Kucinich's open letter to Nader voters and the Greens

[blm]

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0724-08.htm
Published on Thursday, July 24, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
Open Letter to Nader Voters and the Greens
by Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich

When we marched against the WTO and the corporate trade regime in Seattle in 1999, we marched together.

When we stood together against the war with Iraq, half-a-million strong in New York City, and 15 million strong throughout the world, we stood together.
When we fought the badly-named "Patriot Act," we fought it together -- and I was the only one running who voted against it.

When we tried to stop this war from starting, we fought it together -- and I was able to pull together 126 of my colleagues to vote no to war last fall, working with my friend and ally Barbara Lee, as Co-Chairs of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

We stand together in opposition to the death penalty; in support of living wages; in support of boosting alternative energy rather than wars for oil; in support of medicinal marijuana; in opposition to corporate hog farming; in support of organic farming; in opposition to nukes in space; in opposition to Star Wars; in support of cutting the military budget by 15% and applying those funds to public education.

We stand together for national health insurance, Canadian style. We stand together on public financing of campaigns, on same day voter registration, on instant runoff voting. We stand together on civil rights, and equal rights, and human rights. We stand together on voting reforms for ex-felons. We stand together on ending the trade and travel embargoes on Cuba. We stand together in opposition to the current war on drugs, which is all too often a war on the urban poor.

We stand together in demanding that publicly-owned clean water is a human right. We stand together in demanding that the developing world's debt be forgiven, as if it were still the Jubilee Year; and that we act seriously to build a world in which arms sales decline, hunger declines, poverty declines, and human rights increase.

We stand together on rejoining the rest of the world, and signing the Kyoto Treaty, the International Criminal Court Treaty, the Land Mines Ban Treaty, and all the rest of the treaties and agreements and working relationships that the current Administration has so cavalierly tossed aside.

We stand together in opposition to excessive CEO salaries; in opposition to offshore tax havens for corporations; in support of real pension reforms, real SEC enforcement, real crackdowns on corporate scofflaws. And we stand together in opposition to sweetheart deals for corporate friends of this Administration, whether it's Enron wrecking California for profit, the drug companies ripping off seniors and HIV patients and poor people for profit, or Halliburton ripping off Iraqi oil revenues for profit.

I am a Democrat, but I understand that Greens and Nader voters are not just liberal Democrats. Still, I note that in Europe, even when political parties disagree on issues, they are often able to work together with each other in coalition. I'd like to raise that possibility again today. And I note that Ralph Nader has suggested that my candidacy is worth supporting.

We all know we will do better if we work together. Perhaps we can find common ground on issues and principles. I would like to open up that possibility. And I would like to ask that you give serious consideration to my candidacy for President. Because a better world is still possible.

Rep. Kucinich is a presidential candidate and co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

[LiberalLibra]

1. This is a great letter. Now we wait for Nader's response......

....a united Dem/Green front against Bush, that would send a HUGE message to reTHUGs.

[jpgray]

2. Nader won't do it

He's in love with the German Communist Party strategy in 1932.

[JVS]

3. I've had enough of your cracks at the KPD!!!

The SPD killed off (literally) the left wing of its own party in an alliance with German nationalists in 1919. Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebknecht, who had broken ranks with the SPD to vote against War Credits in 1914 (in other words were anti-war) were shot by militiamen fighting for the SPD and chucked in a canal. The SPD went on to set up the dismal Weimar republic which not only was despised by most Germans, but also retained Judges, civil servants, and a military that were from Imperial times and ambivalent towards the republic at best. The SPD believed that they could build socialism without a revolution, and their failure to join the USPD/KPD was why the counter-revolution (Nazis) destroyed German progressive politics. They antagonized the bourgeoisie without actually stripping them of any power, and that is why the Nazis came to power.

On edit: would you cooperate with the DLC if they assasinated all non-DLC candidates?

[LiberalLibra]

19. "I've had enough of your cracks at..." Lest we forget, this is .......

....still Democratic Underground, not FR or Nazi Germany where people can only express those views acceptable to a few. BTW, before you jump on me for being anti-Nader/anti-progressive read my comments in post #1. I think this open letter is a good idea and personally I hope it works, although I have my doubts. My only issue I am addressing with this particular post is that what you are tired of hearing others refer to as "free speech". True liberals love common sense and free speech exercised together, it's the neo cons who have the problem with free speech.

on edit: For clarification purposes, I actually like some of Kucinich's ideas it is Nader I have the problem with.

[JVS]

28. Dimestore German history is fair game for criticism

If people are going to come at me with cockamamie bull about how German Communists are to blame for Hitler, then I'm going to unload on them. The same way that (probably) anyone here would go off about someone claiming that the election of 2000 was not stolen by Bush. I don't care what your politics are, BS is BS. I don't see why the person to whom I responded sees a need to attack Communists from 70 years ago, but I'm not going to let it go without comment. I said I'm sick of hearing it and I'll let it be known that I am sick of hearing it. It is a smear of those who fought for freedom against fascism and it bugs the hell out of me. You and whoever have the right to say whatever you want, but if you pull out some tired old myth prepare to have it attacked.

[LiberalLibra]

47. BTW, what you consider to be a "tired old myth" is actually.....

....historical fact. Nazi Germany - leading up to Hilter's takeover - was horribly divided by numerous political parties and was the basis of Hilter's speech concerning "German unity". The neo cons have done much the same thing today in calling for "unity" against a convenient enemy. The political division we face today in trying to beat Bush is very reminisent of those times.

BTW, instead of using the phrase"...prepare to have it attacked." it might have been less polarizing to reword that to read, "...prepare to have it challenged". Unless, of course, the end goal is NOT to beat Bush at all costs and if that be the case I would suggest you might be at the wrong message board.

[JVS]

58. It is a Myth

Go to this

page:http://europeanhistory.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vwc.edu%2Flibrary_tech%2Fwwwpages%2Fdgraf%2Fweim.htm

Click the link and look at the totals of KPD and SPD delegates to the Reichstag. Count USPD too because they dissolved joined the KPD for the most part when the split became permanent. The KPD and the SPD combined never reach 50%. A reigning coallition of KPD and SPD was not possible. In fact, it would have scared some of the parties that the SPD was able to join for coallitions away.

In the long run it didn't matter much because the majority of Germans viewed the SPD as a threat to their way of life. Even after the war the SPD had a difficult time getting above 35% (against weak, brand new parties by the way) of the electorate to vote for them and was only able to do better than that after the changes in the Parteiprogramm of Bad Godesberg in 1959, in which the SPD officially renounced Marxism. Their first coallition government was formed in 1966 when they helped to make former Nazi Kurt Kiesinger chancellor.

Not only that, but to act as though the KPD owed the SPD some kind of allegiance is incorrect. As I mentioned the SPD had leaders of the USPD/KPD killed.

By the way, I'd like to see this Hitler speech that laments disunity within German politics. I seriously doubt that he laments disunity among the left. To Hitler two parties were too much disunity and so were elections, or maybe he was sad that he has to herd several paries together to become Chancellor. For him the ideal was that the Germans would find their "destined" leader and forget about politics.

So if you still think that it is not a myth, please present evidence.

[LiberalLibra]

113. It's a myth only to a few with closed minds and a preset dogma

......

[jpgray]

60. You're missing the point

There was a group of similarly minded parties in Germany that all wanted to be the majority party. The strife between these parties contributed to Hitler's rise to power. I'm sorry if you thought I was singling out the KPD. They are by no means totally responsible for Hitler, just as Nader running won't make much difference in 2004.

[JVS]

63. The similarly minded parties were the right-wing parties

The German people did not support Democracy. It sucks, but it's true. The history of the SPD is essentially the history of German Democracy. The problem is that after becoming the largest party in 1912 with about 30% of the vote, they were stuck. Since the 1890's at the latest Germans were very solid voters. Turnout was high and party loyalty was fanatical. And nowhere was the loyalty higher than in the SPD; they got out the vote at all times. In fact, the SPD would benefit from bad weather on election days because they were coming out to vote come hell or high water. But when 95% of the population votes and you consistently get 30-35% there is nowhere to go. The SPD was scary to the German middle class and aristocracy. The parties of those classes collaborated to form "Anyone but the socialists" governments. The only reason that the SPD got ahold of the national government in the first place is that the German army had exhausted itself on the field in 1918 and they were the only ones willing to pick up the pieces. But they had no mandate, the Republic that they created was as illegitimate to most Germans (except for the 30%) as the U.S. sponsored "democratic" Government in Iraq will be to the Iraqis. Hitler's rise to power was based on mass hatred of the democratic government.

On edit: our situation in America is not as bleak. More than Half the population here supports democracy and I believe that even many of those who have voted Republican are not fully aware of their leaders' dark intentions and also support democracy. At least 60% of Americans support democracy by my estimate.

[jpgray]

64. Direct from Thalmann, sorry

"(To win the proletariat, the struggle of the German Communist Party) must be directed first of all against the two extremely important counter-revolutionary mass political parties, the German Social-Democratic Party and the National Socialist Workers Party (Nazis). But, even in this struggle, the main thrust of attack must be directed against the Social-Democratic Party. Moreover, it must be made clear to the masses if the popular influence of "moderate wing" of fascism, i.e. the Social-Democratic Party, is not first overcome, it will be impossible to fight against Hitler's party and government".

This is what Nader is doing.

edit: whoops, brackets are a no no, and a typo

[JVS]

65. The KPD didn't play electoral politics, they advocated violent revolution

So Thaelmann's goal would be to give the SPD a jolt towards revolution. And the SPD should have seen that it's attempt at peaceful revolution had failed. Here are two paragraphs from http://countrystudies.us/germany/36.htm

"Dissatisfaction with the republic was also evident in the June 1920 elections, in which the Weimar coalition lost its majority. A combined total vote of 28.9 percent for the DNVP, a descendant of the prewar Conservatives, and the DVP, composed mainly of National Liberals, reflected German middle-class disillusionment with democracy. Both parties wished to abolish the Weimar constitution. SPD strength fell to 21.7 percent, as some workers defected to the extreme left. The Independent Social Democratic Party of Germany, formed during the war, effectively ceased to exist as some members joined the KPD, formed in December 1918, and the remainder reunited with the SPD.

The Weimar coalition never regained its majority. Because no party ever gained as much as 50 percent of the vote, unstable coalition governments became the rule in the 1920s, and by the end of the decade more than a dozen governments had been formed, none capable of unified action on major problems. The SPD and the Center Party often could agree on questions of foreign policy, such as compliance with the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, but split on domestic issues. Conversely, the Center Party agreed with parties to its right on domestic issues but split with them on foreign policy. Thus, minority governments were formed that often showed little internal coherence during their brief lives."

Less than two years into the republic a government composed of people wishing to disolve the republic comes into power. This was an abject failure.

On edit: and one party favoring violent Revolution and another trying to support an ailing government can hardly be called like minded. So why should it be surprising that they were opposed to one another?

[jpgray]

66. It's more complicated

In the summer of 1929, the Executive Committee of the Communist International (ECCI) presented the following:

"In Germany we have a new experiment of the largest party in the Second International, the German Social-Democratic Party, being in power. As a result of their own experiences the German workers are abandoning their illusions concerning the Social-Democratic Party. The Social-Democratic Party has revealed itself as the party which, on coming into office, has strangled the workers strikes with the noose of compulsory arbitration, has helped the capitalists to declare lockouts and liquidate the gains of the working class (eight-hour day, social insurance, etc.). By the construction of cruisers and by the adoption of its new militaristic programme, breaking with all the remnants of pre-war traditions of socialism, social-democracy is preparing the next war. The leading cadres of social-democracy and of the reformist trade unions, fulfilling the orders of the bourgeoisie, are now, through the mouth of Wels, threatening the German working class with open fascist dictatorship. Social-democracy prohibits May Day demonstrations. It shoots down unarmed workers during May Day demonstrations. It is the social-democracy who suppresses the labour press (Rote Fahne) and mass labour organizations, prepares the suppression of the CPG and organizes the crushing of the working class by fascist methods. This is the road of the coalition policy of the social-democracy leading to social-fascism. These are the results of the governing activities of the biggest party of the Second International." (The Communist International 1929-1943 Documents, pp. 45-6; Oxford University Press)

The KPD declared the SPD's admittedly reactionary and hopelessly bourgeois actions to be fascism, which they certainly were not. Reaction and fascism are not the same thing. It was easy to foster hatred for the SPD because of Noske/Schadler ordered assassinations you mentioned above. One of the most damning things about the KDP is their assertion that social-democracy, however reactionary, is fascism. This theory was something widely denounced by Communist parties around the world, unless we're talking Stalinists. For example in the Polish Communist Party they made a point to recognize the fundamental hostility betwqeen social-democracy and fascism, and that social-democracy had resisted it. The absurd equation of the two worked well in Germany, mainly because the gross reactionary nature of the SPD was so apparent.

Don't forget the KPD's running of Thalmann against Hindenburg in 1932, and how close that election was.

I still stand by my assertion. Nader believes the Democrats are the same as the Republicans. He believes that the greater danger is the Democrats, because with "Republican-lite" available, the Republicans will never go away. I still wait to hear how this is different from the KPD. Where did I say some coalition of the SPD and the KPD would defeat Hitler?

[JVS]

67. Your initial statement was very glib

So you didn't mention a coalition. Your statement does imply that the Greens should have taken some other strategy and thus also that the KPD should have. Your statement was loaded with historical implication and you know it. You did however directly refer to nader prefering a 1932 KPD strategy, which is false on two levels. 1) Nader and the Greens do not advocate the overthrow of the current government. and 2) The Greens and the Democrats through cooperation could elect a president. So your statement in post #2 is false, Green strategy is not KPD strategy. Your statement appears to lay blame at the feet of the KPD, which I deny. Also someone else chimed in, so not all statements made in this thread adress your comments exclusively.

I often hear comparisons between Greens and KPD thrown about and they are inaccurate, yet continue persistantly. I think that many people enjoy doing this for several reasons 1. They get to call Bush Hitler 2. They get to call the Greens Communists 3. Since they know most people don't like communists they think it sounds good 4. It absolves their own party of any guilt in the affair, because it is assumed that if you are fighting both communists and nazis you must be good.

I would agree that reaction and fascism are not the same thing, but this type of exaggeration is common in politics. For instance, if you search this forum you will find many assertions that "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush" this is patently untrue, yet it is spouted often and without much comment. Also one can reasonably contend that by trying to preserve a dysfunctional political system the SPD was putting itself and others at risk. Because the SPD was unwilling or unable to take action to prevent the hegemony of Germany's largely conservative political culture, they were essentially sitting around and waiting for someone to end the much despised republic.

It's late and I have to get up in a few hours, so I guess we can continue this some other time.

[Terwilliger]

85. so what you're saying is

it was the Democrats (whatever the equivalent party was in Germany...SPD?) who allowed Hitler's influence and standing to come to prominence, all because they couldn't figure out how to fight the fascist, capitalist, jingoist message that Hitler put out.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Your ignorance of history reflects badly on you!

If you are going to use pejoratives when referring to Nader, at least you should refrain from using historical analogies that bear little resemblance to facts.

While the Social-Democrats were appeasing the Nazis, as the DLC has appeased Bush, the KDP were the first to oppose the Nazis with many of its members dying at the hands of the Gestapo.

The main enemy is at home!

Karl Liebknecht

The Main Enemy Is At Home!
(Leaflet, May 1915)
Karl Liebknecht

What has been expected every day for the past ten months, since the Austrian invasion of Serbia, has come to pass: There is war with Italy.

The masses in the warring countries have begun to free themselves from the official webs of lies. The German people as well have gained insight about the causes and objectives of the world war, about who is directly responsible for its outbreak. The mad delusions about the "holy aims" of the war have given way more and more, the enthusiasm for the war has dwindled, the will for a rapid peace has grown powerfully all over – even in the Army!

This was a difficult problem for the German and Austrian imperialists, who were seeking in vain for salvation. Now it seems they have found it. Italy's intervention in the war should offer them a welcome opportunity to stir up new frenzies of national hatred, to smother the will for peace, and to blur the traces of their own guilt. They are betting on the forgetfulness of the German people, betting on their forbearance which has been tested all too often.

If this plan succeeds, the results of ten months of bloody experience will be made worthless, and the international proletariat will once again be disarmed and completely discarded as an independent political factor.

This plan must be wrecked – provided that the part of the German proletariat which has remained true to international socialism remains mindful and worthy of its historical mission in this monstrous time.

The enemies of the people are counting on the forgetfulness of the masses – we counter this with the solution:

Learn everything, don't forget anything!

http://www.marxists.org/archive/liebknecht-k/works/1915/05/main-enemy-home.htm

[jpgray]

59. Please read my response to JVS

And sorry for the original comment here, it looked a bit rude and I apologize. In the history I've read, the KPD thought the main enemy among the two counter-revolutionary parties was the SPD. That is what Nader believes. He believes that the "moderate wing of fascism" must be exposed to the public because it will never be effective.

Right? Where did I go wrong here? If you have some other information, let me know.

edit: first comment a bit rude, and second one needs clarification

[sangha]

81. Thanks jpgray

Despite your initial fumble, you've rallied and done a fine job of explaining how the irrelevant bickering over differences of ideology --and I call it irrelevant because the real issue was power, and not ideology-- contributed to Hitler's ability to take power.

[blm]

4. Special K kick.

.

[twilight]

5. I read these words and I know ...

I know that I am supporting the correct person for the job of President of United States of America!!!

Thank you DK!!

We THINK ALIKE!! :)

:kick:

[Belledragon]

6. twilight,

I'm with you. When DK speaks my heart feels hope.

[newyawker99]

7. blm

Per DU copyright rules
please post only 4
paragraphs from the
news source.

Thank you

NYer99
DU Moderator

[Terwilliger]

10. how does an open letter suffer from copyright?

this is one article that seems wholly unnecessary to cut

[IndianaGreen]

25. There is no copyright on an Open Letter published in Common Dreams

anymore that there is a copyright on a press release by a candidate.

From Common Dreams:

FAIR USE NOTICE

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.


http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0724-08.htm

[blm]

38. Thanks...

I got back to the thread too late to respond.

(Potty training two year old)

[JVS]

40. ...

I hope everything comes out alright.

:D

[newyawker99]

73. Please disregard this.

My error.....sorry.

NYer99
DU Moderator

[juajen]

62. That's what I call a uniter, not a divider

G O K U C I N I C H !!!!!!

[Sophree]

My conscience is swaying me

Dangit! I'm having a real ideological battle right now. The Green/idealist in me says to vote for Kucinich in the primaries. The pragmatist tells me to vote for Edwards.

Whatever I decide- I would hope that Greens support Kucinich, rather than a Green Party candidate for Prez.

[Clete]

8. If Kucinich can unite all the progressive factions

under one banner he's got my support.

[kysrsoze]

24. He's still not going to win (don't flame me - this is NOT an insult)

Don't get me wrong. I do like a LOT of what he says. I think he brings up very important issues. However, he's not going to garner the nomination. He's way too left to gain the nomination. Centrists will not support him. I'm sure he knows that and God bless him for running anyway. People need to hear what he has to say.

We need something in between though. My money is on Dean b/c he seems sensible and just conservative enough to sway voters. I have too much of a fear of the status quo with Kerry and would have to puke before I voted for Gephardt or Lieberman.

It'd be interesting to see who else is going to decide to run now that Weiner an Traficant have decided to run. They make Lyndon LaRouche look like a serious candidate.

[Clete]

29. He could be this election's McGovern.

Yet, if McGovern had won, imagine what the world could have been like?

[kysrsoze]

31. I really don't know much about McGovern - one of the few I don't know

What was the guy actually like?

[Armstead]

32. This is McGovern

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030421&s=mcgovern

article | Posted April 3, 2003
Th Nation


The Reason Why
by George McGovern

Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
--Alfred, Lord Tennyson
"The Charge of the Light Brigade"
(in the Crimean War)


Thanks to the most crudely partisan decision in the history of the Supreme Court, the nation has been given a President of painfully limited wisdom and compassion and lacking any sense of the nation's true greatness. Appearing to enjoy his role as Commander in Chief of the armed forces above all other functions of his office, and unchecked by a seemingly timid Congress, a compliant Supreme Court, a largely subservient press and a corrupt corporate plutocracy, George W. Bush has set the nation on a course for one-man rule.

He treads carelessly on the Bill of Rights, the United Nations and international law while creating a costly but largely useless new federal bureaucracy loosely called "Homeland Security." Meanwhile, such fundamental building blocks of national security as full employment and a strong labor movement are of no concern. The nearly $1.5 trillion tax giveaway, largely for the further enrichment of those already rich, will have to be made up by cutting government services and shifting a larger share of the tax burden to workers and the elderly. This President and his advisers know well how to get us involved in imperial crusades abroad while pillaging the ordinary American at home. The same families who are exploited by a rich man's government find their sons and daughters being called to war, as they were in Vietnam--but not the sons of the rich and well connected....

The invasion of Iraq and other costly wars now being planned in secret are fattening the ever-growing military-industrial complex of which President Eisenhower warned in his great farewell address. War profits are booming, as is the case in all wars. While young Americans die, profits go up. But our economy is not booming, and our stock market is not booming. Our wages and incomes are not booming. While waging a war against Iraq, the Bush Administration is waging another war against the well-being of America.

<snip>
MORE

[Clete]

33. Here's a website for his library.

http://www.mcgovernlibrary.com/george.htm

[Kenneth ken]

61. well

DK certainly won't win if people who say, "I like a lot of what he says...However..." - if you like what he says, support him!

If he doesn't win the nomination, then decide if you can vote for the nominee, but until someone is actually nominated, it would seem wisest to support the candidate who you like best, not the candidate you think someone else will like best.

[LWolf]

69. Exactly.

One of the reasons, IMHO, we are where we are today...people who have no hope and don't support the candidate they believe in. If DK doesn't win the nomination, I'll vote for whoever does. Meanwhile, I'm sticking with the dark horse. Longshots do win, and those who had confidence enough to place their bets win big.

[Mairead]

74. 'Centrists will not support him'

Right. That's because they're willing to sell us all down the river for the sake of their ignorant fantasies about power. They demand that we hold our noses and be sold because they refuse to hold their noses and be saved.

Sorry, that's lunacy. Give up the Dark Side, Luke.

[Blue_Chill]

75. Without Centrists you lose

Allow me to make this as clear as I can: IF THE DEMOCRATS (CENTERIST, CONSERVATIVE, AND LIBERL) DO NOT VOTE TOGETHER WE ALL LOSE.

ok?

I'm not asking that you accept Lieberman or anything of the sort, and I consider greens a lost cause, but if we are serious about winning in 04 we should be choosing a candidate most likely to appeal to all groups. Not just one of the three.

[buddhamama]

87. allow me to make this CLEAR

50% of the electorate doesn't vote.

in any given election repubs and DEMs each achieve at best 25% of the vote.

promoting this tired misconception that the we can only win by catering the center-right is false.

especially in this election year.

i will point out too, that the same people who run around here screaming ABB and no third party votes are the same individuals who are here putting DK down.

tell me Blue_Chill if the center-right won't vote for Kunicich who will they vote for?

and why should leftists within the party be held to a higher standard than the center-right who would vote Republican!(?)

edited for spelling and missing words

[Blue_Chill]

88. Your statement is clear....ly incorrect

promoting this tired misconception that the we can only win by catering the center-right is false.

Wrong. You cannot win without the enitre left of center vote. If you lose the left or the center you lose. This is why democrats and republicans run to their sides (left or right) at first and then run towards the center.

Pretending that you can win with the left alone is nothing more then a pipe dream that will harm all of us if it is believed.

i will point out too, that the same people who run around here screaming ABB and no third party votes are the same individuals who are here putting down DK.

I am a ABB and despise the green party. Yet I am not seeking to put down DK. I agree with him on almost all issues. The problem is that I am a realist and I don't think this nation is ready to accept what he is selling. This election, IMHO, is too important to bet on an underdog, that is my point.

and why should leftists within the party be held to a higher standard than center-right who would vote Reoublican!(?)

You are not held to a higher standard. The left as everyone else is held to one standard 'can you win' and I don't think a guy preaching no drug war and a huge military cut can win at this time.

[buddhamama]

92. wrong !!!!

on average 50% of eligible voters in this country do not vote.
the voting percentage includes those votes cast for repubs,DEMs,Libertarian,reform,green,Miss Moffet,Santa Claus and Howdy Doody.

so NO there is no need to cater.

promoting this misconception is what has kept DEMs down for too long.

and why would you want to promote it?

it only makes it harder for DEMs to win elections.

[Blue_Chill]

96. 50% means nothing

Because it comes from all political spectrums. You can't run an election assuming that most of the 50% will come from the center. That's betting on luck.

[buddhamama]

97. your post makes no sense to me

please explain yourself better.

i'm arguing against the fifty percent not for it.

[kysrsoze]

98. No, blue chill is correct

Your argument that 50% of the voters doesn't hold water. In a hotly contested election, both sides will be working to bring out more voters. Regardless, if the same people vote, the non-voters are a non-issue.

You cannot win this election without swinging centric Repubs and ensuring centric Dems vote dem too. You simply cannot win if half of your party thinks you're too far to one side and most of the other party thinks your platform is ridiculous.

The lack of veracity in fighting the hard right is what has kept the dems down. If you'll recall, we used to have both a Democratic majority in Congress and a Dem president.

The war has been waged and there is no taking it back. But if you think any elected Democrat is going to start marching us into Syria or Iran, you're sadly mistaken. Regardless of which Dem would win, things would get better. Once things start turning left, then maybe somebody as far left as Kucinich has a chance to win. But that takes time.

[buddhamama]

100. yeah like during the mid-terms

playing to the center-right didn't work then.

how do you know we won't be marching anywhere?

you're sadly mistaken if you think i'm going to take your word for it.

the point of my argument is that, if you can attract the non-voters than you can win,even if you lose some of the center-right.

there is no need to battle over voters, at least there shouldn't be.

again,especially in this election cycle.

if they centrists won't vote for Kucincih than they don't deserve our consideration.let them vote repub and show their true colors.

[kysrsoze]

105. They don't deserve our consideration." - very nice

"if they centrists won't vote for Kucinich than they don't deserve our consideration.let them vote repub and show their true colors."

Ummm - Don't people have a right to their opinions? Why wouldn't they 'deserve our consideration' if they don't believe in Kucinich's platform or, more importantly, if they don't believe Kucinich will win. What true colors are people showing if they don't believe Kucinich '04 is realistic?

Sorry, but the people who don't vote don't vote. What's the highest turnout in the past 20 years, maybe upwards of 60%? If you lose half the centrist vote (Dem and Repub), you lose. Period.

You don't trust that we won't go marching into more countries with a centrist Dem, but what are the chances if we have Bush for another 4 years?

You know, I really like a lot of what Kucinich has to say, but some of his ideas are too progressive for your average (and below-average/right-wing) American to accept.

[buddhamama]

109. if they are willing to vote repub

forget them and cater to the non-voter and whomever else is turned off by repubs. because of political differences-that was Blue_Chills argument- Moderates Conservatives won't vote for DK.

they can choose whomever they want in the primaries but if DK were to win, who will they vote for i wonder?
and why are the center-right held to a different standard.

[Terwilliger]

102. and the Democrats fucked that up

The lack of veracity in fighting the hard right is what has kept the dems down. If you'll recall, we used to have both a Democratic majority in Congress and a Dem president.

That would be because a group of Democrats (more like Republicans than Democrats) decided that Michael Dukakis was symbolic of the "failure" of the left of the Democratic party, so they started a third-party known as New Democrats. Those idiots have proceeded to wipe out Dem control of congress and throw the country into chaos by trying to make Al Gore run as this "centrist" when it was obvious that he couldn't get with the DLC program. The DLC JUST lost us the 2002 elections by supporting the Democratic party plaaaaaaaaan of getting the Iraq war question out of the way quickly so they could turn the interest of the American voter back to the economy. WOOOPS! Didn't work!

So you sit here all day telling us why we're alienating whole segments of society, where it's YOU and your DLC Puke friends who are driving away the progressive base of the party and assuring a Bush win in 04.

[kysrsoze]

111. Keep the insults coming, Terwilliger -

You cannot push your agenda in Washington without some compromise and agreement. Otherwise, you end up with a lame-duck presidency. You won't last long by refusing to work with others.

I'm not a DLC Puke, nor are my friends. We're all interested in public works, the Palestinian situation, the ecosystem, etc., but we're realists. And I don't sit here all day telling you you're alienating whole segments of society. I'm hopeful that the rest of the hard left don't think like you.

[Mairead]

120. Okay, great, *you* do the compromising, then.

If compromise is what's needed, then hold your nose and vote for a real Democrat: Dennis Kucinich. It's the only responsible thing for you to do. Because after Coup2K and the 2002 debacle, I'm not sacrificing my principles again. Sorry.

[buddhamama]

103. ...

"The lack of veracity in fighting the hard right is what has kept the dems down. If you'll recall, we used to have both a Democratic majority in Congress and a Dem president."

the lack of veracity in attracting the non-voters is what has kept the DEMs down.

why battle over the same voters when there are millions out there to choose from?

what is the plan to inspire people to get out and vote.
how come the number of voters has been on the decline since the 60s.

[Mairead]

123. That's Kucinich, then. Good. So we have your vote?

[THUNDER HANDS]

9. gee

This would have been really cool if he said something to the effect of:

"I really think you should all vote for me, but in the event I don't get the nomination, vote for whoever the Dem candidate is...just this once to get Bush out of office."

That, would have been productive. THAT would have earned DK my respect.

[Terwilliger]

13. I think DK knows he needs a lot of help...

just to get him past the primary

[kysrsoze]

27. Bingo! This is all about getting Bush out of office (please read)

Honestly, who gives a rat's ass if it's anybody in the Dem party - as long as Bush is out of office. Of course, I'll be just sickened if I have to vote for Gephardt or Lieberman (hope I don't have to make that choice).

Greens, this means you too. I realize the Greens have a lot of good points about the direction this country should be heading. I also know you want to get Federal funding for the Green party, but it's so much more of an important issue to get this country at least starting to turn in the right direction. After this election, knock yourselves out and I won't have a bad word to say about it.

But I don't want to hear that nothing will change if a centrist Democrat becomes prez. When it comes down to it, the U.S.'s reputation and creditibility in the rest of the world will be significantly improved, the economy will most likely get better, environmental issues will once again be considered important and things will be better for most people. If anyone on these boards wants to deny this, they are fools.

This country can't deal with another 4 years of Bush and there are a lot of idiots and ignorant people who still swallow everything the administration says. There are a lot of people who have had trust in the President drummed into their heads for their entire lives. People have a hard time dealing with the fact that their pResident and his cabinet are a bunch of crooks. There's a lot of denial.

However, to not join forces before the election in favor of your own personal goals or wishes, no matter how how noble they are, may result in another 4 years which may destroy this country. I don't think anybody on these boards can deny that as being true. The Greens can harp all they want and I'll support all issues they bring up, but if the Green Party doesn't agree to join forces before the election, I'll have absolutely no respect for any supporters of that position.

I love trees, animals, the Earth, people of all colors, creeds, etc., and I'm voting for Democratic president to save all of it.

[KCDem]

79. totally agreed.

I also wish DK had said "come out in the primaries to vote for me... but, when it comes down to election time, let's unite for common goals." There's a time to be idealistic, but election day is not that time.

[MadHound]

121. "Be a good sheep, vote for the DemoBAAAtic nominee"

Honestly, give the ultimatums a break. Do you realize how long people have been hammering at that same old tired canard. Since well before I was born. "If you don't vote Dem(no matter who the Dem is) Satan incarnated as (take your pick here, Reagan, Bush, Nixon)is going to be elected and all hell(literally) will break loose! Now is not the time, next election would be better!" And on and on ad nauseum. Face it, this kind of thinking, this rewarding of bad leadership just because they have a D behind their name, is how we got to this conundrum of Repug and Repug lite. You've fallen for it, I've fallen for it, most everybody has fallen far it. Well the shit has got to stop, and this is as good an election to vote third party as any other. Which is what I'll be doing unless Kucinich is the nominee(and even then I'll have to take a good long look at the platform to see how much the DLC watered it down). So I will lose your respect. Big whoop, especially after the browbeating that Greens get around here on a daily basis. At least I know that I will not be contributing to the two party, same corporate masters problem that is perpetuated by attitudes like yours. Honestly it is time for people to wake up and realize that they are being taken for a ride. But I guess for now the sheep mentality rules. BAAA! BAAA!

[blm]

36. Rat...trust Dennis...

he's a stand up Democrat. He LOVES being a Democrat. He's as loyal as they come. He believes in working WITHIN the Democratic party and the government system. No ego. No anarchist streak...not even a little one.

[Sophree]

114. Right

He goes out of his way to point out that he's a Dem. He'll endorse whoever the Dem candidate turns out to be.

[Bushknew]

11. Kucinich is da man

He's got my vote.

[TheDonkey]

12. Kucinich is right

Even if Kucinich fails to get the Dem nomination I think his words are important. We need to have the nominated Dem build bridges with the Greens and DLC and form an unstoppable coalition to oust the rethugs out of D.C!

[IndianaGreen]

14. I am damned impressed with Dennis!

Remember that Nader is not Green, and has never been Green in his life!

Nader is also a corporatist, and a supporter of what could best be described as a kinder, gentler, eco-friendly version of capitalism. This is snake oil!

As far as what kind of response will Dennis's appeal get, I fear it may be ignored by many. The problem I see is not the disenchanted liberals that fled to the Green Party, but the anarchists that are trying to control it under the guise of "consensus."

[Terwilliger]

15. what anarchists?

[Terwilliger]

43. what anarchists?

Is there a link somewhere, or some editorial opinion about these Green "anarchists"?

[Terwilliger]

91. No anarchists then

its not like you IG to say weird things that have no basis in fact

[Tinoire]

17. Indy - he didn't even have to write that letter but I'm glad he did

Over 1/3 of the people working with me on DK's campaign in the mid SF Bay Peninsula are Greens. Medea Benjamin is also supporting DK and that says a lot.

The Greens are going to run a separate candidate mostly to remain a viable political party which I see as their full right but most of the Greens will be supporting DK. I'm of course only basing this on my own personal observation and the HUGE interest in DK on the Green forums.

Let's just keep our fingers crossed!

[LWolf]

70. Question!

I know many greens are supporting him, and I keep wondering...will they reregister so they can actually cast a vote for him in the primaries? He needs the votes of all his supporters to make it to the general election!

[Tinoire]

80. Many I know are planning to. I think we need to empasize that!

Though I'd say that the Greens are politically savvy enough to understand the importance of voting for him in the primaries. Yes, I'm sure of it because they're out there campaigning for Kucinich and asking people to make sure they vote in the primaries.

Peace

[tomp]

16. this is real intelligent politics.

addressing the green issue is a very smart thing to do, and i like the way he does it, spelling out his program and commonalities with the greens. it could be a major turning point in american politics of the greens responsed positively to this appeal.

[twilight]

34. that is why I like DK

I was a registered Green; now a registered Democrat. Many things on his agenda are on my agenda as well. He is the best candidate out there. I don't care what anyone else thinks or says.

Just because he doesn't have $2,000 hotdogs and millions of dollars rolling in and his own satellite station doesn't mean a thing to me.

You should see how many :thumbsup: I get on the Dennis J. Kucinich for President 2004 bumpersticker! I think the polls are not being fair to him on any level and that is putting it mildly.

Judgment day will come! O8) O8) O8) O8)


:dem:

[Lars39]

18. This type of outreach is what I've been looking for; it's the way to win.

And shows that Kucinich is trying to help the country, not just trying to win brownie points. I wish all the candidates would jump on this bandwagon.

[Heddi]

20. kick

I love Dennis. he is *so* my man

[Composed Thinker]

21. Good

That's just as good as the letter by McCarthy, Sanders, and Kucinich to Vice President Dick Cheney, although TAP has an interesting piece by Tomasky on attacking Nader and why it could help.

[FreedomReload]

22. The Other Candidates Don't Deserve Green Votes

Unless their willing to ask for them like DK has done.

[PATRICK]

26. Nader started this

when he mentioned that the Greens should nominate someoine unless Kucinich was the Dem candidate. I think he mentioned Kucinich by name which was not an endorsement but does invite a move like this on K's part.

Good politics on K's part. Now Nader can back up or away from his words.

[LiberalLibra]

49. Exactly!! I can't wait to see if Nader puts up or shuts up, I predict....

....the latter though.

[JVS]

30. Good letter

[Against ME]

35. Good man,

I'd like to see the response that Nadar gives.

[JackieO]

37. DENNIS!

I LOVE DENNIS

[jiacinto]

39. DK is too liberal to win in the general election

And even if he were to get the nomination I am sure that Nader would run anyway.

[Terwilliger]

41. I'm sure you're wrong

but we'll never know because Kucinich will never be elected...this is why I don't think much of this "offer" by Kucinich, unless he's trying to position himself as the Green party nominee

[Blue_Chill]

76. I'm not understanding you

Are you saying that Carlos is wrong about DK not being able to win, but that we will never know because he won't win? huh?

[Terwilliger]

84. I'm sorry

your hatred has once again clouded your mind

[Blue_Chill]

90. WTF are you talkig about?

I'm asking you to clarify, that's all.

[Terwilliger]

93. Your hatred demands that everyone who doesn't think the way you do

must be rejected...so anti-Christian...sad really

[Blue_Chill]

95. Again WTF are you talking about

I only asked for you to clarify your post.

I haven't rejected anything. I only asked a question.

[kysrsoze]

99. Any questions are obviously personal attacks, you non-Christian

n/t

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kysrsoze]

106. True Christians don't insult and criticize others every chance they get

Quite hypocritical of you, isn't it?

[Terwilliger]

108. I'm not a Christian

but you're definitely a self-interested capitalist who has no idea what Christianity is either

[kysrsoze]

116. Yes, Obviously I Am....

I'm anything but self-interested. I had to use food stamps and WIC coupons to feed my daughter while I attended grad-school. I'm a single parent living in an integrated neighborhood. At least half of my daughter's friends are not white. I support social programs, including Head Start, workfare and universal healthcare. I have always been against the war and attended the Chicago protest. I voted against Bush. I also recycle, support the environment, ride my bike to work, pick up other people's garbage. I attend a church which openly welcomes gays and people of all races. I have to ask: What would a non-Christian know about being a true Christian?

Again, all you know how to do is blindly attack people who have a different opinion than you.

[Blue_Chill]

117. Who do I hate

Name them. I think you are confusing my disagreement with political ideas with hatred. I'm guessing someone somewhere told you that Christians are only allowed to be nice and agree with everyone and never lift a finger to defend themselves, their ideas, or their faith. You are wrong.

Now please stop the string of insults as they are becoming a disruption. I asked you nothing more then a simple question and you attacked me. I asked again and you once again attacked me. Then you claim that I am not a christian because I am hateful. There is absolutely no reason for you to make such a claim and to repeat in various threads in which your posts to me are constantly deleted.

[kysrsoze]

118. Hypocritical, isn't he?

It's funny how Terry acts as if everyone else is filled with hatred, but if you question any of his arguments, he attacks you.

[Armstead]

42. Yes Carlos (yawn)

Kucinich has the most inspiring and practical ideas of all the candidates.

You are probably correct about this election, but it's a much bigger pictrure that that --- You don't need to constantly pour cold water on any signs of a building liberal resurgance in this country. It really doesn't accomplish anything to be constantly repeating this mantra of "Oh liberals will never succeed."

[Terwilliger]

44. sure it does

it reinforces my notion that the DLC is interested in its own power...not in the health of the party or the health of the nation...makes the DLC Republicans

[Alexander]

54. Almost as bad as the Green Republicans.

Because I'll tell you right now, the Greens are sure as hell not interested in the health of the nation, and least of all the health of the Democratic Party. Otherwise they would not have stuck a knife in Gore's back when he had several stab wounds already.

I say again, and will provide pretty solid evidence if you so desire (although evidence, logic and proof will never persuade you, I'm sure) that Nader had a significant part in the defeat of Gore in 2000. To insist that his 97,000 Florida votes would not have given Gore the state by a comfortable margin had he not placed his name on the ballot there is pure lunacy.

And I'm recalling a very memorable quote from a reporter in 2000....I'm guessing it applies to you.

"I kept noticing in 2000 that most of the people who lectured me on how corrupt Gore was and how Nader was the courageous choice were people for whom the outcome of the election, on a personal level, didn't really matter. Some were young people, whose idealism is to be admired but who were by and large demographically insulated from some of the harsher realities of American life. But most were older, white, left bourgeoisie, tenured and cocooned in the carapace of self-righteous satisfaction, whose own lives wouldn't change much one way or the other no matter which party won"

[Terwilliger]

57. poor Alexander...still looking for someone else to blame?

Here...here's a quote from your buddy Mr. From

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?cp=3&kaid=86&subid=84&contentid=2919

The assertion that Nader's marginal vote hurt Gore is not borne out by polling data. -- Al From

Now...why would the anti-Nader suggest that this whole Nader blame bullshit is just that...bullshit...unless his sole motivation was the fact that the numbers don't lie...Nader did not cost Gore the election.

Now, you can repeat lies and mistruths all day, but that won't change any facts.

[jiacinto]

52. I know I'm right

I am not trying to "pour cold water" but I am being realistic. Kuchinich has no chance. And if he were to get the nomination Nader would still join the race.

[Terwilliger]

53. Again, a purposed lie from Carlos

He swears that Nader would join the race with Kucinich as the Democratic candidate, only after telling you that Kuchinich has no chance. Sounds like an easy assertion to "prove".

[Desertrose]

56. well, I know I'm right..do we cancel each other out?

I absolutely believe Kucinich DOES have a chance.

How can you be so sure he doesn't??? How can you be so sure of so many things?? Live a few more years and see if you're still so sure....

...and if you say something can't happen...and then act on it as though that were true...are you making it true......so on the contrary...if you believe something is possible and act on it...does that also make it real??

So if both are true..that by our belief and acting upon those beliefs creates something...
...then why in the world would you choose not to make something the absolute best you possibly could imagine??

Peace
DR

[LWolf]

72. I believe it is my solemn duty

to choose the best that I can imagine.

That's the way we'll make a difference. That's the way we will bring our country along the road to being the best that we can be.

That's why we cast our vote for Dennis Kucinich.

And no rhetoric of hopelessness or defeat will hold us back.

[Blue_Chill]

77. DK has some really great ideas

however I don't think they are a good fit with our economy.

- He is going to cut corp favorable deals, increase enviromental restrictions, etc. etc. in a time of job loss and job migration. Now I'm no expert but this doesn't sound like a good way to kickstart the economy.

Liberal paradise means exactly nothing to me if I'm out of work.

Also I think Carlos does have a point where he says that DK may be too liberal.

- Medical Marajuana
- 15% military cut
- Anti-Drug war

I think these three issues may make him an easy target. It's sad because I agree with him on 2 of the 3, but I also know how easily Rove will make him look bad to common Joe Voter.

[Armstead]

82. The economy is the problem -- not DK's ideas

While I would agree that in the present climate, DK's ideas seem radical and utopian, I contend that there is only one reason for that.

The economy has become so monsterous and mean that it is out of step with the purpose of an economy.

We should not be supporting and enabling a small sliver of the population -- the Corporate Elite -- to continue to amass so much power and to steal so much of the nation's (and world's) wealth.

The disparities in our economic assumptions of the last 30 years are epitomized by the unfairness and meaness of the Bush adminstration. But Bush and the GOP Right Wing Machine are only the symptoms of a deeper malaise.

If we contimnue to ignore it, and enable policies that enable these trends, we will continue to head down the road towards an Economic Totalitarianism that will crush 3/4 of the population for the enrichment and power of the 1/4 at the top.

People like DK and Nader are addressing these root causes. We continue to ignore them at our peril.

[Blue_Chill]

94. I understand

But what is he going to do to strengthen the economy?

If he only seeks to hand out long over due punishments in wall street but has no real plan to pull this economy out of the tank then he is not yet ready to hold office.

[Armstead]

122. He has many ideas

Change the "free trade" policies that have heled to decimate the economy to "fair trade" in which the benefits of globalization can be combined with policies to foster and protect the domestic sector too.

Go after the corporate monopolists who are the REAL economic problem today. We no longer have a free enterprise competative capiyalism, but a distorted monopolistic economy of giaganitsm.

Reverse thge blind push towards deregulation and privatization of public services. Not every activity can be beholden both to the marketplace and to the public interest. A balance needs to be restored with essential services and infrastructure.

Universal Health Care by expanding Medicare. Makes perfect sense. Healthcare should not be a speculative capitalism.

These actions have been given a bad name by Corporate Right Wing Propaganda. Not are they radical. They are really simply returning us to a course in which there is a balance -- instead of the current Tyranny of the Oligopoly.

[Sophree]

119. The majority of Americans are FOR medical marijuana

And AGAINST the Drug War.

You may have a point about the 15% military cut not being acceptable to the average voter, but it should be!!!! What we spend on the military is absolutely insane and if there would only be someone out there, brave enough to say so, even more people would agree and see the insanity of spending more on defense than the next 20 countries combined when we don't have enough books, schools, health care, etc.

[Fovea]

45. Good speach.

Good move, too.

[Yentatelaventa]

46. Does anyone really think DK can go all the way?

When DK gets bumped out in the primary the whole Nader angle will be moot.

[LWolf]

115. Yes.

Of course he can.

[Fovea]

124. What Jiacinto and others miss is that when paradigms shift in modern times

they rarely shift in small bite sized increments.

The Republican party, by actually making itself an orwellian self parody of traditional Republican Values, has given an opportunity for progressives to show a vision for America that is closer to what the average person wants than the Bushs 'god-given' vision of America.

The NeoCons have stolen the rhetoric, but not walked the conservative walk, and the conservatives know it. The depth of their displeasure, and the shallowness of their support for Dubya, is a serious sleeper story for the next year. The war brought back the stupid and robotic Bush, which the White House-- in its spastic defence of Bush-- resorted to, validating the worst images of Dubya.

I predict that in 2004 - 2008 cycles, the NeoCons are going down hard. The only thing that can save them now is Diebold, and that would start an actual civil war, and massive Martial Law, which would lead to ... you guessed it, more Civil War. So the Republican Party, in order to save itself, better hack DeLay, Hatch, and Frist, in a dark alley. Beware the Ides of October, NeoCons.

Reagan brought a large swing to the right, based on greed, and need for America to exert national pride in military dominance. We now have an opposite need. Our citizens want to be a part of the modern world. Instead, we have been highjacked by a group of people who worship Machievelli based on a shallow reading of 'The Prince'-- and model economic policy based on a casual reading of a pamphlet about 'The Wealth of Nations' and a thousand drunken discussions of 'Das Kapital'.

The country has already jumped farther toward the center, but I think they want a leader, someone who can show them that progressive policies can reverse the downward trend in American economic life.
We need to show how the other 1% lives on each end of the curve. That will pretty much sink the boat for the NeoCons.

The record large war chest is also a cookie jar of unbearable sweetness, and being George's special friend has proved expensive to many who also considered their pockets sufficiently deep. I predict that moderate republicans (a growing number) will see little to none of it in 04. That will scuttle the Pubs in 2008 completely.

Jim Jeffords will be a lot less lonely in that independent section.

[Sophree]

125. I hope you are right

I think you are right about:

"The NeoCons have stolen the rhetoric, but not walked the conservative walk, and the conservatives know it. The depth of their displeasure, and the shallowness of their support for Dubya, is a serious sleeper story for the next year. The war brought back the stupid and robotic Bush, which the White House-- in its spastic defence of Bush-- resorted to, validating the worst images of Dubya.

I predict that in 2004 - 2008 cycles, the NeoCons are going down hard. The only thing that can save them now is Diebold, and that would start an actual civil war, and massive Martial Law, which would lead to ... you guessed it, more Civil War. So the Republican Party, in order to save itself, better hack DeLay, Hatch, and Frist, in a dark alley. Beware the Ides of October, NeoCons."

AND:

"The record large war chest is also a cookie jar of unbearable sweetness, and being George's special friend has proved expensive to many who also considered their pockets sufficiently deep. I predict that moderate republicans (a growing number) will see little to none of it in 04. That will scuttle the Pubs in 2008 completely.

Jim Jeffords will be a lot less lonely in that independent section."

:fingerscrossed:

[robbedvoter]

48. Good letter - as usual - dems open arms - the response

is already starting to emerge here. BTW, I remember Gore also saying he is open and willing to talk to the Greens. He too wrote Michael Moore a long letter in response to his flippant querry.
I am not expecting any surprises here - but kudos to Kuchinich for trying. Now, someone please, read Tomasky and follow.

[Terwilliger]

50. what's emerging? emerging from whom?

what are "they" "emerging" with?

I've seen nothing on this thread that suggests Greens aren't very happy to hear these words from Kucinich.

Are you always "interpreting" with the goal of creating further division?

[ErasureAcer]

51. I consider myself a "Green" and I'll be voting for Kucinich

Dennis Kucinich is really the only viable option the democrats have who has a clear distinct agenda for the United States of America that differentiates with the Republican agenda.

Truly, this is the man all Democrats should be voting for, and all Greens as well.

Put Howard Dean(I pick him as an example because he is the front runner at this point) up against Bush, and what do you have on the Pentagon, Death Penalty, Civil Rights, retirement age, spending and so forth? The EXACT SAME AGENDA.

Seriously, the only thing that seperates Bush from Dean is their different stances on the war(and even then Dean is for unilateral war if the proof is provided to him, which he didn't think bush made the case for...but still, as Dean sees it is necessary, he'll go to war as well).

I absolutely can not understand how the man with the proper agenda(Kucinich) is so far back.

My guess is America has lost its soul. And if that is the case...we deserve another 4 years of Bush(or Dean or Gore...whatever you want to call him) for our punishment.

This is not the America I want to live in. With increased Pentagon spending, 70 year old retirement age, Patriot Acts(and parts of it, according to Dean) remaining intact, cruel punishment as in Death Row, and so forth.

Really now, the current Democratic candidates(besides Kucinich and Sharpton) are not giving much of a different agenda from Bush(like Gore did in 2000). And we all know if both candidates(the dem and repub) have the same agenda the national vote is gonna be 50-50 and Bush will cheat(steal a few ballot boxes) and end up the eventual winner.

Give America a choice in 2004. Vote Dennis Kucinich as the Democratic Candidate for President. Not only will you get the Green vote, you will receive the Dem vote as well. Dennis is the only one who can restore the liberal cause...and that is why he is the best candidate for the Democrats to nominate.

If not, I'll take another 4 years of Bush. He'll continue to push the envelope with everything...and eventually this country will break out into huge protests and discontent or it will eventually go into some civil war(yes I said it). Really now, the elections aren't everything...we can take back this country one way or the other. I hope it doesn't come to people fighting(literally) for their rights but if you guys don't want to vote for Kucinich I think that is what it will come down to in 3-4 years.

Dennis Kucinich is the choice for America, the choice for you.

[Desertrose]

55. What a great letter and a new way of dealing with things,eh??

To open a dialogue with someone...hopfully come to some sort of an understanding...

what a novel idea?? Something to use when he becomes President, don't you think?? Not surprising that this is the same man who has come up with a Dept of Peace!!

For all you saying he is too liberal...do you really get out & talk to people or do you just think that ?? Not accusing... I am honestly curious....I know that when I tell people about Dennis & what he stands for...people get excited & want to hear more. The people of this country are thirsting for truth...for a man who keeps his word, for someone who will fight for them....IMO Dennis Kucinich is the ONLY candidate I've seen who will do these things.

I say Good for you Dennis...good fro you and THANK YOU!!!

Peace
DR

[Ani Yun Wiya]

68. Excellent letter.

I saw Mr. Kucinich speak to a group of people last week.
They were inquisitive at first, by the end of the speach they were truly inspired.

DK has an excellent viewpoint on humanity and the world we live in.
He is NOT "too liberal" to win, those who think this are perhaps too conservative themselves.

DK is the kind of Democrat this country needs and with enough support CAN defeat *.

Democrats DO need a candidate with views that are OPPOSITE those of *, they need someone who will NOT compromise and waffle for any reason based on "electibility" or political expediency.

In the event that DK gains Green support * can be whipped, but we will have to keep our eyes on the actual process that determines how the ballots are counted.

Perhaps paper ballots and a large number of voluteers to properly count them would be better than the "electronic wonder" that the shrub crew is currently selling to us.

Edited for typo removal.

[LeftHander]

71. Could be the surprise of 2004

I think. He has a real open and honesty about him. He's not at all like McGovern. McGovern was a long time rich guy Senator. Kucinich has had his sleeves rolled up and been fighting for people and what is right his whole life. I think if his messege gets out and people see his face and his passion he could beat Bush.

Everyone knows what a disaster Bush, everyone that is except for Bush and a minority of hard core neocons.

I think it is time to take back the party from the "fake" democrats who let Bush walk all over them. Take back the party from the losers who voted for war.

Frankly I think it is more important to lose and have Bush further destroy this country than to have another rubber stamp corporate lacky in the White House.

Kucinich is my man and he is going to win in Wisconsin.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. McGovern Was A Long Time Rich Guy (NOT)

He was a history professor before getting into politics.

He was solidly middle class.

[TNOE]

83. He's Collected $2 MILLION

Already - which is huge. Volunteers are handing out pamphlets about him at the opening of Seabisquit - LONG SHOTS CAN WIN. It may be that after all the shit that is this WH hits the fan - people will be longing for a drastic change - even Repubs are sick of the politics of everything - and the lies. He is the PEACE candidate and I think America is going to be very ready for peace in about six months.

I love Dennis but I will vote for any Dem.

[Iverson]

86. a fine letter

Kucinich's letter captures the spirit that we need: working together. No wonder it meets with such objection on these boards, where the left is acceptable only as supplicants to the center and right.

[welshTerrier2]

89. coalitions: the only way to win

thanks for posting this, blm ... kucinich embodies the right political strategy for all democrats ... well, maybe i should say the "correct" political strategy ... the endless bickering about "evil ralph and the greens" has to end ... kucinich is not a "left-wing extremist", as many who support his policies have been labelled by some of our fine DU centrists ...

politics is about coalition building ... and you build coalitions by offering policies that appeal to a broad spectrum of voters ... you cannot build coalitions by focussing on a "win at any cost" strategy ... doing so will only alienate certain constituencies and will not result in victory ...

a big HOOOOOOOORAY for Dennis ... we need to see more of this coalition building from all the democrats ...

NOW, having said that, and i'm confident Kucinich's message will appeal to many greens, this does not mean the green party intends to roll over and play dead ... here's a recent article on the subject from their website:

source: http://www.gpus.org/press/pr_07_21_03b.html

Greens, during their national meeting in Washington, D.C. this past weekend, affirmed the party's intention to run candidates for President and Vice President of the United States in 2004.

<snip>

"This meeting produced a clear mandate for a strong Green Party presidential ticket in 2004," said Ben Manski, a Wisconsin Green and co-chair of the Green Party of the United States. "This meeting in Washington was a crossroads, and we chose the path of growth and establishing ourselves as the true opposition party."

<snip>

[ShaneGR]

104. My letter to Ralph Nader

Ralph,

You are without a doubt the biggest asshat since man was created. While supposedly standing up for your principles, you've only helped to elect the most extremist Republican in, well, ever. I suppose that's actually good for you because now that corporate interests are back in control of almost everything, you have much more work, i.e. money, than you did during the 90's. Congratulations!

As for this business about you running again. How about you run on over to my house and kiss my ass you friggin ego-maniac. Why bother running? Just show up at the RNC convention to give your speech. I'm sure they're more than happy to have you.

Your eternal enemy,
Shane

[Terwilliger]

107. off-topic...but not unexpected

put your helmet ON before beating yourself with the baseball bat! :eyes:

[JackieO]

110. Why are you advertising

Tostitos?

[buddhamama]

112. Ralph, you ego-maniac

meet Shane a fellow ego-maniac