To what extent are you "anti-corporate" or against big corporations?

[vi5]

This is an issue which exists on so many levels for me. I'm 34 and for most of my life I've been anti big business and anti-corporations. Admittedly most of my reasoning was theoretical and with no real world experience or applications.

And as a result I worked for small companies right out of college. These were some of the most miserable experiences of my life. Honestly, employees were treated like human garbage...the owners of the companies were hovering over every single thing everyone did. There was literally zero respect for any of the contributions any of the workers made to this company.

Well, for the past 7 years I have been working for one of the biggest companies in the world. Pretty much the prototypical big business corporation that a few years ago was bought out by an even huger corporation that is in turn owned by an even huger corporation. A company that many of you probably hate, and in some ways maybe rightfully so.

But I have to say that over the past 7 years I have been treated with nothing but respect. Every single ounce of hard work I have done has been rewarded many times over. I am extremely well paid for what I do, as are most of the people here. We have an incredible amount of benefits including extensive time off to deal with and be with family, and in fact this is encouraged in numerous ways. There is a huge amount of job sharing that allows people (women in particular) to balance home and work life. We have incredible diversity programs both in terms of day to day work but also hiring and promoting. Health benefits are extended to domestic partners and adult children. In short, I'm treated 1,000,000 times better working for this big company than i ever did working for a small, privately owned company that many on here would consider to be the preferable route.

Now, don't get me wrong. This company and many others like it do some things that I don't always agree with, and in some ways even really have a problem with. But the treatment of their employees is not one of them. In every way and every day I'm made to feel like this small piece of what I do is just as responsible for the success of this company as anything that any executive does. It sounds incredibly cheesy but it is 100% true.

I guess I'm just wondering whether the anti-corporate sentiment is the majority on here or if it is just a vocal minority, or if in fact most people are like myself and don't see corporations or big business as either the savior or the devil in this country and ultimately are only as good or bad as the people running them.

[Loonman]

1. I'm against corporate excess and abuse

But even Thoreau came out of the woods, eventually.

[Occulus]

5. I'm against

corporate personhood. Take away their "right" to be treated as persons under the law, and excesses and abuses would vanish- the public could unilaterally revoke the corporation's business license, for example.

There are so many good reasons to revoke corporate personhood for good and forever, I can't list them all here. Corporations are able to evade both death and taxes. They are not persons.

[blondeatlast]

12. I couldn't have said it better. Thanks.

:toast:

[molly]

2. I agree with you -

[Stoic]

3. To this extent.

Corporations should not be allowed to donate "hard" money (direct to candidates) or "soft" money (donations to third part organizations). Period. It's the best way to liberate our representatives big money corruption.

[2tb]

23. congratulations, you've already got half of what you want

Corporations cannot donate "hard" money now and are pretty restricted on what "soft" money donations they can make.

Frankly, I would favor campaign finance reform that allowed registered voters to donate whatever they wanted to whoever they wanted (with full disclosure) and prohibited donations from anyone who was not eligible to vote. That would put campaign finance back in the hands of the voters.

[Az]

26. Big money

With the overwhelming vast majority of wealth in the hands of a few and mostly Corporate holders such a plan is still flawed. We just saw Dean running wild collecting money from little people all over the place and still he is no where near George having a simple dinner party with some friends. Money is no measure of support. Money will favor those with money.

[Armstead]

38. Need to Tame the Corporate Media

One of the biggest factors in this is the cost of campaign advertising in the Coirporate Media. An obscene amount of money is spent to market candidates in simplistic -- and often deceptive -- campaign ads.

Meanwhile, real issues are also surpressed by the coverage of the media, which treats politics as sports and show biz.

As a result, politics becomes the money chase.

In addition to otehr tyoes of campaign finance reform, we need to require the broadcast media to provide free advertising to all candidates (and issue campaigns) -- or at the very least keep it to break-even prices. They also should be required to provide a certain amount of time during campaign season for debates, candidate messages and other programming that presents the candidates in an open forum.

[OneBlueSky]

4. not anti-corporate, per se, but . . .

strongly believe that corporations must be regulated, and that their control of our government must be taken back by the rest of us . . . capitalism is a fine economic system, if properly regulated . . . lassaiz faire capitalism, on the other hand, is a disaster . . . it was proven early last century, and it's being proven again today . . . because corporations have so much money and power, they now control every aspect of our government and our society, and there seems to be no end to their greed . . . now they want to control the earth's water, the seeds we plant for food, even the weather . . . corporations MUST be tightly regulated, and the control they have over our government (e.g. their lobbyists actually write much of our legislation) must cease . . . until this issue is addressed, nothing else much matters . . . because as long as corporations control our government, WE DON'T . . .

[lapislzi]

6. I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience w/ small companies

I work for a small company, and the owners are wonderful to the employees. It's a little like being in an extended, neurotic, wacky family. Things can get very weird, but I always have the feeling that they're looking out for everyone's welfare. Maybe these people are the exception, but I'm happy here.

I think it's just good karma to eschew large corporations wherever possible. Buy local, support your neighbors...that sort of thing. Besides, I think Wal-mart is the beast of the apocalypse.

[vi5]

9. Well, that's my overall point....

Is that being a small company doesn't make it good and being a large one doesn't make it bad. There are I'm sure plenty of both in the various sized companies.

[Trajan]

20. Being a 'BAD' company or corporation ....

A 'Bad' company or corporation is 'bad' if it negatively impacts the community of citizens: whether large or small ....

A 'large' corporation can have a more positive impact than a small 'bad' company ....

Behavior is what matters: .... market and environmental regulation allow the citizens to dictate the parameters of behavior in the marketplace .... outlawing monopolistic activities, enacting child labor laws, erecting OSHA regulations, establishing the SEC, etc etc, ALL have protected the public from negative market behaviors that DEGRADE the marketplace and diminish public wealth, ALA Enron ....

Size DOESNT matter: ... behavior does ....

[Armstead]

39. The problems of BAD ones...

With a smaller business the problems are fairly contained if it is bad.

With bigger ones, the problems they cause are much more widespread. Like if Clear Channel was just a handful of right wing radio stations, that would be a focused problem. But because they have grown to control media markets, their arritides and politics are much more in control, and there is less competition to counter it.

[TahitiNut]

7. "Must" read

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1887208046.01._PE30_PIdp-schmoo2,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Rabrrrrrr]

35. Aye, 'tis a brilliant book

read it in seminary for an ethics class on "environmental racism", another big aspect of corporate existence.

Wonderful book, if a bit emotionally-overwrought at times, but pretty darn accurate to the dangers of global corporations which supercede national boundaries. "How do you tax a company, and make a company a local entity, if it exists in Bermuda, but has its 'real' offices in Miami, it's factories in Jakarta, and sells it's stuff in Germany?"

[RichM]

8. The argument against excessive corporate power is NOT that no

employees are ever treated well. Thus, the fact that you personally have been treated well (so far) by one big company is completely beside the point.

The argument, rather, is that the country's corporate oligarchy comprises only a tiny sliver of the population, yet holds virtually all the power, has purchased the government, & essentially makes national policy - always in their own self-interest. Sometimes, it's in their own self-interest to keep some employees happy, at least for a while.

No doubt there are SOME (even many) employees at Halliburton & Bechtel today who are positively delighted with their jobs. No doubt there were some at Enron only 2 years ago, who were delighted with their jobs, right up to the day when the company went bust. If you take company XYZ, they might be merrily transferring jobs to China, polluting small towns in Mexico, and bribing officials here & abroad -- all while treating some of their US-based employees nicely. That wouldn't really affect the argument in the bigger picture.

[vi5]

11. So a small company that treats its employees like crap......

is better simply because they are a small company and don't have any power? That seems like skewed logic to me. I'm not saying that there's not some truth to what you are saying but I think the problem is overall american money culture and not necessarily simply big versus little companies.

I deal with people every day in our overseas branches and in our manufacturing facilities all over the world and get the same feeling from all of those people about the company I work for.

[RichM]

13. I didn't say anything remotely like that.

I didn't make any comparison to small companies whatsoever. You're just jabbering on about your own choice of subject.

PS - my wife LOVED her job as an executive for a Fortune 500 company, where she was treated wonderfully for 13 years - right up to the day where a merger caused them to eliminate thousands of executive positions, including hers.

[Az]

10. Its not the people that are evil

Your dealings within a corporation are going to be with fellow human beings. Corporations however are a bit more than just a collection of people. As our brains are just a collection of brain cells a corporation is a collection of people. Both operate within the laws that govern them. For brains it is the laws of nature. For corporations it is the laws of corporate drives.

Let us examine the differences between humans and corporations. Humans are biological entities. We have drives and instincts that guide our behaviour. An important one is our social nature. We have a basic instinct to work together for the common good of all. This serves the survival of the species by creating a healthy environment for the maximum number of humans.

Corporations although comprised of humans are not driven by by human needs. Their basis of survival comes from an ever increasing accumulation of money and power. If a company ceases to expand it becomes a target for another company to either buy up or drive under. Thus it is a constant race to expand.

Initially a corporation lacks the power to overrun human society. While this balance is maintained the corporation must serve the community and strive to produce that which the people demand. Eventually however the corporation in its drive to increase efficiency overcomes the community and begins to lay pressure on the society to drive it where it wants it to be. This process continues until the corporation takes its battle to the governing centers of human communities and it stives for even more power.

All the while this is transpiring there are good and decent people working together within these corporations bearing no ill intent upon the rest of society. They have been reduced to cogs in a machine like cells in a brain. It matters not that they hold nothing but the best intentions. It is the collective effect that gives rise to the battle with society. Doing what is best for the corporation is not necissarily best for society. Doing what is best for society may be destructive for a corporation. And the more power corporations accumulate the more drastic the differences will become.

[rman]

14. in the end it is people who make the decisions

even in big corporations.

If and when "a big fish eats itself from the head down" then that's hardly an act of god is it?

And if a manager treats employers like shit, then who's doing that? the manager.

It's not that because it's a big corporation, noone is accountable for what the corporation does.

[Az]

18. The descisions are made

in the interest of the corporation. It is the rules of engagement that the descisions are made on. Yes it is a human making the final descision. Simply put the social darwinism that reigns supreme in the arena of corporate politics means that those that are Psychopathic Personalities (as suggested by Kurt Vonegut) will find their rise to power accelerated. Those that can make descisions with no consideration of human impact will find their carreer paths greased. A corporation will die out if another can do what it does more efficiently or profitably. This is the name of the game. Thus a CEO with the humanity to do the right thing for society will see his corporation expell him while the CEO ready to evict the orphans (so to speak) will thrive.

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. Well said, Az

You said it all very nicely. Corporations, of any size, are neither moral nor immoral in design; but as you state, the goals of society and the goals of corporations are very different.

One thing I see sad in this is the communities in which "jobs" is the mantra and end-all be-all of existence of the community, to the point that they WILL bend over and do whatever is necessary to keep corporations, the larger ones anyway, there in the community, even eliminating corporate and property taxes, etc. Very harmful, really.

In my hometown is a GM plant employing about 3,000 people directly (used to be almost 5,000), plus indirectly employing another 10,000-20,000 people in local industries making stuff FOR GM (seat cushions, brake pads, mirror mounts, robots, assembly machines, etc.). For a city of 50,000, that's pretty damn significant. And if that city, or any city, gets totally stuck in the 'Oh my God, if this plant closes, we're screwed!' mantra, they might very well sacrifice the city and the people for the life of that corporation, instead of vice versa, and also instead of looking for new, other, better methods of bringing income and money into to the city, they become far too focused on the corporations.

Hell, even in NYC, the big corporations that employ boatloads of people get tremendous tax cuts on property taxes to stay in Manhattan.

Have you ever read Niebuhr's "Moral Man in Immoral Society"? I think you'd really like it - he talks much of what you were saying and I said in the beginning, which is that as people come together and form groups (whether cities, churches, or corporations), the collective morality goes down, so that even an assemblage of pure, decent, honest people, will be less moral than any of the individuals alone. (no, there is no direct corrolary between the amount of immorality and the amount of people, so that a small corporation (or a small church or small city) can be more immoral than a large one).

I very much think he's right, and as a society, we need to remember this more often when coming up with social rules and laws and regulations.

[JanMichael]

15. I'm really glad that you brought this up.

Small business is not the end all, beat all, for the employee. While responsible for the most job growth they're also responsible for the most unemployment, lack of Healthcare, and probably fudged taxes.

My "anti-Corporatism" is aimed only at certain low-wage, lousy benefits, union busting, crap product Companies like, tah-dah, WalMart.

The fact is that for stability and benefits the large corporation almost always blows the socks off of working for a "mom & pop" shoestring operation.

Personhood must be abolished, Officer (CEO) to base employee compensation ratio MUST be lowered, and taxes must be levied and paid.

In short, Democratise Corporations.

The world would be better for it.

So you see my "anti-Corporatism" isn't the stereotypical type.

[markus]

16. Very. We need a sunset on all corporate charters

and a requirement that they are "good corporate citizens" as a condition of renewal of the charter. Say, every five years.

The review should be by a citizen's review board, preferably appointed by governors and confirms by state legislators. These should hold open hearings and take testimoney from workers, consumers, etc. prior to renewing any corporate charter.

Anyone testifying should be protected. As a practical matter, any testimoney by employees should be in a closed door session with only a transcipt released, so people won't be afraid to talk.

Any corporation which fails to get its charter renewed must liquidate itself, with employees, pensionsers/former employers, and consumer/citizen claims given primacy over any other creditors or other claimants.

[JanMichael]

17. Yes.

Good ideas.

[Wapsie B]

37. Agree with the sunset provision

and the citizen review boards. But it would need to be disconnected from the governors and legislators. All it would take is for the board to be stacked with a group of "free market" right wingers to become a rubber stamp for Korporate Amerika.

I'm also tired of people sitting on boards not because of some expertise they possess but due to their social standing. Whether it be a Korporation making widgets or a non-profit hospital people on these boards are chosen from some inner circle of movers and shakers. No wonder voter apathy is what it is in this country. People see that even at the local level decisions are made by some cabal.

I'd like to see people chosen from the voter roles just like for jury duty. You'd have a good cross-section of people than just a board full of company lap dogs ready to do anything for the sake of a korporation.

[Gringo]

19. Corporations are neither good nor evil

They are like midless machines constructed with the sole purpose of growing and maximizing profits. Those goals don't always match well with the needs of humans who are affected.

I don't think most of us hate corporations per se, but object to their undue influence on government policy, and their "personhood" and the rights that come with that, that have been illegally conferred upon them. Their near-complete lack of accountability to society is also a problem. (Of course as a corporate office drone you are expected to shoulder complete accountability.)

I work for a small/medium-sized company, I'm treated well and I like it. My experience with big corporations consists of fast food joints, and I can tell you that those workers are not treated well or compensated fairly. You should tip the McDonald's kid the next time you're there because they work very hard for shit pay.

I also watched a video detailing corporate policies at home depot, and it is disgusting to what degree they want control of their "associates'" personal lives. Mandatory random drug-testing for near-minimum wage workers? Appalling invasion of privacy IMO. Also, the Orwellian pep rallies they have to attend are soo creepy.

I'm so grateful that I only work with real people who speak English, and I don't have to communicate with idiotic buzzwords and company slogans.

[Az]

21. Mindless

Are corporations truly mindless? What is a mind? I would suggest that as our brains are composed of numerous brain cells each doing their own thing in compliance with the laws of nature a corporation may be a entity of its own having risen from the numerous individuals acting in compliance with the needs of the corporation. Thus for all practicle purposes a corporation acts with an intent and identity all its own. Independent of the individuals that make it up.

[pberq]

22. It comes down to moral behavior.

The next generation needs to be trained to think and act morally. In other words, you don't seek personal gain at the expense of somebody else. Because we are in fact all in this together.

For example, the top executives at Wal-Mart earn huge salaries at the expense of the workers who are treated like dirt. Also, they sell items made with sweat shop labor.

This doesn't mean you can't make a living. We just need to get rid of this crazy idea that the more money you have, the happier you're going to be, and it doesn't matter how you get it.

I'm not saying that capitalism and the free market economy is bad, just that in the current climate, corporations need to be regulated, using some of the excellent ideas posted above.

[Lastgasp]

24. Off-Shore Corporate Accounts?

Do you happen to know if the corporation you work for has an off-shore mail drop? I am opposed to any corporation that goes to such lengths to avoid paying U.S. taxes. It's WRONG.

[Allah Akbar]

25. I'm not against big corporations, I work for one

I'm against big corporations running our government.

[Az]

30. But running government

Is what corporations need to do to escalate their struggle for increased efficiency. If one corporation does not succeed in gaining a hold on the government another will attempt to. Thus it becomes the interest of all corporations to gain access to the government. And they are much more efficient than you or I at it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

33. Sadly, you are correct

Which is why it would be very helpful to eliminate the personhood of corporations; and also tax corporations for being in the U.S., whether a US corporation or not, and not allow these off-shore tax breaks, etc.

[sinkingfeeling]

28. Why I try to avoid 'big business'

I worked for (dare I speak the name?) IBM for over 29 years, and in my positions, spent much of the time in and around most of the Fortune 500. I was absolutely 'in love' with IBM for the first 20 years. Although I moved 7 times across the country with them, I still felt like they were my 'family', had great success and excellent benefits! As their financial problems worsened in the early 1990's (due some really dumb decisions, like not buying out MS when Gates offered it to them), the company was forced to change. The CEO came from outside the IBM family and suddenly, I didn't recognize my employer. Respect for the individual worker declined, my pension formulas were restructed 3 times reducing my benefit by 30%, health insurance 'for life' disappeared, and massive 'downsizings' eliminated older employees. I was forced out last year, about 8 months away from full retirement (although, I was lucky in that I still receive one). So, corporations will change as they go through their 'life cycles'.

But today, we're seeing something different...the 'global economy' has come into play. Older, experienced employees are being replaced by 'contract' workers in India and VietNam, working for a fraction of what American workers expect. The 'corporations' demanded more H-1B visas to bring workers here, while 10s of thousands of technology workers are laid-off.

American corporations are driven by the 'market' and make less and less contribution to society. They will go for the cheapest 'human resource' (remember when 'people make the company'?) thereby, wrecking local economies and tax bases when they relocate abroad. IBM sold off its fine art collections and closed its public gallery, stopped sponsoring the Olympics, cut its matching contributions, etc. Other corporations trash the environment and fill the countryside with huge box-like 'stores' and vacant buildings. I fail to understand how markets can continue to grow indefinely when wages will continue to drop for American workers...who's going to buy the stuff from the corporations? Markets must be expanded.

So, corporations influence (buy power from) the government to relax the 'rules', cut their taxes to increase profit, to drive the stock price up (squeezing out the small investor), and begin to globalize their market. What is W&Co.'s aim in the Middle East? To turn it into a market for US corporations? Will there be a Wal-Mart Superstore in Baghdad soon?

Corporations have WAY too much power and influence today. The state of Arkansas waived the sales tax on 2 or 3 jet airplanes for Wal-Mart, but the average Joe citizen, living on under $20,000, still pays that sales tax on the used '93 Chevy he needs to get to his job at the SuperCenter. I do not shop at Wal-Mart, I do not buy from GE, Nike, Kohls, etc. I do not own stock.

Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

[Armstead]

36. Good summary

Your experience sums it up well.

My fatheer worked for one of the biggest corporations in the world for many decades. He was loyal and successful within the company. And for most of that time very happy with his employer.

But in the early 80's, the corporate culture changed. My father decided to take early retirement and get out because he no longer felt this corporation reflected decent human or corporate values anymore. My father was a very decent man. But he felt this company was no longer decent. It had become ruthless, mean and nasty at its core.

This was not a struggling company at the time. But it had decided to follow the ruthless model of growth at any cost. They screwed many communities across the country, and countless individuals.
The company was not alone in this. It was just a reflection of what has happened to society.

[TahitiNut]

29. When I was 34,

I had the same (myopic) perception. When I turned 40, my experience changed dramatically. Same company. A company looking disproportionately at the cost of its health care benefit and pension benefit and compensation costs for experienced employees -- NOT to the value of that labor, which is very dependent on the ability/willingness of management to exploit that value and convert it into profits. It's a fact of corporate life that management takes most of the credit (and disproportional compensation) for labor's accomplishments. Labor is treated like a commodity -- having only cost, not individual value.

[AP]

31. Thanks to regressive taxation, big companies have an

unbelievable competitive advantage over small businesses. Furthermore, they run politics.

It's not so much that, structurally and inherently, big businesses can do the things you like and small businesses can't. The issue is that, with real progressive taxation on corporate income, and with less money in politics, small businesses would be able to compete better and do those things.

[Armstead]

32. An economic 1984. It's a Systemic Issue.

It's a good question you ask, and I'm glad you brought it up. It gets to the heart of things.

I am not inherently anti-corporate. They do have an important role to fill. But I believe we need fundamental reform and change to fix the disaster of the last 30 years and move more towards economic democracy.

We need to encourage a diverse economy, and a democracy in which corporations are only one of the many interests of society balanced with other interests and needs -- not the guiding one.

Corporate Power is an all-pervasive core issue that exists on many levels. The problems of Corporate Gigantism and the values of greed that have been instilled by the Corporate Right Wing is a subject that HAS TO BE an ongoing core issue in all of its aspects, as a society and within our political system.

But it has been swept under the rug for the last 30 years.

The corporate sector and individual monopolies have already have gotten far too big and powerful through the mergers and deregulation of the last 30 years.

Obviously, there are good big corporations and bad ones. And there are good people and departments and bad ones within them. And most Big Businesses are probably a mix of both...It's the same with small busness too. There are good ones and bad ones.

But corporations are ALWAYS inherently bad when they are allowed to get too big and too diverse and too powerful. Their power goes far beyond providing a particular job or service. They become like governments and nations.

They have to be restrained and kept under strict control. And we have to stop allowing the Corporate Sector to dictate our values, priorities and policies. We should have some "trust busting" and reregulation. And I agree that we need to redefine their basic legal status as people, because it makes them a class of immortals.

This Corporate Oligarchy is harmful for many reasons. It becomes monopolistic and eliminates choice from society. It accelerates the concentration of wealth and power. It ultumately loses all human scale, and creates a 1984 scenerio, with The Company replacing The Party.

We also become too dependent on them when they reach that point. And thus, we lose democracy. Healthcare, for instance, is so screwed up and unfixable because a handful of insurers and corporate hospital systems have the Power of Life and Death over who receives coverage. They extort far too much. As a result, they smash any effort to fix the system.

They also accelerate the concentration of wealth when they get too big. Workers at the bottom are pushed down or tossed out, while those at the top become a new aristiocracy.

It screws up our value system too. The Church of teh Market makes society shallow, servile and greedy and mean. Our only value becomes as consumers and "production units" -- not as citizens and individuals or communities.

Also, while you may be in a good situation in your present job, you are fortunate in that you are on the nice side of the equation. But that could change in an instant, as soon as some investmant analyst decides the company has to cut back on those perks, or eliminate your department and job or impose other harsh measures.

If that happens and you have no choice of where else to go because the competition has been eliminated, you could be up the creek becauze you have fewer or no options in a monopoly economy. (I'm speaking hypothetically, of course, because I don't know your specific situation.)

[xchrom]

34. i'm glad ''big business''

has been good to you.
but large corporations must go. they suck up far too many resources that many others could use as well.
and no company once it gets to be so big -- isn't going to resist the temptation to control more and more of it's environment. and there in lies the problem.
our economics must be re-thought.

[newyawker99]

40. Hi sinkingfeeling!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast: