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Good morning. Caller: How you doing?
>> Good. Caller: Good. I'm calling because I have a question for mr. PincuS. I don't know if you were aware of an article in "the coloradoan" november 28, 1996, a pentagon study, scientists directed term company. The company's name was american culture collection. It was said from 1985-1989, about a rockville, maryland company, 70 government-approved shipments of anthrax and other pathogens were shipped to iraqi scientists according to congressional records. That was cited by fonoi newsday."
>> What's your point, caller? Caller: I was basically saying all these people have been calling up, I'm a former veteran from the marine corps and the troops have encountered, during the gulf war, originally when they occupied kuwait and we basically got them out of kuwait and then sharts cough stopped our -- schwarzkof stopped our troops and pulled our troops out, we had the problems in the late 1980's. Like I said, it's a travesty that chemical poisons have been used on troops. I don't know if you were aware of that "life" magazine soldier that had his child, it was an army ranger had a child from the post war syndrome that had -- his hands were coming out of his shoulders. You know?
>> Thanks. Walter pincus?
>> Well, the caller is right about the mid 1980's, people tend to forget all those, only 17 or 18 years ago, during the iran-iraq war when saddam hussein used chemical weapons against the iranians. The U.S. Did not protesT. And, in fact, it's also true that we gave what's known ass seeds to certain biological -- that could be used or grown to biological weapons to the iraqis in that 1980 period. It was done for different reasons, for protection, which is why we do iT. You pass the seeds of things like anthrax and you develop defenses against it. But there is no doubt in the 1980's we not opposing what saddam hussein was doing. We only first opposed him when he attacked his own people, the kurds. So to some degree there is a touch of original sin involved in what we're doing.
>> Do you think the bush administration is surprised they haven't found weapons of mass destruction?
>> I think everybody is surprised to be honest. I think I was writing about, before the war, and wrote, in fact, that it was inferential but the expectation was there was something and, clearly, the intelligence was not as good as it should have been, particularly if you're going to war. But I think I was surprised. Hans blix, the inspector was surprised.
>> Franklin, north carolina, you're on the air. Caller: Yes. Good morning. Mr. Pincus, i'm one of those people quho was not surprised. Because there are family members that have bee3 because there are family members that have been over there and I was not surprised when they didn't find find weapons of mass destruction. He would have used them before this time on his neighbors or whenever, whenever he needed them. In addition to that, i'm opposed to war. You can iken the corporation that's will make their billions of dollars over there in quote, unquote reconstructing as very much like the krup family, sure, hitler was there, but he was their pawn. They supported him, they financed him, and it was all financial so they could make money and it's nothing -- any different right now when you have corporations running this country.
>> Well, i think there are a large number of people who feel the same way. I'm not sure they're right i think as we talk about misjudgments before the war, i think the greatest misjudgment what we're seeing today is what would happen after the invasion. If there is a major fault in the intelligence or in the administration ignoring intelligence it is what would happen after we invaded. The belief within the administration that we would be welcomed as liberators and we would take the top off of the saddam hussein government, put our own people in, put exiles in, things would be -- democracy would flourish is the biggest mistake. The second mistake is that it feeds the caller's fears, that is, the administration's refusal to open up what goes on afterward to foreign governments, foreign companies, the emphasis on putting american companies in there, because american money will feed the belief of a lot of people. This was done for contracts and for moneY.
>> Will george tenet lose his job?
>> I don't think so. I think the administration understands that intelligence will be a political issue over the next year and certainly in the campaign, and i think they make -- it would make their re-election more difficult if they had to go through a process of replacing george teneT. There would be a series of hearings that would focus everyone's attention.
>> Next call, florida. Good morning. Jerry: I do -- caller: I do support the war, however, a cup of callers back -- a couple of callers back said we need to get in there and not do like when the senior bush went in there and schwartzkopf was told to stop and they didn't get saddam hussein. I think that we can do this without the U.N.'S helP. America as a good militarY. We don't need the u.N. To control our military. I think we have -- we're able to get the job done right. I want to point out a couple of other things. I do support the war, but i disagree with how we're going about it. Like I was saying under the U.N. Auspices, and then i had a couple of questions. And the questions are i wonder is this bush like his father doing this to bring about a new world order or is he doing this to -- to -- try to get my words right to go in here to get saddam hussein or is this just a move like the last caller was saying to -- to make corporations richer and -- because there are a lot of corporations are gonna be making money off this war, and so that's what I'm wondering.
>> Ok. Thanks, caller. Let's get an answer from mr. Pincus.
>> I think that you have to start with one premise and we have invaded a country whose culture is different from ours, as long as our troops are and our military is, you've sent people into a foreign country with a different culture who don't speak the language and who are not used to and willing to accept the american way of lifE. It took 150 years to develop our democracy, these people have lived under dictatorships their whole lives and historically it has been a different area, so you can't just say we can go in and win militarily. That doesn't win the war and that's what you're seeing right now.
>> Mr. Pincus, you wrote yesterday in "the washington post" about the role that islam would play in any new government in iraq. First of all, is democracy possible and what would be the role of islam in the new iraqi government?
>> It follows on to what i just said. Iraq is an artificial countrY. You have the kurds in the north that have their own society, their own basic background. You have the sunnis which are one branch of islam, they're the minority, but they've been running the country for the past 35 shears, and you have the shea, a different secretary, a different belief. The question is whether you can -- a different sect, a different belief. The question is whether you can bring them all together is what we have to see, and that's what we didn't think about before we went in. I draw the comparison with yugoslavia. When the leader of yugoslavia was gone, it split uP. You're not just dealing with the past 15, 20, 30 years, which americans don't seem to understand, you're dealing with century old dictatorships going back hundreds of years.
>> Next call for mR. Pincus, cincinnati, ohio. Good morning. Caller: Good morning. A couple of points. One, i absolutely oppose this war. And I want to thank you guy force showing the anti-war peace rally. You were the only network to cover it, cnn only covered it for five minutes, and would only cover it if the protesters would cause problems. The anti-war movement is growing in this country. And after the events that happened today with almost 40 people dying over there, the anti-war movement is going to grow even more. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing about how this is clinton's fault because clinton didn't do anything about thiS. When bush was hand add memo in july 2001 about this war and it was kept under wraps by this administration, so it's time for this administration to take responsibility for what it's doing to this country and quit blaming it on clinton and that's all I've got to say. Thanks.
>> I think that there are roots to what's happening. I think if you want to have sort of the correct analysis, although the clinton administration and president clinton himself talked about regime change, regime change by having sanctions, by closing saddam off from the rest of the world is one thing, regime by sending american troops in is something different, and that's what the bush administration brought to the table. One of the questions that was going to be discussed as the senate committee particularly goes forward is whether the intelligence, whether it was faulty or not was exaggerated in order to do something the bush administration wanted to do shortly after 9-11, which is go after iraq which was said to be the agenda of some of the key popele in the administration before 9-11, so that will be a focus, it is going to politicize the next year and politicize, as it already has, the discussion of iraq. But the main problem is, as most democrats are also saying, we're there, you can't cut and run, and we're going to have to find a way, no matter who is president to get out and to get out and leave a country that is in some kind of ordeR.
>> Next call, weston, west virginia. Good morninG. Caller: Yes i was -- i remember back in 1953 when general jerry vaughn testified about harry truman and the korean war where harry went -- went in with seven rounds of ammunition and when harry was told about it, which, by the way, harry was under the weather a little bit at the time, I think it was jack daniels, but he said, well, the comment for our friends, they won't fire on american troops. Now, -- so we have to remember what we're fighting for. Now we're over there over these -- one of the things listed was the rockets that went -- was only supposed to be able to go 120, and they went 150. And I -- it looks to me like they put one of those rockets on a ship and made it to virginia and put it on a train and run 100 to 150 mile west, i might have to feel -- Now is this -- is there some other reason we're into it? Thank you.
>> Anything there you want to respond to?
>> I think he's covered too much territory. The korean war was an invasion from the north to the south and it was clearly america trying to throw back an invasion and the parallel really is the invasion saddam hussein did of kuwait and we threw him back, and that the point I think the first president bush did the right thing beings we didn't have the troops, didn't have support of the neighbors in the area to remove saddam hussein that the time and you would have had the same kind of trouble you have now.
>> Next call comes from clayton, north carolina. Good morning. Caller: Yes sir. Good morning to you botH. I have two issues. There was a -- you had reported on an article talking about michael moore and characterizing him as being now corporatized. I would like mr. Pincus to describe mr. Moore and his new book in terms of an investigator, like he really is bringing that all information that we could have all used to make this decision, like the fact that the bush administration oversought picking up the bin laden family -- oversaw the picking up the bin laden family after 9-11, mr. Bush's work with carlisle, his work with the saudi family and their interest in oil, and the 28 pages that have to do with the relationship between the saudi government and the united states. These are important issues. Now my second point, as a north carolinaian, I live in the state that has a large black pop lakers there are two black people on -- population, there are two black people on the north carolina court of appealS. I wish all of my fellow north carolinaians would vote for wand abryant so we can have diversity -- wanda bryant so we can have diversity in the future.
>> We get a lot of calls about the saudi family, the carlisle group, etc. Have you looked into those issues?
>> I looked into some. I haven't read michael moore's book. There are a couple of things that you have to understand, i basically don't believe in conspiracies, and it is basically one of my faults. You pick little things out and forget the big ones, saudi arabia hayes been a an ally to the -- saudi arabia has been an ally to the united states. It is in deep trouble in terms of what it has created in saudi arabia. But i have to confess i worked for sandra fulbright and believe her view, that we're not the policemen of the world, we can't change their government, we're not built for it and they're not ready for iT. Did the U.S. Government help other members of bin laden's family get out of the country. Apparently they distribution but the rest of bin laden's family was against what he was doing. Did bush work -- he -- he's part of the carlisle group, they do have contracts all over the world, but, again, i don't see one tiing to the otheR. I think it cree -- tying to the other. I think it creates an aura. Why do we get in? How do we get out?
>> Fayetteville, north carolina, you're on the air with walter pincus of "the washington post." Caller: I'm been in the army 14 years, I'm a veteran of desert storm, I just returned from iraq, to which i will return, I'm only back to tend a technical development school. There are several things going on in america that most people don't hear the soldier's point of view on it. Little things like the protests against the war, people have to understand that, yes, these are their freedoms, but it's affecting the soldiers. The soldiers see this, and they question where is the loilties of the american people being made, especially when there are pa rates of 1 -- especially when there are parades on behalf of the military, this never gets publicized. There's two other points. The patriotism in america is becoming questionable. Before 9-11, before iraqi freedom, you barely saw any homes with flags being waved, after 9-11 and iraqi freedom, you see almost every home waving a flag, the patriotism is great, but it will all be there when it's said and done, are these fair weather patriots or true americans? When we talk about freedoms, the american people need to realize, and if they don't, they every freedom that american people have is not given to them by politicians or the constitution it has been enforced by a soldier who has laid his life on the line so these people can have the freedom they have. With freedom comes responsibility. I use bill mahr, while i was in iraq, I got a report that this is a person that's a public face making statements that the american soldier themselves is a coward for going to iraq and beating up on a poor and innocent thearm can't compete with us. -- Innocent army that can't compete with us. This is a free country, but your right ends when you affect other people. To make the statement that american soldiers are coward, i challenge this man who -- to go in front of the parents and them that their son lost their lifE. These people need to exercise their freedom of support and support their soldiers and not gear in on the negativity going on in america, there's a lot of support for opposing the war and opposing president bush, i support my chain of command.
>> Caller, where are you based in iraq? Caller: I can't discuss where we're based in iraq, sir. We were in baghdad.
>> What unit? Caller: 82nd airborne division.
>> When did you go back? Caller: Probably in december.
>> Those who pose the war, particularly politicians, but almost everybody, supports the soliders, this soldier and all the others are just doing what they've been trained to do. It reminds me of the situation in vietnam democracy allows people to criticize their government, that's -- you're fighting technically for the right of iraqis to criticize their government, which they couldn't do before. Once your government makes a decision in a dictatorship, follow it. I was in the army during the korean war, and it's the one time you give up your rights and you do what you're told, no matter whether you think it right or wrong. In the case of this country, we do have the right to protest, and although you as a soldier feel it hurts what you're doing, the people who are protesting feel just the same waY. They feel you shouldn't be there. In the vietnam war a lot of soldiers protested because they were draftees and when the nixon administration ended the draft, they felt that they would end a lot of the protests, because young people going mark: The army department want to go into the army and didn't want -- -- going into the army, didn't want to go into the army and didn't want to fight war. When people protest the war, it doesn't mean they're not supporting you.
>> Walter pincus was with "the washington post" from 1966 to 1969, began as a copy boy at "the new york times." Next call is sterling, virginia. Good morning. Caller: Good morning. I have been reading everything that comes out with regard to the "post" and "new york times," I'm a retired intelligence officer, this past week when dana priest published the report, and I'm sure that it was leaked from the republican side of the intelligence committee, but it was only half of the story. Where was the reporting with regard to the so-called intelligence being fed by the exiles? And of course a lot of this goes back to the 1998 letter from paul wolfowitz an rumsfeld and pearl -- and rumsfeld and pearl who were just dying to get into a war with iraq and for some reason or another and then, of course, you have poindexter in the pentagon and we know what his background is, and abrams, and we know what his background is. "The washington post" left out part of it having to do with wrong intelligence or being fed intelligence that could have been wrong just to get the united states and to the war
>> Didn't you co-write that piece with dana priest?
>> No beings i didn't. I wrote a piece that went along with it about the origins of the N.I.E. And the fight over that. I think the call are is correct that a majority of the information came from -- in fact, the quotes came from sandra roberts, the republican chairman of the committee i think if you read into it, you would see that it was portrayed as that, although, when senator reports, the chairman of the committee says the report is 95% done and that this is what it contains, i think as a reasonable reporter, you write it. And it was a major story. What's happened since is that the -- the democrats have argued that was -- the report just in draft form, it is probably drafted by the republican staff, it is not completed and the caller's also correct that there will be hearings, george tenet is coming up to give his side of the story, and we have written in the past extensively about the exaggerations that took place probably before the war, a lot, as i said earlier, that there are people within the administration who saw this as an opportunity, so 9-11 is an opportunity and have been looking to go into iraq. This thing has so many levels to it in the prewar period, which we will discuss, but i keep going back to the major point, almost everybody agree that's we're there now and one of the issues is to try to figure out how to get out of iT.
>> Royal palm beach, florida. Good morning. Caller: Good morning. It's an honor to speak with yoU. This is dennis from royal palm beach, florida, and the intelligence officer before we stole some of my thunder. Part of the N.E.I. Includes human intelligence, and like you said, after 1998, when had no boots in the ground in iraq, however, we did have, as the intelligence officer pointed out, exiles, can we consider the possibility that the iraqis provided inaccurate information for the n.E.I. And that we were almost swindled into this operation
>>One of the things that you will find i think in the investigation thags we have written about before, is that -- investigations that we have written about before, is that there is a disagreement in the intelligence community there is one reason that the bush administration didn't really want an n.I.E. Done because you have to bring together the discoordonned sides of the intelligence community in this case the exiles did provide information which in many instances, the C.I.A. Discounted because they were exiles and they were trying to encourage the united states to go into iraq. On the other hand, the on the pentagon side, not particularly the defense intelligence agency, but groups set up inside the office of secretary of defense did deal with the iraqi national congress and several exiles who claimed to have intelligence that did have an effect on how the pentagon looked at thiS. In fact, some of it turned out, as we've seen lately, not to be true.
>> Next call lawton, oklahoma. Good morning. Caller: Yes, good morninG. I oppose the waR. Basically let me qualify myself. My husband is active duty military, and I have had numerous members of my family killed in vietnam and so i am an educated democrat, and I am -- giss you would say a christian -- I guess you would say a christian, however, i oppose this war, i oppose everything that this president does, i think that his popularity comes off -- he comes off the hatred of a lot of the american people and I think that's why he's so popular, and i think sooner or later whatever he's doing, it will all come to light and i just basically wanted to say that I oppose the war and this president. Thank yoU.
>> We'll go ahead and move on to louisville, kentucky. Good morning. Caller: Good morning. I wanted to ponet out that what we're seeing -- point out that we're we're seeing is monday morning quarterbacking. 9-11 did happen. We were invaded and 3,000 to 4,000 people were killed. There's every reason to believe that if those who brought that off could bring it off again would do it, we had no choicE. We had to stop to -- the next event would occur. You have to ask about the fervor of the people in the war and it has to do with the treatment of the israeli situation, the jews have been sucked into a situation where they're die, the palestinians are dying, let's get to the source of the problem. We did have 9-11, people did die, and there are people who would like to pull it off again. We had to react. We couldn't think about we hate war and all that stufF. That's it.
>> I think you'll find that one of the disagreements is, yes, 9-11 was a tragedy becaused by terrorists who had their own sort of ag enda. The question was -- there's been no connection made between saddam hussein and al qaeda and osama bin laden and 9-11, although the administration tried mightly to make that connection. And so you're going to see an argument that going to come forward which is by going into iraq you diverted going after the people who did 9-11, and you made the arab israeli conflict much more difficult, it has now broken apart and that is a result you'll see that some people feel happened because we went into iraq, their view, the view of the bush administration and the policymakers was, a, that if you get rid of saddam hussein, you get rid of the main supporter of the palestinians, and they would be much more likely to come to grips with an agreement with israel, and, secondly, by creating a democracy in the middle the middle east, you would have it spread throughout the area and democracies don't attack each other. It appears that that was a if he lasheus set -- a falasheus set of factors because it has been the opposite. American troops in iraq have drawn terrorist from all around the area, and that -- terrorists from all around the area, and that the so-called road map has been blown up along with everything else, so I think the caller is right that 9-11 was a terrible tragedy, but going into iraq was not a way to solve iT.
>> This email, what do you think about cheney going into the C.I.A. And trying to coerce those guys to give him the information that he wanted to hear?
>> I wrote the story about cheney going after the C.I.A., And as with all of these story, you get two different views, it is unusual for a vice president to go out and speak directly to analysts. I have yet to find an annual hoist was party to that who feels he was -- or she was coerced. If there is one, i would like to talk to him, although people do say. I've talked to people i trust who were at senior levels at the C.I.A. And some people say, in fact, being able to talk directly with the vezz and argue with him -- vice president and argue with him was maybe a good thing. That one again is being lookeD. A as far as ambassador wilson's wife, i wrote a long story about that, because i was called during that period, but the attempt was not to expose his wife, not to take revenge, it was to get me to stop about his trip to africa and they wanted to make it appear as if it was something that she had arranged, she did not arrange it, it did not affect what I was writing, and i let it go bY.
>> Is that a real inside the beltway story or is that a major story?
>> I think when ambassador wilson stood up and said that this could be the commission of a crime, because there is a law against exposing identities of agents, it took a different turn , and it then became something that people looked at, at least in my case it wasn't done for that reason, so i'm not sure that a crime was committed by whoever talked to me, but -- and to be honest, i can't who it was, that's why we didn't write that part of it, but it's -- I'll be interested to see how this thing turns out. It is, again, symbolic, it becomes an issue that people grab on to when you have a crisis like this, it has really torn people apart and they're looking for ways to get at it, and this appears to be a sign of how people believe the administration will do anything to get its way.
>> Next call, a few more minutes left with mr. Pincus, bronx, new york, you're on the aiR. Caller: I posed the war from the beginning. I -- I'm -- first of all, eem a vietnam vet -- first of all, I'm a vietnam vet, I'm disabled, and those of you who support the war, I don't think they've seen the war, they don't know the devastation of war, and i think that the people in iraq, i mean, we wanted to liberate them, but at the same time we have to remember that, you know, a lot of people died. We're talking about civilians, and I think what we did over there was make it fertile ground for terrorists, you know, and if we went in there to erase terrorism or whatever, i think we are on the wrong track and, anyway, good morning.
>> I think people should listen to what the caller said. I think that is a very impressive way to describe it from somebody who's been through it. We were in vietnam, richard helms, the former director of the c.I.A. In his sort of autobiography published after his death made it clear that one of his great concerns was that young americans went into vietnam not speaking the language, not understanding the history, but trying to bring something to that country, that the country wasn't prepared to accept, and it turned into a tragedy. And I think we have to watch out that the same thing doesn't happen again.
>> Last call for walter pincus, iowa. Caller: Good morning. I'm a vietnam vet myselF. I went on r and r while i was in vietnam. Went over to pick up some money from, you know, where the pay masters, when I was leaving, there was a poster on the wall, I'm not sure if it was "life" magazine, but there was a great, big huge crowd. It was leak a two-page picture, a big bonfire in the middle and they had the american flag in the middle of the fire and i went out an threwup. It is 1 thing to protest, but you take something like the american flag and burn it and, to me, that's a travesty, and i just -- i actually got sick, i threw up, and that's all I've got to say.
>> A disputed war, particularly in this country, brings out demonstrations of all types, it's a sad thing to happen. Our country is much better when it is unite and believes in what it's doing. I think one of the ironies having heard now from two vietnam veterans is that we went over to bring democracy and stop communism in that area and vietnam is still run by a communist government and we're living with it.
>> Are you going to baghdad? Have you thought about going to baghdad?
>> I thought about it. The kind of reporting that i do is mainly based here. I used to travel a lot. I haven't done it this time. I may, but I'm not sure what you can do on the ground. What I cover essentially is what happens here, and i think right now certainly over the next year intelligence and political input on intelligence is going to be a major storY.
>> And what should we look for from the senate select committee on intelligence?
>> I -- i -- i understand it, you're not going to look for very much soon. They're still working on it, there is going to be a hearing sometime this fall with george teneT. I think both the house and senate committee and almost everybody is waiting for david kay, the C.I.A. Director's representative in baghdad to come up with what will be as close to a final report, and that has to be in before anybody can truly say whether the intelligence was good, bad, or indifferent. I think one of the issues that still is clear and we wrote about it not before the war, after the war, that is, the issues the democrats make, which is, no matter what the intelligence was in the n.I.E., Did the administration exaggerate it in the runup to the war? That is the past. I think another focus really ought to be how do we look at what post war iraq was going to be and how will we handle it? And that's the story that we should focus on right now.
>> Walter pincus is with "the washington post." Thank you for being with us.
>> You're welcome.
>> I want to update you on where the c-span school buses arE. One bus is in washington. They <
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