an ananogous thing happen here last year.

We had a guy who fought with the police and suffered a cardiac arrest just after he was brought into the police station. Thank God cool heads prevailed; the coroner immediately contacted the State Police and the FBI and asked them to investigate. That was done, and a special prosecutor was appointed to oversee the investigation. When all the evidence was collected, etc., it was presented to the grand jury who vote not to indict the officers, since the primary cause of death was cardiac arrest due to an acute, mixed drug and alcohol reaction. The forensic pathologist who did the autopsy provided the crucial testimony, and I suspect that may well prove the case here, as well.

[Walt Starr]

131. I very seriously doubt if this will ever get to a prosecutor or grand jury

I stand behind my prediction that the internal investigation will clear the cops completely.

[SmokeyBlues]

139. Just when I give you a tip of the hat...

you predict something that we all know is a sure bet! Big risk you taking there Walt!

[Catherine Vincent]

133. Where's Jesse and Big Al?

Smells like fucken freep talk.

[neuvocat]

134. A lot of it does.

I never thought I'd see anyone hear defending someone who beats a person repeatedly with lethal weapons.

[DrWeird]

137. Ehh, all the usual suspects.

Minus one.

I'd like to say I'm surprised. But I'm not.

[Ripley]

144. Oh, so you think I'm a freeper huh?

Gee what an open-minded person you are. If someone happens to disagree with you on one issue, oh wait, it may be two....you are labelled freeper.

This is the reason liberals are failing. This thread is a perfect example of why.

DUers love to talk about the lockstep in which the republicans march. Well, folks DUers do it too. It is as if you believe there is a rulebook by which we must all follow. For example, always stand with the lawbreaker, never the law. Maybe when you own a business, you'll get it.

[redqueen]

148. *sigh*

"This is the reason liberals are failing. This thread is a perfect example of why."

You're right, you know.

Conservatives don't have a monopoly on reactionary thinking.

It's kind of like muscle memory in your mind. Or maybe not.

*sigh*

[Randi_Listener]

153. Anti-investigation

Someone dies in the hands of the cops and you sound like you don't want the matter investigates and hope it just goes away.

The matter should be investigated even if someone came out of the White Castle with an Uzi in one hand and a grenade launcher in the other.

[Randi_Listener]

151. Exactly.

Get the Freeper Creeper zapper for this fucking troll shit.

[Catherine Vincent]

136. It's really unfortunate this had to happen.

It's too bad the cops didn't handle this situation differently. Remember a few years ago in LA when a woman was sleeping in her car and was awaken by a cop. Minutes later she was dead. Another unnecessary killing that should have been handled differently.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. It was Riverside..Tyisha Miller

I remember it well.

[King Coal]

141. He looked like he could have had a heart attack easy enough.

[Isome]

154. It's pretty easy to have a heart attack...

When you're being beaten by a group of law enforcement officers with metal nightsticks. After all, who would come to your rescue?

[Fescue4u]

160. Victim?

Actually he's a perpetrator.

[1songbird]

164. Things are extremely tense here in Cincy

The city is once again racially divided. A local radio station and its sick and twisted host are spewing pure gutter hatred that is hurting the family and the community. They have called Nathanial an animal repeatedly. One host got on National Television and said that the officers should have shot him in the head. The family of Nathanial is absolutely crushed and devastated. All members of the family say that Nathanial was a sweet and peaceful man. He worked as a caretaker for the disabled and never displayed violent tendencies.
The family's attorney will have an independent cororners report obtained due to past integrity issues in the cororners office.

What I'm hearing here is a general concern for the type of policing that is taking place. Neither side is really listening to the other because there are two many questions still unanswered. The anger is on both sides.

[Booberdawg]

165. Well that radio host sounds like one sick bastard

trying to stir shit. That's really a shame they are trashing the victim like that. Sounds right out of the rushbo playbook. It doesn't sound like he was a hardened criminal or anything like that - he was a tragic victim of drugs.

So, maybe this radio announcer will get his wish and actually incite riots in an already wounded city. How special. Fucker.

[1songbird]

170. This host is the same host that substitutes for Rush Limbaugh

so he has been trained well. Bill Cunningham is the creep in question.

[Booberdawg]

173. Oh so he IS operating out of the Rush Limbaugh playbook!

How did I know that. :eyes:

Well, I feel most for the family right now, as I know all this publicity just makes his tragic death all the more stressfull and painful for them.

Regardless of the circumstances of the incident or how I feel about who started what, or what is and is not appropriate use of force, I cannot STAND to watch that footage anymore! Ugh! I turn away - I won't watch it anymore.

[redqueen]

174. How are things today?

I hope cooler heads are prevailing.

From what has been posted about right wing outlets and the hate they're spewing, I have no reason to believe I am wrong about what's going on there.

If they could get a riot started, it would be no less a motivating force for the GOP's less-evolved supporters than the gay marriage decision in Massachusetts, or the Affirmative Action decision in the SC.