Republicans will be playing the race card on the CA recall ballot

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

To be sure everyone is aware, not only will the October 7 recall ballot include the recall issue. It will also include a vote on the Racial Privacy Act/Initiative. Connerly has a habit of using titles that on their face appear to deliver but do little more than call out the racist wing of the Republican party.


Racial Privacy Act more about sending message than change
But this may be one initiative that's not worth all the energy. For this might as well be called the Non-Sequitur Proposition. Sure, initiative sponsor Ward Connerly says his measure will prevent state and local governments from using race to classify students, contractors or public employees. Connerly is the University of California regent whose efforts in 1996 led to passage of the Proposition 209 ban on affirmative action.

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/Stories/0,1413,206~11851~1507213,00.html

[fertilizeonarbusto]

1. ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm SO SICK of that self-loathing Uncle Tom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stopthegop]

4. so what's wrong with saying

the state can't classify you by race? Should the state treat all citizens the same? And isn't 'race' a bogus concept anyway?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. If it were a bogus concept, please explain the KKK and White Aryan

Resistance.Race classifications help to ensure whole groups are not being dismissed. Your argument works both ways. Redlining proved that.

[stopthegop]

7. it's bogus in the sense

people are genetically 99.xx% the same... except for a few specific diseases people are molded by culture...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Tell that to the KKK and WAR and those who wouldburn a cross on a lawn

I already know that.

[stopthegop]

14. so...you're in favor of supporting their delusions? n/t

.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. No. I am in favor of ensuring institutions do not get a free pass to

discriminate under misleading titles that allow them to do so.

If one is going to monitor the acts of discrimination, one must have measurements to do so.

[stopthegop]

18. I see...

so you don't think the state (leaving private entities out for now) should treat all people the same?

[sangha]

19. Stupid

How will you know that the state is "treats all people the same" if you don't keep records?

BTW, I don't think the state should treat all people the same. For one thing, I think that only the poor should able to receive welfare.

[stopthegop]

20. not stupid..

if the rules are the same for all, there's no need to know person A was white and person B was black..you need records that person A did or did not get into UCLA, and his test scores, and need the same info for person B...if there's a standard each will either make it in or won't

[sangha]

21. Yes, stupid

1) People don't get treated the same, nor should they be

2) The differences in how people are treated should be the result of factors other than race. The only way to tell if race has been a factor is to track it. As long as people of all races are tracked, then all people are being treated the same.

Only the sophistic would claim that a policy that applies to all results in people being treated differently

[stopthegop]

22. I guess we disagree..

I think one set of rules for everyone is the way to go, you don't (nor should they be)...have a good weekend

[sangha]

23. Just as stupid

You seem to think a requirement that applies to all in an equal manner is unequal treatment, and when I point that out, you fly off like Bush* on 9/11.

Have a nice flight!

[stopthegop]

24. didn't mean to step on what is obviuosly a religious issue for you

sorry

[sangha]

25. typical

You can't defend your ridiculous claim that treating people the same is treating people different, so you insist on subtly implying personal bias on my part.

You know, alcohol's effect is much stronger at high altitudes

[stopthegop]

26. ok...

have a good weekend...try actually thinking about it...
if all follow same rules..that's treating people the same...then why is a person's race important?

[sangha]

27. Still at it?

Why don't you just explain how requiring all people to do the same thing (specify their race) is "treating people differently"?

Enjoy the flight

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangha]

29. Still at it?

You can't answer the question. That's OK. Everyone else will see that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. "if all follow the same rule" Please explain on a policy level how you

would accomplish this with no measurement in place. It is one thing to wax philosophical with ideologic platitudes. It is quite another to craft sound public policy that measures if in fact all are being given an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

[sangha]

31. Don't give him an out, nsma

Let him first explain why making everybody specify their race is "unequal treatment"

[stopthegop]

32. make it the responsibitly of each student ( in the case of a school)

to know the standard and their own scores...let an aggrieved party take action..have a mechanism in place to address grievances...have the school publish the anonymous score of all people admitted to a class..

[sangha]

33. You see, nsma

He won't answer how equal treatment is unequal treatment. You only gave him the opportunity to repeat the propoganda.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. But that's not equal treatment since schools also have sports

programs. One could have low test scores and be a great athlete. That would discriminate against a white athlete with poor grades but a good throwing arm. How would we ever have Joe Montana? He wasn't a rocket scientist. Many things are weighted in college admissions. Would you deny Joe Montana the right to a career based strictly on his grades?

BTW you guys, thanks for hijacking my thread so people will know there's more than one item on the ballot.:D

[sangha]

36. Hijacking?

The proper term is "kicking it to the top"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. smooch

as much as we may spar..I LOVES ya buddy!

[sangha]

38. That's more like it

My colitis is feeling better already :-)

[stopthegop]

40. gone for a while nsma....sorry

your point about sports (for instance) is well taken. Maybe if we think of it as 'qualifications' instead of 'scores'....if everyone looks at the same list of factors and is objectively judged (may be hard in sports) on them...

as an aside: I wouldn't deny Joe M a career...but why should the public support a farm system for the NFL...unlike for baseball?

have a good weekend..

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. but it is scores based on a variety of qualifications

and those qualifications include diversity and insurance against institutionally locking anyone out of the process by virtue of race or sex...that includes white people and males.

If one based it solely on merit of grades, men wouldn't be getting a higher education right now.

[stopthegop]

42. if you make 'diversity' a goal

you by definition treat people differently based on whatever factor you diversify on (race, age, height, eye color)...if you don't, the chips fall where they may...and people stand or fall on their own...

Granted, this needs to extend all the way to kindergarten (sticking with the school theme) to work...

Oh...didn't mean to contribute to a threadjacking..sorry

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. Not necessarily. If you make diversity a goal

it is one factor weighted agaist many...everybody is not the same...if we treated everybody the same there still wouldn't be wheelchair ramps in public places.

on edit: since not using a wheelchair would be considered the norm

[stopthegop]

44. good point about wheelchair ramps...

but..if you have two people who are identically qualified except for eye color and you pick green eyed one because you're .003% low on green eyed students compared to the general population...the brown eyed one gets shafted...because of an irrelevant factor

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. LOL! That is why eye color is not a factor

[stopthegop]

47. yeah...just using a neutral example...

same idea applies for race...unless you by fiat make race a relevant factor...which factoring for diversity does

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. I would ask you to explain why it isn't relevant because now we are

starting to get a bit circular in our debate.

[nomorehate]

39. I'll play Devil's Advocate here...

What does this apply to? Everything, or just student admissions? That's really the focus, isn't it. If so, it should be possible to measure results after the students have been admitted. That way, every individual has equal opportuny based on merits, and the state still has the numbers it needs. Infact, this may be a better way to deal with racial issues, as it should satisfy all sides (although I know that is overly optimistic).

[_Jumper_]

35. AA in California discriminates against Asians

I guess whites in California are only racist against blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans. The way to make "race" not an issue is to stop factoring it into everything. IF ethnicity was mentioned 24/7 there would still be a lot of anti-Italian and anti-Irish sentiment out there.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. If we stop factoring it into everything what happens to services for

sickle cell or other diseases that tend to favor certain peoples?

How would you know it discriminates against Asians if we didn't measure it?

Would you rather that discrimination be invisible and therefore ignored as it was during the gold rush and WWII?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[David__77]

2. A note on this intiative...

I don't think it will aid pro-recall forces. These people already hate Davis and will vote. More importantly, it may drive up efforts by organizations in communities of color to get people to the polls--that would help Davis.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

3. I agree ....

We had that Pete Wilson fiasco that pissed off the Latino voters and 209 has turned out to be a nightmare for our colleges (black enrollment at UC Berkeley's law school went down to 2 people the first year after 209) and now they are trying to take it their crap one step further.

I think this attempt needs to be hammered by Democrats --

[oasis]

10. Slick bastard GOPers were helped by a gun initiative on the ballot

way back when Bradley (black) ran against Duekemajian (white) for Cal Governor.

Bradley had a handsome lead in the polls all through the campaign up to election day.

Many believe the gun nut turnout did Bradley in.

[Hanuman]

6. Connerly also adamantly opposes Legacy admissions-

At least he's consistent.

[SoCalDem]

8. Legacies are always going to be there (wink-wink-nod-nod)

and usually a "legacy" will have parents who can afford to send their kid anyway.. These are not the scholarship kids..they are the "space hogs"..

Legacies save the universities money anyway.. Kid gotr bad grades, but Daddy or Mummy-poo went there?? Dad will "donate" some money for a new dorm or something..

The spaces that go to legacies and/or some foreign students are well paid for.. The scholarships to poor (ethnic) kids are the ones that give reduced rates or free packages ... They like to keep that money..That's why fewer and fewer middle to lower socioeconomic kids can afford college now..

It's systematic:(

[Hanuman]

11. That all may be true-

But legacies are STILL Bullpuckey. It almost seems like you give legacies a pass, here. Personally, I think that if public schools deny any kind of preferences- legacies MUST be among them. That is at least fair.

[SoCalDem]

12. I am not giving them a pass at all..

I am saying that this is the "qualifier" that ole ward used...."Hey , I am against legacies too"... (knowing full well that there will always be room for a son/daughter/nephew/niece of a well placed alumn)..

These are the code words again..

He is REALLY after the other part, but throws this in to "appear" fair and balanced.. there's that phrase again.. where have we heard that ????

[ShaneGR]

9. It's better known as the CRENO measure, but the date?

Are you sure it's on the Oct. 7th ballot?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. Yes it is buried in all the recall news stories this AM. It qualified

to be on the "next" statewide ballot and since this is the next statewide ballot, it will be on.