The real danger is H-1Bs and L-1s, not IT outsourcing

[gulliver]

Clark's statement about letting India do software was a bit defeatist with respect to that industry (of which I am a part). True, as time goes by India and other countries will develop more and more of a foothold in this industry and others. That is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if it means a gradual reduction of poverty in the world and new customers for businesses.

My beef is with the current abuse of the H-1B and L-1 visa system. These two programs do not serve their respective stated purposes (filling hard-to-fill skill set vacancies and permitting workers of foreign owned companies to work in the United States). Instead, both programs are used to undercut the market value of American software know-how.

Anyone who has worked with new programmers knows that there is a major difference between experienced programmers and beginners. Experienced programmers get that way by adopting vast numbers of largely non-standardized techniques, idioms, quality, and performance factors, etc. This kind of know-how and experience does not come out of any book, nor can it be taught in college courses.

That's my problem with the current (as I would call it) abuse of the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. These programs -- if not used wisely and with the best interest of the United States in mind -- can actually transfer a valuable commodity (software know-how) right out of the country. That is because the valuable skills learned by H-1B and L-1 visa holders are learned by working with experienced American workers. Simply put, our visa system is being exploited in order to take part of America's value away from Americans.

I am not a protectionist. I don't mind if India picks up software jobs, and I don't even mind H-1Bs in principle. I just don't like H-1Bs and L-1s being abused (used in a manner not in keeping with their intention) in order to hurt Americans.

I believe that if there were no H-1B or L-1 abuse, the rate of transition to Indian IT would be drastically reduced and would allow the American IT industry to develop even greater know-how. We could maintain our lead in this critical industry and extend its technology for decades into the future. If H-1B and L-1 abuse are allowed to continue, Americans will be thrown out of the industry and will avoid entering it. And in the short-to-medium term, that is very bad for America.

On edit: BTW, I still strongly support Clark. I think his statement was a bit of a gaffe, but am still greatly impressed with him.

[annxburns]

1. I agree it was a bit of a gaffe ...

... but people are making too much of it. He needs to clarify how he would help the IT industry i.e. keeping jobs from going overseas or generating new jobs for this industry here. His campaign should clarify his statement but I'm not about to kill him for it. All the other candidates have had similar type of gaffs. I think he just poorly worded his comment ....

[bpilgrim]

2. it's NOT 'it outsourcing' it's EXPORTING JOBS

big difference, imho :hi:

peace

[SahaleArm]

3. Go to any major univeristy and look at the make up of it's Masters+Phd's

Over 50% are from outside the US and when they leave would you rather they contribute to our economy or go back home and kick our ass?

[bpilgrim]

5. hommie... it's called a race to the bottom

PROFIT over EVERYTHING if you want to keep it simple.

:hi:

peace

[SahaleArm]

6. No they are taking well paying jobs.

There's no race to the bottom if we invest in education. That takes time and money, are Americans willing to invest 5-6 years in education to get better paying jobs? Can you name me which software companies are outsourcing product development?

[bpilgrim]

15. from HERE and downsizing them over there

peace

[SahaleArm]

19. A majority of H1-B's get American citizenship *nm*

[gulliver]

8. False choice.

Take a foreign PhD in Comp. Sci. who earns their degree in this country.

First, they are fairly worthless coming out of college. If they went home, they would have an extremely hard time gearing up a successful IT infrastructure. They would make mistake after mistake, choose the wrong tools, the wrong people, the wrong business associates, etc. In short, they would have to do what anyone needs to do in the school of hard knocks, gain experience over time. And time is what we are talking about here.

Software changes so fast that the very subjects for which people received their Masters and Doctorate degrees only a few years ago are now borderline obsolete. Keeping ahead of the power curve in software means connecting with an infrastructure (a job in a successful IT company) and learning it deeply.

I am not against brain-draining India except on grounds that it hurts India. Indian (and other) PhDs are obviously welcome in this country. What I have a problem with is training them to take our hard-won (and America advantaging) software knowhow out of the country on the basis of visa abuse.

If the American democracy determines that exporting its software (and by extension) business advantage out of the country, the democracy should create a GIAA (give it all away) visa. They haven't. Instead, that's what businesses are using the H-1B and L-1 for.

[SahaleArm]

11. Name me a software company that's exporting R&D jobs? *nm*

[gulliver]

14. Covansys

Covansys supplies large numbers of foreign IT contractors in this country and also does outsourcing to India and other countries. In other words, they arguably represent a business model based on the very factor I am talking about -- abusing American work visas to promote an outsourcing strategy.

www.covansys.com/

I would argue that any American IT person who does not observe this effect in their own lives is an exception.

[SahaleArm]

16. IT firms are not product development companies.

They are the service sector of high-tech, that India is taking high-tech McJobs is not surprising. Over 50% of US IT 'developers' don't have CS or EE degress. When Microsoft, Oracle, and Cisco start outsourcing R&D I'll be worried.

[gulliver]

18. What about insurance, telecom, and financial sectors?

You seem to have a very narrow view of what constitutes product development. We aren't talking McJobs when a foreign company supplies all of the developers for a major internal telecom or financial support application project. Those contractors are going to learn the full infrastructure of the company they work for. Indeed, they are eager to do so. And it is not mere "web monkeying" as some have called it.

I will grant you that deeper product development (whether the product is commercial or internal) is probably likely to fail if outsourced. But my point is that America should not be deliberately doing things to make oursourcing work better. Let outsourcing continue to flourish, but let it do so within the spirit and letter of correctly enforced American visa laws.

As I say, just obey the laws as they were intended and all will be well. It is the abuse (not use) of the visa system that is creating these dislocations, IMO.

[SahaleArm]

21. Same argument when car manufacturers left in the 70's and 80's

You can't stop them from leaving. Europeans have also lost these quality high-tech Mcjobs and they don't seem to be fretting. We have become a country of entitlers, that jobs are magically created by some higher force. We are losing the battle of higher-ed, 50% US masters and phds canidates are foreigners. What were people doing before there was no 'IT' industry? R&D is the only thing that will bring us out, protectionism is dead.

[gulliver]

22. Can't remember any H-1Bs and L-1s being brought in ...

... to build cars. Remind me when that happened. ;-)

I'm not talking about outsourcing itself. I am arguing that the real danger is in abusing L-1s and H-1Bs to hasten outsourcing.

[SahaleArm]

23. Read my comment below about undereducation *nm*

[gulliver]

24. Did. It is not responsive to my point above. n/t

.

[SahaleArm]

26. We would be worse off by sending the well-educated back home.

The H1-B boogeyman aside; I'm willing to give up a few jobs for a better-educated, harder-working populace. H1-B's are tiny compared to the outsourcing market.

[TexasPatriot]

4. But...

so many of the H1-Bs STAY in America... have kids here, raise families... pay taxes... send kids to public schools... hell, bringing the best and brightest from the rest of the world to this country is a GOOD thing for this country.

I've met and worked with many H1-Bs over the years - and they may start off thinking about going back but, by and large, they dont do it. They end up loving this place.

[SahaleArm]

7. Liberals can be Xenophobes too. *nm*

[gulliver]

10. Think you may have missed my point. n/t

n/t

[gulliver]

9. Good point.

I personally am all for H-1Bs here for legitimate H-1B reasons staying in this country. That is good for America. (I might point out that it is bad for the countries they leave, but so be it.)

The L-1, however, does not result in a brain drain to America. Quite the opposite. And H-1B should not be used apart from its intended purpose, to bring in needed skills to the advantage of American business.

But neither of these programs were intended to short-sightedly ship American advantage out of the country. The use for that purpose is simply abuse.

[SahaleArm]

12. There's a vast level of underqualification in America

I'm not talking about call centers or certificate developers. Product development jobs that require fundimental understanding of hardware and software; from gated logic, to microcontrollers, through OS design. Those need to be and are filled by CS/EE majors from across America. Unfortunately over 50% of those people are not Americans and require H1-B's.

[KittyWampus]

13. Thanks, I Have Alot Of Learning To Do

Regarding Economic Theory and Trade Policy... and Information Technology.

Sounds like some people are really hurting.

The Green Revolution is just around the corner.

[TXvote]

17. The real danger

is believing the hype you were told when you trained to work in high tech. Such as, you will always have a job.

High tech is inherantly designed to eliminate workers as it becomes more efficient. Inevitably, you are working yourself out of a job if you are designing software or developing technology. The corps only need you until the job is done.

The trick is to be developing a network and transferrable skills.

If we were not all so scared silly about losing a job, we could be creating the NEXT thing instead of clinging to a shrinking industry. Unfortunately fear tends to destroy vision and hope for the future.

Sorry, the jobs are going, but face the facts, they are never coming back. So, the question is, what are you going to do instead?

I think all these wonderfully analytical and brilliant unemployed minds should relentlessly apply for federal jobs until you are running the gov. That is an industry that is not going to disappear in the near future. And they could use your help.

Peace,
Teresa
www.votervirgin.com

[gulliver]

20. Actually no.

I just believe that American visa laws should be enforced as written.

Don't be so defeatist about jobs. Every job is eventually obsolete. The only question is whether there is a humane timeframe. It is the responsibility of the United States Government to promote the general welfare, etc. Therefore, it is the responsibility of the United States government to work to the advantage of its citizens within the bounds of international ethics/fair play, IMO.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. Good post and thread. Thanks

I agree Clark made a gaffe, and it was a simple one. Clark did not dispute that the software industry will grow in India over the next 10 years. He is right. It will, regardless of U.S. economic policies. He was trying to express optimism in the U.S. economy and our people. C'mon, you know the tune: "This is America, we are the greatest nation on earth, we can do anything we set our minds and hearts to." His off hand comment "Let India write the software" was just that, an off hand comment, and a show of Bravado. Kind of like someone saying, when they are told that the neighbors are spying, "let them talk!" Clark went on to praise our scientists and our ability to innovate etc etc. But before that, he spoke of taking away the incentives for companies to outsource jobs, and of developing a tax code that rewards companies for keeping jobs in America and creating new ones. Clark wasn't proposing giving away an industry to India. Only so much can be said in 60 seconds, he may have tried to hit too many notes in one short answer.