There is so much polarization on national issues

[searchingforlight]

How do you deal with friends and relatives who vehemently defend Bush and the Repugs. How has it effected your friendships and family relations? Has anyone lost or let go of any relationships because of it. If not, how do you respect their intelligence and views?

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. I have this is a virtual civil war

but when one said I was nuts, I knew it was
time to let go of that friendship

[bobd]

2. My Brother is a Fundie

I've stopped talking to/with him since the great and glorious war. He's part of the problem now. He can go fuck himself.

[mkregel]

11. This issue is a war among the fundies...

My brother is a fundie too - but he's a lefty. In fact the only lefty in a soccer-mom fundamentalist pro-Bush LA-area church. Times are tough for him considering this. He gets a lot of dirty looks for his "What Would Jesus Drive?" sticker on his car.

Strangely, he says there are a lot of other fundies who are also lefties. You see, they read the bible and note where it talks about "turning one's cheek" and "rendering unto ceasar." They just aren't as loud as the wingnut fundies.

[GBD4]

3. Simple!

I just keep shoving pro-liberalism statements down their throats til they are so sick of politics (and of me!) that they just keep quiet about their support for Dubya (and even Savage and Jeb yikes!). I would never let a friendship go by the wayside over politics. I know very staunch Repubs but there is more to a person than his politics (if you can just ignore the Jeb poster hanging in the front window of the house :shrug: ).

[searchingforlight]

7. I am sure that many of the people I know are Repugs and support the Bushie

The problem as I see it is one of who they are as core beings. I have been able to disagree with them in the past but could see that there was thought, investigation, soul searching and intelligence in their positions. I don't see that now and that affects my ability to respect their positions.

I cannot respect anyone who gets their soundbites from FAUX and Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.

The issue is further clouded by the Conservative Christian ethic. We no longer have common ground and I have lost respect for them.

[cthrumatrix]

4. This is just perfect for the corporations...they could give a shit......

We cry and moan between democrat and republican and tit for tat.

Meanwhile we are losing jobs, healthcare, social security (TBD) and our civil liberties.

They sit back (globalists) and are laughing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I Am In Sales And Most of My Clients Are Repugs

I n-e-v-e-r talk politics.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. exactly right

imo, of course. you hit the nail on the head

[OrdinaryTa]

6. The Coarsening of Discourse

During the impeachment debate, House Democrats kept making the point that if this bullshit goes through it will be expensive in terms of comity, the ability to discuss differences of opinion in a calm, reasonable, and still-friendly manner. The impeachment went through anyhow, and a lot of Democrats ended up hating, hating, hating Republicans.

Instead of letting things cool down, the Republicans have turned up the heat. They continued to smear Clinton long after the fact, and instead of being accommodating to Democrats after the Florida screw-up, they sneer Nyah nyah, Sore Loserman. This triumphalism doesn't work for America, and eventually the Republicans themselves are going to see how childish it is.

We now have some real problems. We can't solve them when one half the population is hugely at odds with the other. Bush is not a uniter - we've never been so divided! America is sinking because of Republicans and their extreme partisanship.

For the time being, I don't discuss politics with Republicans, it's far too rancorous. When they get over this Nyah nyah stuff, then we can discuss what collectively we are going to do about our national problems.

Edit: clarity

[GCP]

9. I don't think the country has ever been so divided, it's tearing us apart

Some people blame Watergate and the Nixon resignation; some blame the refusal of the Dems to put Bork on the Supreme Court as the start of all the partisanship.

The Arkansas Project to get rid of Clinton by any means possible was the Right's answer to those previous defeats.

It all came home to roost in Florida 2000. The Repukes had it sewn up with Jeb's finagling of the voting rolls and the Supreme Court weighing in for their guy against centuries of legal precedent of States' Rights over Federal.

Now the "Uniter" in the WH rules over the most polarized electorate I've ever had the misfortune to see.

I don't see any good end to it, other than an alien invasion to pull us all together.

[Clete]

13. Divide and conquer.

This is as old as, well Caesar.

[KCDem]

8. two ways:

with current friends (I don't really talk to any distant rellies, and all the close ones are Dem), I just don't talk politics. No point in ruining an otherwise-close relationship with stuff that is so divisive... especially if all they do is vote. Which is all they do, if that.

Then, in selecting new friends: hate to be this way, but I'm outspoken in my quest for liberal friends. Those who like Bush need not apply. Simple as that.

[LoZoccolo]

10. I hang out in a local chat room...

...and since the war I've been posting like, a line from a news article and then the URL. I do it probably less than three times a day, and I get stuff from people to "give it a rest" and "nobody really cares", etcetera.

Which means I'm WINNING!

It's gotta bug them that they never have anything to say about the stuff I post, or are too ashamed of their reasons for disagreeing with it to say anything. It's gotta bug them that I can bring up so much stuff out of the news - not just editorials or partisan rants, but news - that reminds them that it was all a big mistake, that the Republicans are taking advantage of people, etcetera, and that they can never do this sort of thing to defend their positions. It's gotta be embarassing to them. Which is good. If they have really lame reasons for being Republicans, like they feel they should be to gain some sense that they're responsible independant people or part of the ruling class or they believe in all the welfare myths or they don't give a fuck about people from the middle east, they should be embarassed and ashamed. They should be reminded of the scum-ass things they think about the world. They should be exposed to something other than people like Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter who tell them what they want to hear.

As I say...if it bothers you, /you need to think about why/.

And if you need to resort to thuggish tactics to deflect criticism, /you need to think about why/.

[leftyandproud]

12. My little sister is a hardcore libertarian..

She agrees with Dubya 90% of the time but is open to some democratic issues I bring up...very smart, but disagrees completely with the left on all economic issues...She is very well read too so debating can be a pain. We do have fun occasionally but nobody EVER wins the arguments, so usually I don't even bother. Family is family. I think you can separate it from politics fairly easily.

[OrdinaryTa]

17. Libertarian Smartasses

I know the type. They have an answer for everything, but they don't have any real-world experience to temper their views with realism. Some of them like to argue for unregulated capitalism and claim that Microsoft brings us nothing but good things. In fact Microsoft steals other people's ideas and suppresses entrepreneurship.

There are many problems with libertarian theory. I think it's a fancy rationale for selfishness. There's no way of telling what kind of damage they'd cause if they got their way. How about cutting down 1,000 year old redwoods? Libertarians defend that!

[LoZoccolo]

18. I think that arguing with a libertarian...

...could always come down to "So? Why should /I/ care?" on thier part. This, of course, could be very frustrating...but you can always tuck them saying that into your pocket and next time they need help be like "well I /could/ leave you stranded..." You can go on like this 200+ times or until they get mad at you and tell you to stop, and then you can be like "so I win?"

:)

Then do it again and be like "why should /I/ care?"

:silly:

[SharonAnn]

14. On lots of issues, the majority actually agree.

When you talk about the issue in terms of pros and cons, most Americans agree. It's when the issue is reframed that the differences occur. And guess who reframes theissues?

[proud patriot]

16. I only stay quiet around my grandparents

Everyone else is fair game ..

Some have left only to come crawling back some haven't come back.
others have registered Dem from either not voting or voting repuke.

My parents have never been prouder of me , I'm finally doing what
I love . Getting published and fighting the good fight where they
left off .

Out of respect I won't bring politics up at parties , but once
someone else does that's it ...I'm in a debate for the rest of the
party .

I'm finally getting a hold of my emotions and striking hard
and letting my opponents lose it instead of me .

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

19. No one in my family dares to debate me.

I'm smarter, better informed, and a bit keener rhetorically. So I beat up on my Dad when he spews repub. crap and slap my sister around when she spouts uninformed knee-jerk liberal garbage (her ends aren't garbage, but her means are pathetic). I inform them of the arguments they SHOULD be making but that they're either too uninformed to be able to or just a bit too dense.

My ultimate position is this: you want to believe "X" is true; therefore you will process information Y,Z,and R this way and exclude A,B,and C. I will take all of this into account, analyze it, look at my own a priori assumptions, analyze the a priori assumptions that inform those assumptions, show my father and sister how they repeatedly delude themselves in this way, get them to work backwards to their assumptions, show how either a) their assumptions are fallacious, or b) their ultimate position is contradictory to their assumptions.

Example, I destroyed my father's support of the war on the grounds Bush tries to give (war on terror, WMD, etc.). I give him the facts, show him how he can't dispute it, and then tell him the argument he really wants to make: this means I define for him the global politics of PNAC, oil politics, and how America is really only looking out for its own interests. I tell him that if this is his position, fine. But don't make the WMD argument because then he really looks stupid. He and I can then go on to debate geo-politics. And I can enjoy destroying him in yet another arena.

But, and here's the important part, he and I always hug kiss before bed. In my family, politics is politics; family is family (and this is always my a priori assumption when arguing politics--that the actual human relationship is ALWAYS more important than any human constructed mechanism--which means I ALWAYS WIN any conservative/liberal debate; what, is my father going to tell his son that politics is more important than his own son, which would then undercut everything I have ever observed in my father's actions throughout his life?).