Dean accused Hillary of supporting Iraq resolution

[phirili]

at Iowa Fund-raiser.

Claimed Hillary didn't fight hard enough to prevent war with Iraq.

[La_Serpiente]

1. Do you have a link

or is this hearsay?

[Closer]

2. Link?

Nice empty, accusatory post.

:eyes:

But I must say, IF he did say this, I sure as hell agree with him!

[Upfront]

3. If Dean Said It

he is right, and she is not along.

[alcuno]

57. I hope he names her as one of them.

I like Hillary Clinton, but she's not my senator. If I had a spineless Democratic senator in my state I would be royally ticked off.

Picking a little fight with Hillary Clinton is not such a bad idea; it would probably appeal to the 50% who don't like her.

[realFedUp]

4. As I recall he didn't name names, just said enough wasn't done to

stop the move to invade and actually Hillary did
support giving Bush a blank check.

[Cocoa]

15. that's correct

he didn't single anyone out, and I think he probably meant his opponents rather than Hillary.

I got a kick out of seeing her read Kucinich's introduction, which was kind of a slam on her in a way. When Kucinich took the stage, they had a big laugh together, I wondered if that's what it was about. :-)

[drfemoe]

44. that was funny n/t

[sujan]

5. so ?

wasn't she cheerleading for this war?

[madfloridian]

6. This is so NOT true.

I still have the tape. He simply said we had not fought hard enough. He is right we haven't. He did not mention names.

We ARE at war because we did not fight hard enough. He did not say her name, and this thread should be locked because of the way you phrased it.

[Jacobin]

7. Maybe its because she DID!!!!!!!!!!

Protesters invaded her office to try to talk her out of it. She had them removed by police.

She's PNACing.

She's a putz when it comes to Israel/US conquest of M.E.

[madfloridian]

9. I remember calling her office just before the war.

I remember being asked by an aide if I did not think it was important to be safe. She was very pro-war. You are right.

[Jacobin]

21. Thanks. It seems some here have a short memory about

Hillary's pro-war stance. We can't forget those who started IraqNam.

Until they apologize, admit they made a grave mistake, and start taking positive steps to undo this mess they have created, they need to be reminded of the consequences of their votes. Daily. Human lives are being lost needlessly because of them

[mdmc]

33. Yeah, in NY

it was hard to find an anti war dem...
:dem:

[E_Zapata]

8. Well, now I KNOW Howard Dean is an out of control egomaniac.......

if he doesn't have the friggin SENSE to lay off our beloved Hillary!

This man is NOT fit to be president. He gets an ego boost and next thing ya know, utter shit just falls right out of his mouth.

I am going to make a bumper sticker:

Hey Howie, Hands off Hillary!

And after all the really nice things Bill said about Howard back when Howard was about to make a grand ascension into the mainstream. tsk tsk.

[VermontDem2004]

14. First of all he didn't say it

I watched his speech twice.

[madfloridian]

20. I think Zapata is joking.

I hope.

[Scott Lee]

50. He SHOULD have said it because it's quite true.

Hillary Clinton not only voted for the IWR, she remains a supporter and committed to Bush's criminal war.

Sad, sad fact that has to be confronted. This is why I don't list myself as one of her supporters anymore.

[Jacobin]

23. since when is it a crime to tell the truth about warmongering?

YOu can "belove" Hillary all you want.

She is PART of the PROBLEM with Iraqnam.

[Forkboy]

10. a no-link flamebait post

[WindRavenX]

11. Dean needs to watch his mouth

The Clintons are right now the biggest fundraising draw for any canidate.
If what Dean said is true, than Dean is going to be regreting it soon when the Clintons refuse to campaign for him.

[madfloridian]

17. He did not say it. Not at all. Clintons don't want him anyway.

Dean did not say that at all. I am sure the video is still up at C-Span for free. Dean was the fifth one to speak. Quite a ways into it.

The person who started the thread posted something that is simply not true, is getting away with it, and you are playing into it.

[Scott Lee]

51. How Ari Fleischer of you!

This is exactly what the bald one told to war critics. Eerie.

[VermontDem2004]

12. I didn't hear him say it

But she didn't fight hard to prevent it, in fact she voted in favor of the war.

[WindRavenX]

18. Like a lot of the Dems

It seems kinda selective to just pick which politicians to blame for passing the Iraq Resolution, IMHO. The entire party was to blame for caving into extremists and unfriendly political enviroments. Basically, Bush had it set up so that anyone who didn't vote for it was not a patriot, and sadly, a lot of them bought into it.
Bush spreads fear, and this is a great example of such.
I do not give Hillary a free pass, but it's too simple to say she was to blame when there were many other outside influences...

[VermontDem2004]

27. I watched Dean's speech twice in fact

And that he is basically who he blamed, the party for not fighting hard to prevent this war. He did not single out anyone including Hillary.

[WindRavenX]

31. Ok then

From the nature of the person who started this thread, it appeared that he singled out Hillary exclusively, which is disturbing to me.
I agree with Dean's comments, but again, I think that right now we have to suck it up and move forward. We made a huge mistake, but we can't change what we did in the past....

[madfloridian]

36. "The person who started the post" did not tell the truth, WindRaven.

Watch the video. Think for yourself.

[sujan]

22. fight hard to prevent it?

If you say that she fought hard to prevent it then so did the republicans.

[VermontDem2004]

25. didn't is the key word

I said "she didn't fight hard to prevent....."

[sujan]

28. more like she supported it

She hardly fought, if any, to prevent it. She was on the war bandwagon from the get-go.

[blm]

41. Clinton was one of those NEGOTIATING for the better resolution

and joined with Kerry, Biden and Gephardt as part of the Dems working to keep Bush from getting the real "blank check" he wanted.

Unfortunately those negotiations didn't get the press that they should have. So, people were left believing the Dems all "caved" to Bush, when Bush was also forced to give in on some key matters.

[sujan]

47. SO WHY THE BLOODY HELL DID SHE VOTE FOR IT?

and if that resolution that got signed by Bush was negotiated, doesn't that simply prove the incompetancy of the leaders that you're cheerleading.

You say Bush was forced to give in on some key matters? Like what? Looks like it's the reign of King George in Iraq.

'Real blank check'...lol

[Scott Lee]

13. Dean was right - Hillary Clinton is a stealth war pig

Go Dean.

[shance]

16. Why is the truth so surprising?

She totally supported the Resolution and both blank checks to the Bush Administration.

I was very disappointed by her sell out.

[RetroLounge]

19. Flamebait without proof or links

eom

[Dr Fate]

24. Not only is there no proof he said it...

...but so what if he had, it's true. Hillary can justify/defend her vote for herself, if need be.

What a silly, divisive thread- obviously it has a flame for everyone!!!!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

26. You're wrong but...

..there were several subliminal shots being taken at the fundraiser.

Dean saying Congress hadn't fought hard enough.

Kerry and Edwards saying "we need more than anger." (We need more than complicity, too.)

No names were mentioned. Only alluded to.

[WindRavenX]

29. This is just dirty politics

Dems need to cut throwing shit at each other and unite.
This in fighting will screw us all.

[madfloridian]

32. WindRaven, you are not reading the posts.

The only in-fighting here is that someone posted something that is untrue. It can be proven by watching the video.

You are playing along with them.

[WindRavenX]

35. I was speaking about things on a higher level

Because this is a prime example of factions in the Democratic party.
We're so engrossed in the canidates we're ignoring the real threats...

[last1standing]

30. Can't everyone see this for what it is?

This is nothing more than someone trying to create disruption at the expense of Howard Dean and Hillary Clinton. Don't rise to it.

[madfloridian]

34. Yes, it should be locked as flame bait and spreading rumors.

But it won't be. The video is at C-span.

[quinnox]

37. It's Dean's only thing to run on

If he didn't have the Iraq war issue, he would be down in the bottom with Braun and Sharpton.

So he is going to bring this up as much as possible, it also helps divert attention from his flip-flops on just about everything else.

Still, in the end I think it will cost him the nomination, when supporters of other candidates as they drop out rally around whoever remains, and not Dean.

[blm]

38. Dean also told Wolf Blitzer NONE of them asked questions BEFORE the IWR

vote. That is a blatant lie about the work and the negotiations put forth by those doing the negotiating and posing the questions publicly.

We Still Have a Choice on Iraq

September 6, 2002
By JOHN F. KERRY


WASHINGTON - It may well be that the United States will go
to war with Iraq. But if so, it should be because we have
to - not because we want to. For the American people to
accept the legitimacy of this conflict and give their
consent to it, the Bush administration must first present
detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass
destruction and then prove that all other avenues of
protecting our nation's security interests have been
exhausted. Exhaustion of remedies is critical to winning
the consent of a civilized people in the decision to go to
war. And consent, as we have learned before, is essential
to carrying out the mission. President Bush's overdue
statement this week that he would consult Congress is a
beginning, but the administration's strategy remains
adrift.

Regime change in Iraq is a worthy goal. But regime change
by itself is not a justification for going to war. Absent a
Qaeda connection, overthrowing Saddam Hussein - the
ultimate weapons-inspection enforcement mechanism - should
be the last step, not the first. Those who think that the
inspection process is merely a waste of time should be
reminded that legitimacy in the conduct of war, among our
people and our allies, is not a waste, but an essential
foundation of success.

>>>>>>>>
In the end there may be no choice. But so far, rather than
making the case for the legitimacy of an Iraq war, the
administration has complicated its own case and compromised
America's credibility by casting about in an unfocused,
overly public internal debate in the search for a rationale
for war. By beginning its public discourse with talk of
invasion and regime change, the administration has
diminished its most legitimate justification of war - that
in the post-Sept. 11 world, the unrestrained threat of
weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein
is unacceptable and that his refusal to allow in inspectors
is in blatant violation of the United Nations 1991
cease-fire agreement that left him in power.

The administration's hasty war talk makes it much more
difficult to manage our relations with other Arab
governments, let alone the Arab street. It has made it
possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the
implications of war for themselves rather than keep the
focus where it belongs - on the danger posed by Saddam
Hussein and his deadly arsenal. Indeed, the administration
seems to have elevated Saddam Hussein in the eyes of his
neighbors to a level he would never have achieved on his
own.
>>>>>>>>>
The question is not whether we should care if Saddam
Hussein remains openly scornful of international standards
of behavior that he agreed to live up to. The question is
how we secure our rights with respect to that agreement and
the legitimacy it establishes for the actions we may have
to take. We are at a strange moment in history when an
American administration has to be persuaded of the virtue
of utilizing the procedures of international law and
community - institutions American presidents from across
the ideological spectrum have insisted on as essential to
global security.

For the sake of our country, the legitimacy of our cause
and our ultimate success in Iraq, the administration must
seek advice and approval from Congress, laying out the
evidence and making the case. Then, in concert with our
allies, it must seek full enforcement of the existing
cease-fire agreement from the United Nations Security
Council. We should at the same time offer a clear ultimatum
to Iraq before the world: Accept rigorous inspections
without negotiation or compromise. Some in the
administration actually seem to fear that such an ultimatum
might frighten Saddam Hussein into cooperating. If Saddam
Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international
community's already existing order, then he will have
invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at
the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if
the Security Council fails to act. But until we have
properly laid the groundwork and proved to our fellow
citizens and our allies that we really have no other
choice, we are not yet at the moment of unilateral
decision-making in going to war against Iraq.


John F. Kerry, a Democrat, is a senator from
Massachusetts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/06/opinion/06KERR.html?ex=1032312456&ei=1&en=930a8857e0bbb35c

[phirili]

39. Listen to Dean on Cspan blaming Hillary for loss of soldiers

rtsp://video.c-span.org/jdrive/smil/c04062303_dean.smi

[madfloridian]

40. Ok, maybe this thread really should continue to remind us.

If some people did not know how the anti-war folks got treated by some people, maybe they should.

Dean did not say it, the post is not true, but it is very very true that Hilary supported this war. So did Edwards and Kerry and the others. Kucinich did not.

They can not run away from it. They are going to sell the Medicare folks down the river as well, I fear. Dean did not say it, but he should have.

He said we did not fight hard enough. He is right. We didn't.

Good, it is good to have posts like this.

[Forkboy]

42. I already see Dean bashers

taking this as gospel :eyes:

[frustrated_lefty]

43. Jesus, you people are grasping.

Why not just call Dean the antichrist and be done with it? It astounds me, never-the-less, how you people seem to come out sounding as though you'd support Bush over Dean. Posts like yours simply disgust me.

[KC21304]

52. Sorry, Antichrist roll already taken. It's Kerry , don't you know ?

[Tatiana]

45. I don't think he mentioned Hillary specifically.

But even if he did, he'd be right. She didn't fight hard enough, but it would be unfair to single her out when so many of our other Democrats were complicit as well.

[phirili]

48. Exactly Tatiana; yet Dean goes around basing his Presidential run on this

[Tatiana]

53. I don't think his Presidential candidacy is based on that...

so much as it is based on something the majority of us know and feel.

We are heading in the WRONG direction! I think that's Dean's point. He sees so many things that have gone wrong in this country and the war in Iraq is just the crowning symbol of everything that is wrong with the decisions made by the leadership of our country.

He wants his country back and I want my country back too. That's a good message. It's the right message one of our Democratic candidates should be advocating.

I just don't think Dean is the one who has the wherewithal to turn this country around. But I applaud and admire what he has done to elevate the level of discourse in this country and motivate people to get off their butts and do something to give us our own regime change in America.

[retyred]

46. This coming from a man

who had no vote to give one way or the other, anyone can "SAY" they wouldn't have voted for war being they weren't asked to.

Given Deans prior statements on support of the war with either the UN or 30-60 days w/out the UN, I have no doubt he would have signed it too given the opportunity.



Retyred In Fla
So I Read This Book

[Scott Lee]

49. How very disingenuous of you!

You know very well that a defining part of Howard Dean's politics is that he has been an outspoken opponent of the Iraq War from the outset. It's pretty dishonest to mischaracterize him as the opposite, wouldn't you say?

It's also a terrible dodge of reality to deny that Hillary Clinton was not and is not a supporter of the IWR. Howard Dean was well within truth to specifically name Clinton as a war supporter, even though he didn't.

[Egnever]

54. I wish!

Hillary did suport the IWR , pretty heavily in fact. Remember her at the SOTU speech? She sucked on this war and I wish dean had called her on it.

The statements he did make were strong though and people got the message even if he didnt call hillary out by name.

[WillyT]

55. Dean Must Have The Nomination All But Locked Up !!!

At least that's what the level of sound and fury here indicates.

I'll take it as good news, thanks!!!

:bounce:

[ScreamingMeemie]

56. I am locking this thread.

It is inflammatory, and does not include a link or supporting evidence.

Thanks,
MrsGrumpy
DU Moderator