9/11 Report: change anyone's mind re: MIHOP/LIHOP?

[knowledgeispower]

Okay, for those who don't know, there are basically three "camps" when it comes to the events of September 11th. The first group believes that, more or less, events transpired exactly as the "official story" reports them. A second group, the LIHOP (Let It Happen On Purpose) group, believes that the Bush Administration KNEW that the 9/11 attacks were going to happen, but purposefully did nothing to stop them. A third group, MIHOP (Made It Happen On Purpose), believes that the Bush Administration (or CIA, NSA, whatever) took action to make September 11th happen.

So, after the report has been released, has anyone changed their minds? Personally, I felt it was LIHOP before and this report only strengthens my convictions. All the deleted parts seem to refer to the Saudi government, which has been linked, at least financially, to the Bush family.

Another question for LIHOP/MIHOPpers: why no references to the Pakistani's? Many 9/11 conspiracy theories have to do with the Pakistani ISI aiding the hijackers on behalf of the Bush Administration. But nothing about Pakistan was in the report at all. Just a smokescreen? Or is that just a tinfoil conspiracy?

[laruemtt]

1. i'm even more firmly MIHOP than

i was before. the lies are oozing out of their pores now. it's like being able to see auras - whenever i look at these people that's what i see - that and pure evil. i feel like i must be living on another planet everytime one of the freepers or just any old run of the mill idiot tries to support these demons.

[lcordero]

2. I'm leaning towards MIHOP more and more everyday

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1550366.stm

[knowledgeispower]

5. Afghanistan, Iraq, Patriot Act...all planned before 9/11

But the question remains: did the Bush administration simply take advantage of an act that was being planned by LETTING it happen without interference, or did they actively MAKE it happen? MIHOP just seems too insane for me, but then again some things (like Operation Northwoods) just blows the mind.

[hang a left]

3. I am so happy I now know

what lihop and mihop means. It is hard being the new kid. I was a li before the report and I'm a li after. It is great to belong.

[5thGenDemocrat]

29. It is great to belong

Yes, it surely is. Welcome to DU, lib.
John
And it's greater on some days than on others.

ON EDIT: Oh, yeah -- I'm a LIHOPer, just even more certain now than ever.

[hang a left]

31. Thank you John

[CafeToad]

38. Just in case this liink is helpful to anyone else

Check out:

http://dug.seattleactivist.org/

It'll tell you information like what LIHOP is and who tweety, pickles, etc are.

Quite helpful indeed.

[lkinsale]

4. What if there are references to Pakistan?

In the censored part? Why does everyone assume it's Saudi Arabia that's been blacked out? Or Saudi alone?

It' been censored so that we won't know.

I'm in the 4th group LIHOLAI (Let It Happen Out of Lazy Arrogant Incompetence). I think Bush was just cutting brush on his fake lil ol ranch and couldn't be bothered.

[knowledgeispower]

7. Ignorance or cunning

Look at what the Bush administration has been able to do since 9/11. As I posted above, the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, and the Patriot Act were all planned WELL before 9/11. But none of those things would have been possible for Bush without 9/11. The public and the world would not have supported the war in Afghanistan, and they would have been even more against the war in Iraq.

So was Bush just really fucking lucky, or did he do a little something to make luck happen for him?

[lkinsale]

14. What's that old saying?

Never assume malice when plain old incompetence will do?

Or something like that.

Sorry, I don't think Bush and cronies are all-powerful supervillains. I think they have been lucky, have become arrogant, and like many before them, their run of luck is coming to an end.

[knowledgeispower]

15. Like Nixon and Watergate?

I would certainly attribute THAT to malice over luck. And that was a quarter of a century ago. Just think about what his predecessors must be capable of.

[lkinsale]

22. Watergate is orders of magnitude smaller an operation than 9/11

No, it doesn't make me feel any better, cause incompetence puts us equally at risk, but I'm not gonna buy this tin-foil hat, thanks. I'll let al-Jazeera handle that theory.

[Zero Gravitas]

20. Napoleon said

"Never attribute to malevolence that which can easily be attributed to incompetence"

excpet presumably he said it in French ;)

[WillyT]

6. Nope, Still A LIHOPer Here !!!

It's the same old story (ie. Iran-Contra): Either TOTAL Incompetence, or TOTAL Criminality!

The best the BFEE can hope for, is to be seen as the most incompetent administration in U.S. History. Hell, they seem to be making their case for that each and every day.

That's why I maintain it IS Lihop. Why would one go to the trouble of looking like total bumbling fools, if not to hide the "Dark Players, Playing Dangerous Games"?????????

:shrug:

[SpiralHawk]

8. Report confirmed my LIHOP view

But I have to admit, when I explore the MIHOP potentials and clues, my blood runs cold. It's just too ugly a notion for me to embrace, so I wind up backing away to LIHOPville.

I think I would have a lot of trouble handling MIHOP if it were proven true. Gack. What, one wonder, about Mr. and Mrs. Faux news digester? Would they be able to cope at all ?

[knowledgeispower]

10. I agree completely re:MIHOP

It seems entirely possible, and I do not doubt the criminality of this administration. But actually going as far to murder 3,000 Americans? If they were ever caught all hell would break loose. It would shake people's faith not only in the Bush administration (obviously) but the U.S. system of government as a whole. Imagine if an administration were actually able to perpetrate a thing like 9/11. Scary.

[laruemtt]

11. SpiralHawk - love that name!

MIHOPing had me almost going loco before we went on vacation up to the mountains for a week last week - NO TV, NO phone, just crystal clear water, mountain biking and hiking. really cleaned my head out so i can face the MIHOPness of it all from a base of clarity. i really was losing it before, though.

[TahitiNut]

13. As a Proud Original Member of the Grassy Knoll Society

I agree fully with your viewpoint. It is mine as well.

[KYDEM]

28. Why does everyone believe Bush and Co.

about how evil Saddam and sons were the terrible way the tortured and killed people but can not believe Bush and Co. are evil enough to have let 9/11 happened or planned it? Look what they have been able to accomplish because of it. Look how they lied and let thousands of people, some children, in this needless war for profit. Explain why you cannot believe in LIHOP or MIHOP?

[judy]

9. LIHOP makes absolutely no doubt in my mind...

The report doesn't particularly suggest MIHOP to me.

What does suggest it more, though, is the total suppression of Moussaoui and the Secret Military tribunals for people that would be great to try publicly to support the image of Smirky as the Righteous arm of God.
AND, if you read the 9/11 report, and THEN go back a few months to Agent Crowley's original complaint, then MIHOP starts becoming more and more plausible.

[diamond14]

12. did they ask about bush* $43 million in aid to osama's taliban

provided in May 2001 ?

That might be a big clue...lots of people screamed about it when bush* did it...

here's Robert Sheer's editorial in the Los Angeles times, May 22, 2001, four months before the 9/11/01 attacks...

http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/01_columns/052201.htm

-snips-

Bush's Faustian Deal With the Taliban

That's the message sent with the recent gift of $43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the most virulent anti-American violators of human rights in the world today. The gift, announced last Thursday by Secretary of State Colin Powell, in addition to other recent aid, makes the U.S. the main sponsor of the Taliban and rewards that "rogue regime" for declaring that opium growing is against the will of God. So, too, by the Taliban's estimation, are most human activities, but it's the ban on drugs that catches this administration's attention.

Never mind that Osama bin Laden still operates the leading anti-American terror operation from his base in Afghanistan, from which, among other crimes, he launched two bloody attacks on American embassies in Africa in 1998.

Sadly, the Bush administration is cozying up to the Taliban regime at a time when the United Nations, at U.S. insistence, imposes sanctions on Afghanistan because the Kabul government will not turn over Bin Laden.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

16. LIHOP . . . bastard!!!

The blood of 3,000 innocent victims is on his hands.

[Abe Linkman]

17. MIHOP doesn't necessarily mean intent to murder 3,000 people

The Administration's supporters want to make it seem absurd that anyone would think that our own government would be involved in 9/11. One technique is to promote the idea that no matter how "crazy" this Administration is, they would have to be totally crazy to "murder" 3,000 Americans.

That is a very cunning line to take, but while there is plenty of reason to suspect our own government supported the attacks, that doesn't mean the plan was for 3,000 people to be murdered. Although, anyone who knows much about our history (or just recent current events going back 10 years) shouldn't be surprised at what "they" are willing to subject us (and others)to.

[diamond14]

21. the buildings collapsing was unexpected, but IMHO, it's clearly

MIHOP....bush* and his minions certainly encouraged the terrorists in every way...much like the 9/11 families, there are just too many coincidences to call it just "luck"....over, over, and over again failures of bush* employees to stop it or even respond and many active efforts to deter those who tried to stop it (like the FBI agent from Minnesota)...

[alaine]

32. That's the kicker for me right there...

Has anyone estimated what the fatalities would be if the buildings had not collapsed? It is so AMERICAN that they did. Gotta love that cutting corners capitalism. Keeping this in mind I could see MIHOP, plus the fact that they haven't gotten Osama, yet daddy flew his family out of the country right after the attacks. Was this a deal? The U.S. will pretend-pursue him, pull out of Saudi Arabia and blame Clinton for not killing him when he had the chance?

[Zero Gravitas]

18. I'm convinced it is LIHTI

They Let It Happen Through Incompetence.

How anyone can think that this motley crew of imcompetent fools could fake a terrorist attack like 9/11 is beyond me.

[Bushknew]

19. You can’t be a little bit pregnant / Unbelievable Evidence

Unbelievable Evidence

1. The "evidence" that a passport survived a plane explosion and tons of concrete falling upon it (and was recovered so soon after the attack, THE NEXT DAY!) is unbelievable.

<<On Sept. 12 ABCNEWS sources identify another hijacker as Satam Suqami, a Saudi national on American Airlines Flight 11, whose passport was recovered in the rubble.>>

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_MAIN010912.html

2.The "evidence" presented by US Attorney General John Ashcroft of a four-page handwritten letter having survived the plane explosion at the WTC AND at the Pennsylvania crash site is unbelievable.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/28/archive/main312898.shtml

3. The religious items of the hijackers found by Chief Master Sergeant John Monaccio is unbelievable considering how little of the 757 was left at the Pentagon.

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/pentagon/pentagon-email_20020316.html

Which conspiracy theory is more plausible …

A. Within one hour and forty minutes, Arab terrorists (with box cutters) were able to fly 3 commercial planes into US buildings and defeat the security of the Air Force, FBI, CIA and NSA or …

B. 911 was an inside job.

You can’t be a little bit pregnant / MIHOP!!!!!

[Athame]

37. Well said. If LIHOP then MIHOP

is basically what I believe. Most I see who cannot get to MIHOP from the evidence are just unable to accept the awfulness of it.

How could terrorists count on the failure of NORAD in all four planes? Especially the Pentagon flight 77 that rambled around for a long time before heading back to Washington--and Rumsfeld says he was not informed? He was in a meeting? Give me a break! The video of shrub* after Card whispers in his ear is damning enough, but the AF1 flight after with no escort, the discrepancies in the stories about the orders re the Pennsylvania shootdown order, the weird stops in Louisiana and Nebraska---I can believe that things did not go quite as planned and they had to improvise with shrub*s itinerary, but the outcome was too important to the cabal to leave anything to chance. Cheney and Poppy were in the WH that morning calling the shots, junior was just kept safely out of the way under the care of his little brother in Florida. Powell was in South America and the plans for Afghanistan invasion were ready, as well as the draft of USA PATRIOT ACT. NORAD was doing a training that morning of airplanes flying into buildings...the FBI raided the flight schools within hours of the attacks and published the names and photos of the hijackers, several of whom have been shown to be still alive (one died on September 11, 2000)--though the FBI has never changed their list. Then we have the whole John O'Neill/Jerome Hauer/anthrax/Cipro mystery...

It could only be MIHOP. The report is a smokescreen.

[DemoTex]

23. LIHOP, ergo, de facto MIHOP

With the power the Bu$h Regime wields, these criminals could not "let it happen" without, de facto, "making it happen." If I am on Bu$h's jury, I will assume MIHOP.

[peacetalksforall]

24. We need to know more about ground or air

remote guidance systems.

We need to know more about the put options.

We need to know why the air force wasn't scrambled.

We need to know if executives of corporations located in the towers were flown to Nebraska for a breakfast with Buffet.

We need irrefutable proof that our people talked with their people (Saudi's and Pakistani's) about pay offs for this act.

We need to know why government employees were shunned, even laughted at.

We need to see photos of the aircraft, particularly the Pentagon aircraft, and hear the aircraft recordings of all the conversations between conrol towers, (especially) between towers and aircraft, between flight crews and home bases, between passengers and survivors.

We need to know the money path.

We'll probably never know the last two - SO bring it all on and I'll be willing to believe the worst because it would be brought to us by 'The Despicables!.

[DemoTex]

25. How about FEMA showing up in NYC a day early? 9/10. n/t

[JackSwift]

26. They stood down in hopes of

a Pearl Harbor. The PNAC white paper advocates it, the evidence strongly supports that view. It happened, and they capitalized on it exactly as PNAC advocated before the dust settled at WTC or the Pentagon.

The Pentagon is going to be beyond rage when they finally figure out how badly they were betrayed.

I wish I could say that these lazy bastards were just so stupid and dumb and lazy and incompetent that they thought they would muddle through. That is what the general public is willing to believe.

[cheapbeemr]

27. Isn't the extent of Saudi support something of a new wrinkle?

The item on the Saudi agent meeting with two of the hijackers, and driving them to San Diego, etc., I mean, what the Hell?

I mean, if you really want a MIHOP scenario (I've always believed at least in LIHOP) - then consider: the Saudis created al Qaeda in the first place at the behest of the Reagan/Bush administration in order to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, so maybe that line of command and control has remained intact - Bush family-Saudi Royals-al Qaeda, with the al Qaeda soldiers on the bottom, like all soldiers, not knowing who's pulling the strings on top. I mean, it's purely evil, but then what in this administration hasn't been?

[KYDEM]

30. What was the explaination for the

WTC building 7 coming down? How far from buildings 1 and 2 is building 7? They explained there were just a few planes ready to intercept on Sept. 11 does that mean another country could have easily have flew over the city and dropped a nuclear bomb? I did not learn until 10:00 that morning about the attacks, the girl who house I was at got a phone call and said for me to hurry turn on the T.V. we are under attack I said, "What do you mean we are under attack?" and as I watched the replaying of the buildings being hit I said "Where in the hell is the Airforce?" I have believed that Bush and Co. was envoled someway either LIHOP or MIHOP from that moment.

[jiacinto]

33. Neither of these options describes me

I think that Bush et al had information that something might happen and they didn't take it seriously enough. But I am not in the LIHOP or the MIHOP camp.

[bpilgrim]

35. how do you account for their responce as the 'event' unfolded

gross incompitence across the board?

or whatever the official line is :shrug: i hope it is explained in the report.

peace

[baffie]

34. Still MIHOP, IMHO

[leftofthedial]

36. was firmly LIHOP

Now believe MIHOP is the most reasonable explanation for the few facts we know.

Haven't read every word of the report yet though.