could Dean get the single issue rural gun owner?

[pstokely]

could he even get the rural vote?

[MrBenchley]

1. Not even if he got a confederate flag tattoo

on his ass...

The redneck idiot vote is solidly Republican...and there's no reason to debase ourselves to get it.

[zoidberg]

18. Yes, all rural people are redneck hicks...

:eyes:

Do people realize how much the gun issue hurts the Democrats in these elections? For many people, the only thing they really care about politically is that the government not take away their guns. While Dean might not win over that many people who normally vote GOP, his stance will take away a major issue that mobilizes the right.

Not to mention that he a spot on correct on the issue of gun control.

[lastliberalintexas]

26. How open-minded of you!

Glad to see that freepers aren't the only ones with stereotypes of certain voters. :eyes:

Yes, Dean can. There are thousands of voters out there who don't vote Dem JUST BECAUSE of the gun issue. Far too many of them are blue collar/union members even. I've been at the union halls trying to stump for candidates and gotten comments like "Yeah, s/he seems good, but does s/he believe in gun control?" That is the most important issue for many of these people, who are predominantly male. It's amazing to me, and has been so very frustrating to see these people vote for a repub who doesn't give a rat's patooey about them.

This issue has hurt the Dems more than any other issue in our attempts to get Southern voters- even more than abortion/school prayer type issues. I am not saying that we should pander to the South or that we can only win by winning the South. But why give up on votes that could be ours so easily? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

[havocmom]

39. with tactics like calling them "redneck idiots"

we don't have a snowball's chance in hell. Dr. Dean, on the other hand, is making inroads with his logical, well considered arguments on issues, gun control and more.

I live in the midst of those folks you so sweetly lumped into a group to be dismissed. Guess what! Some of them think! And if a candidate does not shut them down with an issue dear to them, they often wait around to hear the rest of the speech!

By the way, "the redneck idiot vote" around here voted decidely for Max Baucus in the last election after a season of being pretty vocal in their distaste of the tactics of his repub opponent.

[northernsoul]

45. not true

Please visit Minnesota's Iron Range sometime. The folks up there have been tough-as-nails labor radicals for the better part of a century now (in fact, several northern MN cities had Communist and Socialist mayors and city councils back in the 30's). But they are are also rural people, who love their boats, their snowmobiles, and definitely their guns. In recent years their enthusiasm for the the Democratic coalition has waned as they perceived the Dems as selling them out on economic/labor issues and embracing an urban social agenda that emphasizes gun control and other "intrusions" into their way of life. A lot of these guys probably still won't vote Puke in 2004, but they may choose to stay home if they perceive that the Dem candidate don't have much to offer them. If Dean's current "non-threatening" position on guns could be combined with greater support for labor issues, these folks will show up on election day and vote solid Dem/DFL. Minnesota is no longer a "gimme" blue state, we need every vote we can get if we're going to win here - I think that Dean is the man to do it, and he'll do it by treating all Americans (not just city-dwellers and people on the coasts) as people with legitimate concerns.

[Jackpine Radical]

50. You're dead-on, NS.

I lived on the Iron Range (for about 10 years one winter, as they say) and agree entirely with this analysis. Also true of places like Superior, WI & the whole Lake Superior strip of WI.

[greenwow]

2. Maybe

Even the NRA gives him an A rating. Of course, what's a few votes from gun idiots worth? Is it worth alienating the rest of the party? Some of us find Dean to be much too violent on his stance on those things.

[leanings]

5. Of course, what's a few votes from gun idiots worth?

How about WV and TN?

[Jackpine Radical]

25. At a Dean meetup in N WI I mentioned how his gun control stance

would make him a whole lot easier to sell in this neck of the woods, & all the rural people agreed with me. Up here the rurals aren't bible-thumpers & often have a mix of "patriotic" & progressive opinions, but they vote their guns above all.

I recall talking to an old friend who works in a hardware store in a little town just south of L. Superior. He was pretty much a full-blown conspiracy theorist--thought Wellstone had been murdered, has doubts about 9-11, etc. but said he'd vote his guns. That one issue wins out over everything with him, and he's not unique.

The basic mentality up there is total distrust of gov't; they figure as long as they have their guns they can defend themselves, feed themselves & survive, no matter what.

[jpgray]

3. NRA will go Repub, no question

But Dean may give a few moderate gun owners pause.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

4. quite possibly

I like Dean's support of gun rights.

[TheBigGuy]

6. Well..Vermont is pretty rural...

The largest city, Burlington, is only around 30,000- 50,000 or so..thats not too big.

So, how did Dean due with Vermont country folks...???

[tjdee]

7. No, unless they were against the war, want civil unions,hate tax cuts,etc.

The gun issue, in many cases, will be trumped by civil unions and 'national security'.

If there are a few gun issue voters who don't care about anything else...maybe he'll get those...so the answer to your question is...maybe...

Also, do you mean southern rural, or what? There's a difference.

[leanings]

8. What does the Democratic party have to lose?

It's a surety that no one will be alienated from the Dems side by Dean's gun position. There's just not enough people that give a damn. Look at the membership roles of VPC or Brady compared to the NRA. On the other hand, we stand to gain a vast amount of support if his position does draw gun owners over.

[realFedUp]

9. Sure

Dr. Dean is a straight talking guy.

[ButterflyBlood]

10. he might get some libertarian types

who despite the religious right and those owning bush. not all single issue gun owners are stupid rednecks. in addition he'd also get people such as union members who might vote Republican based only on that issue (which was probably the case in WV)

[SummerGrace]

11. From Meet the Press last week:

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to an issue that you seem to break away from liberal Democratic orthodoxy and that's gun control. This is a brochure in your gubernatorial campaign from the NRA.

"In November we should return a truly pro-gun Governor to office by re-electing Governor Howard Dean."

And again, David Broder's coverage of your campaign. "Dean bragged that he has 'an A rating' from the National Rifle Association... he argued that 'as Democrats, we ought to say keep the federal laws we have, enforce them, but no new laws.' Get the gun issue off the table. It cost Al Gore three states—and the presidency."
Which states did Gore lose because of guns?

GOV. DEAN: I think Montana, Tennessee and West Virginia. There may be more, but those are the ones I would guess, given their patterns with previous elections.

MR. RUSSERT: Democrats in Congress right now are saying that at gun shows, you can buy a gun on Saturday or Sunday and there is no background check, because many law enforcement agencies are closed. They want to extend that deadline. Would you support that kind of gun control?

GOV. DEAN: What I would support—I do support closing the gun show loophole, but I would like to see InstaCheck, which is the same system that we have elsewhere, and I think if it takes keeping somebody on duty in law enforcement agencies, that would be fine. Look, let me explain to you why I take the position I do on gun control. In Vermont, in the last 11 years, we've had between a high of 25 and a low of five homicides per year. Most of them, the majority, are domestic related, not many of them have firearms and not one of them would be changed if we had gun control.

We essentially have no gun control in Vermont. All we have is you can't bring guns to school.

Now, I don't believe for a moment that that's appropriate for New York or Los Angeles or Washington, D.C.

But the point I'm trying to make here is why does gun control have to be a national issue?

We have some good federal laws. I support keeping them. We should close the gun show loophole with Instacheck and after that why can't each state make its own laws? Why can't each state address what they want to do about gun control as a state? Because what we need in Vermont is not the same thing as what you may need in Washington, D.C.

A guy in Tennessee told me, "Look, when you say gun control to me in Tennessee, it sounds like you want to take away the squirrel rifle that my father gave to me. When you say gun control in New York, it sounds like you want to get the Uzis and the illegal handguns off the street."

It's two different problems. We have national laws. I'm not in favor of repealing them, but I think additional gun control ought be to be done on a state-by-state basis if the state wants it and we ought not to have a one-size-fits-all federal government approach.

MR. RUSSERT: But keep people traveling from state to state very easily.

GOV. DEAN: That's right. And Virginia is a perfect example of this. New York claimed that a lot of their guns were coming from Virginia, so they had lax laws, so they signed a bill that said you can only buy one gun a month. That's a Virginia law. It doesn't apply to other states. It seems to me it addressed the problem in Virginia successfully. Why can't we do that?

Democrats are getting killed on gun control. Democratic activists who basically are in favor of gun control are glad to see me coming in the West and the South, because they do not want to lose any more national elections on the gun issue.

You have to scroll down to the Meet the Press transcript.
http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2002_08_25_dean2004_archive.html

[dsc]

12. It may help in rural Ohio as well

I would be willing to bet that most of the people responding to this thread don't know even one gun owner. I would also bet that many come from cities. I can say I know several people who refused to vote for Gore on guns alone. You can call me a liar or whatever but I do know them. Most northern gun owners are not that far off issue wise with other northerners but this issue is the deal breaker. Don't ask me to explain it but I know for a fact it is.

[janx]

35. I know gun owners, and I have been a gun owner myself.

Dean is absolutely right on this matter.

[NicoleM]

13. Yes.

My parents voted for Bush. My step-dad has a few guns. He's not a redneck or an idiot. I was talking politics with my mom one day and trying to sell her on Dean. She liked what she heard, but my step-dad said the only problem with him is that he's a Democrat. I told him about Howard's A-rating with the NRA. If Dean is the nominee, there is no way he will vote for * again.

[Eloriel]

14. I think he can get a range of people who take the time to listen to him

The moderately pro-gun stance is one draw, his universal healthcare paid for by repeaing tax cuts for the wealthy is another, and his blunt, straightforward, clear-speaking style is yet another. He just makes so much SENSE. He doesn't talk fancy. He doesn't put you to sleep. He just lays it straight out there in terms EVERYone can understand and an awful lot of people can agree with.

We are long since past the time when we needed someone who can put it out there is clear, unambiguous terms so that people can say to themselves, "Yeah. Come to think of it, he's right about that. Different states DO need different gun laws, or none at all." Or, "Yeah, he's right. Our jobs are disappearing. I haven't gotten a raise in 5 years, and we still don't have good healthcare. Guess voting repug all this time hasn't done so much for me after all."

He won't get ALL of George Bush's voters, but I think he can make a pretty good dent. PLUS, he's already proving he can bring in NEW voters, formerly apathetic, apolitical people who have finally found someone to get excited about, someone to believe in.

Eloriel

[loyalsister]

28. I agree

This is it!---

"I don't want to win without the South. I want to go to the South, and I'm going to say to white guys that drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals (and gun racks) on the back of their car, "We want your vote too, because your kids don't have health insurance either." (Howard Dean March 15, 2003)

This is an inclusive strategy for people who have been talked into voting against their self interests for way too long.
One thing I like about it is that it is totally consistant with the rest of his message regarding states rights. He has also been planting another great message. This administration has put nearly every state in the Union in dire straits. They have demonstrated a total disrespect for these states. Every single one of these states should be calling for a regime change after getting screwed like this.
If Democrats can adopt states rights AND the gun issue, pukes could be in real trouble.
I think the gun issue definitely has a positive effect for Dean, here in Missouri.
As MO goes so goes the country for the past 40+ years.

[DemPopulist]

15. No

Unless you're talking about Hunter Thompson.

I've known a lot of gun owners. A few have been really cool guys that just liked guns but had liberal views anyway, some of them more liberal than me even. But the vast majority of rural gun owners are people that just disagree with the Democratic party - or what they perceive as the Democratic party - on damn near anything: gay rights, abortion, affirmative action, "big guv'ment", you name it. They buy into that whole view of the Democrats as being p-whipped by the "Feminazis" and excepting his stance on guns, the only way Dean could epitomize what they dislike about the Democrats more is if his name were Hilary Clinton. The only way you win *some* of them is if, as in the case of Bill Clinton, you nominate someone they can remotely relate to, like Edwards, Graham, Clark, (maybe) Gephardt.

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. Hello? My husband, big time believer in the NRA-I forgave him a long

time ago. He loves Dean...so yeah, he can. My husband's a Kentucky boy. I use his thoughts on politics a lot when I want to see where the fence sitters are at.

[Eloriel]

19. Cool. I hope you'll share more of your husband's thoughts with us

I really think there are a LOT of "rural" people who will really like Dean. Glad your husband's one of them!

Eloriel

[ScreamingMeemie]

30. You betcha! When we first got together he was pretty damn conservative

except he has always been pro choice. (funny,eh?) As I have begun avidly searching the internet, he's done a 180. In March, his thought was let's see what happens...Now, he's bringing printouts to his Freeper coworkers... I am so proud...sniffle

[havocmom]

42. Count Havocdad in there too

He has been reading a bit and likes what he sees regarding Dean. He is an old school republican, fiscal conservative consititionalist type. Open minded and progressive on matters of human relations and developement; definately sees through the BS of the ruling/rich class and knows they exist by holding down the masses. Abhors ignorance and hubris. Loves kids and animals. Works to improve the environment AND find ways for humans and ecosystems to flourish together.

He really hates it (grabs for antacids) when the media uses the terms Homeland Security and/or Patriot Act. He recognises Brown Shrits when he sees them.

He is a memeber of the NRA and a gun owner. A lot of Dems need to check their preconcieved notions at the cloakroom door and just try to get the message out. The audience might be bigger and more varied than some would envision!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

17. Baucus has been reelected twice since being targeted by the NRA

Baucus has been reelected twice since being targeted by the NRA for his assault weapons ban vote. Any Democrat with non-extreme views on the gun issue has a chance, here in Montana anyway.

[Blue-Jay]

20. Speaking AS a liberal gun owner..

I'd have to say that yes, Dean's stance on gun control will likely win over a significant amount of voters. One of the biggest lies (among many) that the Republicans have perpetuated is that Democrats want to take away our guns. Sure, there are a handful Dems out there who are in favor of no one being able to own a gun, but much of the voting public doesn't realize that any legislation in favor of banning guns would NEVER pass.

INSTACHECK is the way to go on this issue, and it baffles me that the NRA is so vehemently opposed to it. I suppose it's the old tired "Give 'em an inch...." argument, but it still doesn't hold water.

If there were some magical way to make all guns disappear, I'd be one of the happiest men on the planet. Sure, I'd miss going to the range and blasting the shit out of a taget with my Ruger, but it would be for the best. However, the proverbial horse is already out of the barn in America regarding guns. They're not going away, and trying to pass laws to MAKE them go away won't work.

Why do we have so many gun-related crimes, compared to other countries? Simple. It's greed. A national mentality steeped in "I'm gonna get mine at any cost" that has gotten progressively worse, with no end in sight. Greed is the reason that so many live in poverty, and greed is the reason that too many of the impoverished resort to armed robbery and murder. They've been conditioned to believe that fast money is the way to go.

I was gonna rant more, but I'll stop boring everyone now. Remember to tip your waitresses.

[Egnever]

23. Wow you read my mind!

Love the tip your waitress comment too !

[JayS]

27. I'm not sure what you mean by Instacheck. I have never heard...

...of that. If you are referring to NICS, the National Instant Check System, the NRA is all for that; I would not be a member if they weren't for it.

And speaking as a Texan, Dean has a chance here. At least when he talks he actually says something, a rarity for a politician.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. I suppose he could win over voters for whom the right to keep and

bear arms is the only issue but how common are such voters? (That's a rhetorical question. I don't know how many voters hold that position.) And if it's their only issue why would they go against Bush*? Presumably such voters all voted for Dim Son in 2000. Is there a reason for them to change in 2004?

I agree that anti-gun positions have hurt Democrats in many areas and think Dean's position is more in line with many rank and file Dems.

[dsc]

34. It isn't their only issue but it is a dealbreaker

In other words those voters will vote against a gun control candidate virtually no matter what. But once that issue is percieved as being met they then vote on economics or some other issue. That is how he will get their votes.

[havocmom]

43. Hear, hear!

Well stated! 100% on the mark. Some Dems need a wake up call that these folks are not 'single issue voters'. But they will stop listening if gun control is the first thing they hear. And that is what the neo-cons use to shut off the volumn. Neuter that issue and the rest of the message might get a fair hearing.

[northernsoul]

47. or how many just stay home on election day?

I think that there's a big mass of rural voters out there who skip voting alltogether because while they know the Pukes aren't doing them any favors, they've been convinced that if the Dems win the ATF will kick down their door the next morning to take their deer rifle away. I think Dean could motivate a lot of these folks to show up next November and pull the lever for him.

[JayS]

37. I generally don't vote for candidates whose version of gun...

...control is contrary to my own but then again I'm in Texas so the issue rarely comes up. :) (We did lose a good Democratic Governor over the issue though.) Most gun control in this State consists of locking up those that use a weapon in the commission of a crime.

The reason I vote against candidates on their gun control stance does not really have anything to do with guns at all. When I hear a politician talking about demanding that people who follow the rules follow some new ones but is not addressing the fact that we have gang members raking in the cash that the War on (Some) Drugs brings in and shooting up the town...I go looking for a different candidate.

Dean and Edwards are my two favorites now. Dean lost a little bit of favor in my eyes when he said he will oppose S. 659 but he seems to have backed off on that.

[Set]

22. he could...

if he stuck to his original position on gun control as Governor of Vt...

In other words, if he caves to the shrilly anti-gun lobby, NFW.

[Township75]

24. Looks like the answer is an overwhelming "YES!"

Except for the first 2 posters.

And that is typical for our party. This issue is important only to a fringe element of our party. They may be loud but they don't represent the majority.

Dean could win a ton of votes with this. THis could make PA and MI safe, and maybe give us WV, TN, and LA.

And it would be nice to have at least one candidate in the pres race that supports the BIll of Rights

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. As a resident of Michigan, I have to say, it has been incredible watching

the size of our meetup jump from 10 to 20 to 70 to we can't even use the room we were renting anymore. He's got a lot of backing here in the Detroit area.

Go Dean!!!

[Township75]

31. Hey, you don't sound so grumpy.

Must be the Dean campaign.

[Northwind]

32. Anyone who thinks

That al gun owner types are "solidly republican" needs to wake up. They have no allegiance to a given party, their master is the NRA. I have personally converted 4 gun-nuts in Texas to Dean by pointing out that the NRA endorsed him when he ran for Governor of Vermont, and also telling them his position on gun control. Get them going on the idea of a great economy and a President that their boys' club (NRA) likes, and they start salivating.

[Texican]

33. Gun Nut

I am one of those hated gun nuts. Neither I nor many of my gun nut friends will vote for Bush under any circumstances. He is a liar and we don't trust him. A lot of his support does come from the gun lobby, but from people who think he is an honest and fair pres,(gag.) I joined the NRA as a life memeber 30 years ago and have disagreed with it as much as I have agreed with it. So have many of it's memebers. The Officers are a bunch of money grubbing self centered country club types. Dean will definatly erode Bush's base.

[Hep]

36. He's after the rural vote, but

you shouldn't get the impression that it is important to win over conservatives. What's really important is getting your voting base to the polls.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. Don't Dean and Kerry have identical stands on the gun issue?

Don't Dean and Kerry have identical stands on the gun issue? I have looked at both their websites and it looks to me like their positions are the same.

[sangha]

40. It's possible

Aside from civil unions, Dean has taken very few of the liberal positions that might alienate those voters. I don't think he can get the votes of those who are truly conservative, but if they don't view Dean as much of a threat to their values, and if they are sick of Bush*'s lies, they might just stay home.

[Sirius_on]

41. No, Dean supports gay rights. Thats a big no no in Redneck land

nt

[GumboYaYa]

46. There are an awful lot of BillyBob's out there

who have found out that they have a sister, brothre, cousin, or friend who is gay. That is not as big an issue as you think. For the ones to whom it is an issue, they won't be voting Dem anyway.

If Dean shows up the first day of dove season with a shotgun and a well worn hunting outfit and bags a bunch of doves, that is wotrth two-to-three points in most southern states by itself. If he goes deer hunting, bags a deer, and lets himself get bloodied he wins the South in a landslide.

[northernsoul]

48. not necessarily so

first off, making blanket references to all rural people as rednecks won't help anything.

I have a lot of family who live in rural Minnesota and most of them are at least tacitly pro-gay in "live and let live" mindset. It's just that the fundies are the only ones in rural areas talking about it, so it sounds like that's the only opinion being held out there in "the heartland".

[dobak]

44. It will help him make Minnesota a safe bet

Guns are a big deal here and I think Dean's stand on gun control will really help him in Minnesota.

Hell, I would even be so bold as to say that it could help him in my former home state of North Dakota, which voted solidly for Bush, but has 2 Democrats in the Senate and their Rep. is a Democrat.

[northernsoul]

49. hi Dobak!

ya sure, you betcha it'll help in places like the Range - and we're gonna need every vote we can get next year to keep MN safely in the "blue" column.