Watching tape of Rock The Vote, some observations:

[wndycty]

DISCLAIMER: I AM A MAJOR CLARK SUPPORTER!!!

Now own to my observations:

1) While they may seem frivolous, questions about the Red Sox, Mac or PC are important because they show a connection. The answer is unimportant the ability to connect is.

2) I have said that I will not criticize or label Dean a racist for his Confederate flag comments, however he has a major problem on his hands. He got the living slop beat out of him on the issue. You can criticize Sharpton or Edwards for attacking Dean on this issue or you can listen to them. The points they raised were valid. Dean is so wrapped up in being right on this controversial issue (HE IS!!!) The problem is that he is too damned arrogant (thanks Sharpton for pointing that out) to realize how he offended both African Americans (I am not offended but I know many of my fellow African Americans who are) and the very southern whites he is trying to reach out to (you do not stereotype those you are trying to embrace). In a perfect world most people should understand the spirit in which Dean made his comments. Unfortunately this is not a perfect world. Dean is a great candidate, but he and his supporters should not get defensive in this situation (and others) they should LISTEN, regroup and move on. The more Dean acts if he has nothing to apologize for the more he turns off those who are not already in his camp.

3) CNN played into Clark's hands, as the came out of commercial prior to Clark's video the music bump was OUTKAST, as most of you know Gen. Clark referenced OUTKAST in his video.

This is my first time watching, I will post more as I see more of it. Your thoughts.

[poskonig]

1. I do not believe Dean's flag stand is arrogant.

I believe it is politically calculated, almost Clintonesque if you will.

His campaign has made no mistakes to this date, and given they want to make a stand on this issue of all things, there probably is a reason for it.

[wndycty]

6. Thats good. . .

. . .and if you look at headlines across the country you will find that it is making headlines. Most voters are not aware of what is going on with this the will just hear that Dean is involved in a Confederate flag controversies. Most people who are defending Dean's flag statements are not thinking about other's. The find one or two African Americans who are not offended and they just assume that no African Americans are offended. Hey I offered advice, if you don't want it fine. But this could backfire big time.

[Renew Deal]

11. Here is what I said to my sister last night.

I said that one guy got beat up last night. He wants guys with the confederate flag to vote for him. She said: I'm not voting for a racist. I have my friends to protect.

I said that he isn't a racist but he is ignorant. The point is, she heard two words about it and made the connection. I think there is some of that out there.

[wndycty]

14. That is what Dean and his supporters don't understand. . .

. . .and its a shame because they can kill this controversy so fast. But he and his supporters are so wrapped up in being right, they do not consider those that are offended.

[pruner]

15. ever considered that maybe Dean & his staff know a bit more than you do

I know experts… and you sir, are no expert.

[wndycty]

16. Again. . . .

. . . .how many primaries has Dean won so far? None

We actually do not know how brilliant they are yet. But we do know that headlines across the country are bringing up the flag controversy and as a reporter said this morning regardless of the facts no candidate would ever want to be wrapped up in a Confederate flag controversy.

[Capn Sunshine]

65. I'm not sure WHAT offends you

about a candidate saying we need the guy with the con flag on his pickup to be voting with us too.

[mandyky]

7. Think about it this way

It has been on the front pages for 3 days now, Southerners will hear about Dean and maybe give him a look. They see his stance on gun laws and some other things that might attract them, and go to a meetup or call the HQs.

[wndycty]

10. Southerners will also be offended. . .

. . .that he is stereotyping them as all having Confederate flag decals. Many Dean supporters are so wrapped up in defending him that they are missing an opportunity to turn this thing into a positive issue.

[TLM]

53. Nice pushing of the Clark Corps meme... Dean didn't say ALL southerners

Yet the Clark folks keep telling this lie and you are trying so hard to spin this as being some horrible offensive to all these people... yet the only people I see who are offended are either supporters of other candiates who are just full of crap, or people who are reacting not to what DEan said but to someone's spin on what he said.

Dean never said all southerners have a confederate flag in their pick up truck... he said he wants to reach out to the ones who do, the working class poor white folks in teh south who have been lied to by republicans for years.

Dean said he wants to bring these groups together over their shared goals. How is that anything but fantastic? Dean wants to undermine the republican southern strategy and all the other dems and their supporters can do is try to spin this as something racist.

If Dr. King was running, you can bet your ass these jerks would be claiming that he was a racist because he said he had a dream of the sons of slaves and the sons of slave owners living and working together... then they'd accuse Dr. King of being sexist, because he said sons and not daughters.

[slinkerwink]

2. from a black supporter on the Dean blog

RE: Confederate Flag issue

As a black voter and Dean supporter, I would once again like to commend Dr. Dean for bringing this issue to the fore, and urge him: DON'T BACK DOWN!!

DON'T APOLOGIZE!

This issue will not go away, but Dr. Dean needs to stay strong and not waver. It took balls of steel for him to come as far as he has with it, and to not knuckle under to Sharpton and Edwards.

I would prefer that he not even repeat the line about "I think the Confederate flag is a loathsome symbol..." because that is an insult to the very folks he is trying to reach out to.

He might say: "I understand why many African-Americans and descendants of Union Army soldiers would be offended by the flag, BUT we need to put the Civil War behind us and unite around our common interests...." etc., etc.

The primary theme of interracial solidarity on the issues of economic and social justice is key. Getting this right --- in the South --- is ESSENTIAL for a decisive Democratic victory in 2004 and beyond.

Compared to that, the Rebel flag controversy is trifling.

GO DEAN!!

[poskonig]

5. I agree.

If Dean waffles, he'll look weak, offending everyone and appealing to no one. But if he holds his ground, there will be a political payoff in the end. The trick is indeed to somehow get southern whites on board without pissing off all of the black people.

[bearfartinthewoods]

22. and his approach to getting southerners on board is

to stereotype them as biggots?

yeah...that'll work...

if someone had told me there was a way to piss of both blacks and southern whites with the same comment, i wouldn't have believed them.

bravo Dr Dean..breaking new ground.

[maha]

25. When did Dean say southerners were bigots?

I must have missed that part. Do you have a link?

[wndycty]

35. He implies that. . .

. . .by saying defining the voters he is trying to reach out to as having Confederate flags on their pick-ups. Don't forget how much Democrats have painted the flag of a racist symbol.

[maha]

37. I don't see the implication.

What you are saying is that YOU assume Dean was implying something about racism, because YOU see the Confederate flag only as a symbol of racism.

First off, speaking as someone related to half the white trash in the Ozarks, I can assure you that the Confederate flag symbolizes different things to different people. A lot of guys who slap confederate flags on their pickups are NOT white supremacists or Ku Klux Klan members, believe it or not.

What Dean is talking about is the phenomenon of white working-class southerners who vote for Republicans because of cultural issues but who are being hurt badly by Republican economic policies. This is a vital matter to the future of the Democratic Party, and if we can't talk about it because we go into knee-jerk mode at the sight of a Confederate flag, we're just screwing ourselves.

[wndycty]

40. You don't see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism?

Or more importantly you think there is something wrong with those of who do? Wow!!!! Talk about disconnected.

[mzmolly]

46. Jesse Jackson Jr. is disconnected too.

"Normally, rather than directly confronting poor and working class white southerners with a strong economic agenda, Democrats have tried to imitate Republicans on many of these social issues. It is good that we have a candidate offering hope to the South with an economic agenda. It is Dr. Dean who is reminding us that the combination of poor and working class blacks and whites, north and south, united in coalition around a common economic agenda of jobs, health care, education and housing will constitute a winning strategy in 2004," concluded Cong. Jackson.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10232&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1301

[wndycty]

52. Dean supporters pimp Jackson. . .

. . .and I surprised? No. Disappointed? yes. My comment about disconnection was towards those who do not see the Confederat flag as a symbold of racism. It is.

Your quoting my Congressman has no reference to the Confederate flag. I would love to hear Congressman Jackson's position on the Confederate flag, I am quite confident they will reflect my positions on the flag.

Everytime they throw the Congressman Jackson quote in my face I wonder if Dean supporters believe that the Congressman's role is to flak for Dean on racial issues, the same way Bush uses Condi and Colin.

If you are paying any attention you will know that I do not have a problem with Dean's comment, however I think he should have stated it differently and should apologize. My comment about disconnection only related to the Confederate flag being a racist symbol.

[TLM]

70. If you want to know what Jackson said about the flag... read the link.

Jackson Praises Dr. Dean on Bringing Economic Agenda To South

Statement By Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr.

Saturday, November 1, 2003

"I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

March on Washington

August 28, 1963

"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

Dr. Howard Dean

DNC Winter meeting

February 21, 2003

Congressman Jesse L. Jackson, Jr., today said, "This year we celebrated the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's famous speech in front of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963. Forty years later, Dr. Howard Dean is reminding us that the great task of uniting the northern black and white urban poor and working class, with the southern black and white rural poor and working class around common economic issues -- good health care, high quality schools, and affordable housing -- is the key to wrestling our democracy away from the race-oriented Republican right-wing.

"Democrats were not competitive in the South in 2000, and we have struggled to thrive, and in some instances survive, since Richard Nixon and the Republican Party began using their race-based 'southern strategy' in 1968. The use of race, cultural and social issues have served to distract voters by keeping the focus off of economic issues has been the basic strategy of Bush and the Republicans in the South. That's why they make wedge issues out of prayer in school, the Ten Commandments on public buildings, civil unions, the false allegation that Democrats will take away hunter's gun rights, choice for women, the controversy of having the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Confederate Flag. Lest we forget, the Confederate Flag is the Democratic Party's historic contribution to the South, and current Democratic candidates have not been able to figure out how to come to grips with their own historic symbol.
_________________________________________________________


As Rep Jackson points out... you are doing exactly what he says, trying to demagogue the flag issue to intimidate those on the other side, rather than reach out to them based on out shared goals like healthcare and good schools.

Howard Dean, and millions of people all across the country are sick of your way of doing things. We're tired of democrats who have made a career out of playing the other side of the southern strategy, trying to foment conflicts and racial tension, when we should be trying to reach out and find common grounds that transcend the color of our skin.

[wndycty]

71. So Congressman Jackson and his father. . .

. . .don't have a problem with the flag? Thats news to me.

[TLM]

82. Sure they have a problems with the flag....

such as it being flown by the state government.

But they do not have a problem with Dean daring to mention the flag in reference to the poor white working class southern folks who have been fooled into voting repuke against their own best interests for 30 years, and who we should be reaching out to and trying to build connections with based on shared goals, rather than continuing to foment racial conflict.

[maha]

50. Of course it's a symbolf of racism.

But it's not ONLY a symbol of racism. It symbolizes different things to different people.

Please pay attention to what people actually say and not jump to conclusions.

If you want to actually know what I think about the Confederate flag, start with this article, which was linked on Buzzflash last January:

http://www.mahablog.com/2003.10.26_arch.html#1067747912515


For my take on Dean's Confederate flag remark, go here:

http://www.mahablog.com/2003.11.02_arch.html#1067995052124

If, after you've read these little editorials, you want to discuss what I ACTUALLY THINK about the Confederate flag issue, as opposed to what you ASSUME I think, let me know.

[wndycty]

55. You own words from post #37

"What you are saying is that YOU assume Dean was implying something about racism, because YOU see the Confederate flag only as a symbol of racism."

Now why exactly did you capitalize YOU twice? How should I interpret: "because YOU see the Confederate flag only as a symbol of racism."?

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

60. So are you saying that I am wrong to view it as racist?

Again what are you saying?

[maha]

64. ARGH!

I am saying you are wrong to see it ONLY as racist.

Note the word: ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY.

What the Confederate flag synbolizes depends a lot on context. If it's being waved by a sheet-wearing Klansman it means one thing; in a museum or memorial, it means something else. But the question is, what do the pickup truck guys think it means? And for a lot of them it means something other than white supremacy, and characterizing all southern men with the Confederate flag on their pickup trucks as racists is just, well, ignorant. Some are, some aren't.

PLEASE READ THIS:

http://www.mahablog.com/2003.10.26_arch.html#1067747912515

PLEASE READ THIS:

http://www.mahablog.com/2003.11.02_arch.html#1067995052124

[wndycty]

67. Well I do only see it as racist. . .

. . .and I apologize to you for being too ignorant to only see it as racist. Too many people of my race were lynched with it flying. I apologize for not seeing as anything other than racist.

I should shut up and let the nice white people sort this out. I am sorry for stepping out of line.

[maha]

72. I give up.

I grew up in a Confederate flag stronghold and I've been fighting against display of Confederate flags most of my life. But I also understand that the Confederate flag has lots of meaning to southerners that really doesn't have anything to do with racism, and display of the C flag on a pickup truck is no proof that the driver is a bigot.

The fact that YOU refuse to understand there are other points of view than YOURS does not make ME ignorant.

[wndycty]

74. Hey I was the one who said I was ignorant. . .

. . .I am sorry that I am too ignorant to see it as anything but racist. This is an issue that I choose not to be so enlightened on. The Confederate flag is nothing but a racist symbol and I do not apologize for my ignorance on that issue.

[TLM]

77. The KKK also uses the symbol of the cross during lynchings....

So would you say that the cross is ONLY racist?

And why is the confederate flag any more of a racist emblem than old glory? The US flag was created at a time when slavery was national policy... so clearly the stars and stripes is ONLY a racist symbol.

No wait people put flags on their cars during 9-11, so clearly the flag ONLY means 9-11.

You want to limit a symbol to one meaning, that of racism, because a small group of racist people used the flag... ignoring all the other meanings or all the other folks who use the flag as a symbol of rebellion or as an anti-federal government statement or just as a symbol of the south.

I mean if you fly the stars and stripes, as a symbol of pride in your nation, does that mean you must therefore also support the policy of slavery and the oppression of women and the slaughter of native Americans that is associated with the history of our nation?

If not, then why must a southerner who flies the stars and bars as a symbol of pride in their region, must also support the history of racism and slavery in their region?

[wndycty]

86. Be honest with yourself . . .

The Confederate flag's connection to racism is 100 times stronger than the cross's connection to the Klan. . .you are reaching for straws.

[TLM]

110. Says who... When I think of the Klan... a buring cross is the image

I think of in relation to them... not the reb flag.


Maybe you need to be honest with yourself and stop trying to act as if your view of the rebel flag is the only possible view and the only possible reason for flying it.

and why can't you answer my question...

If you fly the stars and stripes, as a symbol of pride in your nation, does that mean you must therefore also support the policy of slavery and the oppression of women and the slaughter of native Americans that is associated with the history of our nation?

If not, then why must a southerner who flies the stars and bars as a symbol of pride in their region, must also support the history of racism and slavery in their region?

[wndycty]

115. Huh. . .

When most people see the Confederate flag they think southern racism.

We most people see the cross the DO NOT automatically think Klan.

[TLM]

118. So you speak for most poeple now... why can't you answer my question.

If you fly the stars and stripes, as a symbol of pride in your nation, does that mean you must therefore also support the policy of slavery and the oppression of women and the slaughter of native Americans that is associated with the history of our nation?

If not, then why must a southerner who flies the stars and bars as a symbol of pride in their region, must also support the history of racism and slavery in their region?


"When most people see the cross the DO NOT automatically think Klan."

So you admit that even a symbol as racist and tied to the klan as the burning cross, is an image that has OTHER meranings that are not racist? So why can't you admit this is also true for the flag?

Seems to me you have a nice little double standard in place just to attack Dean.

[wndycty]

119. So basically you are putting up a defense of the Confederate flag?

:kick:

[lastliberalintexas]

76. I do

But many people in the South do not. You risk electoral failure for several generations by treating them as though they ARE racists. But you don't live in the South, so it's easy for you to paint us Southern Dems into a corner by attacking these people, huh?

[TLM]

62. HA Maha, we're probably related....

My kin folk reside in those Ozarks as well....

What these CLark and Kerry supporters are trying to spin is that Dean was saying ALL southerners are confederate flag waving racists, and that Dean wants to cozy up to those racists.

Now, you and I know from first hand experience that a lot of these country boys put confederate flags on their cars as an anti-government or anti-authority rebel thing, that has nothing to do with race. I sure wouldn't say these guys are the most racially sensitive, but I wouldn't go so far as you call them racists, and they are far from KKKers or skinheads.

The fact is that Dean was reaching out to these poor working class white southern guys who have been voting republican because they've been sold a bill of goods by the republicans that afirmative action and welfare are responsable for all the their problems. And these folks are starting to wake up to the fact that the republicans have been lying to them.

It seems the only folks being offended by what Dean said are the supporters of other candidates, or folks reacting not to what Dean said but the spin someone else put on it.

[maha]

66. Hey, cousin! (g)

"Now, you and I know from first hand experience that a lot of these country boys put confederate flags on their cars as an anti-government or anti-authority rebel thing, that has nothing to do with race. I sure wouldn't say these guys are the most racially sensitive, but I wouldn't go so far as you call them racists, and they are far from KKKers or skinheads."

Exactly.

[SayitAintSo]

95. You make me laugh .... good way of putting it...

As a southerner ... some of these guys just don't get it. We know what Dean MEANT to say...fer crissakes... NOW He's got a pile of stink on his shoe that will be assaulting his olfactories for a good while now ... doncha think ?

[bearfartinthewoods]

20. forgive me for being cynical but

it's not really that hard to claim you are black on a blog, is it?

the confederate flag hasn't been a trifling issue for the last decade.
i don't see anything that would explain the issue's demotion in most people's eyes.

[pruner]

3. as I stated in another thread last night

Dean's debate performance will hurt his campaign just as much as, if not more than, his Meet the Press appearance did.

[bearfartinthewoods]

26. i cut him slack on the MTP thing to some degree because

it was his first important national exposure and that would make some
people off their game, but i'm starting to think it's more a matter of his limited experience in general, with national issues. i mean, Vermont is not exactly a reflection of national diversity and his only elected or campaigning experience has been statewide.

[TLM]

84. I think you missed the point...

The MTP thing did not hurt him at all, eventhough many folks like yourself were running around DU saying Dean was over becuase of the MTP showing.


This is just more of the same straw grasping by Dean bashers.

[wndycty]

4. Is the DU having problems this morning. . .

I just went back to edit a line and it said the time to edit has expired.

"Now own to my observations" should read "Now on to my observations"

[RedSox02]

8. Sheppard Smith last night

on the unbiased Fox News channel kept mocking the whole debate chanting ROCK THE VOTE randomly during news updates. For example, "Wesley Clark today criticized the Bush Adminsitrations cutting of Veteran's benefits, ROCK THE VOTE!. Clark said....." "Meanwhile in otnight's Democratic Presidential debate, Howard Dean, who has come under fire for his COnfederate flag comments, ROCK THE VOTE!...." "Now time for a News break, ROCK THE VOTE Laurie Dhue!"

[wndycty]

17. This could be good. . .

. . .if the ROCK THE VOTE crowd is motivated we can show them how the GOP and its surrogates (FAUX NEWS) mock them.

[Cocoa]

80. that's pathetic

That sounds very unfunny. it sounds like a bad "morning zoo" outfit trying to pass as a news channel.

[quinnox]

9. I agree

But I am happy about Dean's boneheadedness, it will just keep being an issue that will help other candidates.

In fact, I hope Dean listens to some of his supporters about how this is a brilliant strategy (talking about confederate flag) and starts to use the confederate flag as his backdrop at all his campaign speeches.

One other note about the debate, did you see Clark's reaction when Dean referred to Clark as being pro-war? It was great, he had this look on his face like, "There he goes again" and he smiled as if to say, "Well, what can you expect from a guy like Dean"

They took a commercial break after that, and I saw Clark going over to Dean, I bet he had an interesting conversation about it.

[wndycty]

12. How ironic. . .

. . .while Dean is on the defensive regarding his Confederate flag comments he has no qualms spreading the damn rumor that Clark is pro-war.

[TLM]

88. Clark is pro-war... he's also pro-war crimes like bombing journalists.

"Extra! July/August 1999 Legitimate Targets?
How U.S. Media Supported War Crimes in Yugoslavia - By Jim Naureckas
NATO justified the bombing of the Belgrade TV station, saying it was a legitimate military target. "We've struck at his TV stations and transmitters because they're as much a part of his military machine prolonging and promoting this conflict as his army and security forces," U.S. General Wesley Clark explained--"his," of course, referring to Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic. It wasn't Milosevic, however, who was killed when the Belgrade studios were bombed on April 23, but rather 20 journalists, technicians and other civilians. "

On the IWR....

“I don’t know if I would have or not. I’ve said it both ways, because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position. On balance, I probably would have voted for it.”


CNN (1/21/03) "I probably wouldn't have made the moves that got us to this point. But just assuming that we're here at this point, then I think that the president is going to have to move ahead, despite the fact that the allies have reservations."


(CNN, 2/5/03): "The credibility of the United States is on the line, and Saddam Hussein has these weapons and so, you know, we're going to go ahead and do this and the rest of the world's got to get with us.... The U.N. has got to come in and belly up to the bar on this. But the president of the United States has put his credibility on the line, too. And so this is the time that these nations around the world, and the United Nations, are going to have to look at this evidence and decide who they line up with."

[maha]

19. Dean is RIGHT, dammit!

I wish people could get over the knee-jerk reactions to the Confederate flag and actually listen to what he said!

Do you have any idea what he actually said? (My take on it here.)

[wndycty]

21. "get over the knee-jerk reactions. . ."

Dean offended many and his supporters blame those who were offended. . .that strategy is not going to work too well.

[maha]

24. Why were they offended?

If people choose to take offense at a remark that clearly was not meant to be offensive (if you can read it honestly, it wasn't), then who is really at fault?

[wndycty]

27. Blaming the victim. . .

He I am not bothered by the comment, but there were obviously people who were offended and he should take responsibility for offending people. What is funny is you are calling those who are offended stupid:

-snip-
If people choose to take offense at a remark that clearly was not meant to be offensive (if you can read it honestly, it wasn't), then who is really at fault?
-snip-

How very Republican of you.

[maha]

29. No, that's not blaming the victim

Because there was no victim. I say again, if people choose to take offense at something that wasn't meant to be offensive, then who is at fault? For example, if I tell you I like your shoes and you take offense, why is that my fault?

"How very Republican of you. "

No, it's very Buddhist of me. The Buddha taught people to take responsibililty for their own emotions. As my old Zen roshi used to say, "Nobody can make you angry. You make yourself angry."

It would be one thing if Dean DID make a racist remark or sterotype all southerners or some such, but he did not. He was trying to make a point about reaching out to white working-class southern men who vote against their own economic interests by voting Republican. And, he was right. But instead of hearing what he said, the knee-jerkers got distracted by the specter of the Confederate flag and read all kinds of nonsense into Dean's remarks that are just plain not there.

So, instead of pandering to knee-jerkers and backing down, Dean is standing by his words. Maybe that's not the smart thing to do politically, but it's the right thing to do ethically. It's the knee-jerkers who are wrong in this matter.

[sangh0]

54. It's ignoring the voters

who were offended by his remark, even if they shouldn't be. Telling those people "You're mistaken. I did nothing wrong" may be an accurate defense, but it's also going to be an ineffective defense. Calling them "knee-jerkers" is definitely NOT a step in the right direction

IOW, keep it up! With supporters like that, Dean has no chance

[wndycty]

58. Thats all I am trying to say. . .

:kick: Thanks sanghO

[maha]

69. I plan to vote for Clark, anyway,

but I'm arguing on Dean's behalf because IMO he's getting a bum rap on the flag thing.

And I will call a knee-jerker a knee-jerker, thank you very much. The knee-jerkers I'm referring to are not the white guys with pickup trucks, but so called "liberals" on this forum who can't get over their own prejudices about the white guys with pickup trucks.

[sangh0]

73. "Unfair, unfair"!!!

Whines like that don't win elections. Neither will accusing Democrats on DU of being "liberals", complete with the quotation marks.

IOW, keep it up! You're performing a public service.

[maha]

78. I try.

I hate ignorance. If it doesn't bother you, so be it.

[sangh0]

81. And I appreciate it

and it's not that I don't hate ignorance. I just don't assume it's going to go away anytime soon. Like it or not, many voters, many DEM voters are going to perceive it as a racist statement, and if Dean doesn't step back from it and re-phrase, he's going to lose votes. Calling those people "liberals" and "knee-jerkers" isn't going to bring them back, even if it were true.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

89. Those who were offended also oddly seem to be those who already

support other candidates and were not offended by the 50 other times Dean made this statement over the past 10 months. The just seemed to suddenly be offended, as if they were told to be offended by some talking points from their candidates.


And if your offence is based in your total ignorance of what DEan actually said, then yes it is your fault.

[TLM]

85. LOL! Wake up basher... read something other than talking points...

and you might see Dean has been using the confederate flag line for 10 months or more.


And Clark was pro-war... he said he'd vote for the IWR and he made comments on CNN about the whole world needing to belly upto the bar and get behind Bush.

Clark himself admitted he's contradicted himself on the war as well.

[reachout]

13. I haven't participated in the other threads about this

I taped Rocked the Vote and had a chance to sit down and watch it last night. For my disclaimer I'll say that I am a Kucinich supporter.

I was once again glad Sharpton was in the debate. He gives them an energy they wouldn't otherwise have. Mosley-Braun has shined in several of them, but really didn't impress me in this one. Unfortuantely, I think DK's performance was sub-par and did win him any additional supporters. I thought Clark and Dean both did OK, but I was less impressed with Kerry.

All that being said...I find it almost painful to say this, but looking at what is effective for presidents and presidential contenders, I have to agree with Dean on not backing down. No, I don't think the comment was a good idea and I DO NOT agree with the sentiment; however, ask yourself this: How many times have you heard Bush apologize for anything? Even when he turns out to be completely wrong? I know that as progressives we don't want those kind of politics to dominate, but the simple fact is they do. Part of Bush's appeal (and yes, as much as we don't like to admit it, he does appeal to a LOT of Americans) is his steadfast refusal to back down on anything. I may be disgusted with it, but it works. Clark hurt himself early on by backtracking and trying to "modify" his statements. From the perspective of national elections, I think a Democratic candidate who wants to beat Bush will have to bull ahead and stick to his guns even when he majorly f-s up. No, this doesn't make he happy, but it appears to be the reality of elections to me.

If there's one thing Bush has taught me it's that the public memory is about as long as the time to the next commercial break. If you just barrel ahead even the most egregious errors will soon be forgotten.

[bearfartinthewoods]

18. i thought he was a general, not a major?

ok...shoot me ...i think i'm jus punchy this morning

[CWebster]

23. disclaimer covered it

enough said.

And, ah couldn't help but notice the preponderance of Clark shock troops on this thread.....as usual.

[TLM]

91. Yep odd isn;t it how they just happened to be the most offended...

and the most concerned about the "others" who must be so offended by Dean's remarks... in fact Dean;s remarks were so offensive that the CLark folks, with the exception of one or two people, had to change around what dean said. Clearly the actual quotes were to offensive to post, so they had to post edited versions... yeah that's the ticket.

[Curse10sBitch]

28. I want to be a Clark supporter...I really do!

Because he's so pretty. I picture him standing next to Bush, and...I mean, Bush looks like a monkey on a stick in the best of circumstances, but next to Clark he would look even worse. Wes is easily the most presidential looking of the candidates.

The problem is, Clark's still not saying anything. Did you see him duck the "Don't ask don't tell" questions? Even in the post-debate wrapup, he still refused to say he was against it. Sure, he said it needed review, we should start from the perspective that it's not working, whatever whatever, but it was all very carefully calculated to allow him to say, later on, that he never specifically opposed the policy.

I'd like to see him toughen up a little. Not bashing him; he's at least a close second on my support list. But it's hard to throw my support fully behind him when he's doing this much dancing.

(Plus I'm for strongly against the criminalization of the reefer, so that's gotta be a negative for me.)

[robbedvoter]

30. Clark ducked nothing. He said before he favors the British system

Don't Ask-Don't misbehave - wich is sex preference blind. This is the direction he wants to move this in and it was clear enough to me.
I am glad that Paula Zahn is finally a guru on DU! Who'd have thunk it?

[Curse10sBitch]

41. If Clark said that, then cool

Didn't catch it. Thanks for the info. He didn't say that last night, did he?

If he's on record as being in favor of the British system, that's great and I take it back. But last night he stopped just short of outright announcing that he's against the "Don't ask don't tell" policy, which struck me as evasive.

[maha]

31. He clearly said it didn't seem to be working.

And he also said he thought gay people should be able to serve their country. How is this "ducking the question"?

[TLM]

93. All CLark does is dance... getting a straight answer out of him

is like pulling teeth.


He only answers in these meaningless empty platatudes like we have to get america going again... we have to overhaul the economy. etc.


I think that the reason he can't give a straight answer is that he's not sure where he stands... he hasn't been told yet.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

123. Talk about throwing stones from a glass house!

"He only answers in these meaningless empty platatudes like we have to get america going again... we have to overhaul the economy. etc."

You are describing Dean with that one. In fact, I'm pretty sure I posted that exact sentence about Dean at least 6 months ago.

On EVERY issue except the economy, Clark has given forthright and detailed answers. Dean gave us nothing but platitudes on the economy until just about a month ago; I've noticed he ratcheted up the populist rhetoric lately.

Anyway, a Dean supporter accusing Clark of "empty platitudes" is certainly a "throwing stones from a glass house" situation.

[robbedvoter]

32. Dean couldn't back down: he said before "C-flag is a states rights issue"

It would come back to bite him in the A* (same answer Raygun and the bushes gave, BTW). It was posted here on one of the monster threads:
chimpymustgo  (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-02-03 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. No, it's a recognition of tone-deafness on Dean's part about race.
Geez Louise. If Dean supporters could put down the Kool-Ade just long enough to look at this objectively.
I don't think Dean is a racist. He just doesn't understand the issues, the language, the nuances of the debate.
My first exposure to Dean was last January - Martin Luther King's birthday. Dean was asked about the state of South Carolina flying the Confederate flag.
Dean hemmed. Dean hawed. Dean kicked the dirt with his shoe. Dean said it's a state's rights issue.
Okey dokey. I knew then and there what we are dealing with here. Now I've watched for months, as Dean says what he THINKS needs to be said it any given situation to get votes.
Please, let us as a party, be capable of doing better than this. 
 Alert Printer Friendly | Reply | Top 
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show topic&forum=104&topic id=636191

[maha]

51. In point of fact, the C-flag IS an issue for the states, not the feds.

And please note I am adamantly opposed to flying the Confederate flag over a statehouse. But there is no way the feds can legislate on that issue. It has to be decided at state level.

[bigtree]

63. But... To use States Rights and the Confederate flag in his language

Would we give Karl Rove a break for using these code-words. I can accept that Dean may be tone-deaf but I know what his statements are intended to do, as he has said. To get votes. Why is that not craven?: To use these negative images, the flag and states-rights, to troll for votes? Where's the principle in using these code-words in an election beyond getting people to vote for him. Don't talk to me about elections. Talk about the principle of using these offensive symbols to get votes.

edit: spelling burn-out

[maha]

75. Who's using offensive symbols to get votes?

When Howard Dean slaps a Confederate flag on his own pickup truck, let me know. He has not advocated display of Confederate flags at any point in his life, as far as I know. He simply said the Dems need to reach out to the Confederate flag guys, and I think he's right.

And, like it or not, the Confederate flag issue is a "states' rights" issue, literally. I realize "states' rights" is a code word for racism, but it also does represent a fact of our federalist system of government, that the states retain some parts of sovereignty, and there are some matters that ain't none of the feds' business.

[bigtree]

87. voting rights, civil rights. . .

The Federal government, notwithstanding the 14th and the 15th amendments is the primary defender of my liberty. These rights were paper rights without a strong, activist federal government. Many others as well.

Conservatives use the state's rights code to appeal to that segment of the population that resents the gains of minorities. I'm tired. I should have the energy to rebut this; to defend my position in a way that puts your defense of these codes and symbols to rest. But I am tired and frustrated to have to defend these things in a Democratic party environment. Damn Dean for bring these symbols into the debate in the context of attracting the bearers of these symbols to our party.

If you and Dean succeed in legitimising these people who wave these flags then it will marginalize my argument against these symbols. You hear it in the debate here, and Dean said it on CNN following the debate: " Those who display the confederate flag aren't necessarily racist," he said.

I couldn't disagree more. Watch these rebel flag wavers in the coming months and see if there is anything about the flag worth supporting. Don't forget me though. Don't make my fight against the exploitation of these negative, hurtful symbols moot by giving these racists cover.

edit: sleepy spelling

[TLM]

96. Oh so now even speaking the vorboden words is a problem...

the bashers lose the spin on calling Dean racist, then they lose the spin trying to say he was validating the flag or supporting the racism some feel it represents... now just the fact he used the words means he's sending secret code?

You just used the terms in your post... so clearly you must be a racist using such race loaded code words.


And since when are states rights racist symbols anyway? Simply because a few racist tried to hide behind a states' rights argument, that doesn't mean states rights is not a valid argument of many issues.

States rights is a big issue out here in CA because our state is currently fighting with the feds over medical pot laws. So following your argument all those medical pot supporters are racists using racist code words for votes... right?

Is there no end to the stupid garbage you Dean bashers will pull out of your asses to attack Dean?

[bigtree]

100. now you know that's not what I'm saying

He used the terms in a naive way, perhaps. But, these types of coded appeals are not new to conservatives. They use them all the time.

Like Haley Barbour going to the Klan picnic to troll for Klan votes. Dean, (unwittingly?) put himself in that category. If he wasn't confronted, then the conservatives would get cover for their racist pandering.

Bush at Jim Jones university.

Do you agree that Barbour's visit to the Klan picnic was an appeal for racist votes? Bush's?

What's the difference?

Am I a Dean basher? No. I am a confederate rebel battle flag basher, and a longtime defender of Civil and Voting Rights.

[TLM]

105. He's been using the term for 10 months....

And there was nothing naive about his use of the term as a reference to the poor white working class folks who have been voting repuke against their own best intersts.

And it is NOTHING like going to a klan picnic.

Nobody at the klan picnic isn't a racist... but a hell of alot of guys with reb flags are not racists. Dean is not appealing to racists for votes... what is doing is trying to appeal to a group that has been wedged away from the democratic party by a racist republican strategy, and give them reason to come together with blacks and whites to vote for their shared goals of healthcare and good schools.

Do you think that Barbour was trying to get the Klan to get over their racism and work together with blacks for their common goals?

If we want to stop dividing people by race, we have to address what divids us and we have to reach out to those who have been divided, and we must give them a reason to come back.

[bigtree]

107. Subject: Subject: Careful on those State's Right's defenses

If we can criticize Bush and Barbour for their thinly veiled appeals to racists then we can't allow Dean to do the same thing by saying 'you know he's not a racist'.

What if a state wanted to outlaw abortion? What if a state wants to ignore federal workplace saftey laws; anti-discrimination laws? Can you think of anything else that you want the federal government to defend?

The embrace of state's rights is a republican thing. Wow! Here I am, in the bastion of The Democratic 'Underground', fighting off a defense of state's rights! I suspect this argument is mainly in defense of your candidate Dean.(possibly mine in the future)

Don't crush the good work of decades of defense of federally protected rights with a sloppy defense of the traditionally racist appeal of state's rights and the confederate flag.

[TLM]

112. Nice attempt at spin, but it won't fly....

"If we can criticize Bush and Barbour for their thinly veiled appeals to racists then we can't allow Dean to do the same thing"

BULLSHIT. Dean did not do the same thing, not even in the same fucking ballpark... as I pointed out and you ignored, Dean was speaking of reaching out to these folks and bringing blacks and whites together on shared goals. At what point did Bush or Barbour do that? At what point did Bush or Barbour try to undermine the southern strategy of using race issues as wedge to break apart a powerful voting block?

What Bush and Barbour did was try to fan the flames of racism and drive the wedge deeper to keep blacks and whites apart... which is exactly what you are supporting.



"What if a state wanted to outlaw abortion? What if a state wants to ignore federal workplace saftey laws; anti-discrimination laws? Can you think of anything else that you want the federal government to defend?"

Again I guess you must have slept through civics. Abortion is a personal liberty issue, thus making it a constitutional issue and therefore under federal jurisdiction... the same is true with civil rights. Workplace safety does have state level regulation, and the federal level comes in when interstate commerce or civil liberties are an issue.

Please do some research on the subject.


"The embrace of state's rights is a republican thing."

No it isn't... right to die/assisted suicide has been a states rights argument... medical pot has been a states rights argument... gay marriage has been a states rights argument. Are those republican issues? Hell the vote counting in 2000 was a states rights issue.


" Wow! Here I am, in the bastion of The Democratic 'Underground', fighting off a defense of state's rights! I suspect this argument is mainly in defense of your candidate Dean.(possibly mine in the future)

Don't crush the good work of decades of defense of federally protected rights with a sloppy defense of the traditionally racist appeal of state's rights and the confederate flag."

Please don't let your ignorance of how state and federal powers are balanced be tainted by your misconception that states' rights are somehow inherently racist.

[bigtree]

114. I am just a guy on a computer. Spin is for politicians

State's rights aren't inherently racist. They must be balanced against the power of the federal government.

"Please do some research on the subject."

Condecending and insulting. The issues you state are constantly under assault as states sometimes ignore federal law and gamble their obstruction against a compliant supreme court.

My "state's rights is a repub thing" statement was not not well thought out and incorrect. Thank you for your correction. But we can agree at least that state's rights can take many forms.

The problem is that I have spent years fighting the other more sinister use of the term by conservatives to ignore minimum wage laws and deny the citizens the right to sue, etc.. So, I concede that the issue of state's rights can be used differently.

But I don't think getting votes is a good enough reason to give cover to confederate flag wavers. I hope you and Dean don't either.

"Ignorance." You are trying to insult me. This conversation is over. Thanks for your comments.

[TLM]

94. LOL! One CLark Corps Dean basher is quoting antother...

as if CHimpy's opinion is somehow valid or factual.

First off, what a state puts on their state flag is a state issue. Did you sleep through civics class?

Secondly, Dean said that he did not like the fact the state was flying the flag that offended so many, but that the federal government had no business in the matter, and it was up to the people of the state to change it, which they did. Despite Chipmy's spin caling Dean hemmed and hawwed... yet providing no quotes as ususal for these lying bashers, Dean's position was very clear.

[Tesha]

33. Inclusive remark turns into instant target

- Dean would like to bring everyone back to the Democtatic party - everyone! even if they hold some views out of line with the average Democrat.
- Some people who have the confederate flag one their trucks do not equate it with slavery, but southern pride, and are only in need of someone who'll bring them back into the party. You can't expect people to be willing to change if you exclude them - bring them in!
-Opponents of Dean will do anything to put him in a bad light, even if it drives many southerners away from the party. I'll bet the republicans are just as pleased as punch.
-Take a simple statement where Dean says he'll take anybody's vote, and filter it through our own experiences of bigotry - twisting and adding to it, then attack the person who said it? Not hardly presidential material - I'm more committed to Dean now than ever.

[wndycty]

34. I know it was meant to be inclusive. . .

. . .but many people do not see it that way and he should have understood that. Hey I do not have a problem with what he said. But in the long run he hurts himself. . .you do not believe me give it time. . .and you will see that I am right.

[CWebster]

36. It didn't hurt him at all

until it was twisted to hurt him by those who found it was in their interest to do so.

[wndycty]

39. Well it was twisted. . .and it is hurting him. . .

The majority of Americans will not understand the nuance of the argument.

So headlines courtesy of news.google.com:

Dems Press Dean on Confederate Flag Flap-Christian Broadcasting Network

Rivals slam Dean over flag remark-BBC

Dean holds ground on Confederate flag remark at Democratic debate-AP

Dean's comments targeted in debate-Sacremento Bee

Dean feels the heat from other Democrats for his flag remark-Rock Hill Herald, SC

The list goes on and on with lots of dupications from multiple sources.

[wndycty]

42. 'I AM NOT A BIGOT.'

From the Chicago Tribune daily e-mail

Is this the headline Dean's supporters really want?

'I AM NOT A BIGOT.' Presidential candidate Howard Dean last night
declined to apologize for suggesting Democrats should try to win
over Southerners with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks.
Jeff Zeleny reports:
http://tm0.com/daywatch/sbct.cgi?s=160743130&i=932093&m=1&d=5351812

[wndycty]

45. And the photo caption

Howard Dean debates Al Sharpton
Democratic presidential hopeful former Gov. Howard Dean of Vermont, left, clasps hands with Rev. Al Sharpton of New York, right, moments after the televised Rock the Vote Democratic presidential debate at Boston's Faneuil Hall. The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag.
(AP/Michael Dwyer, Pool)
November 5, 2003

WHEN YOU SEE THE PHOTO CAPTION THAT READS: 'The two hopefuls had a heated exchanged during the debate concerning voters who display the Confederate flag."

How do you think most people will interpret that? A Black guy and a white guy arguing the Confederat flag. Folks PERCEPTION TRUMPS REALITY!!!

[Castilleja]

44. You have condensed the entire matter

at it's core into that one sentence, CWebster, the WHOLE thing.

[wndycty]

48. So it was twisted. . .

. . .fine and how he handles it now that it was twisted will say a lot. Right now he is not handling it well.

[sangh0]

57. Dean's supporters are in denial

They acknowledge that it's in Dean's opponents interests to attack him on this, but they also insist that this will help Dean by showing that he "stands up" for what he believes in.

No explanation on why it's in his opponents interests to attack Dean when attacking Dean helps Dean

[TLM]

98. FUnny how the only folks who feel that way are the other candidates'

and their supporters.


You guys bust your asses to spin this into something it is not... then attack Dean for not taking the bait and letting these asses define him.

He sticks by what he said because what he said was fine and right... it was the dishonest spin from others that is the problem. And that will only serve to make them look dishonest and desperate.

Every time these idiots try another attack, Dean's number go up. Why do you think that is... maybe the average voter isn't as stupid as you think they are?

[maha]

56. So, you say,

". .but many people do not see it that way and he should have understood that. Hey I do not have a problem with what he said. But in the long run he hurts himself. . .you do not believe me give it time. . .and you will see that I am right."

So, you are saying that you realize Dean's remark was not actually racist, but because the world is full of knee-jerkers who will take offense anyway and bash Dean for it, then we should all be knee-jerkers and bash him, too?

[wndycty]

61. Have I bashed him. . .no

I am just saying that he needs to understand what impact his words are having.

[TLM]

99. He's been using those same words for 10 months...

and the impact they've had is he is so far ahead the other candidates have to resort to cheat shots like this.

[chaska]

38. Dean boo boo

I'm from SC. The first state to secede, the last to remove the CF from it's capitol.

What Dean SAID was right. But he made a mistake in including the flag in his statement. A really a stupid mistake. Mentioning the flag means that blacks will turn out in droves to vote against him in SC (an important early primary state). And for those who think the confederate flag wavers will turn out to support him, you obviously don't understand the south. Dean's name was mud down here before the flag controversy and this won't change anything. Those people will not now, nor would they ever have voted for any democrat for president. Wooing them will, if anything, hurt him with southern white dems/libs. Those CF people are Bush voters, no if and or buts about it.

It's a mistake in every sense but one. While he is on the hot seat he is increasing his name recognition. If he's smart he'll stand his ground. The damge is already done, might as well get maximum media exposure.

[TLM]

101. So you honestly think so little of black voters... think them so stupid

that they'll turn out to vote against someone for just saying the words "confederate flag?"

So I guess you probably also figure that those same folks much hate Dr. King since he said he wished the sons of slave owners and the sons of slaves could sit together in peace and brotherhood?

I happen to think these voters are smart enough to see Dean was talking about needed outreach based on shared goals... eventhough some folks, even supposedly on our own side, would prefer to continue to use race as a wedge issue.

[returnable]

43. What I find most ironic is...

...when folks suggested that Clark, a southern military man, would appeal to southern white males, they were mocked by some (and I emphasize "some") Dean supporters.

These Dean supporters said that the key to winning was energizing the Democratic base, and that the Dems didn't "need" to reach out to conservatives, or "rednecks", if you will.

They said that the Dems needed to move back to the left, and forget about those on the right. That the Dems have failed in the last two election cycles BECAUSE they have tried to appeal to the sensibilities of those outside of the "big tent" and ignored the beliefs of the base.

But now that their man has stepped in it, big time, suddenly they are falling all over themselves talking about how Dean is the candidate for inclusion.

Funny stuff.

[RandomUser]

47. Interesting observation

In all fairness, not all Dean supports bashed Clark, and not all Dean supporters are now defending Dean on this issue. It would be interesting to see whether the most ardent bashers and the most ardent supporters are one and the same. Anyone want to go through the archives and check? If so, that would make those people out to be hypocrites.

[TLM]

103. Almost as interesting as the fact the most ardent Dean Bashers

also seem to be the ones most vocal about how awful and racist and offensive Dean's statements were.

[RandomUser]

109. You fail to note the previous poster's position

His observation was that many Dean supporters bashed Clark for appealing to southern swing voters, saying we should forget them and move left and energize the green leaners. And now, many Dean supporters are now defending Dean for reaching out to those same southern swing voters. That is a logical disconnect.

Unless I'm mistaken, none of the people who are bashing Dean are saying he's wrong to want to reach southern swing voters. Rather, they're saying his wording was clumsy, and chosing the flag as the central issue was inept, insensitive, and divisive. They're saying Dean's statements are racist (note, I don't happen to agree), but not that reaching out to southern swing voters is wrong. Hence there is no logical contradiction as there is in the case of the Dean supporters who bash Clark for pursuing the southern swing vote and defend Dean for doing the same.

I believe Dean is not wrong to try to reach southern swing voters, just as I believe Clark not to be wrong. No hypocrisy here. As a matter of fact, I believe the CF thing is a bit overblown. Dean's sentiment was right, but execution was a bit flawed. I doubt he's a racist.

Take note please, that you will not find me in any of the Dean/confederate flag threads. I try to stay out other candidate bashing threads. You will also not find me in a pro-dean thread spouting anti-dean remarks. I try not to bash other candidates. Can you say the same?

Any implication that I'm an ardent candidate basher would seem to be projection on your part.

[returnable]

116. Bingo! n/t

[TLM]

120. Can you quote any of these threads where you claim Dean supporters

were attacking the idea of reaching out to the south?

Since DEan has been saying what he said last night for the last 10 months, somehow I doubt what you claim.

So lets see some links.

I've never attacked Clark for wanting to reach out to the southern voters... but I have attacked him for being a liar, a war criminal, a republican, a lobbyist, and working with kissinger and frank carlucci.

[RandomUser]

122. Check the archives

run a search. Note that there is no star next to my name.

[Julien Sorel]

68. Shhhhhhhhhh! Stop pointing out things like this!

The next thing you know, you'll be saying some Deanites say things they don't believe because they think it will help their candidate.

[TLM]

102. Oh please.... since when is bringing blacks and white together

with shared goals of healthcare and good schools not a value of the liberal/dem base?

And there's a difference between reaching out to a group and telling them it is in their own best interests to support the dems and what we are doing, and pandering to that group by changing what we're doing.


ANd the only thing Dean is stepping in is the winner's circle.

[returnable]

117. You missed my point

I wasn't referring to Dean's desire to broaden the party's appeal.

I was talking about how some of his supporters here on DU have posted conflicting positions on the importance of connecting with southern white voters.

Even in your post, you succumb to the double standard - Clark's appeal is considered "pandering" while Dean is expanding the party's base.

Please explain how any of Clark's policies can be considered "pandering" to white guys in pickup trucks with confederate flags, er, NASCAR decals in their windows.

:hi:

[Unknown Known]

49. Clark looked great in that black turtleneck!!

It hides his skinny neck.

Dean's remarks on the flag thingie were SOOOOO naive! In essence, he is right, but Dean sometimes let's things fly out of his mouth without thinking.

Let's be honest here - the problem with the South (I lived there, am married to one, and my mom was from there, so I think I can speak with some authority), lower income whites and many higher income uneducated whites are very rascist. And many hide it very well. They don't put Confederate flags on their cars, but they're as rascist as the ones in pick-ups. And the repukes play right into this - they know their base.

A rascist will vote against their own interest because of their rascism. Isn't that why many southerners left the Dem party after Truman and Johnson?

There's no way in hell these people will come back to the Dems. And for Dean to think so, is very naive. And I say, who wants them anyway? I moved away from the South 20 years ago and swore I would never return for these reasons. BushCo will have them living in cardboard boxes and take away their guns, but they'll attack the black man before they would ever attack the rich man.

[bigtree]

79. Did Dennis call Wesley and ask what he was wearing?

Dennis' outfit, although not completely black, was like a twin of Wesley's.

Man, they sure know when someone's talking their language. Dean could have said Nascar or guns or the like but he used the language of the racists; no matter how he couched it. He offended those who are affected by these rebel flag-waving racists, and he gave comfort and cover for the offensive battle flag and those who bear it.

[Cocoa]

121. they should run together

Kucinich-Clark the Ninja Twins. :-)

[bigtree]

124. Very James Bond

or James Coburn; 'In Like Flint'

[TLM]

104. You may support just writing off all these folks in the south...

but Dean won't. Dean wants to undermine the republicans southern strategy and bring these races together based on their shared goals... you seem to want to support the southern srategy and keep using race to drive these groups apart for politial gain.

[Cocoa]

83. Anderson Cooper NOT keeping it real

that question about Hillary Clinton was a joke.

Is the Hillary factor a burning issue for young people? That would be funny, since all the old wrinkled right-wingers on cable news happen to be obsessed about her too.

At least he didn't ask them about the Reagan movie.

[SayitAintSo]

92. My thoughts exactly on Dean ...

The way he made his statement was offensive and it reminded EVERY southern voter listening of what they DON'T like about Yankees .... the arrogance, the southern stereotyping etc. If Dean can't learn that SIMPLE lesson - he's toast. Simply put, his arrogance on this compromises his southern appeal- BIG TIME.

[TLM]

106. Please quote him and explain what you found so offensive...

So far I've not seen anybody able to do this without spining or outright lying about what DEan said.

[SayitAintSo]

125. You guys don't get it ... That's why Dean won't win...

The WAY you make your point is just as important, if not more so than what your point really is. The fact that Dean stepped in it and doesn't even know it tells all.

You can win the battle and lose the war. And for the record - I agree with Dean's point, I just cringed at his delivery. He didn't understand his audience enough to know how to effectively communicate the point he was trying to make.

[bigtree]

97. The curly haired 'caster on MSNBC

said Dean apologised today. Good. If he did, then I accept.

[TLM]

108. Here's what Dean said....

"I'm not going to take a back seat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry. I'm the only person here that signed a bill that outlawed discrimination against gays and lesbians by giving them the same rights .

"What I discovered is that the fear of people who opposed that bill, the majority of people in my state, was mostly based on ignorance. We have to reach out to every American. We don't have to embrace the confederate flag and I never suggested we do. We have to reach out to all disenfranchised people. Robert Kennedy brought people together. Jesse Jackson did it. We're going to bring people together in this country. I understand the confederate flag is a loathesome symbol, just as I understood the anti-gay slurs I had to put up with after I signed that bill were loathesome. If we don't reach out to every American we can't win. I've had enough of campaigns based on fear, I want a campaign based on hope." -- Howard Dean, Rock the Vote Forum, Boston, 11/4/03

[bigtree]

111. He's working his way back.

I wish him the best of luck.

[Donna Zen]

113. Is that one of those

apology-non-apology things? Must have been a call from a union...

[TBURNS]

126. Rock The Vote

Reading news reports I seen that Rock the Vote was somewhat of a success, and somewhat of a failure.

Does this mean that the deomocratic party is getting worse? or, is it just the age group?

T.B.
http://conservativeissues.com
Balancing out Politics