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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 02:59 PM
Original message
Identity Crisis
My closest friend and favorite verbal combatant got frustrated with me, and as with most right wingers, ended our conversation with “Jesus your such a fucking liberal!”

Now before you condemn him I grew up with this guy, he’s like a brother to me, and I feel I will convert him some day.
Before the question you will need to know some info, so here goes.

1. I vote Democrat
2. Your pets (my Blue Healer “CJ”) should be treated like humans, but bacon tastes gooood!
3. I support Roe V. Wade
4. I believe in a total complete separation of church and state.
5. I could care less if you Gay or Lesbian, it’s your choice, several of my best friends are.
6. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people
7. Deep down I feel Global warming is occurring, but we don’t have enough scientific data to prove it or the reasons for it.
(Careful BS Environmental Management and MS Environmental Engineering)
8. I believe Saddam was a sub-human dictator and a threat to the Middle East
9. “The Mainstream Media” is slanted both ways, it depends on what channel and who your watching
10. Lawyers, insurance companies and stock brokers control this country more than we realize
11. The IRS is outdated and a Federal sales tax is the solution
12. ALL politicians lie
13. Socialized medicine only for low income families

With all this in mind am I a liberal, progressive, moderate what?
A scale of 1 to 10 ?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. You sound like a moderate to me
If you said you vote Democratic, instead of Democrat, I might say you were liberal.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Moderate liberal sounds about right.
With 0 being ultraliberal, and 10 being uberconservative, and 5 being in the middle, I'd put you at an 3.75.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. You're a right winger or have been brainwashed by the RW media
You spelled it D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T that makes you a Right winger or brainwashed by the Right Wing MEdia (there is no liberal media, that's the single biggest lie of the right).

The correct spelling is D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T-I-C.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Product of a wise Grandfather
He lived to be 99 and in east Texas you vote for the DEMOCRAT,
Your correct though it is Democratic candidate.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Walt is trying to say that's a Bushevik slur.
It is VERY similar to the use of "Jew lawyer" instead of "Jewish Lawyer". It has the same connotation of contemtuous dismissal and is even said in the same tone and style by the Wingers who wield it like a club, if you let them.

But now that I see all this, I never let them!

And we should not carry their Totalitarian Talking Points for them.

Just my opinion, Spoonman.
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thom1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well, if you are from Texas,
Then you are a 0 super liberal. If you are from the coasts, then you are practically republican.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm serious about this quest,
So how does Houston rate
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Fixated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. ...
I agree with a lot of that, sans the guns thing (I guess I agree with it, but I have to add "guns just make it hella easy to kill people").

Anyway, you're a standard moderate liberal.
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thom1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-03 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Maybe I exaggerated a little to make a point...
But these labels are entirely subjective. Liberals in the US are much further to the right than European liberals. There are aspects of your ideology that are very liberal, while other aspects are more in line with a conservative ideology. Over all, I would classify you as a moderate.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. Rather far right, though whether by nature or ignorance I can't tell
(And I didn't say 'ignorance' as a pejorative, but only because that's the only word for the state of not knowing something.)

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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Rather Far Right?
Based on what?
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-03 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. 8, 9, 11, 13
Particularly 11 -- a flat tax is incredibly regressive.

Too few people even yet appreciate just how destructive concentration of wealth is. Mr Justice Brandeis nailed it: we can have democracy, or we can have highly concentrated wealth, but we cannot have both.

So, to me, your being in favor of a flat tax such as a sales tax outweighs your leftie positions by a factor of Much, putting you, on the scale I use, well over to the right.

(If that still doesn't seem fair or sensible to you, consider what happens to you if you have no wealth because it's all concentrated somewhere else. If you are sufficiently deprived of wealth, you are deprived of the means to sustain life AND ALSO deprived of the very right to vote to change the law that deprives you--you can't vote unless you have an address, and without enough wealth, you have no address. The distribution of wealth is the key to more than we usually realise.)


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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. Sounds pretty moderate
but to a hard right conservative, your support for Roe V. Wade alone makes you a Radical Liberal.

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Fixated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. ...
What's with you people calling him far right? There's no way that you can claim that he is anything farther right than a moderate.
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MaverickX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. you sound rather libertarian..
But conservatives think anyone who isn't conservative is a liberal.
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I agree, libertarian, right/left is a false dichotomy 2party system sucks
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. You're a seven
towads the liberal end.

"11. The IRS is outdated and a Federal sales tax is the solution"

This, however, is not liberal or conservative -- just smart
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Hi Spoonman!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. 'Smart'? I hope you're being ironic
Because it's either that or you're in trouble

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Me? In trouble?
No, I wasn't being ironic. I see all sorts of benfits to a federal sales tax (one that exempts certain "necessities"); from encouraging savings over consumption, to reducing the power of the IRS.

I'm truly open to discussion about why this would not be an improvement though. Care to enlighten me?
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-03 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. Point for Point
You sound like a right-leaning centrist to me. If your buddy calls you a liberal, he doesn't know many liberals.


1. I vote Democrat

Well, at least you're not a Republican. There are no liberal Republicans, just an occasional fish out of water here and there. Chafee in Rhode Island got the war vote correctly. Hillary and Kerry got it wrong.


2. Your pets (my Blue Healer “CJ”) should be treated like humans, but bacon tastes gooood!

Calling companion animals "pets" isn't all that progressive. This issue is at least 10 years old.


3. I support Roe V. Wade

You'd have to be a Neanderthal to oppose it.


4. I believe in a total complete separation of church and state

Most Americans also believe this. It's fairly settled.


5. I could care less if you Gay or Lesbian, it’s your choice, several of my best friends are.

Along with the majority of Americans, including our conservative-leaning Supreme Court.


6. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people

Being pro-gun makes you somewhat conservative.


7. Deep down I feel Global warming is occurring, but we don’t have enough scientific data to prove it or the reasons for it.

Questioning the scientific data at this point makes you conservative.


8. I believe Saddam was a sub-human dictator and a threat to the Middle East

So we've been told. He certainly was a dictator, but the term "sub-human" sounds ideological to me. There was substantial controversay about how much of a threat to the Middle East he was.


9. “The Mainstream Media” is slanted both ways, it depends on what channel and who your watching

I've yet to see anybody in the mainstream who's genuinely left-leaning. Do you mean Dan Rather? Barbara Walters? Peter Jennings?


10. Lawyers, insurance companies and stock brokers control this country more than we realize

Hard to prove. I suspect that lawyers, insurance companies and stock brokers control this country a lot less than we realize.


11. The IRS is outdated and a Federal sales tax is the solution

If you oppose progressive taxation you're not a liberal.


12. ALL politicians lie

Both sides of the political spectrum believe this.


13. Socialized medicine only for low income families

Opposing "socialized medicine" is how conservatives resist changes in health care delivery that might make it more accessible to ordinary people. The number of working families with no health coverage at all is already large, and growing.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I think therefore I'm conservative?
2. Calling companion animals "pets" isn't all that progressive. This issue is at least 10 years old.

Your right, I call my dog a "pet" not a "companion animal". This was more of a reference to animal rights. While I respect the vegetarian lifestyle, it's not for me.


6. Being pro-gun makes you somewhat conservative.

I would have to highly disagree with you on this one as well - there are hundreds on this forum that believe gun ownership is a constitutional right. It's a tool, you can use it the right way or the wrong way, but it's use is dictated by the person holding it. People have to change, not the tools they use.

7. Questioning the scientific data at this point makes you conservative.

So we are conservative if we question something?
Hey everyone we've been "questioning" the data that Bush used in his State of the Union Speech.

"At this point" - we have gained very little historical data in the past 20 years, when we need hundreds of years to make an accurate calculation of cooling and warming trends.
If you go to Glacier Park in Alaska you will see a sign indicating where the glacier was when the industrial revolution began, and you will see that the glacier has retreated several hundred feet from that point. My question is why did it retreat 300 miles before the industrial revolution.

The worst mistake Democrats and liberal minded people can make is supporting an issue with inaccurate information.
Joining the cause because it is popular is not being proactive or dedicated. It’s more like being led like sheep. The biggest corporate con job ever committed in this country was disguised as an environmental issue, and most people have no clue what it was. One hint, it was DuPont.

Questioning the data does not make me a conservative, it makes me smarter, and in my opinion those two don't mix.

Opposing "socialized medicine" is how conservatives resist changes in health care delivery that might make it more accessible to ordinary people. The number of working families with no health coverage at all is already large, and growing.

Once again, the worst mistake Democrats and liberal minded people can make is supporting an issue with inaccurate information.
Socialized medicine creates a reduction in development of new technology. The UK health system is significantly inferior to ours, and Canada does not have a true "socialized medicine" system. Many people do not realize that in order to have medical coverage in Canada, you must be employed (This is what I saw while working in Alberta).

The fact of the matter is that the cost of health care has risen to extreme levels due to malpractice suits, and health insurance companies wanting higher profits. Insurance companies and malpractice suits need to be regulated heavily to curtail this. This lends credibility to 2/3s of #10.
You would understand it better if you think about what the conservatives stand to lose if a socialized medicine system was created. It's a financial issue for them, as many of them are heavily invested in areas that would be affected.

I didn't touch the tax one, cause it is to long an explaination for this post.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. upon examination
Edited on Mon Jul-28-03 10:48 AM by steviet_2003
6. Being pro-gun makes you somewhat conservative.

note the qualifier "somewhat." many liberals are very pacifist and anti gun totally. if you think that there should be more gun restrictions and registrations i would put this as moderate/middle.

7. Questioning the scientific data at this point makes you conservative.

i agree with you. the nature of science is to question and given your academic background you are aware of this. i am not sure of the science about global warming either but my additude is can we take that chance?? we don't have a backup planet.

on socialized medicine there are good points on both sides that have been made here. i think that since you admit the current system does not work well i am not sure that there is a pat "liberal" vs "conservative" solution to this huge problem.

ahhhhh, but taxes is the killer. a national sales tax is extremely conservative and that is where things are headed in this admin. they are pulling out cash from the states by their tax cuts for the rich and the states in turn need to hike sales and other local taxes. a national sales tax would NOT be a flat tax but even worse, much worse!! let's say bob makes $10 a week and joe makes $1000 a week.
they each buy a loaf of bread a week for $1. the national and local sales tax adds $.25. for that one purchase bob is paying 2.5% of his income in tax and joe is paying $.0025%. a VERY inequitable system for the have nots.

on edit: i would give you a 5.5, just a lil left on center. also on edit, from another relative newbie, welcome spoonman!! :toast:
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. You are very defensive
Edited on Mon Jul-28-03 11:07 AM by Bandit
I would put you closer to the Zell Miller Democrats than anyone in the Black caucus or even near the Liberal end of our representation. Every major Scientific Community even the US Government has said without a doubt that Global warming is occuring. The argument isn't if it's occuring but what is causing it. Your lack of insight in the taxation situation is appalling. You want regressive taxes and that is very right-wing. You think only poor people should get adequate health care. Very divisive way to look at the well being of America. And just for your general knowlege there is no Glacier Park in Alaska. Glacier Park is in Montana. There is a Glacier Bay National Monument in Alaska, if that is what you are referring to and I know of no sign that indicates advancement or shrinkage of any of the dozens of glaciers within the monument. Some are advancing and some are retreating. It sounds to me like you don't have your facts down very well so don't really know what you are talking about. I hope you invest the time to truely study the effects of what you seem to be advocating. Guns don't kill people bullets do.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Education is what the right fear most
I'm not trying to come across as defensive
Every major Scientific Community even the US Government has said without a doubt that Global warming is occurring. The argument isn't if it's occurring but what is causing it.
You just supported my statement - Some are advancing and some are retreating.
If global warming were occurring it would be “global”. Not just isolated places or areas.
I'm not sure how old you are, but when I was a little boy, every major scientific community believed we were headed for another ice age.
That was only 30 years ago.
The truth is we don’t have enough data to support any theory.
There is a reason why they (Scientific Community and US Government) support this idea without significant data to back it up - money. Somewhere there’s a dollar to be gained from touting this theory. Federal grants for research and investments in tech companies.
DuPont got another 25 year patent on the only legal refrigerant by supporting the global warming theory, and the research for it was paid for with federal tax dollars.

I’m almost certain I was at Glacier Bay National Park & Preserve located in Gustavus, AK.

I have invested a great deal of time to acquire knowledge on environmental issues, six years earning a BS Environmental Management and an MS Environmental Engineering, I guess I wasted my time.

I never even attempted to explain the taxation issue - a sales tax is the only way to equalize the percentage paid by everyone. Face it rich people spend much more money than poor people.
In addition, we keep the IRS taxing corporations income, which is what it was established for in the first place.
No I do not believe in taxing someone more, because they make more money. I believe we should take away their loopholes.
There’s another page of reasons, but too much for here.

I also never said only the poor should receive health care. How would you like to know that your tax dollars help pay for a procedure for Bill Gates?
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Maybe you did waste your time afterall
http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/index.html

The fact that these two glaciers are behaving so differently, and at such rapid speeds in recent years, brings scientists from around the state and the world to Juneau every summer. Their studies can help predict how the landscape of Southeast Alaska will change in the coming years, and they can help document how the region's climate has changed over millennia. Some scientists believe the glaciers can indicate what's happening to the global climate today.

The glaciers flowing out of the Juneau Icefield are "the most delicate indicator of climate change that we have anywhere on the planet," said Maynard Miller, a scientist with the University of Idaho. He founded the Juneau Icefield Research Project in 1946, and has sent students and scientists to the ice every summer since to study the size and movement of its glaciers.
The Juneau Icefield is ideal because it is situated right where the low-pressure weather patterns over the Gulf of Alaska meet the high-pressure systems over the continent, Miller said. The arctic front, the name given for the area where these two systems meet, is where the most snow falls over the icefield.
In recent years, the arctic front has moved further east over the continent - a trend that, Miller said, is indicative of a global warming trend.
"One, we're observing the intensity of the changes due to global warming and, two, the rapidity of those changes," said Miller.
<snip>
About 90 percent of the glaciers in Alaska are retreating, Motyka said. Only one glacier on the Juneau Icefield bucks this trend: the Taku.
"The Taku is the maverick," said Motyka.
The surging Taku
About 100 years ago, when the Taku was about four miles further up the valley from its present location, it was a tidewater glacier, meaning the ocean and the glacier's face were in direct contact. Icebergs frequently broke off the glacier, a process called calving, and were carried by currents and tides down Taku Inlet and up into Gastineau Channel.
As a tidewater glacier, the Taku moved much more quickly than glaciers that aren't in direct contact with water. But glacier dynamics eventually slowed that movement.
"As (glaciers) advance, they build themselves a moraine, a pile of debris at the terminus," Motyka said. "A tidewater glacier does this submarine. It keeps pushing the debris up, and pretty soon it's got a wall there that protects it from the ocean water, so it stabilizes."
Motyka and his colleagues recorded this stabilization in the 1980s. But while there was little movement of the terminus of the glacier, the thickness of the ice at the terminus was increasing. In the summer of 2001, Motyka returned to the glacier and found it moving.
"We knew that the glacier had to start advancing again sometime because it was getting so thick," Motyka said.
One of Motyka's theories for the Taku's advance is that the high amount of precipitation received at the head of the glacier, on the Juneau Icefield, is overriding the melting at the terminus of the glacier caused by the higher temperatures.
Using the movement of the Taku Glacier to prove or refute any global warming theory is too simplistic, though, Motyka said.
http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/index.html
According to the National Climatic Data Center, a division of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, global surface temperatures have increased by about 0.6 degrees Celsius, or about 1 degree Fahrenheit, since the late 19th century.
This claim is little disputed among scientists. Scientists also do not dispute the fact that the concentration of carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, has increased in Earth's atmosphere in the last century.
What is disputed, among scientists, politicians, industry officials and environmental activists, is the cause and implications of the change.

Many scientists, including those at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, believe that the increased amount of carbon dioxide and other so-called "greenhouse gases" in the Earth's atmosphere are causing the rise in temperatures.
They believe these gases are produced by the burning of fossil fuels for energy

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HiroP Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
25. Maybe this URL can help you
find out where exactly you are on the political map:
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html
The test takes a few minutes but the result is more exact than just left/right.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Thank You
Thank you very much,
It seems that I am in good company
Gandhi
The Dalai Lama
Nelson Mandela

Thanks again, very cool link.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. yeah, thanks
i reiterate spoonmans comment, very cool site. i too am in there with the same good company, even a little left and below. this site should maybe have it's own thread, don't ya think??
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