Do Kerry and Gephardt realize how badly they are hurting the dems?

[CRYINGWOLFOWITZ]

Since my last post, EXCOMMUNICATE KERRY AND GEPHARDT was locked, I will try again. Do Kerry and Gephardt not realize what they are doing? Dean WILL be the nominee. There is nothing anyone can do to stop that. I support Clark, but this is a forgone conclusion. All these two are doing now is giving Rove ammunition to use against Dean, and therefore, all of us, next year. This isn't even a contest anymore, Dean will be the nominee. He is leading in all polls, he is raising 3 times as much as either of those two and more than anyone else. He is even campaigning already in general election swing states that wont be decisive in deciding the nominee. The base loves Dean too much. These two shot themselves in the foot with the Iraq vote, and PATRIOT vote. They were more concerned with doing what they though was politically wise, despite if they really agreed with that or not, and they are paying for it. They are doing NOTHING at this point other than helping Bush. Dems can't win by canalibizing each other!

[La_Serpiente]

1. Nobody has this election in the bag yet

There is over a month and a half till the Iowa caucusus. The nominee will not be decided on in November -- he/she will will be decided on in January. don't be savoring in victory yet.

Kind of polarizing posts you put up.

[slinkerwink]

2. how is Dean a forgone conclusion?

Honestly, as a Dean supporter, there's plenty of time between here and the Iowa and NH primaries for Clark to make up ground in NH, especially.

[_Jumper_]

6. California

Clark leads in California and if he wins there that alone would give him 1/5 of the delegates needed to win the nomination. This race is not over by any means.

[SammyWinstonJack]

3. I don't trust Dean

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. Can I borrow your crystal ball?

It's over two months before the first vote is cast, in case you haven't noticed. It's far from over.

[_Jumper_]

5. How many candidates did Dean attack?

He attacked everyone who did not support IWR-lite in one comment alone.

[annxburns]

7. Dean is not my favorite ....

... but he, hands down, has the best campaign. I don't know if he has it locked up yet but plenty of his supporters think it is a foregone conclusion. A lot of the talk on the Dean blog is about who should be VP. I think the media would love a Dean vs. Bush showdown. They are both becoming polarizing figures to moderates and heros to their base. Given how close this election will be that might be the way it goes and the winner will depend on who can GOTV. Bothers me because lately the DNC has SUCKED at that ....

Also I really think if Dean and Bush are the nominees - we will see a third party candidate. Just MHO.

[Scott Lee]

9. Biden/Lugar is anything but IWR lite.

There is a crucial provision in the B/L proposal that would have given the US something that has hammered it from day one of this stupid war - an internationl mandate and authorization.

That puts light years between B/L and IWR.

[AP]

20. 90% of the infighting at yesterday's debate was a direct result of Dean's

advertisment in Iowa attacking Gephardt.

Yet the original post in this thread accused Gep and Kerry of causing the problem? Right.

Why doesn't Dean tell us how he's going to solve America's problems rather than divide the Democrats on the IWR.

He's so angry at Republicans for "dividing us on race" etc. Well I'm tired him of dividing Democrats on IWR.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Kerry and Gephardt think they are entitled to the nomination

this is a disease common to people that have been in Congress for a long time.

[Scott Lee]

10. Right on the money. And that's why the statists hate Dean.

That's also why I support Dean. He is the only one who seems ready willing and anxious to smash this stagnate DNC establishment.

[CRYINGWOLFOWITZ]

12. agreed, the DNC needs to be gutted and overhauled

The DNC was partly responsible for the loss in 2002. Their strategies sucked and their tacitics didn't work. The DNC needs to be retrofitted and replaced with people who know how to win elections.

[blm]

16. CATO Institute's favorite Democrat Dean?

You really have no clue that centrist Dean is putting on the cloak of fighting populist to get the nomination, but NEVER governed as a fighting populist. He governed his entire career as a GOP asskissing centrist.

You trust the CATO Institute's favorite Democrat? CATO is one of the groups responsible for this Medicare bill and every other deregulation scam that BushInc. is pushing.

[Scott Lee]

17. I know what CATO is, and you're lying about Dean. Again.

Dean never ran nor won his governorship as a Republican (why you choose to lie so blatantly on this one is beyond me, you must be getting desparate). Overhauling the health care availability to the benefit of Vermonters is not what you can call "centrist", let alone "GOP" (lie number two).

The fact that some in the CATO institute might like a few of Deans positions is not necessarily a good reason to dismiss Dean on the whole. Look here on DU, and you will occassionally find "democrats" who hate Bush yet support the war in Iraq. You'll find democrats who hate Bush yet love the idea of imposing American big business on other nations. Life isn't so black and white. It's a mixed bag that sometimes defies description.

But one thing is black and white - the kneejerk attacks against Dean just because, from the same handful of people here at DU. I can set my watch by them.

[blm]

18. Try believing the fact that WE DON'T TRUST DEAN.

Because he has given us REASON to distrust him. Dean is the one who is running differently than he governed. YOU are fooled. Some of us are NOT.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp
The Appeal of Howard Dean
by Stephen Moore
09/15/2003, Volume 009, Issue 01

SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.
>>>>>>
"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.
He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.
>>>>>>
The media have celebrated Dean's eclectic economic views. The Washington Post gushed on its front page: "As Governor, Dean Was a Fiscal Conservative." Business Week ap-plauds his pro-business credentials. Hammering George W. Bush almost hourly for his big deficits, Dean himself contends he is still an advocate of "fiscal stability" and a leader who will promote a balanced budget . . . "because I balanced my budget every year in Vermont."
>>>>>
But he weathered the storm. Dean is nothing if not a survivor--as well as an iconoclast. Even as he pursued wild-eyed social experiments, Dean carefully nurtured a reputation as a "business-friendly" governor. On numerous occasions he pragmatically swept aside onerous environmental regulations and last-use restrictions (this is the greenest state of all) to make room for business expansion and jobs, jobs, jobs. He supported electricity deregulation to take monopolistic pricing power away from big utilities. He even launched one of the nation's most progressive voucher programs for high school students.

>>>>>>>

[AP]

22. And who is Stephen Moore, the author of this article?

Is he some low-level Cato attendee? Is he a reporter?

From the article: Stephen Moore is president of the Club for Growth and a senior fellow at the Cato Institute

[blm]

25. He's a friend of Dean's. He also helped campaign against Democrats

in 2000 and 2002. Remember all the Clubs for GRowth ads that targeted Democrats. They also did ads for Bush's taxcy=uts.

Moore is a full on Bush operative.

[blm]

26. He's a friend of Dean's. He also helped campaign against Democrats

in 2000 and 2002. Remember all the Club for Growth ads that targeted Democratic incumbents?They also did ads for Bush's taxcuts.

Moore is a full on Bush operative.

[Scott Lee]

28. So let's get this straight....

Dean ravages Bush on everything from the economy to the war, but this magically transforms him into a "Bush enabler".

As a "Bush enabler", the GOP media machine is already trying to pick Dean apart. The GOP media, you know, that supports Bush. Attacking a "Bush enabler".

Yeah, that makes sense.

*cough*

[Scott Lee]

27. Who is "we"? You, yourself and you?

Or do you speak for all who don't support Dean at this point?

Did you win an election, or were you appointed spokeswhiner?

[JohnKleeb]

35. Its one of the reasons why I am admittingly iffy on him yes

[AP]

37. I'm part of that "we" too.

By the way.

[bhunt70]

11. I think I agree with you.

They brought the least to the table in the way of new ideas and I think its easier to believe them sitting on the fence for votes. (I tend to think this about Dean also at the moment)

[fabius]

13. Dean is responding very well.

In a way Gep and Kerry are "trainers". That could be a good thing.

Dean hasn't been hurt by any of the attacks, IMHO.

Whoever is the nominee I'd like to adopt some of the best things from all the candidates. I definitely like Gep and Kucinich's pro-labor commitment. I like Braun's unifying but uncompromising tone. Sharpton's aggressive humor. Kerry's energy policy. Edwards' populist message. Dean's straight talk and passion. Clark's cerebral competence. Lieberman's self-effacing humor.

They're all pretty good, don't you think?

[DrFunkenstein]

14. The Effect Of The "Washington Insiders" Smear?

How does that affect how people feel about their Democratic representatives in Congress? Dean's cockroach flashlight serves one person and one person only - Dean. Meanwhile he is continually putting EVERY OTHER Democrat in a bad light.

Secondly, you're sense of inevitability is amusing. The situation is EXTREMELY fluid and the campaigns are going into overdrive from here on out. There are going to be tons of ads and the race will take a very different tone as the reality of nominating someone against Bush takes hold of voters minds.

Thirdly, Dean said himself that he would have voted for the Patriot Act, and said some wild stuff at the time. Not to mention that a good majority of the Patriot Act is extremely beneficial for closing the intelligence gaps that led to 9/11 (which is why Dean won't call for a repeal).

So, I disagree with just about everything you've expressed, particularly your reversal of going after Dean vs. going after Dem Congressman.

[WilliamPitt]

15. Yeah, these primaries are a drag

[Padraig18]

19. Dean's nomination is not a foregone conclusion.

He is certainly the presumptive favorite, at this point, but 2 months is a lifetime in politics. Clark certainly has time to gain ground, and should not be counted out. Kerry, Edwards, Gephart, et al, have a much harder row to hoe, however...

[Octafish]

21. Wrong. Dean's the one hurting DEMs. The guy's a draft dodger.

Not only did the guy get out of the draft, he spent that winter SKIING in Vale, Colorado. Nice place, must be like Lourdes as Ho-Ho's back seems to have spontaneously recovered. Bet if he's the nominee, every voter will know the story of the miracle.

The Worst of Howard Dean
A troubling tale from his past. Is it true?

By William Saletan and Ben Jacobs
Posted Thursday, Aug. 28, 2003, at 8:15 AM PT

EXCERPT...

Charge: In 1971, Dean, who had been a wrestling team captain in high school, received a draft deferment for an unfused vertebra in his back. In the Aug. 15, 2002, Aspen Times, Dean said he "skied 80 days" in Aspen during the winter of 1971-72. The Times reported that Dean "loved skiing bumps," otherwise known as moguls. (Some health publications note that moguls can put particular stress on the spine.) "It was a great time to be a kid and do something relatively fun," Dean recalled. He added that he also worked that year "pouring concrete." Time reported on Aug. 11, 2003, that Dean spent the year "skiing and bumming around. … He hit the slopes, tried pot, washed dishes, poured concrete and drank impressive amounts of beer." On June 22, 2003, Tim Russert asked Dean on Meet the Press, "Why were you able to ski on Ajax Mountain, pounding your back, and pouring concrete, and not serve in the military?"

Defense: Dean told Russert, "I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I've had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise a vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. … After the physical, I received a 1-Y deferment, means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn't have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. … The United States government said this is your classification. I'm not responsible for that."

In the May 25, 2003, Washington Post, Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi, said, " view is, 'Look, I went in, got a physical and was rejected, and then I went on with my life.' "

SOURCE:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087543/

[Scott Lee]

30. Lie. Dean never dodged the draft.

No matter how many times you repeat this disproven antiDean meme, it won't make it true.

[Octafish]

39. Dean himself admitted he dodged the Draft.

I'm no liar. I don't even call liars "liar," see, Mr. Know-It-All:

Democrat contender admits 'dodging the draft'

By David Rennie in Washington
(Filed: 24/11/2003)

Howard Dean, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, has admitted dodging the Vietnam draft, obtaining a medical deferment for a back condition and then spending 10 months skiing.

Asked if he could have served 33 years ago despite his back condition, Dr Dean told the New York Times: "I guess that's probably true. I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

Dr Dean's candour may not have been wholly voluntary. With his campaign under intense scrutiny from Democratic rivals, it was only a matter of time before attacks focused on his remarkable recovery from spondylolesthesis, a painful condition caused by a misalignment of the spine.

The condition was diagnosed while Dr Dean was a teenager, and the candidate says he still suffers from occasional back pain. He insisted that skiing did not bring on the condition, but that running did.

CONTINUED...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/24/wdean24.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/11/24/ixnewstop.html

[mrgorth]

32. You're right

he should've swam to 'nam with a m-16 in his teeth. He didn't have to go to war. Good for him. He went skiing. Also good for him. If you want military experience, fine. Dean's not a draft dodger. The army didn't want him.

[Octafish]

41. Interesting imagery. The thing is Dean is a coward.

If nominated to be the Democratic candidate, I believe, Dean would lead the nation's Democrats to a historic loss. Rove will paint Dean as a draft-dodging abortionist liberal. Of all of these, politically, draft-dodger is the worst. Here's the reason:

Rove will paint Dean as a failure far as a Commander-in-Chief. While I'd still vote for Dean, Roverer would connect with many voters because they, like me, want someone who's been tested under fire themselves as President.

Combat, more than any other of humanity's experiences, separates the courageous from the cowardly. I don't want a coward being brave with my family members' lives during a national emergency or a war.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oasis]

24. Kerry is a scrapper, as one would expect a decorated war hero to be.

Candidates or their followers who are too weak in the knees to withstand the heat of political battle should withdraw.

[WhosNext]

29. Of course Dean will be the nominee, the insiders want Republicans in power

Best way to keep GWBush in power? NOMINATE DEAN

[genius]

31. If Dean's the nominee, there is no hope for the Democratic Party

The idea of Bush running against a Bush clone is enough to make thinking Democrats sick. Kerry, Gephardt, Clark, Kucinich, Sharpton, Moseley-Braun, Lieberman are all better than Bush or Dean will ever be. I hope our party nominates a Democrat. But with all the Republicrats supporting Dean, America may have a one party system after next year.

[democratreformed]

33. I usually don't go negative

but the arrogance that is apparent in the title to this post amazes me. I think it is up to America to decide - not you. And, do you really think that Rove needs any help coming up with crap against ANY of the candidates?

Yes, I believe that it is up to the American people to decide who is not worthy (at the polls). It is not up to one person (or even small group of people) to decide who is a worthy candidate and who is not.

[okieinpain]

34. this is why dems are in the minority

.

[JohnKleeb]

36. Excommunicate? this aint the Catholic Church

Get back to me after a primary then tell me Dean has it all but officially locked up. It's easy to oppose Kerry or Gephardt on the patriot act and prefer Dean or Clark when they didnt vote for them yet there's a candiate out there who voted no to both of them, yet hes unelectable :shrug:.

[LeahMira]

38. I imagine they know...

... how badly they are hurting Dean. Or at least they hope they are. See, they want to get the nomination and they don't want Dean to get it. It's that simple.

Dean is not the Democratic party. I respect that many like him, but others have other preferences. So what is this... you're either with Dean or you're with the Republicans? Hmmmm..............

After the nomination is a done deal, they will support the Democratic candidate with all they have. So... will Dean? Will you all?

[AmericanDem]

40. Gephardt is getting too much crap

The guy doesn't deserve it! This guy has worked his tail off for the average hard working folk all of his life. You want a winning ticket Clark/Gephardt will get things done and done right!