Clinton on Larry King.. maybe he was right.

[MoonGod]

(I posted this in another thread, but I was hoping for more feedback on this)

... I've been saying all along that we need to be VERY clear that the deception/misuse of intelligence issue is bigger than just the "16 words". If it becomes JUST about those 16 words, there a dozen ways they can spin it, and we might even wind up with egg on our faces.

Also, he's right about the fact that we need to be thinking about the larger issues of domestic security (are we safer?), global security (is the world safer/more stable?), rebuilding Iraq, addressing Korea, etc.

The "16 words" have provided a great wedge issue to get people asking questions again. I'm not saying everybody should drop that issue, but as long as people are asking questions, let's start asking the ones that REALLY count.

[Maple]

1. Well Clinton

has already defused you I see. I imagine it will have the same effect everywhere.

Just when things were starting to move.

[MoonGod]

3. Defused???

Maybe you missed this thread:

http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=64918&mesg_id=64918&page=

Did you even read what I said? Do you REALLY think it's a good idea to sit and focus on 16 words? Do you REALLY think "16 words" is going to carry the Dems to victory in 2004?

I don't, and I want Bush out. His support is plummetting. This is the perfect time to start asking all of the questions we've had over the past 2 years that nobody wanted to hear because of how wonderful they all thought our Fearless Leader was.

I'm not defused. I have just begun to fight.

[are_we_united_yet]

5. I'm afraid

I have to agree with you. As much as I enjoy see * make a f_cking a mockery of the presidency, it may be gilding the lilly at this point. A good strategy is pelt BushCo with everthing they've f_cked up. Its not like its a small list.

[ewagner]

9. That and also........

If we hit them with the entire pantheon of screwups, lies, and embarrassments, we can burn out the spin machine. This is sort of what they did to Clinton. They made charge after charge so he was so busy fighting off the alligators, he didn't have time to drain the swamp. That's what we've got to do to Rove & Co. Don't let them off the hook now or ever. Challenge them on evereything and anything. Blast a headline a day if we have to.

This may be more effective than ever because the "16 words" showed a chink in the chimps armour (sorry couldn't resist the alliteration) and now people are starting to listen. The screwups, the lies will all have an audience now that they never had before.

Don't concentrate on one lie. Go for one lie a day!


:gr: :gr: :gr: :gr:

[julka]

13. of course!

that's why they desperately repeat: case closed; move on

they think by saying it like a mantra that it's going to work, and it still might, because it has, EVERY time since 1999, or before, if you care to go into the governor crap.

the press refuses to ask ANY serious questions about this junta, and a constant barrage of new material is key.

They LUST after a concentration on those sixteen words, because they think they can set the paramaters for debate that way.

they have a very few talking points, repeated endlessly by the viral entities sent out to spread them in the media. doesn't matter WHO it is, from Eagleburger to Dole to Kissinger to Bo Derek (well, she's too dim to attempt it, she just says how she loves those men who are losing body parts!).

if they get away with limiting the scope of discussion, they win again, just as they have EVERY time so far

[MoonGod]

16. Exactly!

They LUST after a concentration on those sixteen words, because they think they can set the paramaters for debate that way

That's how they've done everything so far, by making up the rules by which the game is played. Right now it's clear that the rule they're making up is "This issue is about only 16 Words". We'll be shooting ourselves in the foot if we play by that rule.

[sandnsea]

19. Paula Jones

Paula Jones is the 16 words. Without her case going forward, there would have been no reason to investigate Monica Lewinsky. The 16 words are like that. The debate shouldn't be reduced to that, but it does have to start with that.

And Clinton just said it's not such a big deal, it was just a little mistake that can happen and we should focus on rebuilding Iraq. And I thought you agreed. Without the 16 words, there's no chink to move forward with.

The Democrats can't just get up tomorrow and say never mind Niger, let's go look at aluminum tubes or al qaeda. It won't work, that will absolutely look partisan. I guess Howard Dean will have to come out tomorrow and quote the good parts of Clinton's remarks and then just say Clinton was wrong. These words were a big deal. And I only say Howard Dean because he's the most likely one to do it.

[Maple]

12. Yes, focus on the 16 words

Not to the exclusion of all else...but if you whitewash them, you haven't GOT anything else.

Because they can all be passed off then ...with the help of the Dems of all people...as understandable mistakes. Little whoopsies any president could easily make.

This kind of....'let's be fair, let's be balanced, let's not say anything nasty, let's give Bush the benefit of the doubt'....is how the Dems ended up voting for the invasion in the first place.

Like Letterman said the other night, "I was thinking about this. The country right now is at war. Our economy is bad. $455 billion deficit and the Democrats are saying, 'How are we going to beat this guy?'"

Well, this ain't the way.

[Frances]

2. Are we safer today than we were four years ago?

I think that will be the question in 2004.

The Republicans are sure that they will win on the security issue and polls show that the majority of Americans think that Republicans are stronger on terrorism than Democrats.

I think that's nonsense. 9/11 happened on Bush's watch and after his month-long vacation.

I think that if I were running for President I would say I won't take month long vacations and I will use intelligence to protect the American people and not to get us into messes that cost American lives unnecessarily.

[shance]

17. Enabling is nurturing evil and allowing wrongdoers to escape consequences

No doubt Bill Clinton let us down and in essence may not realize but his rationalizing this statement has one more time emboldened George W. Bush ONE MORE TIME, and allowed one more time for Americans and Bush to believe he is right and justified in his actions. And, which makes it one more step we will have to walk up again to move forward.

When leaders protect and defend the indefensible, they ultimately leave their constituents vulnerable.

Im afraid the Right wing were victorious in their consistent, maniacal crusade against the Clintons. They were allowed to render them pretty powerless. This is our fault as well.

They invaded every form of sacred privacy of the Clintons, they interrogated with every method possible, they lied without a conscience and spread untrue stories on a regular basis, they used every tool to humiliate and block both of the Clintons effectiveness, they took them to trial again and again, and maligned and engaged in such horrific forms of psychological warfare on both Bill and Hillary, they have in effect, killed the spirits of two very idealistic and spirited people.

So with that, you have two politicians that on the outside look fine, on the inside they are broken and scarred, and perhaps at this point a little cowering, certainly playing it safe. And I believe most of us would easily be in that same position, that is, if we would have even survived what the Clintons were able to endure.

I am HIGHLY disappointed with Clinton tonight. On the other hand, I think we are part of the problem as well. If we dont FIGHT like hell for our leaders and stand by their side, and work to defend them when the media is unfair, how in the hell will they be able to constantly get back up after being thrown against the wall repeatedly by some of the thugs in the Republican party?

I have to say Bill and Hillary are, in some ways and even though they are still standing, casualties and examples of what is SO WRONG in this nation. Seems we are at a place where the good guys are being labeled as villains, and the bad guys are labeled as heros. It is SCREWED UP. I woould love to see the Clintons rebound in strength. But in many ways it seems to be we, the DNC and other Dem leaders left them high and dry when they needed us the most.

[CMT]

4. those 16 words were just the beginning

I believe if we ever get investigations we will see much bigger lies. I think Clinton for once should try and keep his trap shut. Democrats are finally showing some spine on this issue and here he comes out and starts this crap of defending the White House. Sometimes I think he does want the Dems to lose in '04 so that the field will be clear for Hillary in '08--I for one am not satisfied to allow this feeble brained chimp another four years.

[MoonGod]

8. Defending the White House?

"And what I think -- again, I would say the most important thing is we should focus on what's the best way to build Iraq as a democracy? How is the president going to do that and deal with continuing problems in Afghanistan and North Korea?"

These are the big questions. Who else have you seen asking them? When was the last time you saw Afghanistan mentioned?

I'm no big Clinton fan, but I'm glad that he put these questions out there... and that he did so without using inflamatory rhetoric that would instantly cause 40% of the country to tune him out. As a matter of fact, they're probably linking to this story over at Free Republic right now... nodding their heads in agreement while they read those same questions.

[sandnsea]

6. If that doesn't matter, nothing else does either

They had weapons when he left office, that's pretty much what he said. Didn't know what the bombing campaign had done so we may as well just think that weapons that hadn't shown up since 1991 still existed in 2003.

And it doesn't matter if Bush lied to go to war. And it doesn't matter if they pressured the CIA into manipulating evidence. And it doesn't matter if these maniacs have a permanent war plan that will destroy us and the rest of the world. None of it matters.

Because very powerful forces, more powerful than PNAC, wanted the Iraqi oil.

So now we all need to go home like good boys and girls and pretend to elect a President next year.

[MoonGod]

11. Read my post first, please. And don't put words in my mouth.

Did I say "it doesn't matter"? No. So why are you putting those words into my mouth?

It did matter. It still matters. It's mattered so much that Bush's approval ratings are slipping close to 50% and another poll has popped up that has him losing to an unnamed Democrat.

Bush's credibility is already shot. That's why this is the ideal time to start getting other questions out there. People aren't going to buy it now if PrezCo starts babbling about how his faith "sustains" him.

[sandnsea]

15. Clinton's position was it didn't matter

It was just a little mistake. Since you said maybe Clinton was right, I guess I thought you agreed with that. I don't think this timid tip-toe approach to this Administration will work. We won't win on the economy. We won't win on money for firefighters. And we won't win on domestic issues. It's the war on terror, period. And while it certainly is worthwhile to expose Bush's messes in Iraq and Afghanistan, a year is a long time for him to fix them. And he really only needs to fix Iraq because people don't care about Afghanistan. Or maybe he's counting on them not to care about Iraq in 2 months either. That's a very real possibility because I bet there's alot who already don't care about Iraq. Sure, some care soldiers are dying, but not about Iraq. They probably don't even know soldiers are still dying in Afghanistan.

His character has to be seriously impuned, at the least. And his credibility is far from shot, far far from it. There isn't anything more clear to nail him with than the Niger lies. Clinton did say one helpful thing. He got ALL imformation on chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. So the Niger info most certainly should have come to Bush's attention well before any speeches. But if we don't go forward with Niger, there's no reason to expand investigations into the other lies either. And if we can't get this one that is so clear, we'll never get any of the rest of it which is much sketchier.

[TacticalPeek]

7. OurCountryIsBetterThanThis

The Big Dog is just speading a nice, pristine, white, picnic tablecloth over the tiger pit.

He knows nothing about any stakes or poison; never heard of such a thing!

What I was hearing was that Clinton knows what it means to be the president, to be behind the eight ball where the buck really will stop eventually...drip...drip...drip. And that aWol has a giant plateful of horrible, nearly impossible crises, that even Clinton would have to really work at. Don't worry about that little 16-word notalie. HehHeh.

Clinton could never attack, and his analysis must often be diplomatic.

The rest of us have to do the rest.

[robbedvoter]

10. He also said that the SS were right to shove W in a bunker on 9.11

(although then he added: "I think") What is offensive now is the fact that the man with the finger on the button is not allowed to not read papers about nukes. period. Also, this so called 'mistake" was basis for a preemptive war. People died.

[liberalmuse]

14. I'm glad I cut off the tv..

16 words??? Bush repeated that lie over and over and over again, so maybe 16 x 1,000. It's possible you could find he spoke 16 words strung together that weren't a lie since his 2+ years in office, but I doubt it. God, the spin. I don't miss it at all. Almost every thing that bastard has done since he hit the oval office is worth full investigation. If we do not impeach this man, we will be the most hated generation in remembered history.

[WilliamPitt]

18. Didn't he also say "Well, Presidents make mistakes"

i.e. no biggie?

:grr: