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Edited on Sat Jul-26-03 04:20 AM by Wonder
<<But, at this point, isn't your defense of the accuser based entirely on hearsay also?
I am not arguing about either of these particular parties. I have read one article in it's entirety on the subject since it hit the media. The one I posted here. I have yet to argue the specifics of any of the hearsay. I just happened to come across, here within these kobe threads, all the hearsay. Hearsay and various dark secrets which ultimately may be considered irrelevant to the case itself.
Quite frankly, most of the hearsay one comes across in this particular case in the media, has been aimed at the alleged victim only. Very little in the way of character defilements and hearsay the likes of which has been aimed at the alleged victim, has been aimed at Kobe, but for the charge itself. Not to my knowledge.
To really make this fair, I'd rather not know he was charged at all, than to out the alleged victim before or after a trial. The only reason it is so public is because he is a public figure, which should not change any of the policies in regards to identifying the allged victim, because those policies to not divulge the alleged victims identity are there for a very good reason.
From what I can see the alleged victim is being tried in the media, not Kobe Bryant. Based on the various spins in the media, which are most definitely smears with arguable relevance, actually conclusions are being draw, and put forth here on forum.
Is that because Kobe Bryant is a perfect man who is beyond a doubt innocent or guilty. He could be either. Do the smears we have read really beyond a doubt make the alleged victim guilty of false accusation? She could be, but maybe not. Have we followed kobe or the alleged victim around, that any one of us could know anything conclusive beyond a reasonable doubt in regard to his character, aside from his accomplishes? And even if we had does this mean we can advocate the guilt or innocence of either of them any better? Sometimes those we are most intimate with we know the least about.
I argue that neither should be tried in the media. I have been off topic since I got here, mostly speaking in defense of all rape victims during & after the rape, and her tribulations with society and the judicial system itself. I speak in an attempt to shed some light onto this topic we call Rape. I point out the prejudices against victims of rape of the many that go unpublicized.
Many of the smears we are reading about the alleged victim are not exclusive to this case. And many of the women posting here in these thread ARE ALSO OFF TOPIC speaking on behalf of all victims. Why? Because often you are speaking to rape survivors. And these women here that are rape survivors are not ALL speaking directly to this Kobe case either. They are trying to tell you something.
What do you think they are trying to tell you? That Kobe is Guilty? That all men should be hated? Is this all you and others have taken away with you reading through these threads?
What is there for me to speculate about really? Kobe Bryant has what is called in the industry "likeablity", and the only thing I know about him since this fiasco hit the media, via the media, is that he is a married basketball player who has been charged with felony sexual assault. He admits to having committed adultory and says he is innocent of rape. The sex was consentual. Along with his game, his talent, and his commericals, that is what most of us know about him, although to some it may feel they, not only know him intimately, but they can speak for him on his behalf, based on some hero he represents in this crazy society of ours, and in their mind.
So far I know he has lied once. Do you know how many times both Kobe and his accuser will be questioned in depostions that go on record before the trial. One session cross referenced against the other. Wherein if stories are fabricated if neither remembers the their own testamony lies can be revealed. Beyond the physical evidence and the so called character evidence, that is what this trial boils down to truths or lies, in an attempt to prove innocence or guilt.
If I remember correctly, there is a pretrial hearing without a jury which renders full testamony of the accuser. I do not recall if in pre trial the alleged rapist was questioned. As a witness for the state, I had to leave the courtroom, something about his rights. At trial too. As a witness I had to sit outside the courtroom while he testified. None of us know what happened in that hotel room, though some of the rape survivors can certainly speculate, as their own horror comes back to mind.
On the other hand what do we really know about this alleged victim? With all the media she has received, doesn't it seem we know her whole life story the way it is being reported, as well as the way her character is being maligned here? And so fast we have come to know her too. A complete nobody, we know everything about her (at least the way some are arguing here, so it seems).
Even in this article I posted, before we get to the very end of the article wherein you finally get at least some facts regarding the legal procedures and some of the very few considerations of the prosecutors and the DA; this article even reiterates all the dirt we have on this girl just in case we might happened to have forgotten it the first, second, third, fourth and fifth time the media has made us oh so aware of her oh so maligned and dark secret past, along with what they tell us are friends of hers are saying.
Boy oh boy oh boy, don't you feel you know her? We know her intimately now. So intimately we can speak of her guilt, based on some jungian construct too. Little suicidal Cleopatra, Medusa, Dehilia, Mary Magdaleine, (who else?), oh so depressed but manipulative and vindictive like all women are.
The article I posted here is the only article I have read in its entirety. I would be the last person to speculate on innocent or guilt of either of them. I hate this subject. I have had to deal with it on and off for the last decade plus. I want to forget about it entirely. Never be reminded or be insulted by it again. And even so, I have yet to throw down any speculation in defense of this particular alleged rape victicm, not even in my real life. It has eaten away over the years at too much of my life. Taken up too much of my time. And look at me investing more time compelled to speak out like this as fairly as I am able, even in the face of my unfortunate, but intimate knowledge of the subject. I even defended Kobe once on the same premise that I defend the alleged victim.
It was brought forth in discussion that someone had thought at one point they thought they had read in the news a while back an incident of domestic violence in regard to Kobe. I pointed out that if that were true it did not necessarily mean he had raped this girl, and might not be relevant to this case. I even let it standalone, without also pointing out that on the other hand it might go to a pattern that might be relevant in regard to this case based on the various rapist profiles.
There are a number of categories rapists fall into you know. Not just the serial psychopathic ones. Just as the alleged victims suicide attempt may or may not bear relevance. These are the issues considered by prosecution, defense, Judge. What is relevant, what can be argued, and as stated in the above article, what might be bar completely, and never even brought up at trial. Those considerations that some here are arguing like they are scripture Kobe's defense team themselves may not be allowed to raise.
<<Or do you work in the Eagle County District Attorney's office?>>
No I do not work in the DA's office! And neither do many of these women participating in this particular discussion, most assuredly, and judging by the content neither have those arguing so vindictively in conclusive defense of Kobe. Few of the woman here are arguing that the alleged victim is an actual victim, but we are better equipped to counter many of the onesided speculations of those that seem CONVINCED Kobe is innocent (regardless of how carefully these posters chose their language) because we have intimate knowledge of the system and its proceedures as it applies to this crime.
Why do you think I chose just those passages from this article to bold? I have stated those same bolded facts more than once in these threads. Why do you think that is? Because I am defending the innocence of the alleged victim? Because I am a liar? No! Because I know. I have been a victim.
There are victims of this crime here that you are talking to and they are not defending the alleged victim here, they are countering the bogus and bullshit arguments presented here by some of these guys that are outwardly justifying the crime itself TELLING rape survivors posting here that ALL WOMEN ARE LYING VIXENS who FALSELY ACCUSE ALL THE TIME based on no real frame of reference. Have you been following along?
The basis of some of these rah rah pro-kobe arguments MUST BE COUNTERED not in defense of this particular alleged victim, but in opposition to the MYTHS which form the bases of some of their arguments aimed at further defiling the alleged victim, which in turn they apply to ALL WOMEN. Why? Because some of them haven't a clue what they are talking about. They have no real knowledge of the legal system as it applies to victims of rape, let alone about the psychology of the alleged victim's suicide. If it weren't so hatefully vindictive and ignorant, it would be downright laughable. You follow their line of thinking there is no such thing as rape, but for the delusion of all of us hard to get lying ho bitches who are just out to get ALL MEN because we have nothing better to do with our time. All of us. That makes every single rape survivor here a liar.
We are not defending the alleged victim, but as Kobe has rights to have his character protected by the media, so does she. Of course it is pretty much too late now. The media that also operates by some of these same MYTHOLOGIES have pretty much wiped the floor with her, with some radio personality giving out her identity, which jeopardizes her safety. To which some actually argue that fair is fair? My all time favorite: this is considered to be equal treatment? If her identity was withheld it would be considered special treatment?
You say perhaps, yes, but Kobe could be innocent also. And I say of course that could be too. This highly manipulative, suicidal, depressed vixen lures a married man into his hotel room. She has the most orgasmic night of sex with the well endowed and heroic role model Kobe Bryant, with mind to convince the DA to slap him with felony rape charges because:
she is just insane or
she hates men or
she's a racist and the KKK paid her to do it or
she figured if it all goes as planned and she can get him convicted she can than sue him for everything he is worth or
she figured if it all goes as planned and she can get him convicted people will feel sorry for her even the casting direct of American Idol might call her back and she will win because all will feel sorry for her misfortune, which will send her well on her way to fame and fortune, which she thought accusing Kobe of rape might be just the thing to achieve her life time aspirations, or
she thought herself the god of women and believed she could steal him away from his wife because she loves him dearly and was just a touch pissed when after the sex he made it clear to her he was not going to leave his wife, and this was a one night stand of all things, and not only that; she realizes that cliche wasn't just a cliche because now that she's gone black she can never go back, and now she has the most acute case of jungle fever, which upon realizing that she became livid or
she really is certifiable and she misunderstood everything because of incompetence or confusions and this in her mind is her cry for help, or
she has a habit of crying rape because of some deep ingrained guilt she has about sex, or
she is a masochist nymphomanic who is actually playing out a rape fantasy, or
she just felt so guilty after having had sex it makes her feel better to cry rape so her guilt will subside, or
maybe you have other scenarios we all might like to entertain, if I have left any out. I am happy to entertain them all, as long as I am actually talking to someone that understands the big picture here and is not pulling speculations out of thin air, or just feels the need to vomit upon every women he runs across because boo hoo hoo all women are manipulative and wicked liars.
We are not arguing in defense of this particular alleged rape victim at all. We are being presented with speculations pulled out of the hat most times, above are some of the variations on the overall theme, HATEFUL ANTI-WOMEN RAPE MYTHOLOGY, which must be countered, because these myths must be debunked, as to some degree they feed the rape mentality so much so that some arguing here might feel righteously justified to rape, or haven't a clue when they maybe crossing over the line, because their definition of sex is GIVING IT TO HER OR BAGGING HER. Am I making myself clear or must I show slides?
So what do we do in rebuttal, those of us with experience in the system? We counter with the various possibilities why there is also a chance alleged rape victims, whose cases DA's decide to prosecute, could be telling the truth. Why do we do this those of us that are rape survivors and have been through the system?
Not because we hate men and love bashing all of them. Not because we are hysterical, but because, contrary to the premise of those arguing here on behalf of Kobe; we have had first hand knowledge of the system, how difficult the process is, it's pitfalls and the various prejudices that blind even the most hand picked jury, because we have survived rape and the system, though some might still suffer from delayed trauma which sucks too. Some of us have not gotten convictions. Some of us have.
Some of have been dragged through two trials because DA told us if we refused to submit to a second trial we would be supeonaed to appear that is how convinced they were that the man that first jury had acquitted would be brought to justice on the second. And you know why? Not because I told them, but because they were convinced he would walk right out and do it again, and the next time he raped because of the first trial they knew he would killer her so there was no witness to the crime, and if he could find me he might kill me too.
So if we are going to discuss this subject, let's get real!!
I asked you: "Or is Rape something you can not identify with as an important cause unto itself which requires an even more diligent kind of objectivity?"
You responded: I happen to think that all criminal investigations deserve equal objectivity. The main problem with rape is the lack of unambiguous physical evidence in many cases. When it comes to one person's word against another's, all possibilities need to be examined and ruled out.>>
I have a few more points:
1. Though you answered in a very generic way, you didn't really answer my question. Maybe I should rephrase it: Do you understand rape? Is rape something you can identify with as an important subject to speak out against? Do you have an opinion in regards violence against women? Have you any understanding of the crime itself as good, bad, true, false? What kind of objectivity does it require and why?
You see the main problem with rape is the rapist, and the second problem with rape is the society itself. And it seems if I judge from these Kobe threads:
society at large (both men and women who have never been raped) has no understanding of the detriment of the crime itself, is clueless about what makes a man rape (yes even the richest most successful, most seemingly likable of them).
Can not distinquish the myth from the facts. Nor, how the society itself and certain ingrained ATTITUDES actually enable rape.
Have never considered what goes into making up the rape mentality? For instance what makes a young man buy rehipnol and slip it into his dates drink? What premise is he being guided by?
And most sadly they have not an iota of understanding of the rape victim or the rape survivor and the journey she takes moving from one to the other. If they did they would not so easily insult, smear, and malign her.
But you say women have to be responsible as well. I believe some of that is just passing the buck or the responsibility back on the woman. However, because of the prevalence of the male anger and at such a young age, I not only agree, but have advised caution to women myself. Of course most a cavalier figuring that is something that only happens to other women not them, god forbid they would stand in support of rape survivors, or heed their warnings. Like I already said two of my past friends are now very sorry they just weren't listening. Really thought there was something I did to cause the rape. Figured themselves a better judge of character.
It is complex, and decreasing rape incident requires not so rapidly turning the tables back on the women, but also admitting that males have some responsibility here as well, particularly in helping to educate young boys as it is they who are conducting themselves most violently.
Finally you said and I am pasting it again: When it comes to one person's word against another's, all possibilities need to be examined and ruled out.
Absolutely all possibilities need to be examined and ruled out, by the prosecution team, the defense team and the Judge, not you or I or the media, the latter three are not the experts, but for those rape survivors here that have been through the system. They might know just a little bit more about it than the laymen I have encountered here.
Now at this point I would be remiss if I did not add, in lieu of the actual facts we would need to consider and rule out all of the possibilities in this particular case; why not talk about rape?
I sense very strongly in these threads some of the guys could educate me on why they would like to rape and without realizing it already have. While I have encountered other guys here I sense could educated those that feel they have reason to rape about why they shouldn't.
The rape survivors can help educate the guys regarding the various statistics, and how harmful rape is not just to the women, but to the man who happens to find himself in love with a rape survivor well after the fact I mean (or does love actually not happen anymore in the new millenlium), because you know what saddens me the most?
Well look at the level of dysfunction in our society. It creates dis-ease and sickens us all. If we all weren't so screwy one way or another, for how harmful that male energy can be to the female (and with some of the rape testamonials I have read in these threads harmful is gross understatement) a good male energy is 100 times more healing to the female (speaking heterosexually here), and vica versa. We do seem to have our priorities all wrong and then theres all of that justifiable anger. On the brink of nuclear calamity (figuratively and literally).
Of course these last three paragraphs are pure fantasy on my part. I really do not expect that can happen here. At the very least, even if not one person reads through this entire post (which I do not expect anyone will), I just got a load off of my mind.
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