Dean admitting that he didn't want to go to Vietnam hurt him in the South

[Marines for Clark]

Does Dean admitting that he didn't want to go to Vietnam going to play well with the strong Military South? Also when Dean said those religous people when taking about gay marraige at yesterday Hardball going to hurt him also in the south?

[BootinUp]

1. A fair question...

I will reserve my opinion as I may be biased.

[Racenut20]

2. Frankly I have been predicting Dean's reception in the South

For about 500 posts. College kids following him around Austin, Texas because it is the in thing to do won't get a single vote for him in Georgia or Northern Florida.

[wtmusic]

5. You're very astute, Racenut

didn't know it was all over

:eyes:

[Bill of Rights]

45. What about the Dem Nomination?

Will it hurt him in the Dem nomination? I wonder if it will make a difference. I was under the impression that Edward, Gephardt and Clark would do well in the south.

[sangh0]

122. Tell it here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=802700#802738

[Anaxamander]

112. I can tell you with certainty...

...that Dean will get votes in Atlanta and Tallahassee. Both are overwhelminly Democratic.

[J B]

3. You do realize it's 11 months before elections, right?

Besides that, he gave an honest answer instead of trying to lie about his record or bury it.

[Julien Sorel]

9. Captured on videotape for eternity.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. Imagine that.

Give me two good reasons to have wanted to go to Vietnam.

On second thought, make that one.

[Julien Sorel]

51. One it is.

One day you might want to run for political office. Sure would look nice on your resume. It would also look nice not to have to defend yourself against charges of draft dodging, which Dean just essentially admitted to in a taped interview.

Whether you or I like it or not, issues like that resonate with certain segments of the population -- often, the kind who drive around in pickup trucks with Confederate flags on them, to borrow from your great leader. It's a symbolism issue: it has to do with the way people view duty and sense of country. What makes it interesting in this case is his up-frontedness about it: "yes, I didn't want to serve my country, and I'm so proud of it I'll say so right here on TV," is basically what he said. At least show some respect for the sensibilities of people who take that sort of thing seriously, and find a way to diplomatically phrase your answer.

I realize that doesn't matter -- Dean will waterwalk through the South and Midwest and people will stop their pickup trucks, get out and begin somnambulantly following him around while chanting 'We have the power' like the rest of the Deanbots do. They won't care about flag or God or guns or country (read military service) -- Dean told them they have to stop caring about those things, and instead, care about healthcare and jobs (because they obviously don't already), and they will obey. That's just how it works this election cycle.

[Forkboy]

53. LMAO

yes,people should go get killed just in case they might run for office :eyes:

[Julien Sorel]

66. Not exactly what I said.

But since the person to whom I replied wanted to change the subject, I changed it back to why service is important.

Straw man much?

[Forkboy]

69. It's not what you said

but the effect is the same.

[Julien Sorel]

72. Of course it is.

[Forkboy]

73. Glad you agree

:hi:

[diamondsoul]

64. Ask Wes Clark if he wanted to go.

This is honestly an idiotic suggestion, and I suspect Clark would agree. His response would be "Well NOBODY WANTED to go to Viet Nam! We just did our duty, that's all!".

Dean admitted he was scared to death to be sent, show me ONE soldier who wasn't and I'll show you a wet behind the ears fool of a kid who either grew up real damned fast or died in a hurry. If your SS number were called what would YOU be?

Listen, I'm not a fan of Dean, which plenty of his supporters can attest to, but this is just stupid. No offense to you, I just can't see anyone with military background or experience being phased at all by Dean's honesty about Viet Nam.

[Julien Sorel]

70. So what do you say to the people,

already suspicious of a Northeastern, trust-fund liberal mind you, who think of service as doing something that scared you? Dean starts with several strikes; the draft dodging is just another one. But it's a symbolic thing as well: he isn't one of them. Their cousins and sons and fathers had to serve (and as so often is the case with something we are forced to do, decided it was a virtue); Dean found a way out, and now is brazenly talking about it as if it's no big deal. Aren't Presidents supposed to be the people who will do their duty even if they don't like it?

[diamondsoul]

79. Well now, you've raised some salient

reasons it could hurt him. I didn't get any sense of that from the first few posts.

I suppose my response is "If you had a way out would you have taken it?". Then there's the point that I seriously doubt he was considering a bid for the Presidency when his draft number was called. I also don't think he's talking about it "as if it's no big deal". I think he takes it pretty seriously actually, but what should he do now? The events are in the past. Should he lie about it when the facts are easily checked? Should he pretend it didn't happen?

He has no choice but to be honest about it when the subject is brought up.

Just between you and me this is extremely wierd! I'm the last person around here to defend Dean these days!:D

[ima_sinnic]

115. why do you keep calling it DRAFT DODGING?

you are just about to be the second on my Ignore list--a feature I wish I had implemented months ago, for the sake of my blood pressure. Keep pumping the non-issues, it just serves to remind that not all Democrats care about defeating Bush in 2004.

[TLM]

127. For the same reason republicans call it partial birth abortion

the truth makes for a far less effective smear.

When I see people pushing the draft dodging crap, I simply ask them if they feel Dean should have lied about his condition... if he had a duty to lie to the draft board in order to get into Vietnam where his back condition could easily turned into a serious liability that could have gotten him or his fellow soldiers injured or killed.

As I told Billy, there’s a reason there are physical standards that one must meet in order to serve in the military. If you do not meet them, you are a risk to your fellow soldiers. If Dean had a bad back, he had no business in the military, even if he wanted to go, because he would pose a risk.

[TLM]

125. Dean did his duty.... and the military rejected him.

Dean's duty was to go to his draft induction and to be honest about his condition, which he did. THEY REJECTED HIM!

This whole desperate Clark Corps shit argument about draft dodging is solely based on the ridiculous premise that Dean was somehow obligated to LIE about his back condition and HIDE it in order to go to Vietnam. Do you believe it was Dean’s duty to LIE to the draft board?

There is a reason the military has physical standards for solders. If Dean had lied as you think he should have, and then had his back go out in some combat situation, and got himself and/or his fellow solders killed, would that also be his duty? Would that make you happy? Of course not. If Dean lied about his condition to get into nam, you'd be giving him just as much shit and just as many attacks for lying to his country and endangering his fellow soldiers.

So stop pretending your attacks are based on ANYTHING other than the fact you want to attack Dean and promote Clark.

[Chomskyite]

136. Here's what I say:

Read the Boston Globe's articles on Bush's service record. He didn't just go AWOL. He deserted!

Yet he got nominated by the supposedly Gung Ho Republican party and beat a POW like McCain in the very military state of South Carolina.

[BootinUp]

83. Look I'm not

flaming here, but Clark's life and outlook was very different. He made a decision to serve and it is a very uplifting story. This is a very personal thing for everyone, and some people in this country will agree and some will disagree with Dean on it.

[Jack_Dawson]

93. LOL

[SharonAnn]

142. The funny thing is, the people you're talking about didn't serve

and didn't want to serve in the military. They may talk big about honor and duty but very few of the loud mouthed ones ever went within 30 feet of anyone recruiting for the military.

[brent of rppper]

145. I agree with this....

unlike bush who may i add lied about not 1 but many things..including"weapons of mass destruction" quote on quote....but bush aswell lied about being in military...granted he may have been in armed forces he went awall a year into....so i do repect dean for being truthfull about his mistakes..unlike our sorry excuse for a president.....

[wtmusic]

4. If he wanted to go he would have enlisted

and if you mean his comment about 'God, guns and gays' that won't hurt him with fundie Christians--he never had their vote anyway

[Sterling]

6. Thats odd most of my family from the south

Thinks Nam was a scam and you were smart not to serve in that lie of a war.

Maybe back when it was going on people would feel differently but in retrospect only the dimest bulbs will not see how wrong that war was.

Those people will never vote for anyone but Bush so fuck em.

If the rednecks don'tcare about AWOL then don't bother trying to get me to care when they cry foul at Dean legally not serving. He was smart.

[wtmusic]

7. So it is apparently helping him

and his plan to maintain current levels of military spending should help even more

[Demobrat]

10. Just imagine how most young men today

would feel about being forced to fight in Iraq, and you've pretty much got the picture. It was a nightmare, and I just thank God that Dean didn't have to go and get killed over there for nothing. We need him now.

[Marines for Clark]

15. The Military south

I am active Marine that is station in North Carolina I have not find one fellow soilder that would vote for Dean yet they even dislike him more now since he tried his best to avoid combat in Vietnam. In the Miltary its either Bush or Clark or even Kerry. I have never seen so much support for a Democrat in Military since JFK now with Clark here in North Carolina. The south is about the mucho south, religion, and the military.

[Demobrat]

19. And yet they are fine with a commander in chief

who went AWOL. Why is that? Don't they believe it?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. They don't have a choice, do they?

[DS1]

21. funny

I've never seen a Marine call a fellow Marine a soldier.

-S. F.

[Demobrat]

32. What do they normally call each other?

Just out of curiosity.

[DS1]

34. Marines

calling a Marine a soldier is an insult.

[JohnKleeb]

48. Arent you a vet yourself DS1?

:hi: Thought I heard you say that and all my relatives were in the Army not the Marines but they do call themselves Marines to my knowledge.

[DS1]

57. Yes, it's just one of those things

I'm sure a few other jarheads here would pick up on. I don't agree with it being an insult, but that's how it's seen within most of the corps.

:hi: back at ya

[TLM]

128. I noticed that too...

more Clark Corps bullshit.

[HFishbine]

22. Fellow North Carolinian here

Where are you stationed?

[Room101]

23. Marines for Clark - So they like Bush for being AWOL?

WTF!?

[CityZen-X]

27. Did Troops Know.....

Did our troops know that the Resident Evil went AWOL on his military commitment while soldiers were dying in Viet Nam? And if they knew this FACT how could they possibly vote for this traitor. And if they didn't know it then but know it now will they still vote for the scumball?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

86. Since Bush went Awol I don't understand your point

.

[Jack_Dawson]

94. This is what I'm talking about Deanies

A military perspective. Dean does NOT play in the military OR south. Dean is a nice guy. I admire his honesty about not wanting to go to Vietnam. I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted to go to Vietnam either. But I'm not running for President.

[NNN0LHI]

8. I am very close friends with many active and retired military guys

I had their ear talking about a Clark run. I am not stupid enough to even bring up some of the other Dem candidates to them. I don't like having people laugh in my face.

Don

[Darth_Ole]

14. What Dean said last night is exactly the kind of answers people want.

A LOT of people didn't want to go to Vietnam. It's not like Dean was the only one.

And at first he was saying "I wasn't looking forward to going to Vietnam." and when he said his "Yes" answer you could almost see him thinking "Enough of this beating around the bush shit."

As far as his "Gods, guns, and gays" remark goes, he's right. Who cares if he pisses off Jerry Falwell's followers?

[Demobrat]

30. And as soon as he said it

the crowd went nuts. If it hurts him with hard core military, so be it. It sure didn't hurt him with anybody who lived through that era, and there's a hell of a lot of us.

[slinkerwink]

31. I agree!

They all were clapping and loved that comment. Btw, it's SO nice to see a new Clarkite spout RW talking points. What's one more to the din here?

[Classical_Liberal]

87. I predict that if Clark wins alot of are more Rovian Clarkies

will disappear or they will find out he is the antichrist and much worse than Bush.

[Jack_Dawson]

95. They were clapping because...

They are 20 years old and Harvard students. They barely remember the Gulf War. Exactly the New England liberal upper-crust Dean plays to. But to win an ELECTION you need CROSSOVER appeal.

[TLM]

132. Dean is polling the best with moderate and indi voters.

Notice how Clinton not going to nam cost him the election?

No? Even when he was running against a real war hero like Bob Dole?


My father is a vietnam vet, and he's fully behind Dean as are dozens of other current and ex-military folks at our meetup. So this idea that the military is somehow anti-anybody who didn't serve in nam is just fucking stupid and uninformed.

The hardcore wingers who are big war hawks and think vietnam was a great thing... now pay attention... THEY DON'T VOTE DEM EVER! So no votes are lost. Oh no, Dean might piss off the far right groups that would never vote for him anyway...

[TLM]

129. Exactly.... if people had WANTED to go to vietnam...

they wouldn't have needed a fucking draft in the first place?

Nobody who was drafted wanted to go... or they wouldn't have to be drafted.

But the military hawk candidates, Kerry, Clark, and Bush have nothign else to run on, so they're all trying to paint Dean as a draft dodger.

[TLM]

11. More talking points from the clark blog...

:boring:

[pruner]

12. I predict it'll hurt him just as much as…

his "horrible" appearance on Meet the Press & his confederate flag comment did.

[frustrated_lefty]

17. but not nearly as much as

his habit of drinking the blood of infants or having the word "unelectable" tatoo-ed on his ass during his wild and zany youth. :eyes:

[HFishbine]

25. About that tattoo

I thought it was a picture of Barbara Bush.

[Forkboy]

13. lol

hard to take anything seriously about a candidate from a person who uses their choice as a nic.It's like negative Clark stories from someone called "Joe4Dean". :eyes:

[Marines for Clark]

20. Clark or Kerry

Do you think that the Military or the south would put their life on a person who admmited that he didn't want to go Vietnam with no Forign Policy or National Defense experince. We are against a War-time President with a big mess in Iraq. Did anybody hear Dean talk about Forign Policy he was horrible yesterday.

Clark or Kerry
Clark/Kerry

[MoonAndSun]

28. What is your reply to poster who asked if you like bush because

he was AWOL from the Texas Ntl Guard? What about your Marine buddies?

[Classical_Liberal]

88. Why would the put their life on Awol Bush who is infinately worse!

. Atleast Dean would have kept them out of that hellhole in Iraq, foreign policy experience or not.

[Jack_Dawson]

97. I agree

Foreign policy experience: I've traveled a lot. I'm close to Canada. LOL I mean c'MON peeps!!! Let's all do a shot of reality I'm buying.

[ellie]

18. Why does this hurt him?

Smirky didn't go and he's treated like some sort of war hero!

[Democrats unite]

24. 1st I want to say I don't like Dean, 2nd I want to say I don't like Dean

3rd, I want to say I really don't like Dean. With that said, I don't think that comment will hurt him in the South.

[Marines for Clark]

26. Clark or Kerry

camp Lejeune

[MoonAndSun]

29. Reply to poster #23 please.

[HFishbine]

35. Thought you might be

Last time I drove down there, which was shortly after the war started, Onslow Drive was draped with all sorts of "we love you" and "come home safe" banners -- up and down the entire street. Still that way?

[Don Claybrook]

111. I'm sorry, but

fuck any southern voters or military personnel who think that George W. Bush is a viable choice over Howard Dean, Clark, Kucinich, or Zippy the freaking Pinhead. If they're that goddamned stupid in the first place, then maybe they should just vote against their self-interests. Maybe they should cast another vote for Bush in hopes that they'll be killed for no discernable reason.

[sandnsea]

92. rotfl

Oh goodie, somebody officially doesn't like Dean more than me! I think I've only said "I don't like Dean" twice in a row.

[farmbo]

33. It'll hurt him just about as much as it hurt Clinton

When Clinton's draftboard hijinks (remember: "I loathe the military") hit the press, everyone thought he'd fold like a pair of 4s in a game of Three card draw.

But it didn't happen.

The Vietnam war was so divisive and ill-conceived, this country will actually look past a candidate's military status in that war.

[Field Of Dreams]

36. Possibly...

but at least in terms of southern voters, Clinton had the advantage of being a "son of the South."

[farmbo]

42. Keep in mind...women cast over half the Southern votes...

...and Baby Boomers-- who had their own, private struggles with Vietnam-era draftboards-- cast many of the rest.

Your point is well taken, though. Southerners will give chickenhawks a free ride if they're suitably Dixie-fied; witness: Gingrich, Scarborough, Frist, etc, etc, etc.

[Marines for Clark]

50. The south will hurt Dean

Things that will hurt Dean in the south

1. His Conf Flag remarks
2. avoiding the Vietnam draft
3. The south don't like a yankee from the north
4. His religious stand especially yesterday remarks on Hardball when he said that those religious people when talking about his gay marriage stance

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. I live in the South...Alabama to be exact, and I was born in Virginia...

...and I take exception to your remarks:

1. His Conf Flag remarks

I had several ancestors and other relatives that fought in Virginia infantry units throughout the Civil War, but remarks for and against the old Confederate battle flag are non-issues for me. In the broad scheme of things, if more of us vote in 2004 for a Democrat then Republicans vote for the Chimp-in-Chief, we'll win. That's it, that's the bottom line. But, that's assuming we will have elections at all in 2004.

2. avoiding the Vietnam draft

What bullshit. He no more avoided the Vietnam War than anyone else that a military doctor declared unfit for military service. Get over yourself. And before you get all lathered up thinking you've been personally insulted, I served a total of five years...four as an officer, three of which were spent assigned as a Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer with the Marines at Camp Pendleton.

3. The south don't like a yankee from the north

I guess that depends on what part of the South you're from, doesn't it? There are good-sized pockets of people that still think like that here in the South, but I'm of the opinion that they're in a distinct and slowly eroding minority still hanging on to a hate-filled past. If the alternative is four more years of Coke-n-Smoke as opposed to the Democratic candidate, I'm thinking the Democrat will win.

4. His religious stand especially yesterday remarks on Hardball when he said that those religious people when talking about his gay marriage stance

Sounds like you were personally offended by Dean's comments. You know what personally offends me? I'm personally offended by anyone that attempts to ram religious beliefs down anyone else's throat. I'm also beginning to sense that the religious zealots in the South are also part of a slowly eroding minority.

[Classical_Liberal]

89. Gore was a son of the South and a veteran who didn't go awol

. Maybe southerners don't care about either of those things too much.

[jumptheshadow]

107. But Clinton was charming

He was a sweet talker who charmed people, and they were willing to forgive him a lot of things because he was affable.

Dean is passionate but he doesn't have Clinton's soft touch. That's why he will have much more of an uphill climb than Clinton did.

[farmbo]

113. It remains to be seen...

...whether Dean is "charming."


Only about 55% of the voters even know who he is. If Rove can go on the air with a disinformation campaign, which is not responded to, he's toast.

But Dean & Trippi won't let that happen.

That's why they opted out of Federal matching funds. Rove's sludge will be matched virtually dollar-for-dollar, if Dean gets the nomination.

[MoonAndSun]

37. YooHoo!!! Marines For Clark....where are you?

I'm still waiting for your reply to poster #23. Where did you go?

[BootinUp]

38. Its amazing

Here is a guy telling you information from a real point of view and reading the responses from the Deaniacs just makes me sad or laugh or both. Look he (Dean) has his strong points and his weak points, we are at war for all intents and purposes still. This is not a strong point for Dean or even a neutral point as some have tried to spin.

will any Dean supporter not concede that?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

74. I'm former military, but there are quite a few Democrats that distrust...

...candidates that served in the military as many years as Clark. Clark also has a background that, regardless of his current political beliefs, causes those same Democrats to hesitate when considering Clark as a presidential candidate

Are you ready to concede that point?

I personally think Clark's a fine person...if he's the nominee I have no problem voting for him. Likewise, I think Dean is a fine man, and would have no difficulties voting for him either.

Regardless of your choice for the Democratic nominee, some of you folks need to get over this hair-splitting mentality. The objective is to vote out this illegal NeoCon Junta and restore America to what it was before 2000. I'm just hoping that we will be allowed to vote in 2004 and that it will be conducted in a legal fashion.

[BootinUp]

75. Yes

In fact I just responded to a similar comment in another thread. This is a tough issue for Clark with a significant number of Dems. I will post something about it, its getting late might be tomorrow. Maybe I'll post it in the Political Discussion forum.

I agree with everything you said.

Cheers

[Classical_Liberal]

90. I don't think that is factual

The fact is I like Dean's stances better than Clark. Clark didn't have the foresite to oppose the war before it happened, and supported the resolution, that gave a blank check to Bush. He said it was because he trusted Bush. I don't want someone who trusted Bush as much as someone who knew better.

[BootinUp]

103. I'm glad you qualified that,because

I need to clear up something here.

Clark was clearly not in favor of invading Iraq, without support from the UN. He wrote articles, went to congress, around Sept and Oct of 2002 clearly stating that Iraq was not an imminent threat from the intelligence that he had seen. However, he wanted the UN to have a say. You have to realize that Clark was not a candidate and this did not get much press coverage. Before we went in, Clark expressed reservations on CNN even. I remember this but do not have proof to link here. I can provide a link to his article and position before the war:

http://clark04.com/articles/001/

There are more published links that would support this but I do not have all of them saved. I will collect some and then update this post.

[Classical_Liberal]

105. Clark said he would have voted for the IWR!

The IWR undercut the UN, because it didn't require Bush go to the Un. Dean wouldn't have left that to Bush's bad judgement. I like Dean better, because Dean knew better than to trust Bush.

[BootinUp]

120. You have to look at his whole record

Clark wrote a whole book, called Winning Modern Wars, where he expounds on the importance of a multi-lateral approach.

Clark testified before Congress back in 2002 about the need for a multi-lateral approach and taking this to the UN.

Clark made a verbal blunder on a plane with clever reporters trying to trap him. Are you going to ignore his real record becuse of that one miscue?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

135. I don't think you read what I posted. What specifically about my post...

...is not factual?

[BootinUp]

101. Here's the post I promised

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=94966

[Donna Zen]

39. Hurt him?

I don't think he was ever being considered so maybe the question is moot. But if it is still alive, it will hurt him more with the people in the North, East and West who have all of the "Support our Troops" bumper stickers on their cars. They will not vote for someone who cannot get our troops out, and Dean's lack of experience will not seal the deal. They will stay home, or stay with them that brung 'em.

Remember: in order to put a Democrat in office, there must be a move of about 10% of the military vote which is a huge vote in this country. Dean has never had that appeal.

I talked to a guy the other night who's son, an old student of mine, is in Mosol. It was an awful conversation. The man was so angry his eyes were red. He told me that his kid always asks what we are hearing on TV. While the kid can't say much, he does just grunt and let's his dad know that in non-verbal ways that we are being feed a bunch of bull.

If I could, I would move General Clark into the WH tomorrow. I want someone who actually knows what they are doing guiding the policy that can get the world out of this mess. I want the troops home, because I liked this soldier in Mosol very much. I like his dad and mom too.

Many people here don't understand who General Clark is. The don't understand, or won't let themselves understand, that he is one of the world's statesmen and a very caring person, who feels deeply about what it happening in our country and to our sons and daughters.

Stay safe.

[TLM]

134. Newsflash, the liberal base of the dem party... don't want a war hawk

Simple as that... Clark will drive off the base. He'll get some of the military vote and some of the south, but at the cost of the base that thinks we have enough hawks in DC.

Clark, despite all the lies his supporters tell, is a right wing war hawk. He committed war crimes in Kosovo and then became a defense lobbyist when he was fired from his command.

The pukes will attack Clark as power hungry, dishonest, and incompetent. They'll turn his whole military image against him, drive off the base and without that general image Clark is nothing and he'll lose.

The guy is polling in single digits in most of the upcoming primary states. He does not excite or motivate the dem base. Clark excites only those scared folks who think Bush is unbeatable and want a big father figure war hawk to protect them.



"Remember: in order to put a Democrat in office, there must be a move of about 10% of the military vote which is a huge vote in this country. Dean has never had that appeal."


LOL!! Where did you get that idea? Dean doesn't have to get a single military vote to win in a country where 50% of people are not even registered to vote, and of those that are only about 50% ever turn out to vote.

And Dean has so much appeal that he's beating the snot out of the war hawk candidates.

[damnraddem]

40. Does Dean's admitting that he was not and is not an idiot hurt him?

In the South?

If it does hurt him, does this mean that he should instead be an idiot? If so, how would he be different from most other politicians?

[Marines for Clark]

44. Moon my reply

Moon
I am not a fan of Bush at all. People here see Bush as pilot in the Air National Guard they avoid thinking that he awol . They say their is no proof that he ever awoled. I tell thme he did but you can't change their minds at all when comes to a Republican president. Clark is getting a lot of support here in Camp Lejeume because of his military record and because some of us know him. The south is very strong military minded.

[MoonAndSun]

52. Thanks for your reply back, Marines For Clark,

your comment about not changing their minds because he is a repuke president says it all. They could see a live shot of AWOL raping or murdering someone but because he is a repuke president, they would still not believe it or make up excuses for it.

Pathetic, and Dean never had these people's votes anyway, so the point is moot.

[Rowdyboy]

81. No, Dean never had those votes....

What Marines is saying, however, is that Clark could....

[lastliberalintexas]

144. Not really

And that's my question. He keeps saying that there is a good deal of support for Kerry or Clark, but that the Marines* he serves with still admire Shrub. Well, support doesn't mean votes. I haven't seen him post anything that says that they will actually abandon Shrub in favor of Clark or Kerry, just that they "support" them.

So my question is, how many have said that they would vote for the Democratic Party candidate if it is either Clark or Kerry RATHER THAN vote for Shrub?


*I call them marines. My brother the former Marine would die if they were referred to as anything else. As far as he and every other Marine I've ever spoken with are concerned, soldiers are the guys in the Amry who couldn't have made it in the Marines. (joking!)

[Bill of Rights]

54. www.awolbush.com

Marine,

Surf over here and get evidence for your friends.

Michelle

[Classical_Liberal]

91. Whomever is the nominee needs to make it an issue and get

Bush on the record. It should be a campaign commercial.

[fujiyama]

41. To be honest

I was impressed by his candor. I appreciated his honesty in stating "I didn't want to go". That kind of thing is rare in a politician. It is possible, that it makes him less electable. Than again, maybe that's why most politicians aren't really that honest.

[Tom Rinaldo]

76. Dean's Candor

I was impressed too. That's one of the things I like about Dean, when he is candid, although it is always tricky for a politician to decide how candid they can get away with being. Elsewhere on this thread I said that not having served is a disadvantage for Dean. Given that, I think he is playing it right though. He obeyed the law, and would have served, and was glad he didn't have to. None of that "but I didn't inhale" slipperiness.

[Dob Bole]

43. No, it won't.

The south already has plenty of reasons not to vote for Dean. His only hope is a good running mate. (Edwards?)

[Nicholas_J]

46. South Carolina

Has the largest number of ex-veterans and in particular, ex Vietnam Veterans in the country.

Also recent polls have shown that blacks oppose Deans civil unions stance by 60 percent to 40 percent, nationwide.

[HFishbine]

68. Whaaat?

No source? Shocking!

Of course, little shock that you are incorrect. States with largest veteran populations:

1) California
2) Florida
3) Texas
4) New York

http://www.claycountygov.com/Veteran_Services.htm

Of course, technically you did write "ex-veterans," so perhpas you are referring to veterans who are deceased -- but no that can't be because they have a low voter turnout, making them irrelevant to this discussion.

I'm pretty sure you must have been talking out of your elbow. It amazes me that people think they can type something and make it so. Are there still people who haven't heard of Google?

Now, about that poll that showed 60% of blacks opposing granting homoesexuals equal protection under the law. You were closer. It's actually 51%.

http://washtimes.com/national/20031128-100829-9541r.htm

Not that it matters. The whole issue is moot, unless you're a Lieberman supporter, because Dean's position on equal rights for gays is no different from the other nominees.

[Chomskyite]

139. And

the ex-POW McCain lost in South Carolina to a guy who deserted from his Texas Air National Guard unit.

[Tom Rinaldo]

47. Some people approve, some people don't

Some people could care less. That about covers how people react to what Dean did or did not do during the Viet Nam war. One size does not fit all, never has, never will. Some people think resisting the war was honorable, some think it was treasonous, many think it's water under the bridge. Some think wanting to serve made sense, some think not wanting to serve made sense. Some have more respect for veterens than the average Joe, some less, and so on and so forth.

It just so happens that a higher proportion of the people who really think that American Males of a certain age should have "answered the call to serve" during the Viet Nam War live in the South than in other regions. Same can be said for different reasons about those currently serving in the military regarding that question. With those people Dean will rate higher than a draft dodger but lower than a vet, on that score. Some will unfairly consider Dean "not wanting to be drafted" as some kind of "draft dodger lite". Now it's true that many of these same people will look past this one emotional topic to other considerations in picking their candidate, but given how Republican southern states have been trending, overall Dean's relationship with the Draft won't be helpful for Democrats in the South, that part is a liability. Bush will play on that.

This isn't bashing, it's a fact, and you know darn well Dean's people are working hard at thinking of ways to compensate for that disadvantage in Southern states, and that's exactly what they are supposed to be doing. Closing their eyes to that reality would not be helpful during the General Election. Downplaying it now might be helpful during the Democratic Primaries but that's a different story. Given the current war and terrorism induced backdrop to the national campaign, Dean's lack of military service is not one of his strengths right now. He has plenty of other strengths, and he is very skilled at using those strengths.

As to Bush having technically gone A.W.O.L. (I say technically because he was not charged), I am sure Dean will find some way to work that into the national debate if he gets the nomination. It will certainly help the Democratic candidate score some points against "a war time President", but Kerry and Clark are the ones positioned to score the most points on that issue, that's simply a fact. That doesn't prove that Dean is unelectable by any stretch. But don't expect the nation to suddently go Aha!, and conclude Bush is a fraud. Most people never believed how massive a percentage of the tax cut dollars went to the rich, really, they still don't. Most people believed that Hussein was behind 9/11. Most people think Bush served honorably in the National Guard, and they won't be confused by facts. Some will, but most won't. And doesn't that Bush look manly standing around with Fire Fighters and Soldiers in a mess hall. It will be a challange overcoming that crap, one which Dean might well be up to, but don't deny it's there.

[karlschneider]

58. Yep, Tom, you make some very salient points. We cannot afford to forget

the 'war chest' that Chimpy has to work with. $200M will buy a lot of propaganda, and would do so even in a balanced media. Multiply that by 2 or 3 considering the corporate (big Republican donor) ownership of television and the probable fudge factors emanating from the GOP owned voting machine companies.

The challenge is immense and calls for serious measures. We do not have the luxury of massaging the law to engage in quasi-legal manuvering as the GOP does, since the administration, the congress and courts are in cahoots, but we have to push the envelope. Timidity is a losing option at this juncture.

[SharonAnn]

55. Bush not wanting to go to Vietnam didn't hurt him!

eom

[Tom Rinaldo]

62. I disagree

I'm sure it hurt him some, meaning I am sure he lost some votes on that to Gore who did serve. That was not one of Bush's advantages in that election. No one candidate ever holds all of the advantages in any election. But it wasn't a central theme for the election in 2000, and Bush played his cards well (Just like I think Dean will - Dean is good at playing his hand, with whatever cards are dealt, well). Starting out holding the Republican standard, with it's "strong on defence" associations for the majority of Americans, helped Bush nuetralize his "spotty" service record. So did the fact that the country was at peace. So did the fact that Bush was Gov. of Texas. So did Bush's rugged smirking demeanor compared to Gore's wooden geekness or whatever you want to call it. For the most part Bush was given a free ride on Viet Nam and his obsolete fighter plane. The issue wasn't played up by Gore's campaign, maybe that was a mistake, but the economy seemed to be the Democrats best issue at the time. Bush will play his Commander in Chief routine for everything it's worth this time. I do believe that Dean, if he gets the nomination, will be strong at coming at Bush regarding his chickenhawk posturing. He will not run the type of campaign that Gore ran.

[caledesi]

56. As far as Vietnam goes, why should this be an issue when the

South voted for AWOL *.

[ecstatic]

59. southerners aren't stupid

They understand that Dean was being honest and down to earth. Lets stop with these negative, self fulfilling prophecies already. Dean is honest and its refreshing. Who cares if some uptight liars get offended?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AnnitaR]

67. Gee, wish I had 628 posts...

then my opinion on things would count around here!

:eyes:

I've always thought the Pukes were the party of exclusion! Seems like a lot of Deanettes around here would make the Pukes proud!

[Rowdyboy]

82. Sad, I thought we had gotten beyond "my post count is bigger

than yours"...Its very middle-school.

[newyawker99]

110. AnnitaR

Your opinion is just as valuable as mine and I have way more posts than you do. Please share your opinion whenever you want and if no one else has told you this, let me be the first to say Welcome to DU! I am very glad you joined us and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

:-)

[Rose Siding]

63. And Clark wanting stricter gun laws will hurt him

in the South

We all have our own private devils

[Tom Rinaldo]

65. Yes, I bet it will

In a sense you are making a similar point, and I agree. And I hope Clark's campaign is hard at work planning exactly how they will deal with the reprocussions of that position in the South and other states that the NRA has a lot of support in. That's all I am saying. Every candidate has different natural advantages and disadvantages with different voting groups. If you reread my posts on this thread you will see that I bent over backwards to say that I am not saying Dean can't run an effective campaign, or win. I also said I expect Dean to fight hard, and I think that is what he will need to do, and he is someone who can do just that.

In my opinion, and it is of course just my opinion, Clarks cumulative package gives him more relative strengths in the South than Dean has. But your reply is great, that's what I mean about playing the cards dealt you well. Dean has to be careful not to overplay his favorable NRA rating on the stump in the South less it hurt him in more liberal areas like the cities in Ohio he would need to carry strongly. I for one think Dean is a good campaigner, with a great team behind him. I think he can pull that type stuff off.

[BootinUp]

80. Clarks strategy

You know its hard to see what Clark is doing differently from a policy standpoint than Clinton. I think both his foreign policies and domestic are very similar. Of course the war is something we didn't have. And because of that I don't think its an easy win for Clark. Also, Bush II dirty campaign tactics are like Bush I on steroids.

Its going to be interesting whoever gets the nod.

[Kurovski]

77. I dunno if it will. Will the South continue to hurt itself

by voting R? I wish every Dem candidate would try to speak to the entire country and give us all a wake up call.

If Bush is doing such a good job for the military then why are almost half of the current troops saying they have no intention of re-inlisting?

this administrations shows disrespect for our troops by short-changing them at nearly every turn.

I admit admiration for Bush's trip to Iraq, but he has a long list of things to do if he expects to keep up the morale.

[madfloridian]

78. Didn't hurt him in this area of the *South*.

We have got a car full of people riding to the meet-up tomorrow, all new folks.

[CWebster]

84. How the South will reject Dean

Is the latest Clark corps meme. Anyone notice?

[Classical_Liberal]

85. Didn't hurt Clinton

I don' think we can say for sure, since I don't think he has much of a chance in the South anyway.

[VermontDem2004]

96. Sure as hell didn't hurt Clinton in the south

I am sure many don't care because it wasn't like he dodged the draft, he got a deferment.

[Jack_Dawson]

99. Clinton was FROM the south - big diff

[VermontDem2004]

100. It doesn't matter

The fact that Clinton dodged the draft didn't hurt him in the general election, the fact that Dead didn't dodge the draft but got a deferment instead should not impact him in the least bit.

[Jack_Dawson]

102. Good Logic

All things being equal, southerners should trust yankees as much as southerners. Put down the bong my well-intended friend.

[VermontDem2004]

104. If you think the fact that he got a deferment will hurt him is your

opinion. I don't think that is the case, after Al Gore the Southerner didn't win a single southern state even Florida and he didn't even carry his own state.

[Classical_Liberal]

106. Gore is Southern and didn't dodge the draft, and he did worse the Clinton

maybe southerners like draft dodgers! Not coming from the South may hurt, but coming from the South doesn't really seem to help.

[HuckleB]

130. Conventional wisdom.

It's an interesting thing. I guess we should continue to use it, after all it underestimates the intelligence of our fellow citizens. Clearly place of birth is at the top of everyone's list of determinants when voting for president.

[rumguy]

98. I can't believe so many of you responded to this thread...

The original posting hardly makes sense. So many great well-thought out threads die a quick death and this hasitly slapped together nonsense gets all this attention? What a joke!

It makes me lose faith people...

[CMT]

108. yes we must always watch what we say because of the south

can't be inclusive and must run to the right if we are going to win the south. Hell, may as well just nominate Lieberman.

[Octafish]

109. Dean's a coward, like Bush.

No matter where they're from, the men and women in the US armed forces don't want a coward as Commander-in-Chief. Bush is a coward and you can see how the service people feel about him in those photos from Iraq.

Dean, likewise, is a coward. No matter he showed up with a note from his doctor and an X-ray, Dean spent that winter skiing. I guess it's his conservative nature.

[ima_sinnic]

116. speaking of COWARDS, yessing BushCo is hardly brave

--real courage is standing up for your principles and convictions, not voting expediently to enable a fraudulent war just so you won't be lambasted and criticized by the repukes.

Dean's courage in standing up against BushCo is quite apparent--unlike SOME candidates who shall remain nameless.

[Octafish]

118. Coward Dean, a moderate -- conservative on fiscal issues.

Which of course is where the MONEY of governing comes in.

So what's that have to do with dodging the draft?

Here's the definition of a conservative I, a Democrat, agree with:

"A conservative is a man who is too cowardly to fight,
and too fat to run."
— Elbert Hubbard

BTW: Courage also means conquering one's fear. Dean was afraid of going to Vietnam. He chickened out there, too. Brave people like Kerry and Clark did go.

[ima_sinnic]

119. coward Kerry, Iraq war enabler, peace protestor/warrior

which one is it, anyway?
he either opposed the Vietnam war, or he fought in it. gee, I guess committing himself to one side or the other would require balls. Anyone who supports a cowardly BushCo yes-man has no right to call any other candidate a coward.

By the way, I suppose you WOULDN'T have been afraid to go to Vietnam? Only a goddam fool, or a total idiot, wouldn't have been. which are you? which one was Kerry?

[Octafish]

121. Nice job on offering the false choice. Howard is still a coward.

Either way you force an answer you want. Like you trying to get me to call myself a coward or a kook. Nice smear.

In answer to your "questions": John Kerry fought the war to protect the country. Once there, he discovered it wasn't what the political leaders (LBJ and "successors" of JFK) said it was. As soon as he was out of uniform, he did all he could to stop it.

I was in junior and senior high during Vietnam. For two years (1970-1972), I attended an honor military academy. While there, I made the acquaintance of several cadets with older brothers who were serving in Vietnam. One of my best friends there lost his brother in Vietnam. Despite the atmosphere, every single cadet I knew was against the war.

But I'm not the subject. Howard the draft dodger is. Howard didn't bother to protest the war. What's even more cowardly, the guy spent that winter he got out of the draft skiing, bad back and all.

[TLM]

138. How is going on with your life cowardly?

"In answer to your "questions": John Kerry fought the war to protect the country. Once there, he discovered it wasn't what the political leaders (LBJ and "successors" of JFK) said it was. As soon as he was out of uniform, he did all he could to stop it."


Yet he now is sending kids to yet another war like vietnam that is not what the politicans say it is... only now Kerry is one of the cowardly politicans sending other people's children off to die.

Pretty sick if you ask me.


"I was in junior and senior high during Vietnam. For two years (1970-1972), I attended an honor military academy. While there, I made the acquaintance of several cadets with older brothers who were serving in Vietnam. One of my best friends there lost his brother in Vietnam. Despite the atmosphere, every single cadet I knew was against the war."


Ahh so you consider them cowards because they were not excited and eager to go to vietnam after havign family memebers die over there?

Or is that yet another standard you hold just for attackign Dean?


"But I'm not the subject. Howard the draft dodger is. Howard didn't bother to protest the war. What's even more cowardly, the guy spent that winter he got out of the draft skiing, bad back and all."

How is it cowardly to go on with your life after being REJECTED by the draft board? And exactly how does one dodge the draft by GOING to the draft induction and telling the truth about a back condition?

Oh and what part of skiing is more stressful on the back than combat?

[Octafish]

147. Pick and choose what you want. The truth is Dean is a draft-dodger.

And Kerry did not ask for war. Bush is commander-in-chief. He asked Congress, a GOP controlled Congress, to give him authority to wage war, as a last resort, if the country was imperiled by WMDs. Remember?

Regarding war. The President may need to send service people to certain death. A commander-in-chief should never ask men and women to do something he himself would not do.

Regarding Dean. No matter how angry it makes you, the fact remains that Dean dodged the draft for his "bad back" and spent that winter skiing in Vale, Colorado. Dean said so himself in several interviews. Many of the people in politics today, almost all Republican, found a way to avoid the draft. Like COWARD DEAN, they were well-connected and their families could afford it.

BTW: The present example is bad enough, but at least Smirk wore a uniform. Karl Rove will likely make sure every TV set in America spews that image a few times. Rove is likely to show some pics of Howard Dean hitting the slopes. And that's why Ho-Ho the Mogul Jumper is UNELECTABLE.

[TLM]

137. Yeah I just love the way Kerry bravly lied about throwing his metals

over the white house fence to get the support for his poltical career, then bravly voted for the patriot act and bravly voted to send kids to another hell hole war with no purpose.

Or how Clark was so brave when he ordered the bombing of journalists and civilians in kosovo. Yeah nothing braver than someone killing someone else.

Frankly it takes a hell of a lot more bravery to spend one's life learning to save lives as a doctor, than learning to take them as a soldier.

Any idiot can take a life, it takes a real hero to save one.

[Octafish]

148. At least Kerry had some medals to throw!

Certainly Kerry used somebody else's decorations to protest the war. He used them to make a point that needed to be made in the fight to end the war in Vietnam.

The fact remains, Kerry earned his Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. He got those for gallantry in combat, courage under fire.

And you are correct. Heros save lives. Kerry saved the life of one man who fell overboard. He held on to him while under fire from shore, even though grazed by a bullet. He held on.

BTW: Dean really is a coward. He dodged the draft and went skiing. Neither did he volunteer for military service during Vietnam or protest the war. How many lives could he have saved by standing up and being counted?

[HuckleB]

126. Baloney attacks are also cowardly.

Dean is hardly a coward. You are playing cliches, rather than constructively debating the candidates. That sort of act is only going ot hurt the Dem nominee, whoever that is, period.

[Octafish]

131. Spending the winter skiing shows Dean's back was fine.

Showing up at the draft board with a letter from an orthopedic specialist and an X-ray demonstrating a bad back was not an option for most Americans — only the sons of priviledge were given that way out.

[HuckleB]

133. No, it doesn't.

My back would never get past a military physical, and I still ski and bike and hike all the time.

[Octafish]

150. Ho-Ho's own words...

Dean admits using deferment to skirt draft

November 24, 2003

BY DAVID RENNIE

WASHINGTON -- Howard Dean, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, has admitted dodging the Vietnam draft, obtaining a medical deferment for a back condition and then spending 10 months skiing.

Asked if he could have served 33 years ago despite his back condition, Dean told the New York Times: "I guess that's probably true. I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

CONTINUED...

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-dean24.html

[TLM]

141. And tell me what medical school did you graduate from?

You seem to have more knowledge of how back conditions are agravated by combat and traiing than the draft board doctors. So where'd you get your medical degree again?

Also did Dean ski with 60 or 70 pounds of gear on his back?


"Showing up at the draft board with a letter from an orthopedic specialist and an X-ray demonstrating a bad back was not an option for most Americans — only the sons of priviledge were given that way out."

Once again, where do you get this retarded idea that only the rich had acess to doctors in the 60's? An X-ray wasn't some space aged million dollar procedure, even in the 60's. Most people had access to basic levels of care.

And the fact is even if they did not have an x-ray and a doctor's note, the average kids who told the draft board doc that they had pain in their back when they ran, would get that checked out in the physical.

And even if they made it passed the physical, the problem would have shown up the first time they had to run 5 or 10 milies in full gear.

So this whole argument is stupid and desperate.

But I guess the war hawk candidates, Kerry, CLark, and Bush all have nothing else to run on so they will all campaign the same way, use the same tactics, and harp on Dean being rejected by the draft board.

[Octafish]

149. I'm no doc, but I can spot a phony. Dean's back was OK when he hiked VT.

This light-weight backpack helped Ho-Ho hike 250 miles.
Do you think the US Army could've found him one?



‘Green’ governor finishes hiking ‘green tunnel’

The Herald of Randolph
June 7, 2001

RANDOLPH, Vt. — Five very tired, very wet, very determined seventh-grade girls from Randolph, Vt., helped Gov. Howard Dean achieve a personal goal Monday — his own end-to-end trek of Vermont’s 250-mile-Long Trail.

In return, the girls got a note excusing them from the next day’s phys ed class at RUHS. The note was signed by a doctor — Dr. Howard Dean.

Nine students and leaders from the White River Craft Center set off with Gov. Dean at 8:30 a.m. from Route 242 near Jay Peak, headed north toward Canada.

The group had stayed overnight on the trail the previous evening, bedding down at the Laura Woodward Shelter. They wanted to be on hand bright and early when the governor arrived, intent on finishing the northernmost 13.3 miles of trail. It was the only section that Gov. Dean hadn’t hiked so far.

CONTINUED...

http://www.aldha.org/howdean.htm

[ScreamingMeemie]

114. I have yet to meet a person who was excited at the prospect of

being drafted...my father included. You go because you "have" to, not because you "want" to. When you "want" to go...you enlist. I admire Dean for saying what most, if not all draftees would say.

[Hep]

117. Who better understands the horros of war

than military people? Those wives and husbands left alone in the states while their spouses go fight in an unjust war understand not want ing to participate. Anyone old enough to remember Vietnam knows the feeling of not wanting to go. Those not old enough have seen Full Metal Jacket a hundred times and don't blame anyone for not wanting to go to war.

Dean showed up. He never said he wouldn't fight if drafted. Good enough for me.

[dkf]

123. I don't get it. Doesn't everyone who gets drafted NOT want to go to war?

If they wanted to go, wouldn't they have enlisted?

[dansolo]

124. Will this attitude change if Bush reinstitutes the draft?

Will people be as opposed to Dean because he admits that he didn't want to go to Vietnam if they are faced with the prospects of being drafted and sent to Iraq/Iran/Syria/wherever?

[Darth_Ole]

140. Exactly.

If Chimpy reinstates the draft, today's youth will have to put up with the same issues from 30+ years ago. Nobody who's drafted WANTS to go.

Remember, Hitler was a war hero, too.

[TLM]

143. THat's a great question.... if a new draft becomes an issue

Dean will get every 18-25 year old in the country voting for him.

[brent of rppper]

146. actually....if i may add

i don't think it's going to realy hurt him that much...in reason i say this because he is being truthfull to US people..which is one good quality of a good president..now i will say every president for about the last 50-70 years has had there ups and downs...(but none as bad as bush :(...but if he is being truthfull to the people i would not think it would really affect him in the south....

[Silverhair]

151. Yes & No.

Yes, Dean's draft dodging will hurt him in the South.

No. Because of the electoral college system, it doesn't matter. The Southern electoral votes are already lost anyway.

[Hep]

152. It's really hurt him so far

That's why he's among the top candidates in SC, enjoying a marked improvement in the polls since the whole thing started.