Where's straight shooting from Dean on financing?

[Karmadillo]

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/12/03/wheres_straight_shooting_from_dean_on_financing/

<edit>

"They <the Dean campaign> are headed toward blowing through the cap in Iowa by several million if they maintain their current rate of expenditure," says Bill Carrick, consultant to Richard Gephardt. "And the most disingenuous part is this whole characterization that this is about beating George Bush."

Actually, it's about beating Dick Gephardt. Gephardt, who hails from next-door Missouri, must win the Iowa caucuses. And if Gephardt should win in his backyard, he would be reasonably well positioned to emerge as Dean's principal challenger after New Hampshire, since the congressman has footholds in several of the states that hold primaries on Feb. 3, one week after the Granite State contest.

<edit>

And if Dean's dollars don't boost him to victory in Iowa? Well, by forcing Gephardt to focus on fortifying his base, the doctor's tactics will still have drained time and resources that would otherwise help make the Missourian a more formidable candidate later on.

All that stands in the way of that consummate bit of political realpolitik is Dean's supposed status as a guileless straight shooter who has no truck with politics as usual.

more...

[sangh0]

1. Get ready for the attacks

which will focus on your character and will remain silent on the contradiction between what Dean said (ie. "the money is to fight Bush*") and what Dean did (ie. used the money to fight Dems)

[Code_Name_D]

4. First he can't raise any money

becase he wount cosey up to the corps.

Now he is raising too much? The dean critics would proabaly acurse him of plegerism should he walk on the water.

[sangh0]

11. Off point

The first post contains this text:

"They <the Dean campaign> are headed toward blowing through the cap in Iowa by several million if they maintain their current rate of expenditure," says Bill Carrick, consultant to Richard Gephardt. "And the most disingenuous part is this whole characterization that this is about beating George Bush."

Is that not clear enough for you? How did you get "Now he is raising too much?" from that?

The dean critics would proabaly acurse him of plegerism should he walk on the water.

No, we'll just say "Look at that! Dean can't swim!" :-)

[Jerseycoa]

7. Right

I hear from a lot of Dems, even thus far uncommitted to any candidate, who are uncomfortable with this. I'm uncomfortable with it. I think it's pretty slimy, in fact. The old "bait & switch" is a tired phrase, but it fits.

[Scott Lee]

65. But GUESS who's posted on this thread 21 times by 7:48 MST?

*snicker* You are a hoot.

[wtmusic]

2. Gotta beat Gep to beat Bush

Gephardt will lose to Bush. Simple as that.

by forcing Gephardt to focus on fortifying his base, the doctor's tactics will still have drained time and resources that would otherwise help make the Missourian a more formidable candidate later on.

Everyone's the expert, aren't they? Last I heard, a candidate could decide what to do with his campaign money.

[sangh0]

12. SImple as that?

Then why didn't Dean say that???

[Scott Lee]

66. Because its obvious to any being with a brain stem?

[KittyWampus]

34. Yeah, But Why Did Dean Pretend It Was His SUPPORTERS Making The Decision?

That was so unsavory... the campaign let's it be known they want to forgo limits and THEN asks supporters to vote.
:puke:

The primaries aren't about beating Junior.

And there's no collolary between Dean raising & spending money to win the primary and Dean being the best Democrat to face Bush.

[TLM]

45. We did make the decision...

you may hate the fact that Dean turned that decision back to us, but he did. And we overwhelmingly supported him opting out.

No amount of your hysterical bashing will change that fact.

[CWebster]

3. A river of tears for old Gep

he should know politics well enough by now and has done his best to ferret out the scoop to get down and dirty with the rest.

The ONLY way that Gephardt could ever plausibly win would be a mass vote against Bush. Does he even have ONE supporter on DU (not that it is an accurate representation but hey he was shouted down from the leadership position after the rose garden prank and he thinks the world is his oyster? What is he, nuts?)

[realFedUp]

5. The show is called Hardball

Dean's taking the chance that he can keep raising
funds in smaller amounts and he's being honest
in his assessment that in some states his campaign
will have to spend more money. Iowa and New Hampshire
are THE key states right out the box that all the
candidates need a great showing in or any kind
of money they raise won't make much difference.

I can understand people who are supporting a
different candidate balking at Dean pushing spending
caps but this is Hardball and the GOP isn't playing
by any rules at all. Let's not handicap our team.

[mandyky]

6. Personally, as a Dean supporter

I do not care if he complies with the rules he has opted out of. While I also support CFR, I think it has done nothing but hurt Dems.
If Gephardt attacks Dean on comments he made about Medicare in the 90s again, I hope Dean responds with ads of his own, regardless of limits.

BTW, who is Scott Lehigh and who does he support? This was an op ed piece.

[sangh0]

13. So you don't care if Dean lies?

Dean said he was opting out of CFR in order to fight Bush*. Now, he's using the money to fight Dems.

And you're OK with the lie?

[mandyky]

43. One does not exclude the other

While he DID opt out to be able to compete with shrub, I also expect him to use all his resources to get to the point where he actually faces shrub.

I care if he lies, but most intelligent people do change their minds and their tactics to acheive goals. I don't see where Dean lied.
And Dean has not yet maxed out in Iowa, last I knew.

[Eloriel]

62. Whoaaa, pardner

Gephardt hadn't been running his lies about Dean ads at the time. You better believe I expect Dean to fight those with MY money I sent him.

No lies here but yours.

Eloriel

[SEAburb]

18. ethically challenged Dems make me want to puke

This says alot about Dean's values and ethics, and yours too.

[Hep]

8. Gep accuses dean of playing dirty?

Can he move further down in my standings? What, Kerry and Gep are fighting for LAST guy I would vote for?

[sangh0]

14. Attack the critics, ignore the issue

I noticed you won't even try to defend Dean's lie about why he opted out of CFR

[unfrigginreal]

9. With Gep's history, I expect Dean to spend what he must to win

I'd be pissed if he unilaterally disarmed aginst a known cap buster.

----

Given Mr. Gephardt's history of breaking the cap in 1988, his rivals were quick to predict that he would do the same thing again.

"Just because people have opted in doesn't mean they won't blow the caps," Dr. Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi, said. "They've done it in the past."

Mr. Trippi added, "There's no doubt in my mind if Dick Gephardt has the money, he'll spend it."

Mr. Gephardt overshot the 1988 state limit by about $457,500, or about 60 percent, allowing him to sweep to victory in Iowa. Four years later, his campaign agreed to repay almost $119,000 of his federal campaign subsidies, and three years later he paid a civil penalty of about $80,000 for that and other violations, according to the Federal Election Commission.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/28/politics/campaigns/28STRA.html?pagewanted=print

[9119495]

10. So where is your post saying everyone should be limited to what Sharpton

spends? Come on. Of course he'll spend money against democrats. Its a primary campaign!

This is pretty weak.

[sangh0]

15. Dean lied about why he opted out of CFR

Dean said he was doing it to fight Bush*. Now, he's using the money to fight Dems.

[stickdog]

27. He didn't lie. And his $100 contributors ARE CFR.

As a consequence of opting out to fight Bush, he also has the option of spending what he like in the primaries.

But don't let that stop y'all from grasping at more straws.

[sangh0]

28. Dean lied

and your response does not explain why he didn't say "I'm dropping out to fight Bush* AND THE DEMS"

[stickdog]

33. Or why a father doesn't tell his kids,

"Yes, I love you AND I get a tax deduction!"

[sangh0]

36. So voters are children?

Is that your final answer?

[stickdog]

40. You're just pretending to be that thick, right?

The point is that the associated consequences of actions don't unmake their primary motivations.

That's THE final answer.

[sangh0]

47. Primary motivations?

If defeating Bush* was the "primary" motivation, why did he start by using the money to attack Dems?

[stickdog]

52. To win the nomination ...

so he can defeat Bush.

[sangh0]

54. So why did he keep silent about that part?

Dean literature spoke about defeating Bush* but said nothing about using the money to defeat Dems.

[stickdog]

59. Dean was talking about the 35 million matching funds limit.

His campaign decided to forego this limit so he could defeat Bush. Period.

This other issue concerns primary spending limits that Dean's no longer subject to AS A CONSEQUENCE of foregoing the CFR limits to defeat Bush.

[Eloriel]

63. Yeah -- and it's not as if it's just him and Gephardt

There are those other guys shooting at him too.

Eloriel

[Dubyawatchers]

16. The Road to the White House

The Road to the White House runs through Iowa.
Also a lot of other states.
He's got to win them first before he can take on the bush.
Gep could just call it quits before he embarrasses himself, again.

[Yupster]

17. No sense talking about Campaign Finance Reform

It's dead as a stone.

Can't believe after looking forward to it and fighting for it for years and years, it would be dead within months of its birth, but it is. Forget campaign finance reform. I don't think the politicians who voted to pass it ever took it seriously -- maybe except McCain and Feingold.

They left the issues ad loophole so big that it has blown the whole thing into non-existence.

[DemBones DemBones]

22. Now we know it can't be voluntary, but will only work if

all candidates have to play by the same rules, with no option of not playing by them.

Better yet, make it so that every candidate for president gets the same amount of money to spend, require news media to give free and equal air time or page space to each candidate, etc.

[ozone_man]

67. I don't think we can give equal money to each candidate,

although I have thought so in the past. The thing I like about Dean's contributions is that they are coming from alot of small contributors, while Bush and a few dems have rather large contributions, large corporate contributions, etc.

Maybe there needs to be smaller caps on contributions (e.g. $200). Dean is well under $100 average ($77?). There needs to be a direct correlation between the amount a candidate can raise and the amount of grass roots or popularity that candidate has. The matching seems sort of bogus to me, but maybe I don't understand it's purpose. And there needs to be an overall cap ($200M+?).

"require news media to give free and equal air time or page space to each candidate, etc."

I totally agree with this. I think alot more needs to be done in the way of provinding media coverage and making the debates more viewable on prime time TV. Most people never get to see these, at least not until the final one on one debates.

[SEAburb]

19. kick

<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>

[SEAburb]

20. kick again for DU reality check

>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<

[DemBones DemBones]

21. The author makes some good points but

since they are at Dean's expense, the Dean supporters will never admit it. Instead, they'll attack Gephardt, cry "Dean bashing," etc. That's why so many of us are ABD: Dean has some real problems regarding honesty and ethics that neither he nor his supporters are dealing with, such as:

1) the sealed records (would they show a quid pro quo in regard to Entergy winning the right to buy Vermont Yankee (power)? Dean got campaign money from Entergy, Vermont Yankee, and Koch, which formed a partnership with Entergy.

2) the fact that Dean's got financial ties to the Koch brothers, owners of Koch Industries, sponsors of the right wing Cato Institute, and also tied to the DLC.

("DLC funds are coming from corporations that usually use their money to further Republican careers, like Philip Morris, Enron, Pfizer, Citigroup, DuPont and the ultra-ultra-ultra-ultra-right-wing Koch Industries. In fact, two Koch executives are a part of the elite DLC Board of Trustees! " -- Oregon Daily Emerald)

3) the fact that Dean, as governor of Vermont, spoke at the Cato Institute and told them they should like him since he's no liberal, but a fiscal conservative.

4) the fact that Dean has favored raising the Medicare retirement age and stopping the growth of Medicare but doesn't admit it, and, worse, won't say that he would never do, either. He danced around the latter question when John Kerry called him out on it in the last debate. "It's either yes or no, Governor."

5) the fact that he didn't want to go to Viet Nam and that he took his medical records to his military physical in hopes of getting a medical deferment. He's finally admitted it but he has prevaricated about this for months, saying he "failed" his physical, the government made the decision, etc. The truth is simple: when he was 17, he got a diagnosis that he hoped would keep him out of the military. He didn't want to go in the military because he didn't want to go to Viet Nam. Fortunately for him, the military accepted his doctor's diagnosis as reason to give him the 1-Y status that kept him out of serving.

6) the fact that he won't say whether he supports gay marriage or not. We all know he signed the civil unions legislation, what about marriage?


Again, the author of this op ed made some very good points. Here's another excerpt:


"Dean having deftly ducked the question during the show itself, it seemed worthwhile to ask it again afterward. So: Given that his rationale for rejecting public financing is that he will need to spend more heavily to beat George Bush, why does he have to reject the primary spending limits as well?

"Well, we actually haven't decided to do that yet," Dean replied. "But it looks very much like the other candidates are doing it anyway, so we may not have to make that decision."

Now, wait just a minute. The only other candidate who has opted out of public financing is Kerry. And Kerry did so explicitly because Dean rejected public dollars -- and spending limits -- first. Thus what we have here is Dean using the reaction to his own decision to justify a possible further violation of the spirit of fair primary play. That's why it's important to keep your eye on what Dean does in Iowa.

If the Vermonter does spend more than the Iowa cap, as seems likely, we'll have learned something important he's not really a no-nonsense country doctor. He just plays one on TV."

[sangh0]

23. Dean did make a statement on Gay Marriage

Dean said he was "uncomfortable" with the politics of gay marriage

[SEAburb]

24. Did Tweety grill Dean for a yes or no answer on Gay marriage,

like he did Clark? I miss the first few minutes of the show.

[sangh0]

29. Huh? Tweety?

Dean made the remark while he was Governor, before he announced for Prez.

[stickdog]

31. Your criticisms of Dean.

1) He did what every politician does -- he tried to keep his private records private.

2) Something vague about the Koch brothers.

3) He's fiscally responsible.

4) He's fiscally responsible.

5) He didn't want to fight in a bullshit war.

6) He's for civil unions but not gay marriage.

7) He's trying to win the nomination.

[sangh0]

37. Not true

1) He did what every politician does -- he tried to keep his private records private.

Not EVERY politician. Clark has released his records.

2) Something vague about the Koch brothers.

Nothing vague about it. Dean took their money.

[TLM]

44. WHat a steaming pile of spun crap....

But you did say one honest thing, you'd prefer Bush over DEan.

"That's why so many of us are ABD:"


"1) the sealed records (would they show a quid pro quo in regard to Entergy winning the right to buy Vermont Yankee (power)? Dean got campaign money from Entergy, Vermont Yankee, and Koch, which formed a partnership with Entergy."


Are Kucinich's record of all personal congressional corrispondance public? Nope. But then, this is a standard just for attacking Dean.

The fact is, there's nothing much in there, but a lot of names of people Dean talked with about civil unions. I suppose you think they should be outed... but then if Dean did make his communications records public, you'd be attacking him for not keeping those names private.


"2) the fact that Dean's got financial ties to the Koch brothers, owners of Koch Industries, sponsors of the right wing Cato Institute, and also tied to the DLC. "

What ties? Dean is not a member of the DLC.

"("DLC funds are coming from corporations that usually use their money to further Republican careers, like Philip Morris, Enron, Pfizer, Citigroup, DuPont and the ultra-ultra-ultra-ultra-right-wing Koch Industries. In fact, two Koch executives are a part of the elite DLC Board of Trustees! " -- Oregon Daily Emerald)"

Kerry, Edwards, and Lieberman are all current DLC members.


"3) the fact that Dean, as governor of Vermont, spoke at the Cato Institute and told them they should like him since he's no liberal, but a fiscal conservative."


Nice lie... Dean said he was no BIG GOVERNMENT liberal. The fact you choose to leave that out shows that you know doing so makes your dishonest smear more effective.



"4) the fact that Dean has favored raising the Medicare retirement age"

Not really, he listed a number of things that might need to be done had a balanced budget amendment passed in 1995 in an answer to a hypothetical question. To act as if that was a policy position is dishonest... and sadly typical of Dean bashers.


" and stopping the growth of Medicare but doesn't admit it, and, worse, won't say that he would never do, either. He danced around the latter question when John Kerry called him out on it in the last debate. "It's either yes or no, Governor.""

Another lie... Kerry asked Dean if he would SLOW the growth of medicare, not stop it. Your dishonesty begs the question... if Dean is so bad, why must you still lie about quotes to prop up attacks against him?



"5) the fact that he didn't want to go to Viet Nam and that he took his medical records to his military physical in hopes of getting a medical deferment."

Didn't Kucinich also get a deferment for a heart condition? I guess that makes him a coward and a liar, right?


"He's finally admitted it but he has prevaricated about this for months, saying he "failed" his physical,"

He did.

"the government made the decision, etc."

They did.


"The truth is simple: when he was 17, he got a diagnosis that he hoped would keep him out of the military. He didn't want to go in the military because he didn't want to go to Viet Nam. Fortunately for him, the military accepted his doctor's diagnosis as reason to give him the 1-Y status that kept him out of serving. "

Just like the draft board rejected Kucinich for his medical condition.

Rather hypocritcal to attack Dean for doing pretty much the exact same thing that Kucinich did.


"6) the fact that he won't say whether he supports gay marriage or not. We all know he signed the civil unions legislation, what about marriage?"

Dean's position is clear, he feels that gays and lesbians should have all the same rights as straights.

Why are you so hung up on the word marriage? THis is about the rights, not the words.

[stickdog]

25. How dare Dean try to win the nomination! (NT)

[sangh0]

30. So it's OK to lie?

Is that all you've got?

[stickdog]

32. He didn't lie, and you know it.

My God, the straws y'all will grasp at!

[sangh0]

38. Dean lied

Dean said he opted out to fight Bush*, and then he used the money to fight Dems.

[stickdog]

41. So he's not going to use the lion's share of his money to fight Bush?

Because that's what it would take to say he lied.

[TLM]

46. It is all they've got to go on sickdog...

they're losing and they know Dean has the better system for rasing money. So they have to attack the idea of being able to raise money as a bad thing.

These same folks wouldn't care if gep blew passed the cap in order to continue attackign Dean, because their standards are based on attacking Dean, nothing else.

[sangh0]

49. Dean lied

so keep pretending it's about how much money Dean has raised, a fact no one has complained about. Nobody.

I challenge you to find on post on DU where someone complains that Dean has too much money.

[sangh0]

48. Straw man

No one said anything about how much. Dean said the money was to fight Bush*, and he mentioned nothing else.

[stickdog]

53. He can't defeat Bush unless he wins the nomination.

I realize that you think it's scandalous that Dean is trying to win the Democratic nomination.

[sangh0]

55. I think it's scandalous how Dean lies

and you swear to it

[WilliamPitt]

26. Total bullshit. Bullshit of the purest ray serene. Pandimensional crap.

Beating Bush very much depends on beating Gephart imho. Bitching about Dean dissing the campaign finance system is like scolding the fly for staying out of the spider web...count the zeroes here: 750,000,000. That's how many dollars Bush is going to have for this campaign. The system was busted a while back, and busting Dean for trying to win is the dumbest thing I have ever ever ever heard.

On edit: I read this crap in the Globe this morning and prayed people would have better sense than to post it. Posting Lehigh on Dean as if his opinions were valid is like posting Friedman on Bush's foreign policy and expecting coherence. *sigh*

[Karmadillo]

61. Uh, it's a discussion board.

If you don't like the article, you can ignore it or, as you did, kind of, attempt to discuss it. That is, if praying it won't be posted doesn't work.

If it's all about Bush's grotesque spending (something we all would criticize as an attempt to buy the general election), why isn't Dean respecting the caps against Democrats? Is he trying to buy the nomination? Maybe, maybe not, but seems a legitimate point to raise (a point, strangely enough, Dean, himself, promised to raise when he thought Kerry would be the only Democrat able to afford to abandon the campaign finance system).

And just so others can judge if Lehigh is fair to Dean, here's an article from a few months back. Seems not too far from reality, given what we've seen since.

http://www.ralphwright.com/pressrelease1.htm

Howard Dean's pragmatic side
By Scot Lehigh, 8/6/2003

<edit>

The one place where Wright presents Dean as ready to fight involved not ideological principle but personal prerogative. The former speaker recalls the day that he encountered Dean, then the lieutenant governor, in his waiting room, furious at the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee because his office's budget had been cut. ''He's a no good son of a bitch. I swear, if it takes me a lifetime, I'll get the bastard,'' Dean said, according to Wright.

Ultimately, the Dean whom Wright limns is neither fighter nor firebrand but a pragmatic practitioner of the politics of the possible, one more committed to personal political success than to any particular issue.

That hardly makes Dean a bad fellow. But it does suggest that the passionate, cause-driven liberal who has won the allegiance of tens of thousands on the campaign trail is not who Howard Dean really is.

Or, at least, not who Governor Dean really was.

end

[TLM]

35. So a guy who has a history of cap busting is attacking Dean

because he has not yet busted the cap, but he might if he keeps spending at the same rate?


Yeah... gep's not running on empty or anything.

I doubt Dean will pass the caps unless gep does it first. However even if he does, it won't bohter me a bit. Dean has 4 or 5 dems all campaigning against him. I think Dean's cap should be determined by the combined amounts all the others spend to attack him.

[sangh0]

39. Two wrongs don't make a right.

and Dean has already said he will spend the money in the states, and he hasn't made it conditional on what the other Dems do.

Even more importantly, Dean said one thing, and did another

[stickdog]

42. Show me where Dean said that he would NOT spend what was necessary

to win the nomination.

[sangh0]

50. Show me where Dean said he would spend it fighting Dems.

You can't

[HFishbine]

56. Show me where he didn't

You can't.

[sangh0]

60. Let me get this straight

You want me to point out where Dean DIDN'T say something?

[HFishbine]

70. You got it

Since you seem to be so upset that Dean is using money to fight his primary battles, I'd like you to show me what gave you the impression in the first place that he wouldn't. What promise did he make that you feel he's gone back on?

If Dean never said that he wouldn't use funds to fight in the primaries, then you've got no legitimate gripe and certainly no excuse for calling Dean a liar.

[stickdog]

58. You are the one accusing Dean of lying.

You produce the evidence.

Not predicting each and every potential future occurence in advance <> lying.

And you know this.

But you continue to grasp at straws.

Why?

[Karmadillo]

68. Here's a statement

Or do you mean you want a statement made after this promise became inoperative?

http://www.kucinich.us/doctorisout.php

<edit>

On March 7, 2003, the Associated Press wrote: "Howard Dean committed Friday to taking taxpayer dollars to finance his presidential campaign.... He promised to make it an issue in the Democratic primaries if any of his rivals decide to skip public financing, as President Bush did en route to winning the Republican nomination in 2000. 'It will be a huge issue,' Dean said. 'I think most Democrats believe in campaign finance reform.'"

[Hep]

69. Can you actually answer the question

???

[mikehiggins]

51. Wow! Dean is a POLITICIAN! What a surprise!

I am amazed. Who would have thought? What a mind-blower!

Is the writer correct? Did/do Dean's supporters think he is some sort of white knight of political virtue, who shrinks from the rough and tumble of modern electoral combat?

Uh, yeah, folks. Look, Dean was reelected Governor several times in a state with the population of a mid-sized NY city. Those are ROUGH elections because everyone knows everything about everyone, and there isn't a lot of room for cutesy little dodges like a NYC mayor can pull.

Dean learned his skills in a rough-and-tough arena, and if he has the money to cripple Gephardt in Iowa, you can be sure he'll do just that. If Gephardt had the money, he'd do the same thing.

I really hope that the Dean-ites haven't been laboring under this particular delusion, because if they are they are heading for a real fall when the truth sinks in.

Howard Dean is a politician. That is what he does. If he wasn't running for President this year, he'd probably be running for the Senate the next time it opened up.

I can't beleive the Deanites could be such newbies. It is beyond, well, beyond anything I thought about them.

Folks, if you are looking for purity and idealism, politics is not the place to go looking.

Even Clark is a politician, even if from a different context. If he wasn't there would be no point to even talking about him, let alone supporting him.

Reality. It's so much better than the alternative.

[killbotfactory]

57. Unfortunatly, winning isn't politics as usual for the democrats.

That's what's so unusual about Dean. He's going to win.

[Scott Lee]

64. So Dean's not supposed to fend of Gephardt? Hilarious!

"Hello, Dick?"

"Yeah, this is Dick Gephardt."

"Hiya Dick, Howard Dean. Listen I have something I need to ask you. Do you think you can stop all of your speeches and ads that are critical of me? I'd really appreciate it. I need to save my money for a fight against George Bush.."

"Sure Howard, no problem. Have a good day."

"Thanks, Dick."

*click*



LMFAO!!!!