Reverend Al Lives in Swanky Hotels While Dean Stays at Cheap Hotels

[slinkerwink]

REV. AL LIVING LARGE
Sat Nov 29, 4:58 AM ET Add Local - New York Post to My Yahoo!
By STEFAN C. FRIEDMAN

The Rev. Al Sharpton's long-shot presidential campaign is sparing no expense when it comes to travel and dining - even though it's nearly broke. Despite having just over $24,000 on hand and owing more than $177,000, Sharpton is touring the country in style, according to the most recently available campaign financial data.

In the month of June alone, Sharpton spent more than $15,000 on swank hotels from Columbia, S.C., to Scottsdale, Ariz. A single July jaunt to the luxury Four Seasons in Los Angeles cost $7,343.27 - more than 5 percent of the total $121,314.60 campaign cash Sharpton raised in the third quarter.

<snip>

The campaign's spending habits on travel are particularly striking when compared to the front-running Democratic primary candidate, Gov. Howard Dean who had $12 million on hand as of Oct. 15 and is not accepting public financing - often stays with his mother when in New York and always puts his staff up at non-luxury hotels, according to a campaign source. Hotels listed in Dean's financial statements include Howard Johnson's, the Comfort Inn and the anything-but-glamorous Franklin Hotel on the Upper East Side.

link can be found here at: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nypost/20031129/lo_nypost/revallivinglarge

This is exactly a part of the reason why I'm supporting Dean---he doesn't waste any of his campaign money on frivolities.

[AP]

1. Dean stays in cheap motels and wears the same suits not because he has

to. It's a very clever move designed to make people think he's not as privileged as he really is.

I applaud it. It's very clever and it might work. However, it's not the truth of his life. It's a campaign move.

[slinkerwink]

3. if Dean's so privileged, then why does he.....

have an average family home instead of a mansion? Why does he mow his own lawn instead of hiring people to do it for him? Oh, why did he drop the glamorous life of being a stockbroker when he went into medicine? Why? Why? Why?


Oh, because he doesn't want the trappings of money. He prefers to live simply and recycles his own newspapers.

[Bombtrack]

14. Most people couldn't up and decide to go to medical school

Most people, particularly if they had just gotten an ivy-league tuition education, would still be paying student loans up the ass for a decade, before they could think of doing a 180 in there career path.

To be fair, I personally havn't seen edivence of Dean being gluttonous at all, but he's presented clear evidence that he wouldn't be able to relate to the working class as well as alot of candidates do. It's something he doesn't do deliberatly perhaps, so I'll end it there.

[slinkerwink]

17. he's able to relate to the middle class and working class.....

or else he wouldn't have the backing of the SEIU and AFSCME.

[Bombtrack]

50. yeah in a primary

the fact that the anti-war movement, which is what is driving Dean's campaign, has penetrated so much into the democratic primary community, has no positive baring whatsoever in the general election voting population.

independants in SEIU and AFSCME votes are a small inefectual minority, while sharply partisan democrats are a large majority

[sistersofmercy]

19. Look..

And I'm not going to get into a huge debate over this but just because someone has money it doesn't mean they foolishly waste it. I know people who drive 10 year old or older cars who have plenty of money to get a new one. Not everyone wants a mansion the upkeep is unbelievable in those things. Furthermore I know one person worth major bucks who still rents. Contrary to belief, many rich folks don't buy designer clothes, perhaps some, but not obsessively. One friend I have will where jeans, a t-shirt from Target and where Prada shoes. In short, most truly wealthy people don't go around flaunting it, particularly those from states such as Maine, Vermont etc and the midwest areas as well.

[wtmusic]

32. That lawnmowing thing, it's all a campaign move...

recycling, saving those aluminum cans. Yeah the guy's real crafty!!

[sistersofmercy]

44. That's BS!

What just because someone has money they don't recycle? Mow their own lawn? Well that's just a silly notion. The mowing the lawn part, well, some people just have a hard time spending 50 bucks or more for something they know takes an hour or less, of course it depends on th lawn.

[mzmolly]

49. Heh heh, especially saving suits for 20 years just incase he ran for

President one day :P

[AP]

83. What really matters is this:

(1) perception, and, dean is doing all that stuff you mentioned to counter the very real perception of him that he is privileged. He's actually doing this part well, and I commend him.

(2) whether he will actually run amercia on behalf of the ruling class he came from. Now, I think he will. He did in VT. His wall St cronies helped him make policy, and his policy helped Wall St. Just look at his education plan. Those lones he wants--those loans guaranteed with taxpayer money help wall st the most.

So, he mows his own lawn to create a perception that is different from the reality that he's from a very privileged bankground that gave him PLETNY of opportunities others didn't and don't have.

But the fact is, he seems to think that what works for Wall St works for America and his actual class and economic policies reflect that attitude. In fact this is the one area which Dean the presidential candidate isn't very far from Dean the conservative governor. Whereas he'll say the exact opposition of what he did as governor on issues like race and social security. He's not so afraid of hiding the fact that he plans on balancing the budget on the backs of the middle class and that his education plan is good for Wall St.

[caledesi]

91. Good one SW! nt

[ChemEng]

124. I think Dean mowing his yard is a stunt...

Think about it. Here is a highly educated doctor, one who spent 6-7 years of post graduate work, and his time is best utilized by mowing his yard versus treating patients? What's next? Will he do his own brakes? Paint his own house? Grow his own crops? The whole point of our economic system is for everyone to do what they are best at. That doesn't have anything to do with the trappings of money.

[AP]

173. If he has better things to do with his time and, instead, he's mowing ...

...his lawn, I have some questions about his math skills, his impulsiveness and his ability to prioritize. Is he like ADD or dyselxic or something?

Or is this a big stunt?

If it isn't, then he's penny wise and pound foolish.

[bloom]

228. That strikes me as very absurd.

My father is a doctor who did his own yardwork and stuff.

My husband is a lawyer who does his own yardwork, plumbing, house painting, makes apple butter out of the apples in our orchard, and would do his own brakes if he knew how. He also creates his own music and likes to teach others to read.

Good grief. I suppose some professionals like to work 80 hours a week and have everything done for them by others. That doesn't mean they all do.

[Closer]

5. Your ignorance

about Dean the man is palpable.

It'd only require a little research to see and know how Dean lives now, and has always lived. I assure you, it's not that of a man with lots of money.


Speaking of LOTS OF MONEY, how's John Millionaire Edwards doing in the polls?

[slinkerwink]

6. do you remember that Time Magazine profile of Dean

where there was a picture of him doing his own dishes?

[Closer]

10. Yes I do

Because I remember being surprised at how messy and "middle class" his kitchen was. LOL

[slinkerwink]

13. haha, yeah, hey----can you show me that photo again?

;-)

[Pastiche423]

36. I am waiting for a friend to get home

so that I can scan the pic of Dean's way messy kitchen.

lol. I don't feel so bad about the way my kitchen looks now.

[slinkerwink]

38. awww, great!

;-)

[janx]

53. It wasn't dirty. It was just well used! Our kitchen looks like that

a lot--right now, as a matter of fact.

But it wasn't dirty. There were no dirty dishes or anything. There's just a LOT of stuff in that kitchen!

[janx]

54. Please scan and post! I tried to find that pic online,

but Time wants $$.

[janx]

35. Actually, SW, I have that article right here. He's making tea.

(At least I think it's the same one.) But the photo is great, because it's a very typical and well used kitchen; you can see bags of stuff on the counters, knives and pens lying around, some bananas, a recycling bin, Gatoraide, cutting board, an igloo cooler stashed on top of the cabinets (along with some boxes), towels, aprons, spice rack--why, everything a kitchen should have. There's stuff everywhere! That pic is great. My husband and I enjoyed looking at it.

Most politicians would NEVER allow anyone in their kitchens unless the whole thing was staged. Dean is totally unpretentious.

I'm going to see if I can find it online.

P.S. Time wants money from me to view the article. Drat.

[slinkerwink]

43. awwww....

*pouts*

[janx]

55. Maybe pastiche will scan and post. I hope so.

It would be great.

[Pastiche423]

98. Dean's kitchen!

[NashVegas]

108. HeeHee

Looking at that pic, I feel so tidy in comparison.

[AP]

84. AOL Time Warner is a part of the huge media bullshit image creation pro-

Dean thing.

Of course they're going to show pictures of him doing things average people do.

But when he's running against Bush, you'll see pictures of the estate he grew up on in L.I., and you'll hear more about St George's and you'll see the stupid of him pretending he's greek or roman or whatever form his prep school yearbook.

[_Jumper_]

11. How rich were Edwards' parents?

?

[Bombtrack]

67. working class high school educated

they weren't able to buy there own home until John was in junior high I beleive

[AP]

87. His father had to take a $50 loan to get his wife and John out of the...

...hospital when he was born.

Edwards couldn't check into his hotel on his honeymoon until Elizabeth Edwards's parents showed up and loaned them $2 to pay for the $22 room (and that was after they scrounged the car for change.

That's way closer to my life than Dean's is, and I think the way they acted and governed reflects their different life experiences.

[JohnKleeb]

16. You mean John "selfmade" Edwards

I hear hes doing all right. Edwards has a humble background like him or not.

[_Jumper_]

18. Amen

n/t

[JohnKleeb]

23. I do like Edwards for the record

I dont mind if a candiate is rich or not honestly, I like a selfmade guy personally but I dont hate rich candiates, like my heroes are FDR and RFK and of course JFK but I do admire a person like Edwards or my own candiate Kucinich who werent so fortunate growing up but worked hard during school and became sucessful. Not to say the rich guys didnt work hard but they had more of a chance to suceed than say a poorer person, thems the facts, I dont hate Dean for his rich background, I dont bow down and kiss the ground for a self made guy, I do admire the self made guy more I guess, but do I hate the rich guy, nah.

[_Jumper_]

31. I agree

n/t

[JohnKleeb]

39. dont hate em for being wealthy, dont love em for not being

Simple as that.

[spooky3]

79. I agree, JohnK. What matters is what they advocate, their intelligence,

their integrity, etc. How much money they have is completely irrelevant to me.

But that's not really the point of the initial Post article, I guess. Their point seems to be that Sharpton is not spending his limited funds as wisely as Dean is, and it raises questions about why not.

[IndianaGreen]

45. Nixon had a humble and pacifist background

Look at how he rebelled!

[JohnKleeb]

48. exactly it was just my point that Edwards had a humble background

I know that. I am not stupid IG. I dont hate rich candiates, my biggest hero is Roosevelt. I wanted to make it clear whether you like Edwards or not he grew up poor, and yes I know about Nixon, heh ironic that he was a quaker.

[IndianaGreen]

71. It wasn't my intention to offend you.

I just get a kick of all of these wealthy assholes talking about their humble beginnings. How about the rest of us that were born humble, only to be made more humble by Reaganomics?

[AP]

88. Nixon actually advocated a higher minimum wage and some very good

workplace protections, and many people say it had to do with the fact that his father worked in a factory building street cars and because his family moved to California for a better life.

Nixon was a sick fuck, but he had some policies which pissed off pro-business Republicans.

That's why I think Bush I was deep throat. Nixon was actually a threat to bigger profits for big business.

[spooky3]

224. He signed the Equal Emp. Opp. Act which gave more power

(admittedly not enough, but more than previously) to the EEOC to fight discrimination. Can you imagine a Repug. doing that today?

[fujiyama]

111. Good point..

He was Quaker!

[ShaneGR]

52. Huh?

I would bet the family farm that the Edwards clan has LESS money than the Dean clan.

[curse10]

76. God forbid someone make something of themselves

who cares if Edwards is a millionaire? Who cares that Dean stays in shitty hotels? I don't particularly find it endearing, but obviously many people do (dean fans have to have something to hold on to).

[Nazgul35]

136. lol....

pot...meet kettle....

snort!

:evilgrin:

[Carolina]

150. John, the millionaire

who came from very humble roots, was the first in his family to go to college and made his money the hard way, he earned it ... is not doing so well.

Being born to wealth or acquiring it through work (and luck) should not be the issue. It's what a person does and how a person uses that wealth or the position and social standing it creates for GOOD, for public benefit rather than merely further private gain.

I think all of our wealthy candidates have bigger, better hearts and intentions than the selfish, spiteful, mean-spirited, genetic waste of wealth currently occupying the White House.

[dsc]

8. Just how do you know it isn't his life?

He has a four million net worth with no evidence of having been gifted by his parents. He got his education for free one would assume but that would be it barring you having some info I haven't seen. If that is the case his 4 million net worth may well be the result of saving money over the years by doing exactly what he is doing now.

[AP]

90. I'm going to guess that when his rich father died, he left half his

estate to his wife and the other half to his kids. But I also abe that Dean didn't take his cut and it went to his kids so it wouldn't be added to his net wealth and taxed at a higher rate. Also, I wonder how many trust funds he's living off of. And, if he is, he might only be declaring the annual income from the trusts, rather than the principle.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

21. Huh? "The truth of his life"?

Check out Dean's life sometime, he's extremely frugal, lives in a smaller lived-in house, drives an older car, wears worn suits...he may have some money saved, but this is not a man who lives a life of luxury. Read up on the man, don't just assume that he lives like a king because his father was a stockbroker.

[Eloriel]

22. On the contrary. He has a well-worn reputation as a tight-wad

He even told the story on Jay Leno about his decades old suit he was about to get rid of -- the one from JCPenney -- and threw it in the washer and dryer just to see what would happen to it and it came out looking so good he kept it.

They live modestly, tho comfortably, he paints his own house (inside and out), etc.

These things ARE the "truth of his life."

Eloriel

[slinkerwink]

24. yes, like my dad.....

my father's got about two million in assets, but we live in a three bedroom house, and he's a very very cheap man, lol. He prefers to do his own lawn instead of hiring other people.

[AP]

92. Dean's family isn't just rich and cheap...they're part of the ruling elite

There are lots of doctors and lawyer out in the hinter lands who are basically small businessmen who amass decent fortuns. But they aren't part of the Wall St ruling class which determines how we live and who makes money and who doesn't and what happens to people like Allende and Chavez, etc.

[Andromeda]

46. That's horse hockey...

Dean has always been frugal---that's just him.

[mzmolly]

47. Not nearly as clever as "my dadda was a mill worka"

sound familiar? ;)

[Pastiche423]

51. Don't forget

his grandpappy was a sharecropper!

[mzmolly]

68. And, he walked 30 miles up hill to school in the brutally cold SC winters

which lasted all year round...

Ok, sorry this is just too fun. :P

[Closer]

2. And if I'm not mistaken

Dean also stays with his supporters and volunteers in their homes when he travels (to Iowa, NH, etc.)

That says so much.

[slinkerwink]

4. yes, he does....

I remember that photo of him eating a bowl of cereal in the kitchen of a supporter's home ;-)

[ShaneGR]

7. You're supporting Dean because Sharpton stays in 5 star hotels?

Gees,an Al Sharpton bashing thread. That is actually rather original, must have run out of material on Clark, Kerry, and Gephardt.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

56. As someone with a gifted star

I am highly offended by your post. He deserved your ire but you insulted a hell of a lot of us.

[ShaneGR]

60. Sorry.... nt

[SEAburb]

29. well Al did make an actual upward move in SC poll

and is tied with Dean. Al went from 5 to 9 percent. Has DK ever polled that high anywhere.

[Ksec]

9. Its nice to see hes frugal

Thats a plus in my book and Shame on Big Al..

[KFC]

15. And I'm sure he re-uses his dental floss

This is obviously a calculated move. Don't be fooled - this is a very rich man.

But his wealth has nothing to do with his qualifications to be president. Not my choice, but I sure as hell will vote for him if he gets the nomination.

[slinkerwink]

20. if Dean's so privileged, then why does he.....

have an average family home instead of a mansion? Why does he mow his own lawn instead of hiring people to do it for him? Oh, why did he drop the glamorous life of being a stockbroker when he went into medicine? Why? Why? Why?


Oh, because he doesn't want the trappings of money. He prefers to live simply and recycles his own newspapers.

[elperromagico]

28. Because he likes to keep a balanced budget.

Just because he lives in a modest home doesn't necessarily mean he has a modest income. He may just be more comfortable in a small house, and perhaps his family is more comfortable there as well.

Believe it or not, some well-to-do people actually have sense when it comes to money. They're not all like rock stars and movie stars, who spend millions on a house with 40 rooms. half of which they'll never see.

Perhaps Dean is just a guy who puts comfort ahead of extravagance.

[KFC]

34. Who gives a shit?

The man is very rich, but frugal. That is a good quality, but he is hardly a working class hero. Any lifestyle is easy with millions in the bank.

This has nothing to do with his presidential qualifications.

[mzmolly]

69. Just as growing up poor has nothing to do with Presidential qualifications

:shrug:

[curse10]

74. Wow, you really are a broken record!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=794898&mesg_id=794912&page=

And this whole time I thought I was imagining that you just spewed the same stuff about Dean all over the board. :eyes:

[killbotfactory]

58. No, Dean is really a cheap ass.

Just ask any vermonter who's worked with him for the past 10 years as governer.

[pasadenaboy]

25. Its important to be responsible with campaign money

but other than that, who cares how rich someone is? If he's rich, good for him. I care about what they do with their money and how they use it and their other resources (time and talents) to help people. If you live in a big house or small house and do that, your okay with me. Issues are important, not the nonsense of who does their dishes or how big their house is.

Everyone who lives in the US is wealthy compared to how most of the rest of the world lives.

[Ksec]

86. Yep its possible to be wealthy but frugal

and I think its an admirable trait. I wont get into the partisan sniping. These guys are all Democrats and all worthy of a win. We should get behind all of them.

[Malva Zebrina]

26. OK Sharpton stays at these high class hotels

How come? He must know that he does not have a chance at the nomination by now. If this it true, how come he is doing this? What possible advantage can there be to spending money in this way? Is it not showmanship? Is it not the black man buying the cadillac once more when he is mired in poverty? I like Sharpton , but this is a little disconcerting from a presidential candidate.

[Cheswick2.0]

114. I find your reference to poor black men and cadilacs offensive

really, it smacks of racism.

[Cocoa]

27. Dean vs. Sharpton

that's why the RW loves Dean so much, he's such a convenient divisive force for the dems.

Way back when, Dean vs. Kerry was the big thing.

Now it's Dean vs. Gep, Dean vs. Clark, Dean vs. Sharpton.

[blm]

41. Eagle-eyes nails it again.

.

[dsc]

57. So it is Dean's fault that Sharpton is profligate

or he caused this reporter to write this? What utter horse hockey.

[Cocoa]

59. New York Post

you think they really care about this? I didn't bother reading the article, but something tells me they didn't mention Bush's expenses.

[dsc]

61. I checked they don't

but he also hasn't campaigned yet (I know he has but I mean legally). This isn't Dean's fault, nor is it an unreasonable way to cover this story. Both candidates have New York ties (Dean's mom lives their as does Sharpton) and there is a huge contrast in the way they are spending their money. I know many of you are utterly convinced that there is some plot to help Dean but this seems like a reasonable story.

[Cocoa]

63. the plot isn't to help Dean

it's to USE him to help Bush.

[Pastiche423]

64. How could he possibly help whistle ass?

[mzmolly]

70. That's because Dean's always been the 'one' to beat...

:)

[RetroLounge]

139. "he's such a convenient divisive force for the dems"

and thanks for helping the RW with their perception.

[loudnclear]

33. I just don't believe the numbers.

and who believes the press anyway?

[slinkerwink]

37. *snickers*

it's there on the FEC report....

[Cocoa]

40. you really like Dean, don't you

[slinkerwink]

42. yep, why, I sure do!

*chews tobbaco and spits it out, pulling onto overall straps* ;-)

[DemBones DemBones]

156. Never have known any baccy chewers, have you? n/t

[slinkerwink]

209. yep, I have....

I grew up in Texas.

[rumguy]

62. The Reverend has style...

I still remember an esquire profile of all the dem candidates...so many had lame pics of them with their families...nothing wroing with that but something about some of them kinda looked lame and staged...the reverend was in some hip restaurant with a hot chick (his wife I presume) he looked cool and cagey...

[oasis]

65. Al prefers Four Seasons because the rooms have fax machines..

[spooky3]

80. Any good hotel will have fax machine access.

[oasis]

85. uuuummm....would you believe Sharpton likes their terrycloth bathrobes?

:-)

[pansypoo53219]

66. considering the spending that PRIVILEDGED george has been doing

a tghtwad who saves is the best thing that we need to fix the red ink from GEORGE.

[whirlygigspin]

77. don't you know, Dean is an evil Rove plant

designed to sink the dems and break their winning streak!

[Myra]

72. People people, please try to stay on topic!

The NY Post wants us to trash Rev Sharpton in this
thread, not Gov Dean. Focus people, focus.

[Myra]

73. Oops, dupe post

So I changed it on edit.

Another dirty trick from the Sharpton/Clark/Dean/Kerry/Edwards/Kucinich campaign.
I just know it!

[elperromagico]

103. You left out Gephardt, Lieberman, and Moseley-Braun!

I'll get you for that, I will! :mad:

[Myra]

128. "I'll get you for that, I will! :mad:"

You'll have to catch me first.

:evilgrin:

[retyred]

75. If he bought another suit and stayed in a nicer hotel

He wouldn't have enough left over for ads to trash the other dems. After all he does have his priorities if nothing else.


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[SheilaT]

78. For one thing,

not all doctors make big bucks. I suspect that's especially true of family practitioners in places like Vermont.

I recently heard the story that when Dean was governor, he was still driving his son's soccer car pool, and when government business made it impossible for him to do his turn driving, he'd call himself (NOT have an aide do it) to get another parent to take over.

And at least as of four months ago he was staying in people's homes when out on the road, not in hotels. And he was flying scheduled airlines until he finally got enough money to charter an airplane.

As someone who has shaken his hand and spoken fact to face with him three times now, I can tell you that he comes across as totally unpretentious and down-to-earth. He has not acquired the self-importance that so many politicians acquire early and easily.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. "Rev Al livin LARGE" no racist code language in that title

[neuvocat]

82. Nope, none at all whatsoever.

I see no racism within that context at all where it implies that its wrong for a black man to stay in a nice hotel.

[sistersofmercy]

93. Who me? Well I never!

;-)

[Cheswick2.0]

110. hello and thank you

and did you catch the reference above to poor black people and cadilacs?
This story is just ridiculous.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

122. Yes I did. Break out your confederate flag...you'll fit right in

[JNelson6563]

89. I would rather have a man of means

who has little interest in showing it off running things than a guy who's never really known wealth to suddenly find oceans of it at his disposal.

Check it out, some of the most frugal rulers throughout the history of say, England, were some of the best. Henry II and Henry VII come to mind. Read a bit from some chronicles of the time, especially from Henry II and see....

You'll also find in those dusty old records tales of a man named William Longchamp. A long suffering royal clerk whose special abilities and industry were noticed by a soon-to-be King Richard. When Richard left on Crusade he left a governing counsel, but one man, one who was until recently a nobody, with a large concentration of power. The chronicle that best describes his subsequent behavior goes something like this: He was as a slave set free on the backs of his former masters......

I hesitated to mention that Longchamps part for fear someone would jump in with "rascist" accusations because Sharpton is black. It's not as I intended it, but some thoughts I had earlier today and the info from this article bear a strong resemblence IMO. I am certain this would have occured to me regardless of Sharpton's skin color.

Julie

[Fescue4u]

94. Why not???

Sharpton and Dean are playing for different goals.

Dean is playing to win the presidency..i.e the long haul.

Sharpton is playing to influence changes and get his message out. He's not trying to win the presidency, as he knows he has zero chance of winning. His money does not need to last through November.

Different goals, different methods of getting there.

[Fescue4u]

95. Four Seasons isnt exactly a luxury hotel

Actually its a mid range hotel. They have good prices and even there food service is reasonable priced.

[oasis]

99. The Ritz-Carlton in Chicago is a Four Seasons hotel. Not exactly a dump.

:shrug:

[AP]

101. Why don't we just compare room rates?

Where did Sharpton stay and where did Dean stay on the same night in the same city?

The rates should be available on the internet.

[oasis]

155. One night in a Las Vegas Four Seasons "moderate" room on Dec 1

will cost you $325.00 to $450.00. Vegas is loaded with thousands of less expensive rooms and suites.

Moderate is the lowest rate at this particular Four Seasons.

[Fescue4u]

102. I might be thinking of a different hotel then

I thought four seasons was a Starwood property, nearly the level of a Sheraton.

Regardless, who cares. I don't have a problem with Al staying a nice hotel

[arewethereyet]

96. why is anyone surprized at this ?

Al is an interesting addition to the dialog but was never a serious candidate. This is not unexpected behavior, sorry but its not at least to me.

[sistersofmercy]

97. (((((((Latest Breaking News))))))) Dean's Display of Extravagance...

chocolate-covered macademia nuts! What's wrong with chocolate-covered peanuts, we demand to know?!!!!!!!!!!!

[AP]

100. What's wrong with hiring a high school kid to mow your lawn so he can

start a college fund?

Does Dean give bums on the corner a quarter? Or is he cheap that way too?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

104. You must be kidding, right?

...since no one bought the idea that Dean's frugal behavior was a big coverup of his secret lavish lifestyle, you are now trying to suggest that he's bad for mowing his own lawn when he could be contributing to some neighbor kid's college fund?

LOL. That evil, evil Howard Dean!

[AP]

106. I'm just suggesting that the 'cheapness' image cuts both ways.

Fact is, Dean's from the ruling class. His father may have made choices that were the difference between misery and dignity for people, and which helped big businesses get bigger.

Dean is pretending that he's frugal to counter the perception that he's from the privileged class.

I'm just showing that it cuts both ways when you promote that image. I know a lot of rich people who engage in incredible acts of generosity and who feel that when they have so much, they're obligated to engage in activities that send that wealth downwards and outwards. Like, for example, if they're the four millionaire on the block, they might feel like they're doing something good when they hire a high school kid to mow the lawn.

[sistersofmercy]

109. OK Look at it this way!

First of all, I don't think Dean is pretending (BTW I'm not a supporter, I like Kerry) he's frugal and that's just that.
About lawncare: If I hire some high schooler to mow my lawn at the same rate as a lawn service it isn't cost effective. Why? Because the lawn service co will be bonded and the high schooler will not, it's a matter of legal responsibilty. Now if I knew her/his parents that's another matter. But generally speaking kids in Dean's area or mine for that matter don't need help with tuition and are too busy with extra-curricular activities to mow lawns. In an area where kids go to PS, community service is mandatory and sports, arts etc are highly competitve.

[AP]

116. As a sister of mercy, perhaps you appreciate this saying: it's easier for

a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven.

Do you know why? It's becuase if you die with a lot of money, then you didn't do a lot of good that you could have done.

Are you super rich? If you aren't, then it makes sense to hire someone who isn't a kid who's uninsured and might sue you if you cause them injuries. If you're loaded, you should be thinking of ways to spread the wealth so that you can end up entering the gates of heaven.

It's good to be frugal. But if you're loaded, being frugal just might prevent you from going to heaven.

Get it?

[sistersofmercy]

125. Whatever!

I don't buy that crap, please!

[sistersofmercy]

127. Wrong!

The ppl who work for the cos have children to support etc, a high schooler is supported by his parents. Why not give to something that's tax deductable and decide where your taxes go instead?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

115. "Dean is pretending to be frugal"?

Where do you get this? Is it not possible that he's just frugal? There are a host of anecdotal stories about Howard Dean that would suggest that he actually is frugal.

I know you don't like him, but this is a pretty silly attack.

[sistersofmercy]

105. B/C the high schoolers want to charge the same as the lawn service!

At least that's the case where I live. Cleaning services want at least 60 bucks an hour (or not even an hour) and even if you find someone for less, it'll eventually be 60 an hour anyway.

[AP]

107. Well, if you have a ton of money, what's wrong with spreading the wealth?

Do something productive with your time. Spend some quality time with the kids. Go serve soup at the soup kitchen, go give kids christmas presents, start a learning lab at the local highschool and work at it. Don't waste your time mowing your lawn when you could be making a more valuable contribution to society.

I'm only have joking, by the way.

Mostly, I'm just trying to prove that the frugality image cuts both ways.

[sistersofmercy]

113. But...

to imply that ppl who chose to mow their lawn or do other domestic things because they have the money to by the services, are just being uncharitible is simply not true. Sometimes ppl just enjoy the connection to their home, the labor of love, of pride.
I do give toys, clothes, food, money and all sorts of other things but don't appreciate the implication that b/c a chosen lack of expenditure makes me cheap or vile or accountable. The one thing I regret not having more time for is literacy. I would love to make more time for that. Or mentoring. But the area I'd have (Oh gee, now I'll be labelled a snob for sure) to go for mentoring, well, I'd have to buy a different car.

[AP]

117. We can spin out dozens of theories. But you're proving my point.

Frugality can be spun two ways.

That we're on post 100-and-something proves that this issue is debatable.

[sistersofmercy]

126. But WTF gives anyone the right to tell someone how to spend their

money.

[AP]

131. WTF gives anyone any right to run for pres and think people won't care...

...about this issue?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

133. What issue? Who mows his lawn?

Or whether you think he's just faking his frugality? Sorry, there's no issue here. Dean is worth a fraction of the other top candidates, and he is demonstratably frugal. There's no story here.

[sistersofmercy]

138. It doesn't matter what he's worth, it's a matter of choice, that's all!

Anyway, I agree with you.

[sistersofmercy]

135. Hey...

I'm not a Dean supporter but just merely stating that just b/c someone has the means to hire a lawn service and CHOOSES not to, it's not an issue! So rich ppl should just throw their money to the wind? Catch it if you can! Wow maybe more rich folks should gamble, think of the jobs! SILLY!

[AP]

142. has anyone in this thread read Wealth & Democracy?

anyone?

[sistersofmercy]

147. Please,...

go read the tread I just posted! Why do we expect perfection?

[AP]

161. again, has anyone read Wealth & Democracy???

Anoyone?

[RetroLounge]

144. OMFG! Dean Mowing his lawn is your Issue Du Jour?

BBBBBWwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaahahahhahahahahhahhaha

You've really lost it now...

[IndianaGreen]

157. Dean can also repair his lawn mower

another reason to hate the guy!

:eyes:

[AP]

162. If that's what you want to believe that I'm saying, laugh it up now,

and I'll pass you the kleenex when you're crying your eyes out at Bush's 2d inauguration.

[fujiyama]

119. The frugality image...

has a chance to play well with people, especially considering the way this administration is spending money left and right. I don't think Dean's background is what's most important.

Bush* is from a upper class background, and people had to know, considering who his father is, that his family is wealthy. At the same time, this helps Dean play the "I'm a regular guy routine".

I don't understand why this is even a topic. First of all, let's consider the source: The NY Post, a Murdoch owned piece of shit...

Second: Rev. Al Sharpton has not even the slightest chance of winning the presidency, none, nada, zip. I think this shows that Al is havin' fun now. Howard Dean has a chance to win the nomination (though I find it extremely unlikely he could win the general election) and needs to save all the $ he can get to go after Bush later.

Dean, cutting his grass, and staying at lower cost hotels is a sign of fiscal sensibility, if you ask me. I'm sure most would be impressed by those that can save money. It's an admirable quality that most Americans don't really have. Most Americans LOVE to spend, and show off.

The background is important to a certain extent. As long as wealth doesn't indicate elitism. In that way I think Kerry would have a somewhat difficult time, because he looks like he gives off that "NE liberal elite image" (though I think his policies are better for the average American than most of the candidates and I don't think he's as aloof as some say he is). However, this is about image and the image projected to those in the midwest, southeast, and southern states. In that case, I believe Edwards and Clark (though his background is somewhat privaleged) have a better chance of reaching out to a broader cross section of Americans, including minorities.

[sistersofmercy]

129. Good post!

I disagree on some points but a good post nevertheless. Clark will never carry the nomination but will make a great VP, for Dean in particular and if Kerry hooks up with Geppy, well, that settles that. But this is just how I see it turning out. Edwards is the wild card in my book but only as VP to someone, either Dean or Kerry.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

120. Or better yet...

go into public service, run for Lieutenant Governor, run for Governor, run for President! Make a real difference.

Read about Howard Dean's life. He's not enormously wealthy, though he has lived comfortably. And it's safe to say that as a public servant he's given plenty back to society and made a difference in many lives.

[RetroLounge]

141. Maybe Dean can hire the son of a Mill Worker

to mow his lawn?

[Pastiche423]

148. Or a grandson of a sharecropper?

[AP]

176. After Dean's done sewing his own suits and building his own furniture...

... there wont' be many sons of millworkers left becuase there won't be many mills.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

112. He's really a penny-pincher - almost to the point of being extreme

about it.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

118. When I saw Mike Ford from DFA last weekend, he talked about this

He said it could be frustrating sometimes, someone would suggest an idea that cost $50, and Dean would ask "So where are you going to get that $50?"

It was funny.

[AP]

121. Exaclty. It seems a little forced, on the one hand, and a little...

...inappropriate for a very wealthy guy, on the other. He was given so much in life, and what's he giving back?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

130. He's a public servant, and a doctor...

But I'm guessing you'd like him better if only he would hire some poor kid to mow his lawn!

"Seems a little forced." Say what?

And yes, he's a wealthy guy, but not necessarily compared to the other top candidates: Dean's net worth is something like $3.9 Million, compared to Kerry who is worth something like $160 Million and Edwards who is around $12 Million. By your measure, those guys should be working every day at the soup kitchen to earn your respect...

[slinkerwink]

132. good point! AP should read your post....

;-)

[AP]

140. What was Dean's father net worth, and what exactly did he do on wall st

and in Africa and China?

Dean came from Wall St. And he took Wall St with him when he governed VT, so it's not only a matter a perception, but of perspective -- Dean's perspective. Does he think that what's good for wall st is good for America? If you read his education plan, you might think so (it guarantees profits for Wall St by encouraging people to finance more of their education and then uses taxpayer money to subsidize loan payments to lenders).

[slinkerwink]

145. erm.....

so you think that Dean's career in medicine doesn't have any play in his governorship of Vermont? :shrug:

[RevolutionStartsNow]

146. I'm not voting for Dean's father

He rejected his father's profession and his father's politics.

Dean proposed that his higher education plan be paid for by repealing the Bush tax cut. I don't think that will make him particularly popular with the rich Wall St. people you think he is beholden to.

As part of his plan, students would not have to pay more than 10% percent of their income toward loans after graduation -- or 7% if they entered professions such as nursing, teaching, social work, law enforcement, firefighting and emergency medical care. All debts would be considered paid in full 10 years after graduation.

Or maybe we shouldn't help young people go to college -- maybe they just need to mow more lawns!

edit: in the interest of fairness, let me say that I think all of the plans I've read about (Kerry, Edwards, Dean) have been good. Dean's isn't perfect, but it's not the Wall Street gift you suggest it is.

[retyred]

123. From Reverend Al I would expect nothing less

Projections speak louder than words!



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[gottaB]

134. This is ridiculous to say the least

The comparison was unequal for one thing. Exploring new facts was not the purpose of that story. It was about disparate public images--to be honest just crude stereotypes. The intention was clearly to denigrate Al Sharpton.

BTW, you can find Dean's fec filings here. If you wish to continue making the argument about Dean's frugality, please don't do so at the expense of Al Sharpton and just about anybody with the good sense and decency to eschew racist smears from the New York Post.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

143. Yep very cheap play on the race card..

[gottaB]

205. the link expired or --no, it's being rewritten??

It should be available from this site.

or just go to www.fec.gov and find it there.

As for hotels, Dean for America has paid bills to Clarion Hotels of Sacramento, The Hyatt Regency in D.C., the Regency in Ft. Lauderdale, The Melrose Hotel of New York, Sheraton Hotels in Iowa City, Priceline.com in Stamford, CT, Marriott Hotels in D.C., Westin Hotels in San Fransisco, Holiday Inn Coliseum in Columbia, S.C., Super 8 Motels in Manchester, N.H., Renaissance Hotels in Hollywood, Hotel Fort Des Moines in Des Moines, Comfort Inn in Atlanta, Regency in NY City (Park Ave), Sheraton Hotels in IA, Towne Place Suites in Williston, VT, Holiday Inns of Dedham, MA, Mariott in Denver, Best Western in the Twin Cities, Handlery Hotel in San Fransisco, Clift Hotel in San Fransisco, Best Western Starlite Village of Des Moines, Blackhawk Hotel in Davenport, IA, Best Western in Ames, The Biltmore Hotel in Coral Gables, FL, Trapp Family Lodge in Stowe, VT.

That doesn't include travel/lodging expenses claimed by some consultants.

[Faygo Kid]

137. We Eat Our Own - Enjoy a second Bush term, folks

The BushBots are single minded. Here at DU, we seek to destroy each other. Enjoy. In a second Bush term, this site may not exist. But, what the hey, as long as you can spew invective about something like this?

[FDRrocks]

152. I agree with debate about candidates...

but this kind of obviously biased crap (where it states where Sharpton stays, omits where Dean stays (but mentions where his staff stays)).... is just bullshit.

Goddamnit... it's as substantial as... I dunno... empty space?

[FDRrocks]

149. Come on

The use of the words seems obviously biased. Al 'lives' and Dean 'stays'. Dean has alot more money... and puts his whole team up... does the article mention a word about what hotels DEAN himself stays in? He stays with his mom while in one state. He puts his team up in cheap hotels. Where does Howard Dean stay? The whole article gave me nothing about the hotels Dean stays in.

Biased crap. I especially love the apparently personally placed title of the thread. This crap is just that. Christ.

[slinkerwink]

151. Dean stays in the home of his supporters when he campaigns....

that answer your question?

[FDRrocks]

153. gimme a link... w/ edit and double edit.

and i'll be happy. Maybe when you compare that with the area of Sharpton supporters and his ability to stay with them. And then compare that to the other 7 candidates... then I would cease to argue.

edit: OH, BTW. You're topic title is deceptive... in that the article mentions nothing about where Dean stays. As a matter of fact... you told me he stays with supporters... but in the title claims he stays in cheap hotels. I'd like to see the logic. It seems a bit lacking.

d edit: I cannot believe how many people bought this. GODDAMN.

[slinkerwink]

158. I can't find that link now.....

there's too many photos to go through.

[FDRrocks]

159. Find it sometime... and explain the topic title afterwards...

please.

edit: just so you know, I alerted this. B/C the topic about Deans stay in 'Cheap Hotels' is not backed up by the article... and is in direct conflict with you telling me he stays with supporters.\

It is a completely unfounded attack.

[slinkerwink]

163. no, it's not an attack....

just a comparison of how frugal Dean is compared to Sharpton.

[FDRrocks]

166. There is no comparison....

how does Sharptons staff live?

This whole deal is comparing how one candidates staff lives as opposed to an actual candidate. You're in college, I've gathered, you should be able to discern this. Hell, I did when I wasn't sober.

[slinkerwink]

167. hold on....look at the last sentence...

"Hotels listed in Dean's financial statements include Howard Johnson's, the Comfort Inn and the anything-but-glamorous Franklin Hotel on the Upper East Side."

So, Dean has stayed at those hotels also...

[FDRrocks]

169. Look at the last two paragraphs... jeez

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean (news - web sites) - who had $12 million on hand as of Oct. 15 and is not accepting public financing - often stays with his mother when in New York and always puts his staff up at non-luxury hotels, according to a campaign source.


Hotels listed in Dean's financial statements include Howard Johnson's, the Comfort Inn and the anything-but-glamorous Franklin Hotel on the Upper East Side.

If he puts his staff up... it would show up on his statement...disagree? Or was an unseen entity paying for his staff and attributing it to him?

[slinkerwink]

170. Why don't you actually check out the FEC report?

[FDRrocks]

172. b/c I am referencing your article...

which, btw, is nothing but Spin.... especially given the topic title.

[AP]

174. This is a great subthread.

Keep going.

[FDRrocks]

177. As long as straws keep getting grabbed...

I'll keep going. Glad someone else is seeing this. The people that bought into this on this thread kinda frighten me. But then again I scored 100% on my critical reading in the SAT's.

[slinkerwink]

180. so now the SATs are a reference for political analysis?

:shrug:

[FDRrocks]

184. No that was a passive comment...

as in the people that bought this crap deceptive thread of yours either didn't read or lacked the skills to critically read. For the record, I would pick the first choice.

As I said... straws.

[slinkerwink]

188. this thread was a response to people who mistakenly said that

Dean was filthy rich, and didn't have anything in common with the middle class. His frugality would have to go against the perceived "richness" because of Dean's childhood.

[JohnKleeb]

189. I didnt say that for the record

I thought his net worth was 3-4 million? No offense but thats rich. :shrug: I dont care about his wealth.

[FDRrocks]

194. That is rich....

no one in my history has had even near that. And I would be willing to put up my last 15 bucks until next paycheck (damn christmas) that Sharpton and his family never had that to work off of.

Hi Kleeb! BTW.

[slinkerwink]

196. which campaign do you support, btw?

The rest of the candidates have more money in assets than Dean does---he's literally the least rich of those candidates.

[FDRrocks]

197. DK

[JohnKleeb]

199. umm no offense slinker

but networth wise, he aint the poorest. Kucinich is like 1-30K.

[slinkerwink]

203. I stand corrected.....

but it's still silly to say that Dean is like the rich when he bucked against his father by going off Wall St. and into medicine...that seems to be pretty much a stance against the money trappings of Wall St.

[JohnKleeb]

206. Just sayin

I dont have a problem with Dean being of the moneyed class.
Take a gander, thats my hero FDR, and he was richer than Dean as was RFK. I dont have a problem with him being rich believe me. Well I dont know. I wasnt giving Dean a hard time for being rich, all I did was recall what I heard Dean's networth was which is quite a lot and thats ok, quite a lot for me personally that is, that its kinda wrong to give Edwards a hard time for being wealthy when hes selfmade really, and etc. I didnt bash Dean. I dont care. I am sorry if it looked like I offended but I dont have beef with dean for being rich at all.

[FDRrocks]

200. Dennis Kucinich

since I missed your post with my last thread.

edit: Guess I didnt. I'll leave this around.

edit: I just thought that cause our little thread fiber has reached its limit.

[gottaB]

211. That isn't true

Dean has more net worth than Lieberman, Gephardt, Braun and Kucinich. He has less money than Kerry, Edwards, and of course *. Sharpton's and Clark's finances I can't say offhand, but certainly Dean has more than Sharpton and perhaps Clark.

Here's my source

[JohnKleeb]

213. Thanks gotta thats exactly what I was thinking of

3-5 million my mistake, only a million off lol, only a million. No offense but my family's networth wont be that, unless I win the lottery.

[JohnKleeb]

201. I am not sure but I think I heard that somewhere

and if it true, it true, and :hi:. I am not sure about Al's upbringing, I know about DK's, but Sharpton's I think was like lower middle class.

[FDRrocks]

193. It stated nothing about Deans wealth...

it stated Sharpton's extravagence... against Dean... who was not mentioned in his living status at all in the article. I have nothing against you... but b/t the article and the topic title (and purported message)... this whole thread is crap.

If you want to compare these these two... do a bi-biography thread... not a biased thread like this.

[slinkerwink]

178. so you're saying that Sharpton's excessive spending doesn't

say anything about what he's likely to be as President?

[FDRrocks]

181. What is there to compare it to?

As far as personal spending on Hotel rooms go? I would like to see the cost of Dean's staff intermingled with his hotel costs vs. Sharptons.

[slinkerwink]

183. but you know nothing about Sharpton's staff.....

and plus, Dean's campaign is known for its frugality. Sharpton isn't going anywhere because he has not maximized his money to open offices in primary states, hence he's basically using his campaign money to support his platform to be the "black leader" of the black voters.

[FDRrocks]

185. Where is it known?

How big is Sharptons staff compared to Deans? Please let me know.

[Carolina]

154. give Al a break

and Howard too for that matter. The Post is Rupert's rag; it's job is to stir up stink among Dems and undermine Dem candidates. True or not, it's a distraction.

[Zomby Woof]

160. Calvin Coolidge was a tight-ass too

Coolidge, the Republican do-nothing (except for big business) president was (unlike Dean) a native of Vermont, and his cheapness didn't necessarily make him a good president, either.

In fact, none of these crazy assertions, implications, inferences, assumptions, and every fallacy in-between, pro or con with a candidate, means a goddamned thing on what kind of president the person will make.

I look at their record, and for that charalatan serving as governor of Vermont, I don't like it, and I don't like the latent racism in your thread title.

All of you Dean cultists are pushing me more and more to oppose his nomination to almost the same level as I oppose Bush's occupation of the White House.

[slinkerwink]

164. please don't call us cultists....

We're supporters that have been drawn into the political process, and we're very excited about being involved in a campaign. Would you prefer for us to be politically apathetic?

[AP]

165. Everybody's excited about their candidate. Not everyone manifests that

excitement the same way.

[slinkerwink]

168. thank you for at least recognizing that

political enthusiasm for a candidate can be manifested in many ways, but we are no cultists, just supporters that are willing to work hard to get Dean nominated. God forbid that Americans should actually get involved in helping a candidate get nominated!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

171. I think it's inevitable

that some people on the "outside" of a large group or movement will call them "cultists" or accuse them of a mob mentality. It comes from either not understanding or just plain not liking the reason for the popularity. It's not jealousy exactly, though it may seem like it sometimes.

Dean inspires a kind of fun and enthusiasm that isn't common in politics, and he has certainly attracted some newbies who don't know all the protocol. The attractiveness of the Dean campaign (not for everyone, I know) has already paid off big for the candidate, and will continue to. He inspires a kind of loyalty that isn't common among skeptical and jaded Democrats. We've been burned before.

[slinkerwink]

175. I used to be a skeptical and jaded Dem after the 2000 election

but now I really think there's light at the end of the tunnel.

[Zomby Woof]

187. and you'll be burned again

Dean isn't McGovern or Mondale or Goldwater or any of those facetious comparisons. He is only Dean, and that is enough to doom him, and us, if he gets the nod.

[slinkerwink]

190. oh please....

:eyes:

[Zomby Woof]

195. if I'm wrong

I'll be the first to admit it and apologize. I am eagerly awaiting the same admission from a Kerry supporter I had a run-in with a YEAR ago because this person "guaranteed" and "promised" he would be elected in '04, and was just dying to make me eat crow. Think that's going to happen now? ;-)

I can be wrong as hell, but my track record on DU is pretty good. I really took a good beating when I predicted that nothing would hurt Bush with the CIA/Plame leak (and believe me, I wish it did!), among many other nascent scandals he has gotten away with. Just for dismissing the Watergate comparisons alone, I was hounded, lol. But that's why I love this place.

So I am toughened up as it is with my equally unpopular predictions about Dean and his chances. He doesn't have what it takes to win over the red states we need next year, in the south and the west.

But my offer stands, and I will eat the largest crow you have ever seen if I am wrong - I'll even put up his avatar until Inauguration Day. I am serious.

[slinkerwink]

198. so you'll put up his avatar if he wins the nomination?

;-)

[Zomby Woof]

202. if he wins the election

Meaning, he gets all those red states we need, plus holds on to the blue ones. I am not sure anyone disputes he needs the south.

I have also said I will vote for him if he gets the nod; I am not one of those whiners who picks up his ball and goes home if things don't go my way. Why the hell be a political junkie if you aren't willing to take a few hits for the team? I do want Bush out bad enough to rally 'round when the time is nigh.

Just in case you or other Dean supporters didn't notice, I defended him on the draft-dodging bullshit (I know it when I smell it), and the "small-state governor" bullshit. Criminy! I don't put myself in the same camp as the other non-Dean people. Those kinds of arguments are embarrassing and desperate. I may take potshots and sting a bit, but I don't have to make shit up. :-)

[slinkerwink]

204. I don't think Dean needs to win the South to win the general election

I think he can win the western states, and the other traditional Democrat-leaning states, plus win NH in the general election, and he's got the numbers to win the general election. Also, you only need one southern state such as Florida to get the white house.

[Zomby Woof]

212. here's where we have an honest disagreement

This actually applies to ANY of the Dems, whomever shall get the nod:

Florida will be even tougher in 2004, for reasons I shouldn't have to elaborate on, because of Jeb, the fixing, and the climate change, post 9-11 and so forth. I strongly think if that the Dems don't get Florida, they can't win at all.

Secondly, I live in a western swing state (check avatar, lol), and though it could conceivably go Dem (I hope it does of course), I think the Dems would also have to carry NM again (Gore barely won it), and Colorado, which Clinton carried in '96, also making it a swing state. What other western states did you have in mind? Washington and Oregon are usually reliably Democratic, and who knows if California is as sure a thing as it was for Gore? I am going to put that in the Dem column though. That leaves Montana, Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming. Those are solid Bush states.

The midwest states in the farm belt? They SHOULD vote Dem, but the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas haven't voted Dem since LBJ in '64, and FDR in 1932, and for some of those, in 1936. They went back to the GOP as before, and ever since. Texas will be Bush of course, as will Oklahoma.

The northeast and Great Lakes? Those are fickle states, but I can see the Dems getting all but possibly Indiana, Iowa, and New Hampshire. Still, Florida looms large if Michigan, Ohio, or Wisconsin can't be won, and they are good bets. New York should go Dem, but even that feels shaky, and so does PA. Outside of NH, the rest of New England should go Dem with little problem.

I think looking beyond Florida in the south, Georgia is also a must. It still looks strongly GOP. It would help getting Tennessee and Arkansas back too. I don't know, the south cannot be dismissed. Even Dean knows this, or he wouldn't have made his plea to win working class votes there.

So what states do you think he can win (or any Dem) if he doesn't get Florida? Or even if he does. It would help if we had a map ready, with a highlighter pen and a calculator, lol.

[slinkerwink]

215. Hmmmmm.....

we DO need an electoral strategy regardless of who the nominee is.

[Carolina]

225. excellent points, ZW

[Zomby Woof]

179. no, just politically realistic

I am not alone in this... I have been a veteran campaign watcher for over 2 decades now (lots of DUers, for far more than that), and although I have witnessed some very enthusiastic support for a variety of candidates - frontrunners, longshots, darkhorses, third party people, and every stripe of both major parties, I have never, and I mean never seen such unquestioning, blind, uncritical, and polarizing behavior from ANY of the candidate's supporters. Reagan's people came close, but they are Republicans after all, and we should expect the groupthink mentality from them.

I campaigned for Bill Bradley in 2000, because like you, I believed in his leadership abilities and policies to an extent I had never been able to muster for previous candidates (Dukakis and Clinton, the last 2 nominees of my voting age lifetime, were far from my first choices, and I didn't volunteer for them), so I understand, to an extent, your devotion. I should hope we all give a damn.

But really, it crosses over from enthusiasm and devotion to outright overbearing and uncritical adoration. I use the term "cultist" rather figuratively, because there ARE similarites between many (not all) of the Dean people on this site, the blogs, you name it. I listed them in sardonic fashion last week in P&C, but unfortunately it was pulled, but not before many people chimed in with agreement. Are you ready to give up your life for him? No, of course not - I said figurative, not literal above - but the aura of obsessive devotion remains, and makes the Dean crowd open for ridicule.

Back when his name was first making the rounds, before it became all the buzz on the Internet and even on here, I gave Dean a chance. I first learned about him from a fellow marcher (and DUer) at Seattle's International Women's Day Parade last winter. I was eager to learn more, hoping he was someone, like Bradley, I could trust and throw my support behind, financial or otherwise. I did my homework. I was singularly unimpressed and disappointed. It wasn't the first time, because that's politics.

But my DU friend, and others on here got more and more into him, and it evolved into some kind of elite enclave. Rather than encouraging debate and openness, marks of democratic discourse I want, even among fellow supporters, it became shoutdowns and put-downs of those who questioned.

I used to be more civil and patient, but as the stridency of Dean's many followers increased, so did my contrariness and sense of the absurd about all of it. I am not so sure just how dedicated you all are to "saving the country" when you are all doing a damn fine job of alienating once potential supporters, polarizing the base with fallacious inferences about his spending habits and his quality of character, and spamming these boards with dupicate threads. Plus, you decry "Dean-bashing" while engaging in your own. I have seen you take your own fair share of gratuitous insults and potshots at other candidates. Is it any wonder you are being met with more and more resistance, even from people who normally don't have a problem with your enthusiasm?

Pace yourself - it's a long haul to the primaries. If you truly want more people to support Dean, many of you on here would do well to ease up on the evangelizing. It's, as I said, overbearing to the extreme.

[slinkerwink]

182. why don't you tell Clark supporters to do the same?

By your standards, they're equally as guilty of this "political evangelism"....

[Zomby Woof]

191. oh, I've had my run-ins with them too

But you Dean folks surpass even them in ways that amaze me. Now if Clark becomes the front-runner, I am sure my criticisms of him will step up to the levels they were during the "Draft Clark!" movement, which were particularly nasty times in here. In fact, GD now has a special set of its own rules because of those heady days, lol.

But I am fair. When Dean does something right, I say so. Unfortunately, because we're either all for or all against the candidate with the reactionary mindset in here, that goes unrecognized, but I'll live. :-)

[AP]

186. excellent post.

[AP]

192. Do you know how some rich white college kids have no problem wearing torn

jeans, and not showering, and dressing like they aren't rich. But many black students dress up, and wear expensive jewelry and always shower, no matter what day of the week or what time of day.

You ever notice that?

Wonder why that happens?

Because if you're black and you go low-budget, people think you're poor.

White kids like Dean can go low budget, and it doesn't matter becuase they're white.

If Sharpton went low budget, he might as well not go at all. Dean lived with black kids in college. Didn't he notice this?

[slinkerwink]

207. now, now, AP....

I'm betting Dean has noticed this since he worked in the emergency room in a hospital in the Bronx and worked on a farm with migrants.....

[AP]

210. I'm talking about places like college where black students worry about

how white students percieve them, or in presidential campaigns where if the blank candidate stayed in a dive, he could just forget about the media even coming with 10 blocks of his hotel, much less a single white voter or donor.

I don't think that sort of stuff concerns anynoe in emergence rooms in the Bronx.

[slinkerwink]

216. a dive?

I don't think that Braun or Sharpton stays in dives before they campaigned....

[AP]

217. I'm not saying they did. What I'm saying is that if either of them wanted

not to be taken seriously as a candidate, they should stay in a low-budget hotel.

My point is that there's a little undercurrent of racism in this thread comparing Dean and Sharpton. One of the reasons Dean CAN stay in any hotel he wants, low-budget or hight budget, is BECAUSE he's a priveleged white guy. It's just like the way rich white kids can dress as crunchy or as dirty as they want to be in college, but black kids have to dress a little better unless they look too ghetto or too 'bama.

It's not an option for Shaprton to discredit his campaign by going low budget. To turn around and use this obvious truth against Sharpton is BS.

[slinkerwink]

218. Braun and Sharpton aren't still being taken seriously

because they don't have the grassroots campaign or the fundraising numbers that Dean and other candidates have...

[AP]

219. Imagine what would happen if they started staying in cheap motels.

Please tell me you understand my point.

[slinkerwink]

220. If they had the money Dean has, and they were staying in cheap motels....

I really don't think there'd be a problem.

[AP]

221. Have isome explain it to you, or Dean. he had black roommates in college.

If they started staying cheap motels the supporters they have might abandon them, leaving them with even less money.

That's what it's like being black in America. Unlike Dean, you don't have the option of going ghetto-style and still be taken seriously.

[dsc]

226. Dean isn't staying in dives

I have stayed in some of the hotels that Dean is staying in and they are clean, comfortable, safe, and cheap. I have also stayed in dives. I know the difference. And BTW just how do you know Braun is staying in fancy hotels? I read the article and she isn't mentioned.

[Isome]

208. *ahem*

The conclusion you alluded to, if I'm correct, seems to be on the mark. However, there's a problem with your assessment, well there are three problems.

...black students ¹dress up, and ²wear expensive jewelry and ²always shower

Let's start with #1:

Being "dressed up" is a subjective appraisal. If I wear khakis and color-coordinated suede boots & a shirt, I've heard white people call that dressed up. That's not dressed up, that's just being dressed.

#2:

How do you know all that glitters is actually gold, silver, or platinum? Wearing good looking jewelry doesn't have to break the bank if you know how to pick out decent fake stuff. You'd be surprised how much of what you see is fake and bought with the idea that it's an accessory, not an investment.

#3:

Bathing daily is a necessity. It isn't done to impress anyone, or to keep others from thinking less of them; it's done because NOT doing it is just plain nasty. If you know anyone who bathes simply to impress people you should be sure to thoroughly wash your own hands after being in their company... you can't be sure they thought enough of you to bathe.

Despite all that, you are correct if you're attempting to say that people of African descent do have to go the extra mile to thwart even the appearance of being socially unacceptable to the average caucasian. If we were to wear dirty jeans, threadbare or outdated suits, or stained, torn or wrinkled clothes on a regular basis, we'd experience more overt discrimination than we're prepared to deal with.

[AP]

214. Where do you go to college? (1)Bathing daily is not major concern for many

white male upper middle class students who know that they're going to get by on a lot less than their poorer students. Don't you know rich white college students who are dirty and messy? Garcia hasn't been dead THAT long.

(2) The point isn't what the jewelry's worth. It's that many (not all) black students feel like, if they dress down, they'll look poor, which would be a problem. I'm talking at, like, expensive colleges where there are lots of rich white kids. Even cheap jewelry makes you look like you're doing OK.

(3) Dressed up may be subjective. But it's also relative. In an expensive college, the poorere you are, the more likely you're going to look cleaner and more pressed than a rich kid. This is totally anecdotal, but I think it's practically a truism. If you're white and poor you're lucky, because you can dress down, and dress cheaply and still look like the rich white kids, but it generally takes a semester or two to figure this out. If you're black, no such luck. You're going to have to have that iron, and the button down shirts, etc. I could line up students based on dress, and I'm pretty sure most of the black studetns, regardless of wealth, are going ot be at the dressed up end and some of your richest white students are going to be at the messy end.

But, yes, your last paragraph is my point. And it might explain why Sharpton has to stay in the nice hotels and Dean doesn't have to worry about it.

Going low budget is privilege of being white and rich. If you're black, it's a good way to limit your options.

[Isome]

222. On the major point we agree; that's cool, BUT

You may be missing my point about the others.

Bathing is about good hygiene. It isn't done to impress white people. It's done as a matter of course.

Jewelry, the amount worn and the type, is about one's personal style. Some is expensive, though much of what you see probably isn't as expensive as you think.

You could visit the campuses of Bethune-Cookman, FAMU, Florida Memorial, Spelman, Howard or Moorehouse (all historically Black colleges) and see essentially the same mode of dress as that worn by Blacks on predominately White college campuses, expensive or not. Why? Because it's considered being casually dressed to go out in public, not "dressed up" to fit in on campus.

[Carolina]

227. there's real merit to your statement

As a black person, I have always told young people I work with and counsel, to dress for success. May sound trite but as we know all too well, perception matters. Dress like a thug, you'll be perceived as one. Dress low budget (dirty, scruffy clothes), you'll be perceived as dirty, unkempt and unworthy....

The flip side, unfortunately, is that too many of our youngsters have bought into the notion that the clothes (the car, the house, the trappings) make the man. So we end caring more about appearances. What seems versus what is, and it feeds that American consumerism mentality: the goal of making/acquiring a lot of money so you can buy things rather than focusing on intellect, growth, reflection and lifelong education.

I still think this thread is giving too much focus to some divisive piece of crap in Rupert Murdoch's rag. But wanted to let you know that your point is well taken.

[ecstatic]

223. As if you would have supported Sharpton anyway

Give me a break. This board was a total waste of space.