Explain the Fundies' love affair with the Jewish right

[FlashHarry]

I don't get it. When I was a kid, my best friend (who was Jewish) had a burning cross planted on his lawn by local fundie Christians.

Now, they seem to be in cahoots with Sharon and the Likud party. What gives? Are they trying to 'protect' Israel for Biblical reasons? Do they secretly still hate Jews because 'they murdered Christ?' It seems very incongruous to me.

On edit: Although, I get the feeling that conservative Christians have more of an affinity for the Old Testament (fire, brimstone, etc.) than the New Testament (peace, love, turn-the-other-cheek, etc.). Could that be it?

[rucky]

1. I'm a little sketchy on that one too...

...But the best explanations I've seen are apocolyptic. Something about Judgement Day and the Jews being "saved" by converting to Christianity.

[donco6]

2. Why fundies love Jews

In a nutshell, fundies believe that God gave Israel to the Jews, via the Old Testament passages re: "land flowing with milk and honey". Since they believe in the OT, they feel that supporting the Jewish state is in line with God's will. They also believe that Jesus will return to earth on the Mount of Olives, as stated in Revelation. Therefore, to gain a front seat to the Return of Christ, it's best to make friends where a natural affinity lies. And finally, fundies in general don't like Muslims.

It's generally the fundamentalists and charismatics who are the Sharon fans. Mainstream Christians aren't as sentimental about the whole thing.

[Exultant Democracy]

3. it is because of the book of revilations

The book of revelations says that one of the signs of the end of the world will be when the Jews rebuild one of their most holy temples. The tricky part is that right now one of the Muslims most holy mosque is on the same site. The fundies hope is that the Jews will tear down the Muslim Mosque to rebuild their own temple, and thus lead us toward the end of the world.

[lastliberalintexas]

8. Yes, something about "restoring" the ME or the Jewish people

I'm not very clear on this either. But an End Timer Fundie friend of my mother talks about how Shrub will help "restore" the ME and the Jewish people so that God can keep his promise to mankind. It has something to do with their hope/belief that Shrub will help bring about the Second Coming and the Rapture- if he isn't the actual Messiah himself.

[tnlefty]

14. God needs * to fulfill a promise??? Hahahaha

I'm not laughing at you. I know a few of these types and their deluded thinking cracks me up when it's not scaring the crap out of me!

[Lars39]

4. Biblical prophecies in the book of Revelations.

The fundies believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, hence the urge for them to make the prophecies true. :shudder:

[UnapologeticLiberal]

5. An explanation

Basically, the Christian Right "supports" Israel because they think that the Jews have to have all of Biblical Israel (which most Jews have given up on and accepted that the Palestinians will eventually get some of it) in order for Jesus to come back. At this time, 1/3 of all Jews living in the land will convert and embrace Jesus and be saved, and the other 2/3 will go to hell.

Now, why do some Jews embrace these people? This is a trickier question. Most Jews know why the Christian Right "supports" Israel and what their real motives are, but the bottom line is, sometimes lately the Christian Right seems a lot warmer to us than the liberal groups we have always been a part of. Even I sometimes feel uncomfortable not so much with the Democratic Party, but here at DU and in other very liberal circles, because sometimes I really feel like we are not wanted and that a lot of liberals wish we'd just become Republicans already so that Democrats would not have to support Israel anymore. So while most of us are still inherently uncomfortable with the Christian Right, they are making some inroads in our community, in part because they have worked hard to change the cross-burning, clan member image that most of us have of them and make us feel more comfortable, at the same time that many liberal groups are making us feel more and more estranged. It is a phenomena that is a great concern to me, because many Jews who are my age don't remember the cross burnings and clan violence and they wonder what is so bad about a group that seems to be going out of its way to be nice to us.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Dems have already "purged"

many white ethnics and rural folks from the party. "Purging" Jews with their financial support and intellectual energy would be a grave mistake. I could see middle class Asians and Hispanics who vote 65-35% Democrat following Jews out the door.

Anyway, I think the Christian right is further to the right on the Israeli-Palestinian issue than most Jews.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

10. Absolutely right

"Anyway, I think the Christian right is further to the right on the Israeli-Palestinian issue than most Jews."

This is definitely true. In order for Jesus to come back, according to their thinking, the Jews must control every inch of biblical territory (even though the Bible contradicts itself several times in defining the boundaries, so I am not sure what their definition is). Therefore, any compromise with the Palestinians is not acceptable to them.

[CWebster]

31. Why does the Left make you uncomfortable?

?

[Spintronic]

39. I feel it too

I wish I could explain it, but I don't have the energy. Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't believe Israel can do no wrong (I think I put enough negatives in there). Still, I feel uncomfortable in many situations with large groups of liberals (such as meetings for the TA union I'm in). I just feel as though I'm considered one of the Israelli opressors. I usually try to keep my religion and especially my allegence to Israel to myself.

[leesa]

34. I don't get it ...are you Israeli??

Because if you aren't what on earth does your Jewishness have to do with Liberals being disgusted with the government of Israel's policies of genocide? Basically we are disgusted with any government that behaves that way, including our own.
At least those of us who are opposed to Israel right now are being up front and honest about disliking the Israeli government...it has nothing to do with Jews as you would like to twist it. The Fundies are using you to the max! Believe me, there is no love lost for Jews in the Fundie community. Check it out sometime anonymously, not as a Jew. They have to play along so they can be in Jerusalem at the designated time. They are pretty much fully deluded.

[ewagner]

37. Goes back a long way

Even The British government was influenced by what they knew as Zionism back in 1912-1914. Winston Churchill himself claimed to be a Zionist because a Zionist back then was one who believed that Christians had a duty to give Israel back the promised land. (At that time it was a complete and whole Palestine) The public sentiment in England at that time was such that it allowed Britain to get involved in ejecting the Ottoman Empire from Palestine and the entire ME. The result was truly "A Peace to End All Peace". (a book I highly recommend.

It appears later day fundies are even more militant about establishing Israel's dominance in the holy land. I worked with a whole company of fundies and they used to spend their breaks talking about Israel's importance to the rapture.

I know, I know...mostly just cocktail info... but it has been going on for a long time........

[a_random_joel]

6. Conversion

Fundies are trying to guide this "lost", but powerful voting bloc, at least until they can convert them.

[a_random_joel]

7. Of course

Most Jews can see right through it, and continue to overwhelmingly support the Democratic Party and liberal causes in general.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

12. This is true, but I am worried

Because Jews my age do not have the same ties to the Democratic Party as their parents and grandparents, and when they ask me why, from a self-interest point of view, they should vote Democratic, I can't give them one single reason. I think that most of them come from Democratic families and have a social conscious that I can appeal to, but at some point, you have to be able to appeal to someone's self-interest, and right now I can't do that.

I think it may get better though. At age 18, most people don't care a lot about domestic policy. But my friends care a lot about Israel, so for right now that is how a lot of them make their decision. When they get older and start paying taxes and paying for their own health care and some of them get married and have kids, then I am hopeful they will pay attention to more domestic issues, and hopefully their sense of social justice will override their self-interest.

[Pallas180]

16. Social Justice. In a nutshell. That is why Jews have usually

voted democratic. They have a memory and their
parents memory that FDR helped the Jews - of course
he really didn't and couldn't have cared less until
Morgenthau threatened to quit if FDR didnt do something
to stop the slaughter.

[Aaron]

17. Is your/your friends' synagogue aligned with a particular branch?

Orthodox, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, something else?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. If Jews Voted Their Economic Self Interest They'd Vote Overwhelmingly

Republican.

George Will once said Jews have the economic demographics of a WASP and the voting patterns of a Puerto Rican.

[Lars39]

21. That's a hateful remark.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Don't Think He Was Being Hateful

[Lars39]

35. It sounds like a racist statement to me.

Corporations and the people who head them might be better off with a Republican president, but the regular joes are much better off with a Democratic president.

[Pallas180]

22. George Will sucks lemons. He appears to be the stereotypical

Wasp anti-semite.

[a_random_joel]

36. That is a VERY irresponsible comment

1. Who doesn't vote their economic self-interest?
2. It is a cheap shot against a very common stereotype leveled against Jews.
3. George Will is an idiot. Quoting him does nothing for your credibility here.

The fact is, many Jews DO support liberal ideology, as it is part of the religion. Now I/P issues aside, the majority of Jews believe in social justice - it's in the Bible. The majority of Jews were raised believing charity is the greatest "mitzvah". The majority of Jews are extremely tolerant(aside from marrying outside the faith).

You seem to be stirring up the pot. Careful, friend.

[lastliberalintexas]

19. You can't give them one single reason to vote Dem?

How about the fact that what Dems support would probably stabilize the region more than what the End Timers are demanding? Dems do solidly support a strong Israeli state, so I don't see why a Jewish person who cares a lot about Israel could vote any other way. The End Timers really only want to de-stabilize the region and bring about the destruction of Israel's people.

Then there's also the idea that the fundies believe you and your friends will and SHOULD burn in hell. They still blame you for the crucifiction of Christ, after all. Also that they want state mandated CHRISTIAN prayer and theology to dictate the parameters of public life in America.

I can think of many reasons for a Jewish person to avoid the RW at all cost.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I'm Not Jewish-I'm A Southern Baptist

Immersed in a Baptismal Pool on a January 1974 evening in good ole
Deltona, Florida.

[Lars39]

25. I've lost my Moon primer links. Maybe someone will help out.

The Rev. Moon has had considerable influence on the SBC.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Southern Baptists Are More Or Less Literalists.

They are at odds with the Moonies and the Unification Church.

I know they don't believe in the Virgin Birth.

That's our biggy...

[Lars39]

30. The folks in the pews don't like Moon, but the head honchos do.

Try googling Moon, LeHaye, Southern Baptists, Left Behind.

[lastliberalintexas]

28. Ok, but

my reply was to UnapologeticLiberal.

[11cents]

15. Fact is

...that Jews have supported the Democrats for reasons that have nothing to do with Israel, but rather with their overall liberalism. There's no evidence yet that the GOP has made inroads on the Jewish vote -- the latest relevant poll showed that Jewish support for the Democrats remained at around 70%, as it has been for some time, and Jews give GWB much lower favoribility ratings than does the general population. As a Jew, I'm really insulted by the notion that I would vote on the basis of what I think is best for Israel instead of what's best for the US -- and that's the tacit assumption that the GOP is obviously making. Further, US Jews are not necessarily happy with the Likud approach to things, so the fact that the GOP is cozying up to the Likud isn't a point in its favor.

All that said, I too get upset at the goings-on here and on similar boards sometimes -- and I'm personally quite ambivalent about Israel. What bugs me is how many people just really don't recognize hoary old antisemitic rhetoric when it's perfectly blatant (at least to those with an adequate fund of historical knowledge). It's true that anti-Israel does not necessarily imply antisemitic, but a lot of people seem to hold to an invalid counter-conclusion -- that if it's anti-Israel it can't possibly also be antisemitic.

And yeah, most Jews do understand that the Christian right views us as mere pawns in their apocalyptic game, and that in their narrative most of us end up dead and in "hell" while the few survivors become Christians. Even Israeli rightists understand this -- but they find the Christian right useful anyway. It's a repugnant relationship from both sides.

[Pallas180]

20. 11 cents said

>>And yeah, most Jews do understand that the Christian right views us as mere pawns in their apocalyptic game, and that in their narrative most of us end up dead and in "hell" while the few survivors become Christians. Even Israeli rightists understand this -- but they find the Christian right useful anyway. It's a repugnant relationship from both sides.<<

AMEN

[ButterflyBlood]

11. because of the only part of the New Testament that they care about

the Book of Revelations. They want the Jews to take control over all of the Middle East, basically Israel can do whatever the fuck it wants to do. Gunning down Palestinean children is part of God's will. Then Christ will return, 1/3 of the Jews will convert, and the other 2/3 will be slaughtered. Their support is actually based on an anti-semetic belief.

[Pallas180]

13. Robertson and Falwell have had bases and radio stations and been

sucking up to the Israelis for more than a decade - the bible says Armageddon
will be in Israel and 144,000 will be saved when Jesus Christ returns at the final armagedoon or conflagration. So the robertson's
of the world think they will be saved if they're in Israel. (They're
also very busy trying to convert Jews to Christianity) They missed
the point in the bible or in their version of the bible tht it will
be 144000 JEWS that will be saved.

They're cheering for a third world war to take place in the Middle East and pushing it at every moment, FAlwell talks to Bush weekly you
know.

This is a very sick bunch of people. Equal to the Bin ladens of the
world. No difference.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. There's Not

much room between Bush and the leading Democratic candidates on the Middle East issue anyway.

[CWebster]

27. Here

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=7&q=http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_isra.htm&e=912

[leesa]

32. Fundies need the Jews to have control of Jerusalem for their

fairy tale of The Rapture to come true. The Jews will be in control of Jerusalem and the Fundies are to try to convert them. 200,000 will be saved and the rest are stuck to duke it out with the rest of us sinners.
Fundies are people who simply cannot cope with life and are looking to avoid any and all responsibility by playing out this fantasy. Of course the bible is quite explicit in its warning of doom against anyone who forces the Rapture as these people have done and it very clearly states that you cannot predict the time of the Rapture, but these people have their tarot cards out and have seen the signs. That's why Bush and Sharon's crimes and lies and murders don't matter to them as you think they would. Bush is leading the way to armegeddon and they will gladly support the murder and mayhem that will trigger it.

The Bush Crime Family plays these people like a fiddle.

[mitchum]

33. In order to bring about their crazyass rapture nonsense....

but I heard a liberal Jewish scholar say that it was a grave mistake for the Isrealis to reach an accord with them "since the fundamentalist myth is a five act play, and the Jews disappear in the fourth act" Well said...

[Astarho]

38. Like others said, they need them

They need Jerusalem or Israel to regain it's biblical boundries so that the prophecies of Revelations (Which IMO they are grossly misreading) can come about and they will be raptured into heaven and escape their dreary miserable lives and gain some satisfaction by watching God punish all their "enemies"

Of course when Jesus comes back all the Jews will convert to Christianity thus eliminating the Jews.